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Standard User 23Prince
(fountain of knowledge) Sat 16-Sep-17 13:40:28
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AAISP Launch "GUARANTEED 56M SERVICE"


[link to this post]
 
See here,

https://www.aaisp.net.uk/broadband-56.html

Great News!

http://www.revk.uk/2017/09/who-could-have-predicted-...

Edited by 23Prince (Sat 16-Sep-17 13:43:26)

Standard User RobertoS
(elder) Sat 16-Sep-17 14:20:54
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Re: AAISP Launch "GUARANTEED 56M SERVICE"


[re: 23Prince] [link to this post]
 
As RevK says, all a load of rubbish.

My broadband basic info/help site - www.robertos.me.uk. Domains, site and mail hosting - Tsohost.
Connection - AAISP Home::1 80/20. 200GB. Sync 72313/12530Kbps @ 600m. BQMs - IPv4 & IPv6
Standard User 23Prince
(fountain of knowledge) Mon 18-Sep-17 19:17:45
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Re: AAISP Launch "GUARANTEED 56M SERVICE"


[re: RobertoS] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by RobertoS:
As RevK says, all a load of rubbish.


Yes I didn't know he was taking the [censored] out of Sky. I thought he was an adult, seems rather childish to me and other it seems


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Standard User Realalemadrid
(member) Mon 18-Sep-17 20:21:44
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Re: AAISP Launch "GUARANTEED 56M SERVICE"


[re: 23Prince] [link to this post]
 
He is an adult and has a certain wry sense of humour, poking fun at other ISP's nonsense adverts, on the other hand you just seem to criticise and complain about many ISPs for no particular reasons, which I think is particularly childish.

Edited by Realalemadrid (Mon 18-Sep-17 22:59:38)

ISP Representative RevK
(isp) Tue 19-Sep-17 08:58:23
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Re: AAISP Launch "GUARANTEED 56M SERVICE"


[re: Realalemadrid] [link to this post]
 
Sorry you did not appreciate it - but yes, as it also explains, if you are somewhere with at least a forecast 56Mb handback threshold for FTTC, we are ALREADY guaranteeing 56Mb/s speed on that FTTC, which is the same as Sky do. It is not new. It applies anyway.

The idea of the post it to not just point out how daft the Sky offer is, but to highlight that you already get the same guarantee.

Edited by RevK (Tue 19-Sep-17 09:00:02)

The above post has been made by an ISP REPRESENTATIVE (although not necessarily the ISP being discussed in the post).
Standard User RobertoS
(elder) Tue 19-Sep-17 09:36:31
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Re: AAISP Launch "GUARANTEED 56M SERVICE"


[re: RevK] [link to this post]
 
A couple of days before this thread appeared I was walking the dog and saw a huge billboard Sky advert that gave this guarantee. To me it made no sense at all, as it was clearly ridiculous.

I decided it could only mean the wifi speed/quality. The wording would allow that to be the case. I didn't see any suggestion it was the sync-to-cabinet speed.

Maybe there is more info on their website. I can't be bothered to look.

Completely off topic, thanks for the two allowance increases and £5pm price drop since I joined smile. Not that I need the higher allowances but I expect many do.

My broadband basic info/help site - www.robertos.me.uk. Domains, site and mail hosting - Tsohost.
Connection - AAISP Home::1 80/20. 200GB. Sync 72313/12530Kbps @ 600m. BQMs - IPv4 & IPv6
Standard User Realalemadrid
(member) Tue 19-Sep-17 12:08:48
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Re: AAISP Launch "GUARANTEED 56M SERVICE"


[re: RevK] [link to this post]
 
@RevK not sure you intended to reply to me but I certainly appreciated your ridiculing SKY's advert and your other rants! Unfortunately your humour was not understood by @23prince to whom I was replying.
ISP Representative RevK
(isp) Tue 19-Sep-17 12:35:00
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Re: AAISP Launch "GUARANTEED 56M SERVICE"


[re: Realalemadrid] [link to this post]
 
Possibly I clicked reply in the wrong place - I just wanted to clarify after his comments.

The above post has been made by an ISP REPRESENTATIVE (although not necessarily the ISP being discussed in the post).
Standard User Chrysalis
(legend) Tue 19-Sep-17 12:49:40
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Re: AAISP Launch "GUARANTEED 56M SERVICE"


[re: RevK] [link to this post]
 
maybe sky dont need the handback threshold to be reached, you could be using a lower part of the estimate than sky do? So could be for some customers who might be say 56meg at above the low range (but above the handback threshold) sky will offer the top tier product, if they dont hit 56meg, they will try an engineer to fix it but in that scenario you wouldnt offer it at all as it would be a lower speed on the handback threshold.

I am surprised aaisp use the handback threshold as thats only the bottom 10 percentile. I dont know what sky use now but when I ordered they used higher than the clean low threshold and thats higher then the handback threshold.

I personally dont find it ludicrous, if you dont get that sync speed after an engineer visit then they either refund you or offer a cheaper product, you dont stay locked in on the higher tiered product. Some people will value that.

Edited by Chrysalis (Tue 19-Sep-17 12:50:51)

ISP Representative RevK
(isp) Tue 19-Sep-17 13:00:30
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Re: AAISP Launch "GUARANTEED 56M SERVICE"


[re: Chrysalis] [link to this post]
 
As for handback threshold, I don't actually know for sky, but I think one can test as I think they have a site that will tell you what they guarantee. Maybe someone with an FTTC line can try.

However, the reason I assumed they use the "handback threshold", and that we currently use it and suggested on our page, is simply that this is the threshold we can get BTW to hand back and refund to us with no minimum term or costs other than our own.

I would be surprised if they go beyond that as (a) it is not really needed for their headline marketing message - the exact threshold chosen does not really matter there, and (b) it could cost them money, especially until the 12 month minimum term is dropped by BTW.

I agree 10th percentile is crazy, and I would love to see BT guarantee the speed they actually have as the lowest in their speed estimate range. The used to, and used to even have a clause saying they would actually try and fix the service if it did not meet it (at least try), but now it is just "take it or leave it" at the (lower) handback threshold.

The reason it is ridiculous, regardless of which threshold applies here, is that they are not actually offering anything better than any other ISP in terms of speed of YOUR line. Your line will get what it gets. They won't actually make it get 55Mb/s, and if the estimate is too low by some criteria (i.e. they don't think it will get 55Mb/s) then they won't even try.

This is very different to what people seeing the headline will think - such people will think "I'll go to Sky as they *guarantee* I'll get 55Mb/s - other ISPs don't guarantee that, they are all slower", or some such.

At the end of the day I can't speak for Sky.

The above post has been made by an ISP REPRESENTATIVE (although not necessarily the ISP being discussed in the post).
Standard User 23Prince
(fountain of knowledge) Tue 19-Sep-17 18:10:40
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Re: AAISP Launch "GUARANTEED 56M SERVICE"


[re: Realalemadrid] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by Realalemadrid:
He is an adult and has a certain wry sense of humour, poking fun at other ISP's nonsense adverts, on the other hand you just seem to criticise and complain about many ISPs for no particular reasons, which I think is particularly childish.


Well, the ASA will decide on that - I didn't report the page at https://www.aaisp.net.uk/broadband-56.html but I know a few who did.
Standard User Chrysalis
(legend) Tue 19-Sep-17 18:42:15
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Re: AAISP Launch "GUARANTEED 56M SERVICE"


[re: RevK] [link to this post]
 
Yes the new advertising guidelines have allowed this to happen, whilst I dont think its ridiculous I think its still a situation where people can be misled, but what we dont know yet is if sky will manage to get the lines that fail to meet the 56 meg actually achieving that speed, because as I understand it they will call out an engineer before releasing the customer from the contract and if that engineer does a pair or port swap, or fixes a fault then the line may in that scenario actually sync higher doing what you said wouldnt happen. Openreach do have the capability to improve performance, so its not down to it been impossible but rather convincing openreach to do the work.

My own line e.g. only 2 months ago went from high 60s to over 80 now simply from a tie pair rearrangement at the cabinet.

Now if it turns out that either sky wont even get an engineer (so release from contract straight away) or the engineer visits never achieve anything, then yes you are right in that there is no higher achieved speed.

What was your policy prior to the sky offer is someone ordered 80/20 from you and synced at say 35? would you allow them to downgrade their product or refund without penalty?

Standard User Ignitionnet
(knowledge is power) Tue 19-Sep-17 18:50:35
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Re: AAISP Launch "GUARANTEED 56M SERVICE"


[re: RevK] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by RevK:
As for handback threshold, I don't actually know for sky, but I think one can test as I think they have a site that will tell you what they guarantee. Maybe someone with an FTTC line can try.


They won't let me order Sky Fibre Max. Handback and bottom of clean range too low.

VDSL Range A (Clean) 73.3 54 20 16.7 46.3
Standard User RobertoS
(elder) Tue 19-Sep-17 19:57:42
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Re: AAISP Launch "GUARANTEED 56M SERVICE"


[re: Ignitionnet] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by Ignitionnet:
They won't let me order Sky Fibre Max. Handback and bottom of clean range too low.

VDSL Range A (Clean) 73.3 54 20 16.7 46.3
I won't even look then, else they'll start spamming like VM. But the BTW checker says:-

A (Clean) 60.5 44.1 17.3 11.5 39.8

On 3dB margin I'm sync'ed at 72,313Kbps. At 6dB it is usually well above 60Mbps.

Sky will have few on the "guarantee"!

My broadband basic info/help site - www.robertos.me.uk. Domains, site and mail hosting - Tsohost.
Connection - AAISP Home::1 80/20. 200GB. Sync 72313/12530Kbps @ 600m. BQMs - IPv4 & IPv6
Standard User Ignitionnet
(knowledge is power) Tue 19-Sep-17 21:15:34
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Re: AAISP Launch "GUARANTEED 56M SERVICE"


[re: RobertoS] [link to this post]
 
Yeah interesting how the estimates match up to reality. I'm banded at 55 right now due to interference from PLN, though even without that barely 60 was managed due to masses of crosstalk.

Still solution found so all good.
Standard User RobertoS
(elder) Tue 19-Sep-17 22:14:28
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Re: AAISP Launch "GUARANTEED 56M SERVICE"


[re: Ignitionnet] [link to this post]
 
I do have a very clean/good line from the cabinet to the house. Underground to the pole, and from there renewed with a much higher spec dropline to a new NTE5A a few years ago. Not surprising that I'm near the top of "Clean". As per my spec, line length is 600m. Paced by me, before ordering FTTC, allowing for all the extra bits, and confirmed as ~0.6km on the installing engineer's JDSU.

My broadband basic info/help site - www.robertos.me.uk. Domains, site and mail hosting - Tsohost.
Connection - AAISP Home::1 80/20. 200GB. Sync 72313/12530Kbps @ 600m. BQMs - IPv4 & IPv6
Standard User Ignitionnet
(knowledge is power) Tue 19-Sep-17 23:04:15
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Re: AAISP Launch "GUARANTEED 56M SERVICE"


[re: 23Prince] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by 23Prince:
Well, the ASA will decide on that - I didn't report the page at https://www.aaisp.net.uk/broadband-56.html but I know a few who did.


You must have a... erm... 'interesting' social circle!
Standard User 23Prince
(fountain of knowledge) Wed 20-Sep-17 10:36:28
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Re: AAISP Launch "GUARANTEED 56M SERVICE"


[re: Ignitionnet] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by Ignitionnet:
In reply to a post by 23Prince:
Well, the ASA will decide on that - I didn't report the page at https://www.aaisp.net.uk/broadband-56.html but I know a few who did.


You must have a... erm... 'interesting' social circle!


The guy needs a life, I agree. I never said they were friends, I said I knew of a few people that did.

End of the day - does not affect me.
Administrator MrSaffron
(staff) Wed 20-Sep-17 18:10:25
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Re: AAISP Launch "GUARANTEED 56M SERVICE"


[re: Chrysalis] [link to this post]
 
Nothing in the guarantee that I've read suggests making any particular effort to get Openreach to uplift/boost speeds.

Its a if modem syncs at below the figure of 55 Mbps then you can downgrade and get setup fee refunded or leave.

NOTE Its connection speed/sync speed since its what the modem is reporting so there will be the explanations needed that modem is connecting at 55.8 Mbps but speed tests only show 52.6 Mbps

It is purely a marketing thing, i.e. people think they are getting something others don't offer and is a logical conclusion of the rules around broadband speed in adverts/sales, and is them testing the water for the day when average speeds become the norm in advertising.

The author of the above post is a thinkbroadband staff member. It may not constitute an official statement on behalf of thinkbroadband.
Administrator MrSaffron
(staff) Wed 20-Sep-17 18:12:49
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Re: AAISP Launch "GUARANTEED 56M SERVICE"


[re: RobertoS] [link to this post]
 
Nothing to do with wifi in fact they will not accept any testing over Ethernet or WiFi if you claim the guarantee is not being met, they want connection speed from router

Dug around as soon as the TV adverts appeared.

The author of the above post is a thinkbroadband staff member. It may not constitute an official statement on behalf of thinkbroadband.
Standard User nemeth782
(committed) Thu 21-Sep-17 08:28:55
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Re: AAISP Launch "GUARANTEED 56M SERVICE"


[re: RevK] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by RevK:
Sorry you did not appreciate it - but yes, as it also explains, if you are somewhere with at least a forecast 56Mb handback threshold for FTTC, we are ALREADY guaranteeing 56Mb/s speed on that FTTC, which is the same as Sky do. It is not new. It applies anyway.

The idea of the post it to not just point out how daft the Sky offer is, but to highlight that you already get the same guarantee.


This is not what Sky are doing.

If I do a BT Wholesale check at this address:

https://imgur.com/hz88j45

(Which is not my house, I just checked around until I found one in the speed range)

Sky will sell me Sky Fibre Max with the 55mbit guarantee.

https://imgur.com/N3tf6WR

So, it seems that your assumption that they were doing this based on the handback threshold is wrong, as the handback threshold here is 44.6Mbps. They are taking the risk that if I cancel they will incur a hefty fee.

By your policy, you could only "guarantee" me 44.6Mbps at this address whereas Sky will guarantee 55.

If, for example, I was on ADSL2+ here, I might decide the extra money for fibre is worth it for 55mbit, but not 45mbit, In that case, the Sky offering is excellent for me, as while no other provider will do better, I can go back to ADSL2+ if it does not achieve the desired result.
ISP Representative RevK
(isp) Thu 21-Sep-17 08:31:53
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Re: AAISP Launch "GUARANTEED 56M SERVICE"


[re: nemeth782] [link to this post]
 
Thanks for checking, I will update my blog.

However, sky will not make your line do 55Mb/s if it does not. That is my main point here. If it does 55Mb/s for Sky, it would for any ISP, and if not, then it won't for any ISP.

The above post has been made by an ISP REPRESENTATIVE (although not necessarily the ISP being discussed in the post).
Standard User nemeth782
(committed) Thu 21-Sep-17 08:36:15
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Re: AAISP Launch "GUARANTEED 56M SERVICE"


[re: RevK] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by RevK:
Thanks for checking, I will update my blog.

However, sky will not make your line do 55Mb/s if it does not. That is my main point here. If it does 55Mb/s for Sky, it would for any ISP, and if not, then it won't for any ISP.


Oh yes, you're entirely right, and as you've said before any system of broadband speed advertising is a massive can of worms. "Average speeds" mean that the best way to do it is to have a separate (identical) product at every mbit speed tier, only advertise the 80mbit one, then on order say "Sorry, you can't get our 80mbit product, but we can offer you our 50mbit one" or whatever.

I just felt the sky claim worth some further investigation wink
ISP Representative RevK
(isp) Thu 21-Sep-17 08:39:21
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Re: AAISP Launch "GUARANTEED 56M SERVICE"


[re: nemeth782] [link to this post]
 
Indeed, thanks for being so thorough. I should have done the same before posting. I may have to look in to how many lines fall in the gap and consider offering a similar "guarantee" ourselves at some point. I'm certainly prepared to consider in an individual basis if someone asks.

The above post has been made by an ISP REPRESENTATIVE (although not necessarily the ISP being discussed in the post).
Standard User nemeth782
(committed) Thu 21-Sep-17 08:49:07
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Re: AAISP Launch "GUARANTEED 56M SERVICE"


[re: RevK] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by RevK:
Indeed, thanks for being so thorough. I should have done the same before posting. I may have to look in to how many lines fall in the gap and consider offering a similar "guarantee" ourselves at some point. I'm certainly prepared to consider in an individual basis if someone asks.


Actually, given your policy of never being the bottleneck, which you are better at than any other ISP, and your tenacity with fault resolution, you could probably just offer a blanket guarantee of "No BT FTTC based ISP will EVER give you a better speed than us".
Standard User RobertoS
(elder) Thu 21-Sep-17 10:48:51
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Re: AAISP Launch "GUARANTEED 56M SERVICE"


[re: nemeth782] [link to this post]
 
I don't think you can guarantee that, nemeth. Sky or TalkTalk could if they wished, as they have control of the Openreach line profile stability settings, and they do not have the BT Wholesale IP Profile system in between. They only need to restrict traffic to the sync speed.

Unless if course you mean BT Wholesale based ISP. It is important these days to specify which part of BT one means. Most people don't use the words "Openreach' or BTW when they mean them. It causes a lot of misunderstanding.

My broadband basic info/help site - www.robertos.me.uk. Domains, site and mail hosting - Tsohost.
Connection - AAISP Home::1 80/20. 200GB. Sync 72313/12530Kbps @ 600m. BQMs - IPv4 & IPv6
Administrator MrSaffron
(staff) Thu 21-Sep-17 12:05:47
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Re: AAISP Launch "GUARANTEED 56M SERVICE"


[re: RobertoS] [link to this post]
 
Plus with low noise margins the variation between modem side of routers will be more of a factor, even beyond the G.INP and Vectoring option

Also might end up down a rabbit hole where there was less crosstalk when user was with ISP Y but now six months later and with ISP Z the crosstalk is having more of an impact and vectoring not available from the cabinet

The author of the above post is a thinkbroadband staff member. It may not constitute an official statement on behalf of thinkbroadband.
Standard User Chrysalis
(legend) Fri 22-Sep-17 02:43:54
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Re: AAISP Launch "GUARANTEED 56M SERVICE"


[re: Ignitionnet] [link to this post]
 
thanks for the info, that is useful, so its possible sky are using the handback for this. Or ,maybe not after reading nemeth's post. smile

Edited by Chrysalis (Fri 22-Sep-17 02:54:12)

Standard User Chrysalis
(legend) Fri 22-Sep-17 02:50:42
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Re: AAISP Launch "GUARANTEED 56M SERVICE"


[re: RevK] [link to this post]
 
Assuming sky dont bother with an engineer or the engineer fails to do anything useful, then I would actually say aaisp is more likely to achieve the speeds smile than sky as you guys use the speed openreach DLM profile whilst sky uses standard, so DLM is more likely to take stability action on a sky connection which of course reduces sync speed.

This approach from sky is interesting because previously sky would accept faults when throughput was below the guaranteed speed, on the older pro product (one I am on), but this new marketing is just for sync speed only.

RevK I think you should make all home FTTC products one month commitment only like you do on ADSL, that completely outdoes what sky are offering and you should be able to do it now openreach have reduced the wholesale commitment to one month only.

ISP Representative RevK
(isp) Fri 22-Sep-17 06:31:40
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Re: AAISP Launch "GUARANTEED 56M SERVICE"


[re: Chrysalis] [link to this post]
 
BTW are dropping the 12 months commit on FTTC in January, and we expect to be able to offer FTTC on one month term from then.

The above post has been made by an ISP REPRESENTATIVE (although not necessarily the ISP being discussed in the post).
Standard User nemeth782
(committed) Fri 22-Sep-17 09:21:51
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Re: AAISP Launch "GUARANTEED 56M SERVICE"


[re: RobertoS] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by RobertoS:
I don't think you can guarantee that, nemeth. Sky or TalkTalk could if they wished, as they have control of the Openreach line profile stability settings, and they do not have the BT Wholesale IP Profile system in between. They only need to restrict traffic to the sync speed.

Unless if course you mean BT Wholesale based ISP. It is important these days to specify which part of BT one means. Most people don't use the words "Openreach' or BTW when they mean them. It causes a lot of misunderstanding.


True, I hadn't considered line profile settings, or indeed differences in VDSL chipset performance, although AAISP also use TT Wholesale, so may have control over some of these settings as well on some lines.
Standard User RobertoS
(elder) Fri 22-Sep-17 10:21:34
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Re: AAISP Launch "GUARANTEED 56M SERVICE"


[re: nemeth782] [link to this post]
 
Yep.

My broadband basic info/help site - www.robertos.me.uk. Domains, site and mail hosting - Tsohost.
Connection - AAISP Home::1 80/20. 200GB. Sync 72313/12530Kbps @ 600m. BQMs - IPv4 & IPv6
Standard User 23Prince
(fountain of knowledge) Fri 22-Sep-17 21:39:21
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Re: AAISP Launch "GUARANTEED 56M SERVICE"


[re: RevK] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by RevK:
BTW are dropping the 12 months commit on FTTC in January, and we expect to be able to offer FTTC on one month term from then.


That's great news. This would interest me. Other ISP's do this with higher upfront costs -and it seems to work well.

Although I have to ask , as they can do it on TTB FTTC already, Why can't you? (Pulse8 is the one I think of when I say the above)

Edited by 23Prince (Fri 22-Sep-17 21:40:06)

Standard User nemeth782
(committed) Mon 25-Sep-17 22:01:06
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Re: AAISP Launch "GUARANTEED 56M SERVICE"


[re: 23Prince] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by 23Prince:
In reply to a post by RevK:
BTW are dropping the 12 months commit on FTTC in January, and we expect to be able to offer FTTC on one month term from then.


That's great news. This would interest me. Other ISP's do this with higher upfront costs -and it seems to work well.

Although I have to ask , as they can do it on TTB FTTC already, Why can't you? (Pulse8 is the one I think of when I say the above)


Other ISPs that do this are currently "taking on risk" that most people who do this will keep it for 12m+, and pricing in to recover the losses from any that don't over multiple lines.

For whatever reason, AAISP tend not to work like this, and try to make sure they don't have any (or only very few) "loss making" customers, and that everything is "fair". This also seems to be why they don't offer "unlimited" speeds. They might well actually make more money overall doing this, as many people would feel reassured by "unlimited", come over, and use less than 1TB anyway. However they would get at least a few that would do 10TB a month, and even though this may (or may not) be offset by the increase in users, it's not the way AAISP operate.

It does make a kind of sense, and in many ways is more honest, it just depends if that's what you want I guess.

Personally I'd love to be with AAISP, but they can't offer the speeds Virgin can offer me, and the drop in "quality" is something I've accepted for raw speed and volume of downloads.

I do use them for my VoIP number though, as I don't have a landline with VM. smile
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