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Standard User youngsyp
(committed) Fri 28-Sep-18 23:04:18
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Rate cap?


[link to this post]
 
Hi,

I've been switched over to AA, as of about 4am this morning and it was way more seamless and prompt than the last ISP change, so a good start. However, the line won't sync at more than about 46Mb/s when the attainable is 55Mb/s on the downstream. Could this be due to a rate cap on the line? It would set at 55Mb/s consistently with the previous ISP.

I hadn't appreciated that G.INP would not be enabled on the new line, so I expect latency to reduce, back to the levels I'm used to when it does kick in.

Paul

ISP: IDNet
Service: FTTC Unlimited (55/10)
Exchange: EMSILVE
Cabinet: 4
DSLAM: Huawei
Modem/ router: Billion BiPAC 8800AXL
Attenuation: 21.7
Current sync: 55000/ 9875
G.INP: Enabled
Standard User RobertoS
(elder) Fri 28-Sep-18 23:44:18
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Re: Rate cap?


[re: youngsyp] [link to this post]
 
Latency and sync speed are not related in any significant way.

The most probable explanation is that you have upgraded from a 55/10 Openreach product to the 80/20 one. This resets DLM, but with interleaving and no G.INP.

That would sort itself out within 2-3 days as long as you haven't done a large number of re-syncs to try to improve things. Just leave it connected.

The 46 actual v 55 attainable does suggest interleaving.

There are no speed caps on AAISP at all. There isn't even a product option below the Openreach 80/20 product.

Did you take your landline to them as well, and which initial allowance did you choose?

Your sig and profile are now out of date wink.

My broadband basic info/help site - www.robertos.me.uk. Domains, site and mail hosting - Tsohost.
Connection - AAISP Home::1 80/20. 200GB. Sync 72623/13368Kbps @ 600m. BQMs - IPv4 & IPv6
===================================================
If you never think of something off the wall, you'll never think of anything original.

Edited by RobertoS (Fri 28-Sep-18 23:46:29)

Standard User j0hn83
(experienced) Sat 29-Sep-18 01:40:36
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Re: Rate cap?


[re: youngsyp] [link to this post]
 
New line activations start with interleaving and INP=3 (low interleaving).
The max attainable is exaggerated with interleaving.

Interleaving also takes roughly 10% of the sync speed so you will probably sync about 51-52Mb when G.INP activates.
If DLM chooses to lower the target SNRM to 3dB you could get nearer 60Mb.

How much extra you get from the change to 3dB target SNRM varies for every line. Lines that make use of the D3 band benefit the most in my experience.

Stability is the key for the first 2 weeks of you want the target SNRM lowered so try not to resync or change modems a lot.


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Standard User WilliamGrimsley
(experienced) Sat 29-Sep-18 12:52:02
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Re: Rate cap?


[re: j0hn83] [link to this post]
 
Agree with the above replies, just don't expect interleaving to be replaced with G.INP quickly, it can take weeks, in some cases.

William Grimsley.
Standard User lexden16
(committed) Sat 29-Sep-18 16:06:37
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Re: Rate cap?


[re: WilliamGrimsley] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by WilliamGrimsley:
Agree with the above replies, just don't expect interleaving to be replaced with G.INP quickly, it can take weeks, in some cases.


Out of interest, any idea why it takes so long? I ask because I have been with AAISP for about 6 weeks and my max attainable is falling as more adjacent plots are connected to FTTC.
Standard User WilliamGrimsley
(experienced) Sat 29-Sep-18 18:14:52
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Re: Rate cap?


[re: lexden16] [link to this post]
 
I've no idea. The time it takes to activate is random, as in there's no set time. I think some of it is down to how noisy the line is (amount of FECs (as G.INP activates only when INP+FEC is on)).

William Grimsley.

Edited by WilliamGrimsley (Sat 29-Sep-18 18:15:26)

Standard User j0hn83
(experienced) Sat 29-Sep-18 23:15:31
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Re: Rate cap?


[re: lexden16] [link to this post]
 
99% of lines on Huawei cabinets have G.INP activated within 2-3 days.
The majority also try a lower target SNRM within the first week.

It is the odd exception that can take considerably longer. My own line took around 11 weeks to apply G.INP.

Back near the start of the G.INP rollout there was an average of 3-4 week wait for G.INP on new lines but that isn't the case now.
Standard User youngsyp
(committed) Mon 01-Oct-18 13:01:42
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Re: Rate cap?


[re: youngsyp] [link to this post]
 
Thanks for the responses.

I was indeed interleaved, which I should have mentioned and what I should have also asked, was whether the service was banded, not capped. I blame the sleep deprevation from having a 9 week old!

The line had G.INP enabled the following day and after 1 or 2 resyncs (Lost Carrier), has been climbing back up to nigh on the max I've seen on the line, sync wise. The upstream sync is also the highest it's been since the line initially settled down after being fibre enabled.
Latency has increased from around 11ms to 16ms to www.bbc.co.uk, my usual benchmark. So I'd like to understand why that's happened.

I'm monitoring it for a separate gateway related issue but it seens to be more resiliant than before, despite some choppiness on the SNRM. Maybe that's because i'm now going via TTB backhaul and not BTW?!

Thus far I'm very impressed with AA. Bearing in mind when I migrated, I chose the 2TB package and as of today, I have 2.98TB of capacity, which just adds the icing on the cake.

The control panel is excellent too, meaning I no longer feel the need for the TB BQM. And the listed view of occurences on the service and account. Now I just need them to sort out the log running line issue!

Paul

ISP: AAISP
Service: TT FTTC 80/20 (2TB)
Exchange: EMSILVE
Cabinet: 4
DSLAM: Huawei
Modem/ router: Billion BiPAC 8800AXL R2
Attenuation: 22.2
Current sync: 54623/ 9366
G.INP: Enabled

Edited by youngsyp (Mon 01-Oct-18 13:06:57)

Standard User WilliamGrimsley
(experienced) Mon 01-Oct-18 16:52:33
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Re: Rate cap?


[re: youngsyp] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by youngsyp:
Thanks for the responses.

No worries!
In reply to a post by youngsyp:
Latency has increased from around 11ms to 16ms to www.bbc.co.uk, my usual benchmark. So I'd like to understand why that's happened.

It could potentially be because the route in which your connection takes between the CPE (router/modem combo) and the ISP has become "longer", as in there are more hops (IP addresses of different routers through the network), or because the distance those hops are from you, have increased. You can prove this by pasting a tracert to bbc.co.uk.

William Grimsley.

Edited by WilliamGrimsley (Mon 01-Oct-18 16:56:17)

Standard User RobertoS
(elder) Tue 02-Oct-18 00:36:49
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Re: Rate cap?


[re: youngsyp] [link to this post]
 
The base latency on AA, and every ISP I've been with, can vary depending on which route your connection is taking from the exchange to the ISP's gateways. This route is established when the PPP session is initiated. Sometimes from where I am they seem to route via Edinburgh or somewhere like that, other times to head directly south from Manchester.

My best with AA has been 11-12ms and that is my most common. Occasionally I get a higher one of 16-20ms, as at the moment. (Live BQMs in my sig).

It doesn't really affect me much, though complex pages load a bit slower. I don't game, where it could be important.

With some routers and modem/routers you can drop the PPP session and start another. Best left for a while before restarting. Some other routers you may need to reboot or even power off for several minutes to clear the session. With modem/routers where you can't drop the PPP session you have to be wary of upsetting DLM by re-sync'ing too much.

My broadband basic info/help site - www.robertos.me.uk. Domains, site and mail hosting - Tsohost.
Connection - AAISP Home::1 80/20. 200GB. Sync 01/10/18 - 71908/13506Kbps @ 600m. BQMs - IPv4 & IPv6
===================================================
If you never think of anything off the wall, you'll never think of anything original.
Standard User youngsyp
(committed) Tue 02-Oct-18 14:24:25
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Re: Rate cap?


[re: youngsyp] [link to this post]
 
Below is the tracert from here:

1 <1 ms <1 ms <1 ms home.gateway.home.gateway [192.168.1.254]
2 16 ms 15 ms 16 ms bottomless.aa.net.uk [81.187.81.187]
3 16 ms 16 ms 16 ms n.aimless.thn.aa.net.uk [90.155.53.104]
4 17 ms 16 ms 16 ms rt-lonap-b.thdo.bbc.co.uk [5.57.80.90]
5 * * * Request timed out.
6 * * * Request timed out.
7 16 ms 17 ms 16 ms ae0.er01.telhc.bbc.co.uk [132.185.254.109]
8 18 ms 18 ms 18 ms 132.185.255.148
9 17 ms 17 ms 16 ms www.bbc.co.uk [212.58.244.68]

As you guys have said, it has to be the routing that AA use. IDNet were consistently 10ms, so I must have been in a favourable location for their gateways.

I am a gamer but I'm not kidding myself that at my age, 6ms will make the difference to my gaming experience. It's just a case of "this is what I had, and this what now have".

In other news, G.INP has now applied to my upstream, so my intermittent line issue is making itself known.

Paul

Paul

ISP: AAISP
Service: HOME::1 FTTC (TTB) 80/20 (2TB)
Exchange: EMSILVE
Cabinet: 4
DSLAM: Huawei
Modem/ router: Billion BiPAC 8800AXL R2
Attenuation: 22.2
Current sync: 54623/ 9366
G.INP: Enabled
Standard User WilliamGrimsley
(experienced) Tue 02-Oct-18 15:50:13
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Re: Rate cap?


[re: youngsyp] [link to this post]
 
Yes, I can't see anything that stands out there. Interesting that you mention about G.INP on Upstream, because my line has had it almost all of the time its been live. My line is noisy, but apparently it's not faulty. What's this "intermittent line issue" you speak about? wink

William Grimsley.

Edited by WilliamGrimsley (Tue 02-Oct-18 15:51:16)

ISP Representative andrewhearn
(isp) Wed 03-Oct-18 08:40:20
Print Post

Re: Rate cap?


[re: youngsyp] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by youngsyp:
Below is the tracert from here:

1 <1 ms <1 ms <1 ms home.gateway.home.gateway [192.168.1.254]
2 16 ms 15 ms 16 ms bottomless.aa.net.uk [81.187.81.187]
3 16 ms 16 ms 16 ms n.aimless.thn.aa.net.uk [90.155.53.104]
4 17 ms 16 ms 16 ms rt-lonap-b.thdo.bbc.co.uk [5.57.80.90]
5 * * * Request timed out.
6 * * * Request timed out.
7 16 ms 17 ms 16 ms ae0.er01.telhc.bbc.co.uk [132.185.254.109]
8 18 ms 18 ms 18 ms 132.185.255.148
9 17 ms 17 ms 16 ms www.bbc.co.uk [212.58.244.68]

As you guys have said, it has to be the routing that AA use. IDNet were consistently 10ms, so I must have been in a favourable location for their gateways.

I am a gamer but I'm not kidding myself that at my age, 6ms will make the difference to my gaming experience. It's just a case of "this is what I had, and this what now have".

In other news, G.INP has now applied to my upstream, so my intermittent line issue is making itself known.


I've not looked at your line, but email in if you had lower latency before- we may be able to reset DLM etc - depending on the service you have, openreach may have automatically applied low error correction when the line moved over, which adds 8ms. DLM may well remove this automatically at some point though.

Andrew Hearn
GM, AAISP
aa.net.uk support@aa.net.uk 033 33 400 999
The above post has been made by an ISP REPRESENTATIVE (although not necessarily the ISP being discussed in the post).
Standard User WilliamGrimsley
(experienced) Wed 03-Oct-18 10:37:49
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Re: Rate cap?


[re: andrewhearn] [link to this post]
 
His line has G.INP not interleaving.

William Grimsley.
Standard User RobertoS
(elder) Wed 03-Oct-18 10:48:41
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Re: Rate cap?


[re: WilliamGrimsley] [link to this post]
 
I think both Andrew and yourself are wrong.

G.INP always applies a low level of interleaving on Bearer 0, normally depth 8. But the “delay” parameter is set to zero. It does not add to latency. Unlike non-G.INP where when interleaving is ON the minimum “delay” setting is 8ms and often more.

Irrelevant to this discussion, on G.INP Bearer 1 also has interleaving, depth 3.

My broadband basic info/help site - www.robertos.me.uk. Domains, site and mail hosting - Tsohost.
Connection - AAISP Home::1 80/20. 200GB. Sync 01/10/18 - 71908/13506Kbps @ 600m. BQMs - IPv4 & IPv6
==================================================
If you never think of anything off the wall, you'll never think of anything original.
Standard User WilliamGrimsley
(experienced) Wed 03-Oct-18 18:20:49
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Re: Rate cap?


[re: RobertoS] [link to this post]
 
Yes, you're right and sorry that I didn't make myself clear. What I meant by "interleaving" is when it applies delay as well e.g. Interleaving+INP+Delay. Whereas, G.INP is just G.INP+Interleaving.

Normally, when a VDSL line is considered "interleaved", it doesn't have G.INP e.g. when a line has say a downstream interleaver depth of 763 and an INP of 3.00, instead of when G.INP is active, when the interleaver depth could be 8 with an INP of 48.00, but without say a delay of 8, which is, as you said, set when interleaving is active without G.INP.

William Grimsley.

Edited by WilliamGrimsley (Wed 03-Oct-18 18:28:01)

Standard User youngsyp
(committed) Thu 04-Oct-18 11:01:28
Print Post

Re: Rate cap?


[re: andrewhearn] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by andrewhearn:
I've not looked at your line, but email in if you had lower latency before- we may be able to reset DLM etc - depending on the service you have, openreach may have automatically applied low error correction when the line moved over, which adds 8ms. DLM may well remove this automatically at some point though.
Thanks Andrew, I'll ping a mail across.


To the point on whether it's interleaving or G.INP causing the increase in latency or not - I had G.INP on the downstream when I was with IDNet and the ping to the beeb was 10 or 11ms. I don't have details of the route it took though, unfortunately. As wsa pointed out above, I think it's simply a case of the route being longer with the current provider.

Paul

ISP: AAISP
Service: HOME::1 FTTC (TTB) 80/20 (2TB)
Exchange: EMSILVE
Cabinet: 4
DSLAM: Huawei
Modem/ router: Billion BiPAC 8800AXL R2
Attenuation: 22.2
Current sync: 54623/ 9366
G.INP: Enabled
Standard User youngsyp
(committed) Thu 04-Oct-18 11:16:42
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Re: Rate cap?


[re: WilliamGrimsley] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by WilliamGrimsley:
What's this "intermittent line issue" you speak about? wink
Early on in my FTTC tenure, a 'battery contact' fault was diagnosed on my line. When the OR engineer came out, he found a dodgy joint in a piece of aluminium cable connecting two poles, down the road. The symptoms of this fault were US sync nose diving from circa 9Mb/s to 1.5Mb/s and a large variance on the US SNRM. Some of the higher frequency US bins would also either not be present at all or diminish quickly over time.

The current intermittent fault exhibits the exact same characteristics to the last one but, the drop in sync and low US rate on re-sync occurs much less often. US bins diminishing and spiky US SNRM are as frequent though. The former not so now G.INP is enabled on the US.
When the US SNRM gets very spiky, I've also checked the line with an analogue phone and it was VERY noisy. Not something I've experienced at any other time.

I'm not keen to request an engineer visit this time as it was only due to the tenacity of the last OR engineer that he found an issue with the line. Not being able to guaruntee the same guy this time and the fact that whoever turns will not have access to the notes from the last issue, just makes it more likely than not to cost me money and not have anything rectified.

Paul

ISP: AAISP
Service: HOME::1 FTTC (TTB) 80/20 (2TB)
Exchange: EMSILVE
Cabinet: 4
DSLAM: Huawei
Modem/ router: Billion BiPAC 8800AXL R2
Attenuation: 22.2
Current sync: 54623/ 9366
G.INP: Enabled
Standard User jelv
(knowledge is power) Thu 04-Oct-18 12:39:18
Print Post

Re: Rate cap?


[re: youngsyp] [link to this post]
 
Is the analogue phone noisy all the time? Have you confirmed using a second wired handset? If so report it as a fault to your line rental supplier.

jelv

AAISP November 2016
(Previous ISP Plusnet November 2001 to October 2016) Why I left Plusnet
Telephone rental: Pulse8
Standard User WilliamGrimsley
(experienced) Thu 04-Oct-18 13:02:32
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Re: Rate cap?


[re: youngsyp] [link to this post]
 
Interesting. I wouldn't expect G.INP to reduce the spikiness, but instead reduce the amount of errors. It has to be said though, that even G.INP isn't of much help when there's a fault.

William Grimsley.
Standard User WilliamGrimsley
(experienced) Thu 04-Oct-18 13:03:14
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Re: Rate cap?


[re: jelv] [link to this post]
 
Yes, but first the OP must make sure that the analogue phone is connected to the test socket with no other equipment connected, first.

William Grimsley.

Edited by WilliamGrimsley (Thu 04-Oct-18 13:03:33)

ISP Representative andrewhearn
(isp) Fri 05-Oct-18 08:41:40
Print Post

Re: Rate cap?


[re: youngsyp] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by youngsyp:
In reply to a post by andrewhearn:
I've not looked at your line, but email in if you had lower latency before- we may be able to reset DLM etc - depending on the service you have, openreach may have automatically applied low error correction when the line moved over, which adds 8ms. DLM may well remove this automatically at some point though.
Thanks Andrew, I'll ping a mail across.


To the point on whether it's interleaving or G.INP causing the increase in latency or not - I had G.INP on the downstream when I was with IDNet and the ping to the beeb was 10 or 11ms. I don't have details of the route it took though, unfortunately. As wsa pointed out above, I think it's simply a case of the route being longer with the current provider.

Paul


No, the route from us to BBC, as shown in the traceroute above, is 1ms, there is 16ms between the OP's router and us.

Andrew Hearn
GM, AAISP
aa.net.uk support@aa.net.uk 033 33 400 999
The above post has been made by an ISP REPRESENTATIVE (although not necessarily the ISP being discussed in the post).
Standard User youngsyp
(committed) Fri 05-Oct-18 09:55:02
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Re: Rate cap?


[re: jelv] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by jelv:
Is the analogue phone noisy all the time? Have you confirmed using a second wired handset? If so report it as a fault to your line rental supplier.
No, it's not noisy all the time. If it was, the fault would be much easier to prove as it would show up on the ISP's tests consistently.
The time when I managed to catch it and listen to the noise, I stayed on and also caught it when it went quiet again. It was like a switch had be pressed.

I reported it to IDNet when I was with them and they stated it was on my side of the demarcation point. That resulted in changing the CPE 3 times, with no change. Changing the modem cable 3 times, with no change. Changing NTE and filter twice, with no change. Re-wiring from when the overhead line attaches to the house, to the NTE socket. Again, no change. I have nothing on my side of the NTE except a 1m modem cable and the CPE. I'm even running to the NTE test socket directly now, and the issue is still apparent sporadically, and therein is the issue with reporting it and capturing it with the ISP tests.

So I'm not going to buy another analogue phone to confirm what the current one I have, and DSLStats is telling me.

Paul

ISP: AAISP
Service: HOME::1 FTTC (TTB) 80/20 (2TB)
Exchange: EMSILVE
Cabinet: 4
DSLAM: Huawei
Modem/ router: Billion BiPAC 8800AXL R2
Attenuation: 22.2
Current sync: 54623/ 9366
G.INP: Enabled

Edited by youngsyp (Fri 05-Oct-18 10:07:26)

Standard User youngsyp
(committed) Fri 05-Oct-18 09:57:38
Print Post

Re: Rate cap?


[re: WilliamGrimsley] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by WilliamGrimsley:
Yes, but first the OP must make sure that the analogue phone is connected to the test socket with no other equipment connected, first.
Yes, obviously.

Paul

ISP: AAISP
Service: HOME::1 FTTC (TTB) 80/20 (2TB)
Exchange: EMSILVE
Cabinet: 4
DSLAM: Huawei
Modem/ router: Billion BiPAC 8800AXL R2
Attenuation: 22.2
Current sync: 54623/ 9366
G.INP: Enabled
Standard User WilliamGrimsley
(experienced) Fri 05-Oct-18 11:28:53
Print Post

Re: Rate cap?


[re: youngsyp] [link to this post]
 
No offence, but it may not be obvious to others.

William Grimsley.
Standard User youngsyp
(committed) Mon 08-Oct-18 13:10:52
Print Post

Re: Rate cap?


[re: youngsyp] [link to this post]
 
Just to keep this updated:
DLM is continuing to 'train' my line and sync rates are now as per my signature. Interestingly (to me), the DS SNRM target is being 'driven' down by DLM to get the sync rate up so as the very helpful AA support stated, it must be happy with the line conditions. Not wanting to jinx it but I checked DSLStats when I noticed the new line rate and it's bee perfectly flat for hours. Not even a 0.1dB fluctuation.


So it's fair to say I'm yet another (very) happy AA customer.

Paul

ISP: AAISP
Service: HOME::1 FTTC (TTB) 80/20 (2TB)
Exchange: EMSILVE
Cabinet: 4
DSLAM: Huawei
Modem/ router: Billion BiPAC 8800AXL R2
Attenuation: 22.2
Current sync: 62153/ 10188
G.INP: Enabled (DS & US)
Standard User RobertoS
(elder) Mon 08-Oct-18 13:44:23
Print Post

Re: Rate cap?


[re: youngsyp] [link to this post]
 
(Point of information)
DLM is permanently active and potentially re-training on Openreach FTTC smile. As is also the case on BT Wholesale ADSLx.

The "re-training" on both is happening in the true sense of training communications lines. The modems at each end communicating to establish a sustainable sync speed when you start a connection is called training.

It is nothing to do with the mythical 10-day "training period" BT Wholesale persists in confusing people with, which simply detects the lowest connection speed in the first ten days (MSR = Maximum Stable Rate) and recording 80% of that as being the FTR (Fault Threshold Rate).

If your line starts performing well below the norm, but is above the FTR, BTW simply aren't interested. Perhaps they also apply this to FTTC.

My broadband basic info/help site - www.robertos.me.uk. Domains, site and mail hosting - Tsohost.
Connection - AAISP Home::1 80/20. 200GB. Sync 01/10/18 - 71908/13506Kbps @ 600m. BQMs - IPv4 & IPv6
==================================================
If you never think of anything off the wall, you'll never think of anything original.

Edited by RobertoS (Mon 08-Oct-18 13:47:53)

Standard User youngsyp
(committed) Mon 08-Oct-18 14:27:02
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Re: Rate cap?


[re: youngsyp] [link to this post]
 
I just realised that I didn't add a salient number to my last post, that of the DS SNRM, which is currently 3.4dB.
My understanding of 6dB being the target SNRM for OR FTTC seems to no be the case at all!

Paul

ISP: AAISP
Service: HOME::1 FTTC (TTB) 80/20 (2TB)
Exchange: EMSILVE
Cabinet: 4
DSLAM: Huawei
Modem/ router: Billion BiPAC 8800AXL R2
Attenuation: 22.2
Current sync: 62153/ 10188
G.INP: Enabled (DS & US)
Standard User RobertoS
(elder) Mon 08-Oct-18 17:38:48
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Re: Rate cap?


[re: youngsyp] [link to this post]
 
The default on first connection is (or was) 6dB. The OR DLM can over time reduce it in (officially) 1dB steps as low as 3dB if the line is stable. The change is normally retained on a re-sync.

Of course it can fluctuate around the sync-time margin whilst connected. That's what it's for smile.

I have very strong suspicion there is now also a 3.5dB setting in the DLM. I have several times had sync's that appeared to be stable at that level even given more than one forced re-sync at appropriate times.

My broadband basic info/help site - www.robertos.me.uk. Domains, site and mail hosting - Tsohost.
Connection - AAISP Home::1 80/20. 200GB. Sync 01/10/18 - 71908/13506Kbps @ 600m. BQMs - IPv4 & IPv6
==================================================
If you never think of anything off the wall, you'll never think of anything original.
Standard User youngsyp
(committed) Wed 10-Oct-18 11:37:11
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Re: Rate cap?


[re: RobertoS] [link to this post]
 
I've had another couple of early hour re-syncs since the last post and the line looks to have settled with a 4dB target SNRM now, holding with 0.1dB variations.

I'm going to try the AA provided ZyXel CPE at the weekend, just to see how it performs.

I'm still not convinced my intermittent issue has resolved itself but I have to admit the line is very stable since moving to AA. I'll hold full judgement until the weather starts to get more inclement though.

Paul

ISP: AAISP
Service: HOME::1 FTTC (TTB) 80/20 (2TB)
Exchange: EMSILVE
Cabinet: 4
DSLAM: Huawei
Modem/ router: Billion BiPAC 8800AXL R2
Attenuation: 22.2
Current sync: 59411/ 10211
G.INP: Enabled (DS & US)
Standard User WilliamGrimsley
(experienced) Thu 11-Oct-18 16:57:41
Print Post

Re: Rate cap?


[re: RobertoS] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by RobertoS:
I have very strong suspicion there is now also a 3.5dB setting in the DLM. I have several times had sync's that appeared to be stable at that level even given more than one forced re-sync at appropriate times.

Yeah, that's because of G.INP overheads - 3 dB + 0.5 db for the overheads.

William Grimsley.

Edited by WilliamGrimsley (Thu 11-Oct-18 16:58:40)

Standard User RobertoS
(elder) Thu 11-Oct-18 16:59:52
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Re: Rate cap?


[re: WilliamGrimsley] [link to this post]
 
I don't know what in my post you are referring to, but whatever it is, nope! It isn't.

My broadband basic info/help site - www.robertos.me.uk. Domains, site and mail hosting - Tsohost.
Connection - AAISP Home::1 80/20. 200GB. Sync 01/10/18 - 71908/13506Kbps @ 600m. BQMs - IPv4 & IPv6
==================================================
If you never think of anything off the wall, you'll never think of anything original.
Standard User WilliamGrimsley
(experienced) Thu 11-Oct-18 17:54:56
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Re: Rate cap?


[re: RobertoS] [link to this post]
 
It definitely is, think about it! Why would there be a 3.5 dB target SNRM? What evidence do you have to prove that this may be the case? Has it been officially announced? Nope! A line with G.INP doesn't sync bang on x.0 dB, there's always a few .x for overheads (depending on the interleaver depth and INP level etc.)

William Grimsley.

Edited by WilliamGrimsley (Thu 11-Oct-18 17:56:31)

Standard User Realalemadrid
(member) Thu 11-Oct-18 18:28:01
Print Post

Re: Rate cap?


[re: WilliamGrimsley] [link to this post]
 
Overheads on SNRM, first time I've heard of such a thing. I am afraid you are totally wrong.
Standard User WilliamGrimsley
(experienced) Thu 11-Oct-18 19:23:27
Print Post

Re: Rate cap?


[re: Realalemadrid] [link to this post]
 
Oh my. Ok, think about a line that goes from fastpath to interleaving, say it's capped at 40/10, if it gains interleaving the SNRM goes up, even though the target SNRM stays the same. Now, do you understand what I'm saying? One thing's for sure though, there's no source to say that there's a 3.5 dB target SNRM.

William Grimsley.

Edited by WilliamGrimsley (Thu 11-Oct-18 19:33:03)

Standard User RobertoS
(elder) Thu 11-Oct-18 23:12:09
Print Post

Re: Rate cap?


[re: WilliamGrimsley] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by WilliamGrimsley:
Oh my. Ok, think about a line that goes from fastpath to interleaving, say it's capped at 40/10, if it gains interleaving the SNRM goes up, even though the target SNRM stays the same. Now, do you understand what I'm saying? One thing's for sure though, there's no source to say that there's a 3.5 dB target SNRM.
You are once again talking total garbage. It is nothing whatsoever to do with "overheads".

Plus, in this latest post you are also confusing what happens at sync time with what happens during the time from then until the next re-sync, and making the glaring error of either not knowing or forgetting that a line cannot go from Fast Path to Interleaving without a re-sync. So your example doesn't prove your point to Realalemadrid because it is tripe.

My broadband basic info/help site - www.robertos.me.uk. Domains, site and mail hosting - Tsohost.
Connection - AAISP Home::1 80/20. 200GB. Sync 01/10/18 - 71908/13506Kbps @ 600m. BQMs - IPv4 & IPv6
==================================================
If you never think of anything off the wall, you'll never think of anything original.
Standard User youngsyp
(committed) Fri 12-Oct-18 13:52:59
Print Post

Re: Rate cap?


[re: youngsyp] [link to this post]
 
Still holding strong and the fluctuations in SNRM are minor. So I think the previous re-syncs were down to DLM.
Just hope this is what I can expect now and as a result, the line moves to retransmission low.

Paul

ISP: AAISP
Service: HOME::1 FTTC (TTB) 80/20 (2TB)
Exchange: EMSILVE
Cabinet: 4
DSLAM: Huawei
Modem/ router: Billion BiPAC 8800AXL R2
Attenuation: 22.2
Current sync: 59411/ 10211
G.INP: Enabled (DS & US)
Standard User RobertoS
(elder) Fri 12-Oct-18 14:40:31
Print Post

Re: Rate cap?


[re: youngsyp] [link to this post]
 
Retransmission low seems quite rare. As far as I know I've always been on High and I can only remember seeing one poster on these forums on low out of the large number on G.INP.

The main nuisance value of Retransmission high is that on BT Wholesale backhaul like mine the IP Profile is set lower than normal. (I forget the exact percentage value at the moment, somewhere just above 94% IIRC). The connection speed reported to the AA Radius server is lower than the sync speed frown, and is the value BT Wholesale have used to set the IP Profile.

What happens on the TalkTalk Business backhaul I don't know. Perhaps they too are told a lower than sync line speed.

In case you don't know the easiest place to check, it is the INPRein line of Bearer 0, that I've emboldened in the next to bottom block below. 1=High, 0 = Low. What the equivalent values mean in the Bearer1 block below that I don't know.

xdslctl info --show
xdslctl: ADSL driver and PHY status
Status: Showtime
Last Retrain Reason: 0
Last initialization procedure status: 0
Max: Upstream rate = 13491 Kbps, Downstream rate = 72727 Kbps
Bearer: 0, Upstream rate = 13506 Kbps, Downstream rate = 71908 Kbps
Bearer: 1, Upstream rate = 0 Kbps, Downstream rate = 0 Kbps
Link Power State: L0
Mode: VDSL2 Annex B
VDSL2 Profile: Profile 17a
TPS-TC: PTM Mode(0x0)
Trellis: U:ON /D:ON
Line Status: No Defect
Training Status: Showtime
Down Up
SNR (dB): 3.2 5.9
Attn(dB): 19.7 0.0
Pwr(dBm): 13.7 7.4

VDSL2 framing
Bearer 0
MSGc: -6 26
B: 243 237
M: 1 1
T: 0 58
R: 10 16
S: 0.0000 0.5604
L: 18806 3626
D: 8 1
I: 254 127
N: 254 254
Q: 8 0
V: 0 0
RxQueue: 80 0
TxQueue: 20 0
G.INP Framing: 18 0
G.INP lookback: 20 0
RRC bits: 0 24
Bearer 1
MSGc: 154 -6
B: 0 0
M: 2 0
T: 2 0
R: 16 0
S: 6.4000 0.0000
L: 40 0
D: 3 0
I: 32 0
N: 32 0
Q: 0 0
V: 0 0
RxQueue: 0 0
TxQueue: 0 0
G.INP Framing: 0 0
G.INP lookback: 0 0
RRC bits: 0 0

Counters
Bearer 0
OHF: 0 10185
OHFErr: 2851 29
RS: 1520037680 489959
RSCorr: 32476602 182
RSUnCorr: 0 0
Bearer 1
OHF: 60575563 0
OHFErr: 33 0
RS: 605755019 0
RSCorr: 294 0
RSUnCorr: 253 0

Retransmit Counters
rtx_tx: 477434474 0
rtx_c: 140727 0
rtx_uc: 113734 0

G.INP Counters
LEFTRS: 207 0
minEFTR: 71895 0
errFreeBits: 1067242453 0

Bearer 0
HEC: 0 0
OCD: 0 0
LCD: 0 0
Total Cells: 1393905431 0
Data Cells: 226743256 0
Drop Cells: 0
Bit Errors: 0 0

Bearer 1
HEC: 0 0
OCD: 0 0
LCD: 0 0
Total Cells: 0 0
Data Cells: 0 0
Drop Cells: 0
Bit Errors: 0 0

ES: 130 29
SES: 63 0
UAS: 33 33
AS: 973162

Bearer 0
INP: 50.00 0.00
INPRein: 1.00 0.00
delay: 0 0
PER: 0.00 8.15
OR: 0.01 31.38
AgR: 71981.24 13537.48

Bearer 1
INP: 4.50 0.00
INPRein: 4.50 0.00
delay: 3 0
PER: 16.06 0.01
OR: 79.68 0.01
AgR: 79.68 0.01

Bitswap: 462256/462256 9752/9780


My broadband basic info/help site - www.robertos.me.uk. Domains, site and mail hosting - Tsohost.
Connection - AAISP Home::1 80/20. 200GB. Sync 01/10/18 - 71908/13506Kbps @ 600m. BQMs - IPv4 & IPv6
==================================================
If you never think of anything off the wall, you'll never think of anything original.

Edited by RobertoS (Fri 12-Oct-18 14:41:12)

Standard User youngsyp
(committed) Fri 19-Oct-18 11:51:01
Print Post

Re: Rate cap?


[re: RobertoS] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by RobertoS:
The main nuisance value of Retransmission high is that on BT Wholesale backhaul like mine the IP Profile is set lower than normal. (I forget the exact percentage value at the moment, somewhere just above 94% IIRC). The connection speed reported to the AA Radius server is lower than the sync speed frown, and is the value BT Wholesale have used to set the IP Profile.

What happens on the TalkTalk Business backhaul I don't know. Perhaps they too are told a lower than sync line speed.
I think it's the same with TTB backhaul, as my connection rate reported in the AA console is always a few Mb/s lower than what which my CPE is reporting.

I've just swapped over to the ZyXel CPE provided by AA (VMG3925-B10B) and I can't get it to output stats to DSLStats. It connects and samples but I get a message along the lines of: "No data reported from this sample".
I'm by no means an expert with Telnet but if I telnet it, I can't get any results from using variations of 'xdsl' as a command.

Has some of the telnet functionality been locked down in the FW on this device?

I can't be sure with the DS sync but US sync is reporting to be around 400kb/s lower than with the Billion. However, I think this could be due to differences in how the devices report the value as speed tests give similar results. Bufferbloat is quite a lot more pronounced on the US, with the ZyXel though.

Paul

ISP: AAISP
Service: HOME::1 FTTC (TTB) 80/20 (2TB)
Exchange: EMSILVE
Cabinet: 4
DSLAM: Huawei
Modem/ router: Billion BiPAC 8800AXL R2
Attenuation: 22.2
Current sync: 59411/ 10211
G.INP: Enabled (DS & US)
Standard User jelv
(knowledge is power) Fri 19-Oct-18 12:47:24
Print Post

Re: Rate cap?


[re: youngsyp] [link to this post]
 
Yes it's locked down - the same as the VMG1312-B10D with latest firmware. There's been quite a bit of discussion about this on the Kitz forums.

jelv

AAISP November 2016
(Previous ISP Plusnet November 2001 to October 2016) Why I left Plusnet
Telephone rental: Pulse8
Standard User youngsyp
(committed) Fri 19-Oct-18 13:21:08
Print Post

Re: Rate cap?


[re: jelv] [link to this post]
 
Eugh, why can't they just leave things alone?!

Thanks, I'll pop over to Kitz.

Paul

ISP: AAISP
Service: HOME::1 FTTC (TTB) 80/20 (2TB)
Exchange: EMSILVE
Cabinet: 4
DSLAM: Huawei
Modem/ router: Billion BiPAC 8800AXL R2
Attenuation: 22.2
Current sync: 59411/ 10211
G.INP: Enabled (DS & US)
Standard User youngsyp
(committed) Fri 19-Oct-18 14:19:33
Print Post

Re: Rate cap?


[re: youngsyp] [link to this post]
 
In case anyone's interested, I've done a bit of digging and it seems the last specific firmware (that's readily available), where this should work is: v5.13(AAVF.7)C0. In v5.13(AAVF.9)b1, there's a line in the release notes that reads: "Support CLI interface".


FW available here.

I can't be arsed to downgrade as the ZyXel FW isn't exactly bug free at the best of times, let alone when it's a few versions old. So I'll just go back to the Billion.

Paul

ISP: AAISP
Service: HOME::1 FTTC (TTB) 80/20 (2TB)
Exchange: EMSILVE
Cabinet: 4
DSLAM: Huawei
Modem/ router: Billion BiPAC 8800AXL R2
Attenuation: 22.2
Current sync: 59411/ 10211
G.INP: Enabled (DS & US)
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