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Standard User cheshire_man
(knowledge is power) Tue 31-Dec-13 23:27:03
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Sub-woofer fuse blown


[link to this post]
 
Just been watching (again) The Dream is Alive on DVD.

Had the surround sound going - a must for this video grin

There are 2 or 3 shuttle launches with the deep & loud sounds from the rockets.

Towards the end, during one of the launches, there was a click, and the deep bass went. Clearly the sub-woofer was no longer doing its stuff. Checked and found the internal T 4.0A fuse had blown. The mains fuse is fine.

I haven't got a spare so will need to get one.

Question. Why might it have blown?

All the speakers are Bowers & Wilkins, the sub-woofer is a Bowers & Wilkins ASW608. The amplifier is a 14-year old faithful, it's specification shows that in surround mode, only channel driven, front power output is 65W+65W; centre power output is 65W; rear power output is 65W+65W. All at 8 ohms. There's no specific power output given for the sub-woofer - nor would I expect one as it's merely a signal that the sub-woofer takes and amplifies accordingly, though I can set a level on each channel, including the sub-woofer channel. As I don't have a centre speaker that output is disabled.

Could I have overloaded the sub-woofer? ooo

Any thoughts or comments would be appreciated.

[Edit: The old, blown, fuse is ceramic; a Maplin's replacement is glass, is that significant?]

Tony
We have more and more laws, and less and less enforcement

Edited by cheshire_man (Tue 31-Dec-13 23:30:02)

Standard User cheshire_man
(knowledge is power) Wed 01-Jan-14 19:37:11
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Re: Sub-woofer fuse blown


[re: cheshire_man] [link to this post]
 
Replacing the fuse has not fixed it. Clearly there is a deeper internal problem.

I've written to the retailer detailing the problem and expressing my concern. The speaker cost £350 and is less than 3 years old, and probably not been used for more than c.50 hours.

We'll see what happens.

Tony
We have more and more laws, and less and less enforcement
Standard User caffn8me
(knowledge is power) Wed 01-Jan-14 21:10:24
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Re: Sub-woofer fuse blown


[re: cheshire_man] [link to this post]
 
Glass or ceramic should make no difference.

By internal fuse do you mean the one on the back panel accessible externally or did you disassemble the subwoofer? There's another internal hidden fuse which, according to the destruction manual, should only be replaced by an authorized 'operative'

Accessing the internal fuse can be a bit tricky - you may need to cut a cable tie to release the wires sufficiently to withdraw the back panel far enough. Then you'll need to take the amplifier shielding cover off to get to the fuse. I know this from needing to pull a B&W ASW 610XP apart (not for a fuse problem but a snapped phono plug pin stuck in the connector).

Apart from that, good luck!

Sarah

--
If I can't drink my bowl of coffee three times daily, then in my torment, I will shrivel up like a piece of roast goat

Spiders on coffee - Badass spiders on drugs

Edited by caffn8me (Wed 01-Jan-14 21:28:56)


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Standard User cheshire_man
(knowledge is power) Wed 01-Jan-14 21:44:00
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Re: Sub-woofer fuse blown


[re: caffn8me] [link to this post]
 
Thanks for that Sarah, I'd missed that bit in the Owner's Manual. I'll see what the retailer says and I'll discuss things with him.

Any thoughts on why the fuse might have blown? I know the shuttle launch has very deep and powerful bass, but I thought that's exactly the sort of sound a sub-woofer is built to handle.

Tony
We have more and more laws, and less and less enforcement
Standard User caffn8me
(knowledge is power) Wed 01-Jan-14 22:00:07
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Re: Sub-woofer fuse blown


[re: cheshire_man] [link to this post]
 
It's possible the recording was clipping at low frequencies - that never does amplifiers any good and could cause protection systems to activate.

I'm surprised that you managed to blow fuses too. The subwoofer has its own low pass filter but I wonder if the AV amplifier managed to generate a DC offset resulting in a high current draw.

I suspect that the internal fuse will be replaced, the subwoofer will work perfectly and nobody will be any the wiser!

Hopefully I'll get my own subwoofers up and running before too long. Also B&W but passive and I'll be running in stereo. The neighbours are going to love me smile

Sarah

--
If I can't drink my bowl of coffee three times daily, then in my torment, I will shrivel up like a piece of roast goat

Spiders on coffee - Badass spiders on drugs
Standard User cheshire_man
(knowledge is power) Wed 01-Jan-14 22:11:53
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Re: Sub-woofer fuse blown


[re: caffn8me] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by caffn8me:
It's possible the recording was clipping at low frequencies - that never does amplifiers any good and could cause protection systems to activate.

...The subwoofer has its own low pass filter but I wonder if the AV amplifier managed to generate a DC offset resulting in a high current draw.
Forgive me, but could I have the bold bits in English - please grin
In reply to a post by caffn8me:
...The neighbours are going to love me smile


Tony
We have more and more laws, and less and less enforcement
Standard User caffn8me
(knowledge is power) Wed 01-Jan-14 22:32:06
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Re: Sub-woofer fuse blown


[re: cheshire_man] [link to this post]
 
Clipping is where a signal reaches its maximum possible on high peaks and the top part of the original signal is 'clipped off'. This is explained by Wikipedia here. The result is a distortion of the original signal.

There is some debate about whether this can cause damage to audio components or not. It's certainly something that should be avoided in audio terms.

DC offset is where a direct current voltage, not part of the audio signal, is given out by an amplifier. The input of the subwoofer may filter for this. A lot of amplifiers do but some don't. If they don't the effect is to draw more power than necessary for the audio and either overload the amplifier or burn out the speakers.

Thinking about it, I'd be a bit surprised if either clipping or dc offset caused your problems.

Do you have a calibration facility to match the subwoofer output to that of the other speakers?

Sarah

--
If I can't drink my bowl of coffee three times daily, then in my torment, I will shrivel up like a piece of roast goat

Spiders on coffee - Badass spiders on drugs
Standard User mixt
(experienced) Wed 01-Jan-14 23:24:30
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Re: Sub-woofer fuse blown


[re: cheshire_man] [link to this post]
 
I'm not completely clued up on this stuff, but have done an audio engineering course some years ago. So I have a couple of questions.

The tech spec for the woofer says it is an active unit, meaning it has an in-built amplifier. This normally means it would take a line-level input. However, you mention that you are using your own AMP (14 years old) which is designed to power speakers which are passive. So, I am curious how you wired this woofer up to your existing setup. Can you elaborate on this?

I tend to agree with other posters here. One has to always be careful with woofers because, by definition, their job is to move substantial amounts of air to create deep base frequencies. If you have flat-lining happening (due to too much input coming into the woofer, and clipping of the signal), that's going to result in extended periods of time where the cone of the woofer is fully pushed out and in, and this can heat-up the coil inside the speaker mechanism to the point where it may burn out completely. If you have replaced the fuse, it may well be the cone coil that is burnt out. But even so, I would have thought units like these have built in safety circuitry to prevent events like this happening ... or maybe not (?)

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Edited by mixt (Wed 01-Jan-14 23:32:27)

Standard User GrahamN2012
(newbie) Wed 01-Jan-14 23:36:12
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Re: Sub-woofer fuse blown


[re: cheshire_man] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by cheshire_man:
Any thoughts on why the fuse might have blown? I know the shuttle launch has very deep and powerful bass, but I thought that's exactly the sort of sound a sub-woofer is built to handle.

The specification sheet quotes a power rating of 200 W but a power consumption of only 40 W so your sub-woofer is designed for intermittent bass signals, as you might expect in typical classical music. It might be that your shuttle DVD has more bass content than the speaker is designed to handle resulting in enough current being drawn by the unit to cause the fuses to blow. (If this is the case then getting the internal fuse replaced should restore correct operation. Just use less welly next time.)

In reply to a post by cheshire_man:
[Edit: The old, blown, fuse is ceramic; a Maplin's replacement is glass, is that significant?]

In the event of an overload a ceramic fuse can safely break a much higher current than a glass fuse. I don't know what specification of fuse you have but a Maplin 5 x 20 mm 4 A time delay glass fuse (order code N98JC) can break 40 A whilst a couple of otherwise similar ceramic fuses I found on the web can break 1,500 A (e.g. http://uk.farnell.com/schurter/0001-2510/fuse-antisu... ). As a UK mains socket can supply several 100 A (until a fuse/circuit breaker trips) it is safer to use ceramic fuses for mains supplies. (Glass fuses are better used on power supply outputs where the available current is lower.)
Standard User caffn8me
(knowledge is power) Wed 01-Jan-14 23:43:51
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Re: Sub-woofer fuse blown


[re: mixt] [link to this post]
 
The B&W subwoofer can take either a line input (many AV amplifiers give a dedicated subwoofer line output) or speaker level inputs from each channel.

This is done by piggy-backing off the main speaker outputs but it isn't using the power of the AV amplifier to drive the subwoofer. The speaker inputs on the subwoofer are very high impedance and that signal is still fed into the subwoofer's own amplifier to drive the speaker.

In this case it seems that the AV amplifier has a dedicated subwoofer line-level (and mono) output. The OP mentions there is a separate level control for the subwoofer on the amplifier.

Sarah

--
If I can't drink my bowl of coffee three times daily, then in my torment, I will shrivel up like a piece of roast goat

Spiders on coffee - Badass spiders on drugs

Edited by caffn8me (Thu 02-Jan-14 00:10:48)

Standard User caffn8me
(knowledge is power) Thu 02-Jan-14 00:06:02
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Re: Sub-woofer fuse blown


[re: GrahamN2012] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by GrahamN2012:
The specification sheet quotes a power rating of 200 W but a power consumption of only 40 W so your sub-woofer is designed for intermittent bass signals, as you might expect in typical classical music.
This is typical of specifications given for domestic equipment. It exaggerates the capabilities so makes the product seem more attractive. Power consumption will probably be given in RMS and power output is peak.

Having said that, a 400W RMS amplifier can only go twice as loud as as a 40W RMS amplifier with the same speakers.

Sarah

--
If I can't drink my bowl of coffee three times daily, then in my torment, I will shrivel up like a piece of roast goat

Spiders on coffee - Badass spiders on drugs
Standard User cheshire_man
(knowledge is power) Thu 02-Jan-14 05:38:41
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Re: Sub-woofer fuse blown


[re: mixt] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by mixt:
The tech spec for the woofer says it is an active unit, meaning it has an in-built amplifier. This normally means it would take a line-level input. However, you mention that you are using your own AMP (14 years old) which is designed to power speakers which are passive. So, I am curious how you wired this woofer up to your existing setup. Can you elaborate on this?
The sub-woofer is connected via the sub-woofer Pre-out connection on the amp to the Line In connection on the sub-woofer.

The amp has individual level control for each surround sound speaker (centre deselected).

Thank you for all your input and comments, all useful to the aged brain box.

Tony
We have more and more laws, and less and less enforcement
Standard User RepairExpert
(knowledge is power) Thu 02-Jan-14 10:12:04
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Re: Sub-woofer fuse blown *DELETED*


[re: cheshire_man] [link to this post]
 
Post deleted by RepairExpert
Standard User ian72
(knowledge is power) Thu 02-Jan-14 13:46:10
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Re: Sub-woofer fuse blown


[re: cheshire_man] [link to this post]
 
Have you considered that the fuse may have been doing it's job by blowing because there is a technical fault somewhere else in the woofer? Perhaps something else was overheating/failing which caused the fuse to blow. Generally fuses shouldn't blow unless there is a problem somewhere else in the system.

I suspect you have a much more fundamental problem with the woofer than the amount of bass it was kicking out and that is why replacing the fuse has not fixed it. Maybe there is a short somewhere? Perhaps the high amount of bass worked a wire loose and it is now touching another and therefore caused the fuse blow.
Standard User caffn8me
(knowledge is power) Thu 02-Jan-14 16:25:15
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Re: Sub-woofer fuse blown


[re: ian72] [link to this post]
 
Having seen the internal construction quality of B&W's current line of subwoofers there's really not very much scope for a loose connection.

I'd be more inclined to think that the combination of programme material and AV amplifier output level overloaded the subwoofer and protection cut in.

Sarah

--
If I can't drink my bowl of coffee three times daily, then in my torment, I will shrivel up like a piece of roast goat

Spiders on coffee - Badass spiders on drugs
Standard User Brunel
(experienced) Thu 02-Jan-14 16:50:13
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Re: Sub-woofer fuse blown


[re: cheshire_man] [link to this post]
 
T 4.0A fuse T indicates time delay or Anti Surge.

This may be critical, make sure the replacement fuse is a T4A Ceramic.
Standard User cheshire_man
(knowledge is power) Thu 02-Jan-14 19:16:41
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Re: Sub-woofer fuse blown


[re: caffn8me] [link to this post]
 
I had a reply from the retailer this morning. He's taking it up with B&W.

We'll see what happens.

Tony
We have more and more laws, and less and less enforcement
Standard User BatBoy
(legend) Sun 05-Jan-14 14:49:34
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Re: Sub-woofer fuse blown


[re: cheshire_man] [link to this post]
 
Did you use a time-delay fuse? They look quite expensive http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Hi-Fi-Tuning-Supreme-20mm-...


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Standard User cheshire_man
(knowledge is power) Sun 05-Jan-14 15:59:10
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Re: Sub-woofer fuse blown


[re: BatBoy] [link to this post]
 
The fuse was marked T4.0A. I replaced it with one similarly marked, the only difference is that the old one was ceramic, the new one glass; certainly not as expensive as your link, 24 each is from another source.

Tony
We have more and more laws, and less and less enforcement
Standard User BatBoy
(legend) Sun 05-Jan-14 17:21:23
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Re: Sub-woofer fuse blown


[re: cheshire_man] [link to this post]
 
Still a whole lot more expensive than wrapping the fuse in tinfoil wink


______________________________________________________________________________________Go_girl!__________________
Standard User cheshire_man
(knowledge is power) Sun 05-Jan-14 20:47:16
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Re: Sub-woofer fuse blown


[re: BatBoy] [link to this post]
 
Is that slow blow foil or quick blow foil? wink

Tony
We have more and more laws, and less and less enforcement
Standard User caffn8me
(knowledge is power) Sun 05-Jan-14 22:11:54
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Re: Sub-woofer fuse blown


[re: cheshire_man] [link to this post]
 
If it's hat grade tin foil it should be slow blow for extended protection wink

Sarah

--
If I can't drink my bowl of coffee three times daily, then in my torment, I will shrivel up like a piece of roast goat

Spiders on coffee - Badass spiders on drugs
Standard User cheshire_man
(knowledge is power) Sun 05-Jan-14 22:13:12
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Re: Sub-woofer fuse blown


[re: caffn8me] [link to this post]
 
grin grin grin

Tony
We have more and more laws, and less and less enforcement
Standard User BatBoy
(legend) Sun 05-Jan-14 22:18:11
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Re: Sub-woofer fuse blown


[re: cheshire_man] [link to this post]
 
You could try our never-blow range which can also be used to fix fence panels.


______________________________________________________________________________________Go_girl!__________________
Standard User cheshire_man
(knowledge is power) Mon 06-Jan-14 16:25:57
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Re: Sub-woofer fuse blown


[re: BatBoy] [link to this post]
 
Hmm, I'll chew my nails while I think about that generous (?) offer...

Tony
We have more and more laws, and less and less enforcement
Standard User cheshire_man
(knowledge is power) Fri 10-Jan-14 22:40:19
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Re: Sub-woofer fuse blown


[re: cheshire_man] [link to this post]
 
Replying to myself to give an update.

I got a reply from the dealer on Monday which copied an email from B&W quoting £55 for a new Ice unit (inc. P&P). The dealer said I should deal direct with B&W as they had no means of dealing with out-of-warranty repairs shocked.

As I was rather busy I left it a couple of days to consider my next step. So on Thursday I replied to B&W, copied to the dealer, that I wasn't impressed with their response and suggested that the Sale of Goods Act (SoGA) gave me more protection, for a product of that price & purpose, than they were giving me, perhaps up to 6 years of product life. I suggested the dealer and/or B&W were responsible in this respect.

The email was rejected by B&W's email ticket system as my email address wasn't recognised; clearly the dealer had an account whereby he could raise tickets but it wasn't accessible to me (fair enough for privacy reasons). I then emailed the dealer pointing out that the B&W system wouldn't let me take it up with them.

Within 90 minutes I got a reply back from the dealer
Good timing with the e-mail,the B&W rep was in store when it came through.

He has arranged for a module to be sent to our store free of charge. When this arrives I will e-mail you so that you can bring in the sub,for us to replace the faulty part.
So I'll wait for their email and we'll see what's what.

Two questions remain in my mind.
  1. How did they know what component(s) to replace?
  2. What is the Ice unit?


Tony
We have more and more laws, and less and less enforcement
Standard User caffn8me
(knowledge is power) Sat 11-Jan-14 11:38:57
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Re: Sub-woofer fuse blown


[re: cheshire_man] [link to this post]
 
I'm not entirely sure what an ICE unit is but it seems that you're making progress. Let's keep fingers crossed smile

Sarah

--
If I can't drink my bowl of coffee three times daily, then in my torment, I will shrivel up like a piece of roast goat

Spiders on coffee - Badass spiders on drugs
Standard User caffn8me
(knowledge is power) Sat 11-Jan-14 11:52:08
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Re: Sub-woofer fuse blown


[re: caffn8me] [link to this post]
 
I think I've found out what an ICE unit is; http://www.icepower.dk/

The website states that B&W uses its modules.

Sarah

--
If I can't drink my bowl of coffee three times daily, then in my torment, I will shrivel up like a piece of roast goat

Spiders on coffee - Badass spiders on drugs
Standard User cheshire_man
(knowledge is power) Sat 11-Jan-14 18:19:55
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Re: Sub-woofer fuse blown


[re: caffn8me] [link to this post]
 
Thank you Sarah.

Evidently it's the main amplifier electronics of the sub-woofer. I only hope that's what has actually failed...

Interesting the the ICE unit is £55, the sub-woofer is £350. So the other £295 is...speaker itself, case, back panel & connections, R&D, profit.

I wonder how much the actual components total?

Tony
We have more and more laws, and less and less enforcement
Standard User caffn8me
(knowledge is power) Sun 12-Jan-14 03:18:48
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Re: Sub-woofer fuse blown


[re: cheshire_man] [link to this post]
 
B&W USA lists all spare parts and prices for current models;

You might find this interesting smile

http://www.bwgroupusa.com/bwgroup-parts/index.php/bw...

Not cheap. I am working on the basis that the ICE unit you are being shipped is a subcomponent listed as SKU: ZZ23227 Amplifier Module Board (alternate SKU 092ICEPOWER200ASC) rather than the SKU AA09624 Amplifier which seems to the the whole backplate with amplifier, speaker terminals etc.

Specific details of the ICEpower200ASC can be found at http://www.icepower.bang-olufsen.com/en/solutions/th...

Sarah

--
If I can't drink my bowl of coffee three times daily, then in my torment, I will shrivel up like a piece of roast goat

Spiders on coffee - Badass spiders on drugs
Standard User cheshire_man
(knowledge is power) Sun 12-Jan-14 16:32:41
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Re: Sub-woofer fuse blown


[re: caffn8me] [link to this post]
 
Thanks for that, you're absolutely right with the part no.; that ref. was on the email from B&W.

Interesting they were quoting £55 including P&P. The USA site quotes £225.89; at today's conversion rate that's about £137. Quite a difference.

We'll see in the next week or so what happens.

Tony
We have more and more laws, and less and less enforcement
Standard User caffn8me
(knowledge is power) Sun 12-Jan-14 23:58:10
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Re: Sub-woofer fuse blown


[re: cheshire_man] [link to this post]
 
I noticed the discrepancy in price and looked to see if B&W products were significantly more expensive in the USA and they're not. In the USA, ASW608 sells for $499 with no sales tax and in the UK for £349 including 20% VAT. Take the VAT off the UK price and they're about the same price.

Sarah

--
If I can't drink my bowl of coffee three times daily, then in my torment, I will shrivel up like a piece of roast goat

Spiders on coffee - Badass spiders on drugs
Standard User cheshire_man
(knowledge is power) Wed 15-Jan-14 12:50:23
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Re: Sub-woofer fuse blown


[re: cheshire_man] [link to this post]
 
The replacement ICE board is now in, I'll take the sub-woofer in tomorrow and leave it for the dealer to replace.

We'll see then...

Tony
We have more and more laws, and less and less enforcement
Standard User caffn8me
(knowledge is power) Thu 16-Jan-14 23:25:04
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Re: Sub-woofer fuse blown


[re: cheshire_man] [link to this post]
 
Well, fingers crossed for a good outcome smile

Sarah

--
If I can't drink my bowl of coffee three times daily, then in my torment, I will shrivel up like a piece of roast goat

Spiders on coffee - Badass spiders on drugs
Standard User cheshire_man
(knowledge is power) Fri 17-Jan-14 08:02:26
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Re: Sub-woofer fuse blown


[re: caffn8me] [link to this post]
 
When I took it in yesterday, the dealer started to remove the back panel, all the relevant screws bar one, that one appeared to have been damaged during manufacture, perhaps by a slipping power/electric screwdriver - certainly I haven't attempted to open the unit. So I've left it with them while they sort that out.

I saw the replacement audio amp module, 'tis a design of elegance, almost beauty. I downloaded the manuals which contained pictures so I knew what it looked like, but looks better than the pictures.

Tony
We have more and more laws, and less and less enforcement
Standard User caffn8me
(knowledge is power) Wed 29-Jan-14 09:24:20
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Re: Sub-woofer fuse blown


[re: cheshire_man] [link to this post]
 
Is it working now?

Sarah

--
If I can't drink my bowl of coffee three times daily, then in my torment, I will shrivel up like a piece of roast goat

Spiders on coffee - Badass spiders on drugs
Standard User cheshire_man
(knowledge is power) Wed 29-Jan-14 13:29:04
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Re: Sub-woofer fuse blown


[re: caffn8me] [link to this post]
 
When the dealer got into the unit and replaced the board, it still didn't work frown so it's gone back to B&W for them to sort out smile.

I'll update this thread in due course.

Tony
We have more and more laws, and less and less enforcement
Standard User cheshire_man
(knowledge is power) Thu 06-Feb-14 16:44:44
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Re: Sub-woofer fuse blown


[re: caffn8me] [link to this post]
 
Having had a call from the dealer this afternoon I've just been to them to pick it up. The B&W repair report reads:
The ASW608 was tested and found that the unit was not working.
Dismantled the ASW608 and traced the fault to a faulty bass driver & ICE module. Replace these components and reassembled. The ASW608 was retested no other faults were found.
So the driver had failed as well as the ICE module mentioned earlier in the thread. And after connecting it at home the test tone from the amplifier could be heard loud and clear.

So, despite their initial response, the dealer, Superfi (Stockport), have given good service smile.

Tony
We have more and more laws, and less and less enforcement
Standard User caffn8me
(knowledge is power) Thu 06-Feb-14 16:49:21
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Re: Sub-woofer fuse blown


[re: cheshire_man] [link to this post]
 
Good to hear it's all working again smile

Sarah

--
If I can't drink my bowl of coffee three times daily, then in my torment, I will shrivel up like a piece of roast goat

Spiders on coffee - Badass spiders on drugs
Standard User maxpower10
(newbie) Fri 19-Oct-18 17:45:25
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Re: Sub-woofer fuse blown


[re: caffn8me] [link to this post]
 
Hello, I seem to be having the same problem as described here. I have the ASW675 powered by the AMP500. I cannot find any information on the amp itself. The woofer works great when powered by a separate amplifier. The outside fuse is good and the on/off switch works as well. I am getting 120vac to the first board on the amplifier but it does not have 120 coming out of that board. I've read of this hidden fuse, but cannot locate it on any of the boards. I have pictures of all of the boards as well if that helps. Any help getting me up and running would be great. Thank you!
Standard User caffn8me
(eat-sleep-adslguide) Sat 20-Oct-18 13:13:06
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Re: Sub-woofer fuse blown


[re: maxpower10] [link to this post]
 
The amp appears to have been made by Marantz/D&M Holdings but I can't find much information about it.

There are some folks who have done component level repairs but it's all in French - http://www.homecinema-fr.com/forum/pannes-et-reparat...

Sorry I can't be of any more help. Good luck!

Sarah

--
If I can't drink my bowl of coffee three times daily, then in my torment, I will shrivel up like a piece of roast goat

Spiders on coffee - Badass spiders on drugs
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