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Standard User TheEulerID
(member) Wed 29-Apr-15 20:31:57
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Re: Recording a benefits assessment


[re: TLM] [link to this post]
 
Reading the guidelines it's like something from the dark ages of technology. Of course the cheap way to do it is a couple of old cassette recorders (which usually have microphones built in). There surely must be some on eBay or junk shops. Ditto with the cassettes...
Standard User 4M2
(knowledge is power) Wed 29-Apr-15 20:49:06
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Re: Recording a benefits assessment


[re: lelboy] [link to this post]
 
I've only seen one "statement of reasons" where a tribunal has awarded ESA on appeal. It made no reference to the previous WCA but only to it's findings on the day. Not sure that they even considered the ATOS assessment but focused their questioning from the original claim form, consultant's and GP's diagnosis/prognosis etc. A doctor and a judge presided over the appeal.

Edited by 4M2 (Wed 29-Apr-15 20:51:08)

Standard User lelboy
(committed) Wed 29-Apr-15 21:00:44
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Re: Recording a benefits assessment


[re: 4M2] [link to this post]
 
Hello, Have no idea what your observations re: "not sure if they even used the Atos report" and "I've only seen one statement....." are conveying to us. My comments have been based on attending TWO tribunal hearings with my friend - where both appeals were allowed - and my personal conversations with Atos & DWP on his behalf. If any poster chooses to not accept what I say, then so be it: no skin off my nose, as my pal won on both occasions!

Edited by lelboy (Wed 29-Apr-15 21:02:30)


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Standard User 4M2
(knowledge is power) Wed 29-Apr-15 21:10:45
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Re: Recording a benefits assessment


[re: lelboy] [link to this post]
 
Did you request a "statement of reasons" for either or both of the successful appeals?
Standard User TLM
(legend) Thu 30-Apr-15 00:05:20
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Re: Recording a benefits assessment


[re: lelboy] [link to this post]
 
Well, I personally do NOT want "to be afforded the facility", since I'm not in the position of applying.

As someone with a legal background, however, I am interested in what the law actually is on this subject - as opposed to anecdotal reports of what somebody believes it to be.

I can't find any corroboration, anywhere, of your assertion that they must provide recording equipment, on request, by law. Whilst I do not think they're honest, I also don't think they're so completely stupid that they would have, on their official website, in full public view, guidance that is flagrantly contrary to the provisions of the law - by claiming that the "customer" (as they insist on calling them) must provide equipment that, in fact, they have the responsibility to provide.

If they were so unwise as to publish guidance that was legally false, I'm also sure I would not be the first person ever to have noticed, and that it would already have caused a furore. Given that it hasn't, I conclude it is correct in law, and that is why it has been allowed to stand unchallenged. They are still a business, after all, and have faced a lot of scrutiny and bad publicity. No business - even ATOS - would court more controversy by publicly misleading "customers" as to their legal rights. They might try to intimate on a one-to-one basis, behind closed doors, that the "customer" doesn't have this or that right, hoping they will not be educated enough to question - or perhaps just feel too ill to bother. But that is quite different from openly publishing misleading official guidance, which would be seized upon immediately.
Standard User TLM
(legend) Thu 30-Apr-15 00:18:35
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Re: Recording a benefits assessment


[re: 4M2] [link to this post]
 
That's just the problem - there's no "restricted movement" - in the same way that having a permanent headache doesn't cause restricted movement - and nobody but the person with the headache is aware they have it - except based on what they say.

If you tell me you have a headache, I can't prove or disprove it - neither can any doctor. I wouldn't expect it to affect your range of movement, but would expect it to impact how your day goes, including how well you are able to sustain concentration, and how easily you tire. I wouldn't expect it to affect things like whether you can pick up a pound coin from the floor or lift a carton of milk, because it's not that type of pain.

Even if it was painful enough to induce nausea, it wouldn't necessarily follow that the person couldn't walk, or pick things up. They might prefer to lie down in a darkened room, but couldn't prove it was absolutely necessary.
Standard User 4M2
(knowledge is power) Thu 30-Apr-15 01:06:40
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Re: Recording a benefits assessment


[re: TLM] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by TLM:
As someone with a legal background, however, I am interested in what the law actually is on this subject - as opposed to anecdotal reports of what somebody believes it to be.


https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads...
Standard User 4M2
(knowledge is power) Thu 30-Apr-15 01:31:45
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Re: Recording a benefits assessment


[re: TLM] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by TLM:
That's just the problem - there's no "restricted movement" - in the same way that having a permanent headache doesn't cause restricted movement - and nobody but the person with the headache is aware they have it - except based on what they say.


Perhaps we should ask a neurologist about the levels of potential pain that can be objectively measured - endorphin activity? Obviously external inflammation and swelling around a joint would be painful; internally a scan may detect compression of a nerve root or roots, e.g. degenerative disc disease leading to chronic back pain and agonising sciatica...

Edited by 4M2 (Thu 30-Apr-15 02:08:45)

Standard User yarwell
(sensei) Thu 30-Apr-15 09:50:00
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Re: Recording a benefits assessment


[re: TLM] [link to this post]
 
PACE set the standard for recording - http://www.dmcl.co.uk/products/one-digital-airlight-... for instance.

Making contemporaneous notes is another approach. Take time to record what is asked, said and done. In writing, if your condition were to allow it at the time. Or take a witness to record the notes.

https://www.latentexistence.me.uk/why-wont-atos-let-... may be interesting.

--

Phil

MaxDSL - goes as fast as it can and doesn't read the line checker first.

MaxDSL diagnostics
Standard User lelboy
(committed) Thu 30-Apr-15 10:04:47
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Re: Recording a benefits assessment


[re: TLM] [link to this post]
 
Last comment from me, as I feel that your sole purpose of posting appears to be provocative, given, as you say, you have a "legal background".
If that background were sound, then you'd have no reason to have posted your original question - as you would no doubt, with your experience, been able to find the definitive answer yourself.
1) "Anecdotal" A short, interesting or amusing account of a "real" incident
2) My observations come from being party to a "real" incident (2 off).
3) DWP would have terminated my pal's claim if he had refused to submit himself to Atos scrutiny - thus giving little credence to your assertion that Atos don't "have" to provide: were that to have been the case then, if they did not have to comply, they would have happily had him removed from the DWP system, as being non-compliant
4) Atos would not be the first major company to have put, in print, falsehoods - only to have to "correct" their error at a later date (read - when found out and taken to task): to think or believe otherwise is na´ve at best.
I have provided what I know from personal experience to be the case, but you with your legal background choose to not believe it: that's your prerogative, but it beggars the question why you bothered posting such a question on a technical site, when you clearly know the answer to your question already!
Perhaps you could write to the Sun or Daily Mail's agony aunt column, and get a reply more suited to your "non-claiming" agenda.
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