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Standard User shtu
(experienced) Tue 13-Dec-11 10:10:48
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Exchange ADSL2+ enabled, can I get it?


[link to this post]
 
Stupid question time.

My local exchange has now (espck) had the ADSL2+ upgrade carried out, and the BT Wholesale checker appears to agree,

Our test also indicates that your line currently supports an estimated ADSL2+ broadband line speed of 1Mbps; typically the line speed would range between 1Mbps and 3.5Mbps.

Always on the lookout for a cheap speed upgrade, I tried manually selecting ADSL2+ mode on the router, and it didn't sync. frown

Is this something I have to order, or will the change "just happen" at some time?
Standard User XRaySpeX
(eat-sleep-adslguide) Tue 13-Dec-11 13:12:21
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Re: Exchange ADSL2+ enabled, can I get it?


[re: shtu] [link to this post]
 
But do you want to?

You have a long line. At those speeds, you could well be faster on ADSL Max, tho' you should get an uplift in Upstream Sync.

Post your current router stats so we can assess.

1999: Freeserve 48K Dial-Up => 2005: Wanadoo 1 Meg BB => 2007: Orange 2 Meg BB => 2008: Orange 8 Meg LLU => 2010: Orange 16 Meg LLU => 2011: Orange 19 Meg WBC
Standard User shtu
(experienced) Tue 13-Dec-11 13:27:50
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Re: Exchange ADSL2+ enabled, can I get it?


[re: XRaySpeX] [link to this post]
 
Oh yes, it's a looong line. smile

Will do, but it's a bit artificial as I force a 3db SNR with DMT. Syncs at about 19xx on that, and stays stable for weeks.

I can always force the ADSL mode if 2+ doesn't agree with it. Not something I'd want to spend out on really, just thought it might be worth a try if I could do so from my end.


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Administrator MrSaffron
(staff) Tue 13-Dec-11 16:05:58
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Re: Exchange ADSL2+ enabled, can I get it?


[re: shtu] [link to this post]
 
No point in ADSL2+ mode, the benefit will come from the ADSL2 side of things, and if the line is stable on the 21CN WBC network they actually do allow 3dB target margins

In terms of BT Total, they will most likely just upgrade you quietly one day, with a little letter about network changes.

Andrew Ferguson, andrew@thinkbroadband.com
www.thinkbroadband.com - formerly known as ADSLguide.org.uk
The author of the above post is a thinkbroadband staff member. It may not constitute an official statement on behalf of thinkbroadband.
Standard User shtu
(experienced) Tue 13-Dec-11 16:46:59
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Re: Exchange ADSL2+ enabled, can I get it?


[re: MrSaffron] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by MrSaffron:
No point in ADSL2+ mode, the benefit will come from the ADSL2 side of things, and if the line is stable on the 21CN WBC network they actually do allow 3dB target margins

In terms of BT Total, they will most likely just upgrade you quietly one day, with a little letter about network changes.


Nice. I'll wait until they mention it and then have another fiddle.

I'd never get a 3db margin without forcing it though!
Administrator MrSaffron
(staff) Tue 13-Dec-11 16:53:22
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Re: Exchange ADSL2+ enabled, can I get it?


[re: shtu] [link to this post]
 
If you do switch, then I would suggest letting the systems run their course for a week or two, before deciding it needs tweaking. Just in case the tweaks confuse the DLM

Andrew Ferguson, andrew@thinkbroadband.com
www.thinkbroadband.com - formerly known as ADSLguide.org.uk
The author of the above post is a thinkbroadband staff member. It may not constitute an official statement on behalf of thinkbroadband.
Standard User RobertoS
(sensei) Tue 13-Dec-11 17:24:34
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Re: Exchange ADSL2+ enabled, can I get it?


[re: shtu] [link to this post]
 
I'd never get a 3db margin without forcing it though!
On the old "ADSL Max" DLM that you are on that is true, but on the new DLM that runs on BT ADSL2+ it isn't. That will start at 6dB but adjust down to 3dB itself if the line is stable. ADSL2+ is though inherently less stable than ADSL or ADSL2.

As MrSaffron says, I would let it sort itself out for a bit before tweaking.

If you can post the line stats as they are now, so we have a reference point, and then when you are on ADSL2+, we will be able to see if ADSL2 is likely to be the best of the three protocols.

My broadband basic info/help site - www.robertos.me.uk
My domains,website and mail hosting - Tsohost. Internet connection - IDNet Home Starter Fibre. Live BQM.

"Where talent is a dwarf, self-esteem is a giant." - Jean-Antoine Petit-Senn.
Standard User shtu
(experienced) Wed 14-Dec-11 19:37:22
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Re: Exchange ADSL2+ enabled, can I get it?


[re: RobertoS] [link to this post]
 
Her y'go folks. The resync was me manually fiddling with the SNR. It'll hold onto this sort of figure for weeks at a time.

(Voyager 2500v)


ADSL Connection Status

DSL Line Up Count : 2
DSL Line Up Time : 01:22:24:26
System Up Time : 01:22:26:13

Counters Down Up

SF: 9827334 9827332
SFErr: 23406 306
RS: 334129368 83532322
RSCorr: 482941 1752
RSUnCorr: 753937 0

HEC: 1548 274
OCD: 614 60
LCD: 82 30
Total Cells: 779987796
Data Cells: 19488703
Drop Cells: 0
Bit Errors: 0 0

LOF: 0 0
LOS: 408 0
LOL: 0 0
LPR: 0 0
ES: 1427 0
SES: 666 0
UAS: 21 0

Total time = 1 days 22hours 26min 15sec
SF = 9831640 CRC = 23406
LOS = 408 LOF = 0 ES = 1427

Latest 1 day time = 22hours 26min 15sec
SF = 4751447 CRC = 8090
LOS = 153 LOF = 0 ES = 577

Previous 1 day time = 24hours 0sec
SF = 5080193 CRC = 15316
LOS = 255 LOF = 0 ES = 850
Standard User XRaySpeX
(eat-sleep-adslguide) Thu 15-Dec-11 02:16:08
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Re: Exchange ADSL2+ enabled, can I get it?


[re: shtu] [link to this post]
 
Where's the main router stats, Speeds etc?

1999: Freeserve 48K Dial-Up => 2005: Wanadoo 1 Meg BB => 2007: Orange 2 Meg BB => 2008: Orange 8 Meg LLU => 2010: Orange 16 Meg LLU => 2011: Orange 19 Meg WBC
Standard User shtu
(experienced) Thu 15-Dec-11 09:38:38
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Re: Exchange ADSL2+ enabled, can I get it?


[re: XRaySpeX] [link to this post]
 
Whoops. Sorry.

That's synced at 1984 with about a 5.8 noise margin, DMT says it's 70db attenuation, I'll get the rest tonight.
Standard User RobertoS
(sensei) Thu 15-Dec-11 11:02:28
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Re: Exchange ADSL2+ enabled, can I get it?


[re: shtu] [link to this post]
 
We could do with the definite figures, as 1984 @ 5.8dB doesn't agree with your earlier post of 19xx when tweaked to 3dB.

But in any case, my choice would be to be upgraded to ADSL2+ then force it back down to ADSL2.

ADSL2+ uses the ADSL frequencies plus as many again higher up, and those higher frequencies are subject to noise just like the standard ones. So you can get more instability. They also attenuate more than the standard ones, and on long lines don't even get used at all for the signal. But they still pick up the noise.

ADSL2 uses the same frequencies as ADSL but more efficiently. So you may get a slight increase in download speed but probably with acceptable stability. Tweakable just as now.

What you would probably get with either ADSL2+ or 2 would be a higher upload speed, if that would be useful.

My broadband basic info/help site - www.robertos.me.uk
My domains,website and mail hosting - Tsohost. Internet connection - IDNet Home Starter Fibre. Live BQM.

"Where talent is a dwarf, self-esteem is a giant." - Jean-Antoine Petit-Senn.
Standard User shtu
(experienced) Thu 15-Dec-11 21:10:25
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Re: Exchange ADSL2+ enabled, can I get it?


[re: RobertoS] [link to this post]
 
OK, here's the figures. SNR a bit lower than I posted earlier, but it's night now.

Line Mode G.DMT Line State Show Time
Latency Type Interleave Line Up Time 02:23:59:17
Line Coding Trellis On Line Up Count 2

Statistics Downstream Upstream
Line Rate 1984 Kbps 448 Kbps
Noise Margin 5.3 dB 9.0 dB
Line Attenuation 63.5 dB 31.5 dB
Output Power 17.3 dBm 12.3 dBm
K (number of bytes in DMT frame) 63 15
R (number of check bytes in RS code word) 16 16
S (RS code word size in DMT frame) 2 8
D (interleaver depth) 16 4
Super Frames 15244360 15244358
Super Frame Errors 24670 364
RS Words 518308252 129577043
RS Correctable Errors 723574 2616
RS Uncorrectable Errors 786265 0
HEC Errors 1859 84
OCD Errors 650 60
LCD Errors 0 60
ES Errors 0 0
Standard User RobertoS
(sensei) Thu 15-Dec-11 21:54:39
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Re: Exchange ADSL2+ enabled, can I get it?


[re: shtu] [link to this post]
 
Did your 70dB attenuation come from a different router then? The 63.5dB is a common "highest reporting figure", so it could very well really be 70dB.

Unclear whether you did the 3dB tweak at a very noisy time or what smile, as you are clearly nowhere near that now. A day-time untweaked reconnection, then stats taken immediately afterwards would be interesting.

But the whole debate is academic. As has been said, your downstream on ADSL2+ (G.992.5) could be worse than now, ADSL2 (G.992.3) could be perhaps 100-200kbps higher, but upload on either probably quite a bit higher than 448kbps.

My broadband basic info/help site - www.robertos.me.uk
My domains,website and mail hosting - Tsohost. Internet connection - IDNet Home Starter Fibre. Live BQM.

"Where talent is a dwarf, self-esteem is a giant." - Jean-Antoine Petit-Senn.
Standard User shtu
(experienced) Fri 16-Dec-11 09:35:18
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Re: Exchange ADSL2+ enabled, can I get it?


[re: RobertoS] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by RobertoS:
Did your 70dB attenuation come from a different router then? The 63.5dB is a common "highest reporting figure", so it could very well really be 70dB.


Slaps forehead - the 70db is a figure calculated by DMT.

In reply to a post by RobertoS:
Unclear whether you did the 3dB tweak at a very noisy time or what smile, as you are clearly nowhere near that now. A day-time untweaked reconnection, then stats taken immediately afterwards would be interesting.


The line here appears to be better in wintertime, a couple of months back I would get that sort of sync by forcing the margin right down, seems to need less now.

As for the values straight after resync, I think i may have perma-confused the DLM system now, usually settles at about 14xx with a 10db margin and won't improve if left alone.

In reply to a post by RobertoS:
But the whole debate is academic. As has been said, your downstream on ADSL2+ (G.992.5) could be worse than now, ADSL2 (G.992.3) could be perhaps 100-200kbps higher, but upload on either probably quite a bit higher than 448kbps.


Indeed. I'll have a play around when the marketing stuff arrives through the letterbox.
Standard User RobertoS
(sensei) Fri 16-Dec-11 10:13:56
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Re: Exchange ADSL2+ enabled, can I get it?


[re: shtu] [link to this post]
 
Don't re-sync more than a few times in an hour. You probably have done.

The critical value was originally 10 times, but I would say stay below 5 or 6. It sounds as though you have triggered a 3dB rise.

From my website
If the increase is done by the system then it should self-correct after 10-14 days stability and moderate error rates. It is best not to disconnect or re-sync at all in the period but it seems the occasional one doesn’t matter. The self-correction causes a drop of 3dB in the target margin and an automatic re-sync. If the original rise was more than 3dB then the process needs to repeat as many times as required.


My broadband basic info/help site - www.robertos.me.uk
My domains,website and mail hosting - Tsohost. Internet connection - IDNet Home Starter Fibre. Live BQM.

"Where talent is a dwarf, self-esteem is a giant." - Jean-Antoine Petit-Senn.
Standard User shtu
(experienced) Fri 16-Dec-11 11:56:53
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Re: Exchange ADSL2+ enabled, can I get it?


[re: RobertoS] [link to this post]
 
Naah, I've avoided that, it just seems to have itself in a knot from the margin being forced. I'll do a speedtest for entertainment value, see what profile it's got just now, at one stage I had a 1Mb profile with nearly twice the throughput...
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