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Standard User mlmclaren
(fountain of knowledge) Mon 04-Jan-16 12:37:04
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BT Groups - Broken Promises, Terrible Lies & Long Delays


[link to this post]
 
I had heard some stories about BT Groups 'ineptness' across both its Openreach and Retail brands but until you've experienced the 'shambolic' couple together, I think its fair to say don't worry...

My story starts here

I've recently (19th December) moved home, I've moved into a newly converted office block which has now become 24 luxury apartments, these apartments as usual all fitted with cabling (cat5e) for telephone points (Master & Extension)

These cables have been traced back to a cupboard in the lobby of the building which also is the home to the "original" telephone distribution point which features a 50-100 pair cable labeled "fed by pcp57", this cable also has an active line which is connected to the building managements systems for CCTV and various other security.

So on the 16th December when I got the keys and confirmed all of this I placed an order with BT Retail for FTTC & TV Services, offered an install date of the 11th January...(longer than I would of liked but oh well) then all was quite for a couple of days, I then prodded BT for an update, they apologies and then said the order was confirmed and confirmed the date of the 11th also.

Received all emails one which said we need to confirm you building can be connected and "we will call you within 3 days with an update", I heard nothing, I contacted BT who confirmed again 11th would be my connection date.

with My BT account now saying to be confirmed I've been prodding them every other day or 2, the response I've got is its with an offline team or new sites team, I've requested callback after callback and non of them have been done as promised...

I've called and got excuses about Openreach not being open due to it being a bank holiday, then it was the weekend, finally today I got through to someone who informed m that on the 22nd December they had been told a surveyor would come out on the 12th of January... why wasn't I told... after a bit of encouragement they then apparently contacted Openreach, they told him that they need to supply the new site with a line... and before this they need to send a surveyor.

So Openreach really don't have a clue really do they, I then told the guy to tell Openreach theres a DP on site, I also told the guy to give them the DP number and also noted its note of being served by PCP57.

The guy refused and said what Openreach says... goes.... I then proceed to tell the guy that BT pay them so BT is the boss... after a bit more rambling on he gave me a number for the New Sites Team... he confirmed this over the phone 3 times... I however then felt a fool because after apologising for my rants and ending the call then found the number was a digit short, and confirming the number 3 times of a clear line certainly IMPO means the guy was pulling a fast one.

So now I'm of the opinion that I might cancel the BT order though not before I raise another complaint and get suitable result for 'our' waste of time and the lies...ect...

I know other providers will have to deal with Openreach too, but I would rather give some of the profits to another company rather than them all to one 'shower of basted" group.

Also in the meantime, I may review my requirements, I liked the fact with BT that I would get access to BT Wi-FI-x and also the BT TV but really I can go without, I already have now TV and that serves 2 rooms and another person already, and with these apartments having a twin satellite out put in both bedrooms and the living room I could get premium subscription TV if I wanted too without the ties of Broadband Supplier.

Where I take my broadband next I don't know but I know it's probably not going to be BT... certainly not Zen after the debacle I've had/having with them, AAISP's new service looks good but the connection charge for FTTC IMO is a blatant rip-off.

On a side note, it's fair to say Openreach are not favourable of BT... or atlas not anymore... maybe they re-balancing the books by increasing BT's complaints as evidence.... tongue
Standard User warweezil
(fountain of knowledge) Mon 04-Jan-16 18:19:45
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Re: BT Groups - Broken Promises, Terrible Lies & Long Delays


[re: mlmclaren] [link to this post]
 
I wont bore you with the specifics but.... A friend of mine lives in a small village near here. He has had no connection since mid December which may be a result of cable work done in the area as the failure occurred at the same time, BT Internet Faffed around for 10 days sending a hub then promising an engineer would be calling him - when in fact it was a customer service droid that finally called some days after a new hub arrived asking if the new home hub had fixed the issue.

They then told him he couldn't get an engineer appointment until 6th January - more than 3 weeks since his connection failed.

Amazing service huh?

Any ISP that thinks that selling my click traffic is acceptable is MisinPHORMed
VIVACITI 80/20 FTTC
SWPM PCP29 - Still suffering Random drops and intermittent high error counts

BQM - too red too often - couldnt recommend on current perfomance
Standard User gt94sss2
(experienced) Mon 04-Jan-16 19:26:46
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Re: BT Groups - Broken Promises, Terrible Lies & Long Delays


[re: mlmclaren] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by mlmclaren:
So now I'm of the opinion that I might cancel the BT order though not before I raise another complaint and get suitable result for 'our' waste of time and the lies...ect...


Have you asked the developer for assistance?

Based on other posts here I understand it, that Openreach appoint a point of contact for each developer/development.

Its also possible that your developer hasn't informed Openreach that they have done some cablingwork (Openreach pay them for installing the lines) or given them adequate time to inspect/sign off the work (hence the surveyor) - if so, you would encounter the same issue regardless of whom you use at a retail level.


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Standard User partial
(experienced) Mon 04-Jan-16 21:11:10
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Re: BT Groups - Broken Promises, Terrible Lies & Long Delays


[re: gt94sss2] [link to this post]
 
If they are sending it to survey, the development is not known to 'newsites' and the developer won't have been paid to install plant. Probably building has had a name change since last connection. Surveyor will match address and then customers will get an appointment.

Existing line is probably for the lift. You can't run a lift without a phone line.
Standard User gt94sss2
(experienced) Mon 04-Jan-16 21:24:35
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Re: BT Groups - Broken Promises, Terrible Lies & Long Delays


[re: partial] [link to this post]
 
Reading between the lines I take that to mean the developer has screwed up during the build/conversion process and the delay is ultimately down to them imho
Standard User partial
(experienced) Mon 04-Jan-16 21:39:44
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Re: BT Groups - Broken Promises, Terrible Lies & Long Delays


[re: gt94sss2] [link to this post]
 
I'm not sure anyone has screwed up yet. We are still a week before the date quoted for the install. crazy

If a Survey Officer has been dispatched, it's because Openreach can't match the address. The building has probably had a name change.
Standard User mlmclaren
(fountain of knowledge) Tue 05-Jan-16 02:06:40
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Re: BT Groups - Broken Promises, Terrible Lies & Long Delays


[re: partial] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by partial:
I'm not sure anyone has screwed up yet. We are still a week before the date quoted for the install. crazy

If a Survey Officer has been dispatched, it's because Openreach can't match the address. The building has probably had a name change.


BT have been informed by Openreach that they will be sending a surveyor on the 12th (one day after current activation date)... the building hasn't had a name change however its due to the addition of Flat ** before the original address.

and yes the already connected line is for the lift and many have found it certainly works laugh
Standard User mlmclaren
(fountain of knowledge) Tue 05-Jan-16 02:14:34
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Re: BT Groups - Broken Promises, Terrible Lies & Long Delays


[re: gt94sss2] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by gt94sss2:
In reply to a post by mlmclaren:
So now I'm of the opinion that I might cancel the BT order though not before I raise another complaint and get suitable result for 'our' waste of time and the lies...ect...


Have you asked the developer for assistance?

Based on other posts here I understand it, that Openreach appoint a point of contact for each developer/development.

Its also possible that your developer hasn't informed Openreach that they have done some cablingwork (Openreach pay them for installing the lines) or given them adequate time to inspect/sign off the work (hence the surveyor) - if so, you would encounter the same issue regardless of whom you use at a retail level.


The developer hasn't screwed up at all, they have informed Openreach and had to in order to connect the line for the lift and also the 2nd line thats used for security purposes...

Also note I mentioned that I'm aware every other supplier would have the same issue, but I feel another supplier would of stuck to there promises made in emails and kept the customer in the loop and contacted them when they promised...

Saying we'll call you in 3 days with a update and having to chase them two weeks later for that update is very unacceptable, specially when information during that time has been fed to them by the basted's 'ahem' I mean Openreach!
Standard User MHC
(sensei) Tue 05-Jan-16 12:17:47
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Re: BT Groups - Broken Promises, Terrible Lies & Long Delays


[re: mlmclaren] [link to this post]
 
So, who did the cabling from DP to each flat? The Developer or BT? I would suggest the former as BT are sending a surveyor out. He needs to "prove" that the DP to each flat is cabled and that the flats do actually exist.

The developer should have arranged that weeks or months back. The lift connection will probably be one that was there previously and the one to te security office possibly picked up on an existing too. The flats are new and a survey visit is essential.


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

M H C


taurus excreta cerebrum vincit
Standard User mlmclaren
(fountain of knowledge) Tue 05-Jan-16 12:36:15
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Re: BT Groups - Broken Promises, Terrible Lies & Long Delays


[re: MHC] [link to this post]
 
Yes it was certainly the developers who had the lines installed from the flats to the DP,

However while I understand Openreach's reasons for requiring the visit, my issue though is the whole long wait when it's essentially someone popping round to look at a bundle of cables and a box on the wall saying DP...

...more importantly the whole delay with any information being conveyed by BT to myself with regards to my new connection and the failing in there promises is my issue.

EDIT: Cleaning up Apple's mess...

Edited by mlmclaren (Tue 05-Jan-16 13:54:56)

Standard User mlmclaren
(fountain of knowledge) Tue 05-Jan-16 12:54:04
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Re: BT Groups - Broken Promises, Terrible Lies & Long Delays


[re: MHC] [link to this post]
 
OK, I have an update!

As we speak an Openreach engineer is downstairs punching all the lines into the DP, he plans to pay a visit to all apartments today to fit and connected all master and extension sockets as required and reckons the systems at Openreach will all be up to date on Thursday meaning the line will be official.

I will be pressing BT to keep an eye on the account and keep my 11th slot booked!

PS. The line length at the DP is 290m, so overall line length of around 400 metres perhaps.
Administrator MrSaffron
(staff) Tue 05-Jan-16 12:57:46
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Re: BT Groups - Broken Promises, Terrible Lies & Long Delays


[re: mlmclaren] [link to this post]
 
If Openreach kept a bunch of staff idle with nothing to do then you might have same day responses and engineers, but who wants to pay enough to have an engineering/survey team large enough to cope with roll-outs, new builds, weather events and the usual fault repairs without having to wait a few days?

The author of the above post is a thinkbroadband staff member. It may not constitute an official statement on behalf of thinkbroadband.
Standard User mlmclaren
(fountain of knowledge) Tue 05-Jan-16 12:59:59
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Re: BT Groups - Broken Promises, Terrible Lies & Long Delays


[re: MrSaffron] [link to this post]
 
Yes I understand that, but it don't take to much to ask someone to nip in and check a DP!

Beside's seems that those where more lies as no surveyor is needed, this work has been booked in for sometime apparently.... so I question who actually [censored] up here??
Standard User MHC
(sensei) Tue 05-Jan-16 13:03:44
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Re: BT Groups - Broken Promises, Terrible Lies & Long Delays


[re: mlmclaren] [link to this post]
 
So, his work has been scheduled in. But when was that done? Almost certainly not in the last few days.

What you may have hot is one of the "Chinese Walls" that OFCOM insist on which stops parts of BT communicating directly with each other and even passing information across.


edit to add

Assuming that there is not a noise issue - then at 400m you should be looking at around 80-85 Mbps achievable. As for noise - where do the cables run? In a shared duct with power and lift controls? Or a separate comms duct?


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

M H C


taurus excreta cerebrum vincit

Edited by MHC (Tue 05-Jan-16 13:05:30)

Standard User mlmclaren
(fountain of knowledge) Tue 05-Jan-16 13:09:21
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Re: BT Groups - Broken Promises, Terrible Lies & Long Delays


[re: MHC] [link to this post]
 
He didn't say but he did seems to put across that it was delayed!

The cables seem to run up the building in one of the utility cupboard which contains Aerial & Satellite Distribution along with intercom connections.

I may go have another look now!
Standard User MHC
(sensei) Tue 05-Jan-16 13:23:05
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Re: BT Groups - Broken Promises, Terrible Lies & Long Delays


[re: mlmclaren] [link to this post]
 
Aerial and satellite feeds should be fine - intercoms however, some have a nasty habit of causing interference.


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

M H C


taurus excreta cerebrum vincit
Standard User mlmclaren
(fountain of knowledge) Tue 05-Jan-16 13:23:31
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Re: BT Groups - Broken Promises, Terrible Lies & Long Delays


[re: MHC] [link to this post]
 
So this is the original DP

Openreach guy has disappeared off for some reason so the utility cupboard has been locked again, however the DP cupboard still accessible,

This is the new DP the guy has decided to install and the connections he's made so far.
Standard User mlmclaren
(fountain of knowledge) Tue 05-Jan-16 13:31:04
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Re: BT Groups - Broken Promises, Terrible Lies & Long Delays


[re: MHC] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by MHC:
Aerial and satellite feeds should be fine - intercoms however, some have a nasty habit of causing interference.


Well this is the intercom system, can't say I've had that much of a look into it though!
Standard User mlmclaren
(fountain of knowledge) Tue 05-Jan-16 15:05:45
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Re: BT Groups - Broken Promises, Terrible Lies & Long Delays


[re: MHC] [link to this post]
 
Well socket is installed now and connected to DP, However it will be around Thursday/Friday before all checks are completed and paperwork makes it back to office and acted upon on the system.

BT however I saying I still have my slot booked for the 11th so lets hope that stays the case and I'll be back online on Monday!
Standard User kitcat
(committed) Tue 05-Jan-16 16:42:24
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Re: BT Groups - Broken Promises, Terrible Lies & Long Delays


[re: mlmclaren] [link to this post]
 
mimclaren

Well at least you will have a much better connection via the new DP and wiring and should all work on the 11th as booked.

Sounds like he was doing all the flats whilst he was there. It is unlikely that the info to say he was going to do all the work would be allowed to pass between OR and BTRetail and therefore none of the info would pass. ( Otherwise it opens up a marketing opportunity to BTRetail that others would not know about).

All BTR they would have been told is that 'someone' would be around to 'look' at the job. This has been translated by the chinese wispers into a surveyor. It is what happens with Regulatory Chinese walls and limited info.
Standard User WWWombat
(knowledge is power) Tue 05-Jan-16 18:05:13
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Re: BT Groups - Broken Promises, Terrible Lies & Long Delays


[re: mlmclaren] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by mlmclaren:
So this is the original DP

Openreach guy has disappeared off for some reason so the utility cupboard has been locked again, however the DP cupboard still accessible,

This is the new DP the guy has decided to install and the connections he's made so far.


At first glance, with an out-of-focus "after" picture, it looks very much like the 5 connection blocks have been retained, but will be surrounded by a much larger enclosure. Perhaps because of the bulk of the full set of cat 5 cables to each flat.
Standard User WWWombat
(knowledge is power) Tue 05-Jan-16 18:13:19
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Re: BT Groups - Broken Promises, Terrible Lies & Long Delays


[re: kitcat] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by kitcat:
All BTR they would have been told is that 'someone' would be around to 'look' at the job. This has been translated by the chinese wispers into a surveyor. It is what happens with Regulatory Chinese walls and limited info.


This rings true.

I had problems with my last installation, where an existing line obviously hadn't been used in a while, and the order triggered a survey. Unfortunately, the surveyor must have entered the wrong PCP number ... an error which took less than 2 days to put in place, but weeks & weeks to undo.

Getting the line to work - through the DP, through the PCP, and back to the exchange, took a few visits too.

All through the intervening period, the ISP was never able to really keep track of what Openreach were working on - because most of it didn't involve the "standard" customer-visit teams. Instead, it was more removed teams that worked on things, who "probably" don't see themselves to be working on a single line ... and therefore don't report work against a particular order.

I'm quite prepared to believe that the systems that need to cross the chinese walls don't work very well.
Standard User mlmclaren
(fountain of knowledge) Tue 05-Jan-16 23:34:07
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Re: BT Groups - Broken Promises, Terrible Lies & Long Delays


[re: kitcat] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by kitcat:
mimclaren

Well at least you will have a much better connection via the new DP and wiring and should all work on the 11th as booked.

Sounds like he was doing all the flats whilst he was there.


Well here's the latest photo's of the DP & the cables entering from the bottom...

As you can see some of the pairs are still awaiting connection to the DP, but the guy couldn't get access to all apartments and 4 are still unoccupied so they will either be done later in week maybe or left to individual engineers.

The guy said that he reckons he will be signing the job of on Thursday latest,

He also told me that before he did the socket in my flat he did a couple others and the first drop from the DP was in the living rooms...

Mine is in the master bedroom with a cable then carrying an extension to the living room... :L ... never the less just crimped a pair together and carried in too living room...

Probably find out theres a 50m coil in the ceiling knowing my luck tongue

The guy also reckoned the line length from my apartment (being on the 2nd floor and opposite side of building from utility cupboards was on 15 metre cable length, I reckon much closer to 100 metres personally, however doing it tight maybe just under 50.... not too fussed as long as it matches the BTw test results!
Standard User mlmclaren
(fountain of knowledge) Mon 11-Jan-16 12:40:30
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Re: BT Groups - Broken Promises, Terrible Lies & Long Delays


[re: WWWombat] [link to this post]
 
So the misery continues, even after Openreach carrying out the work to connect all the flats BT is still unable to tell me when I can have the service.

Worst of all BT promised me the other day after openreach had signed off job that I would be connected 'today', I contacted them to confirm they where coming and now told nope!

So waste of a day off work!

`and now got to wait until Wednesday for them to see if I can be connected... I'm getting very annoyed with this [censored] now, I will be wanting compensation for this rubbish and they seriously need to turn there attitude around or I'm going to cancel everything!
Standard User mlmclaren
(fountain of knowledge) Tue 12-Jan-16 21:27:04
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Re: BT Groups - Broken Promises, Terrible Lies & Long Delays


[re: mlmclaren] [link to this post]
 
Later on Monday evening received an email from BT saying that my phone line will be connected on the 22nd... yet on the phone they promised to call me on Wednesday and would them follow up the connection of my Phone & Broadband on Friday 15th!

After going through a demo order on Sky website to find out the soonest date for connection and finding it was also the 22nd, I've requested BT to call me today to explain this nonsense and get the date expedited as promised during early communication...

They have failed to contact me and have basically ignored me throughout the day, however Hyperopic have been in touch!
Standard User warweezil
(fountain of knowledge) Wed 13-Jan-16 07:52:40
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Re: BT Groups - Broken Promises, Terrible Lies & Long Delays


[re: MrSaffron] [link to this post]
 
A colleague at work has had no Internet since mid December. the latest appointment is today, which we fully expect to be a no show as the last 2 "appointments" were.

That is far beyond reasonable. Between the various companies that make up the BT group, it seems that any social activity in a brewery isnt ever going to happen!

You expect this from some "hole in the wall" outfit but not from BT Internet/openreach (the 2 parts of the chain involved).

He considers a month to be far too long to get an fault looked at and I think most people would agree.

Any ISP that thinks that selling my click traffic is acceptable is MisinPHORMed
VIVACITI 80/20 FTTC
SWPM PCP29 - Still suffering Random drops and intermittent high error counts

BQM - looking better than it has been....
Standard User mlmclaren
(fountain of knowledge) Wed 13-Jan-16 18:00:22
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Re: BT Groups - Broken Promises, Terrible Lies & Long Delays


[re: warweezil] [link to this post]
 
I honestly cannot express currently how [censored] off and stressed I am with the situation I've been put in by BT!

I would love to say this was all Openreach's fault but I don't think it is, I think Openreach has done everything its supposed to, I now think BT are having a laugh at my expense...

My twitter feed is filled with complaints to BTCare, and responses since Monday have all been saying I would be called today as I was also promises on a call on Monday with an update and new install date, they have not done that, instead I've received an email which just says I can be compensated once my service is active...

Yet no mention of when that will be!

I've demanded calls all day and got nothing.... I'm going to place an order with someone else as currently all BT are doing is delaying me which is pushing back the appointment slots.

Been in this new apartment 4 weeks now, placed the order for broadband a week or more before that..... the work by Openreach to 'confirm' & 'test' new lines was done and signed off over a week ago now also....

I don't know what else I can do,
Standard User gt94sss2
(experienced) Wed 13-Jan-16 18:52:48
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Re: BT Groups - Broken Promises, Terrible Lies & Long Delays


[re: warweezil] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by warweezil:
A colleague at work has had no Internet since mid December. the latest appointment is today, which we fully expect to be a no show as the last 2 "appointments" were.

That is far beyond reasonable. Between the various companies that make up the BT group, it seems that any social activity in a brewery isnt ever going to happen!

You expect this from some "hole in the wall" outfit but not from BT Internet/openreach (the 2 parts of the chain involved).

He considers a month to be far too long to get an fault looked at and I think most people would agree.


As a BT Broadband customer, he should consider posting at http://community.bt.com/ and waiting for the moderators to intervene (which can take a few days) - I would if I was him
Standard User mlmclaren
(fountain of knowledge) Thu 14-Jan-16 22:40:49
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Re: BT Groups - Broken Promises, Terrible Lies & Long Delays


[re: mlmclaren] [link to this post]
 
So BT failed to call today as they promised yesterday... they seem to have changed the 'target' activation date on the order tracker to the 26th from the 22nd now, this is the 3rd change this week and none of them changes where made with any warning or notification that they had done so...

I've been promised another call back tomorrow *rolls eyes* If BT ever get this account up and running I will be taking there [censored] through every ombudsman and regulator going and demanding compensation for this farse...

I think if the call tomorrow doesn't happen, I will have to order another connection as a place holder of install date as currently it looks like BT have done a fantastic job of [censored] this order up.... also noticed my quidco cashback hasn't tracked >(

At this rate Hyperoptic ill be supplying me broadband before BT.... and there closest presence is 20-30 miles away.
Standard User mlmclaren
(fountain of knowledge) Sun 24-Jan-16 11:16:54
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Re: Update - Finally


[re: mlmclaren] [link to this post]
 
So I finally have Broadband after the "good" communication between myself - BT - Openreach...

In the case of who's to blame, it's mostly Openreach (which is no surprise to some I guess), however BT Retail could have been more on the ball from the start and only when it became a complaint did I get good communication and willingness to do something rather than read notes from the systems.

Openreach is still holding up others orders but that due to their providers being 'scared' to contact Openreach, my order for my phone completed on Friday after an engineer turned up, he said to me that if Openreach had the jo for my fibre order (which they did for next week) he would request the job and be able to complete it within 15 minutes,

During the time the Openreach engineer was here the complaint handler from BT was on the phone every 5 minutes to me talking to me and the engineer and also liaising with Openreach to send the job to the engineer...

However Openreach didn't seem to be replying to the engineers requests for call backs or the job and soon the end of his shift had passed, meanwhile BT was now talking to an area manager for Openreach and was very [censored] off with the fact that something so simple couldn't be done,

The engineer had said whilst he was here that his job was made hard by Openreach's poor communication systems which are installed on iPhone's... he said that information that Openreach says is there actually isn't appearing on the engineers devices....

anyway, BT argued and rejected Openreach's offers of a Monday activation and managed to get next day fibre enablement done, I being negative doubted anything would happen but nothing else I could do so waited I did....

Next morning the Hub still not detecting a DSL signal... waited till midday and then prompted BT for update, they got on to Openreach and Openreach then said that it was all complete and that if there was any issues it was the CP's equipment...

I then asked BT to call me back 15 minutes later whilst I ran some tests.... sure enough I found that the MK3 Interstitial plate had failed and as soon as I removed this a placed a tradition dangly filter into the test socket we was synced...

"Yeaaah Baby!"

Eager to find out what I could get from 300 metres of copper I clicked to the stats to find full sync and also an attainable of near 120/30....

So very pleased with the outcome, just such a shame that I've had to go through all the trouble with Openreach...
Standard User gt94sss2
(fountain of knowledge) Mon 25-Jan-16 17:41:42
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Re: Update - Finally


[re: mlmclaren] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by mlmclaren:
Eager to find out what I could get from 300 metres of copper I clicked to the stats to find full sync and also an attainable of near 120/30....


Interesting to see what happens to those attainable figures as others go online..
Standard User mlmclaren
(fountain of knowledge) Mon 25-Jan-16 22:17:10
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Re: Update - Finally


[re: gt94sss2] [link to this post]
 
I agree, I've already anticipated those attainable figures to drop as more of the apartments go online...

However I'm still quiet positive that there won't be to much of an impact... or not a noticeable one anyway... I think the fact that all internal cabling from the DP is cat5e cable gives it a fighting chance from the start.

I'm thinking of changing the Openreach NTE5 back to the socket installed by the Developers Electricians and its nice and slim line, matches the other sockets (aerial, satellite, electrical) and also the NTE5's removable plates are faulty and preventing the DSL from connecting.
Standard User mlmclaren
(knowledge is power) Wed 02-Mar-16 09:52:23
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Re: Update - Finally


[re: gt94sss2] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by gt94sss2:
In reply to a post by mlmclaren:
Eager to find out what I could get from 300 metres of copper I clicked to the stats to find full sync and also an attainable of near 120/30....


Interesting to see what happens to those attainable figures as others go online..


I didn't realise how bad crosstlk could be, but as soon as 1 new connection went live it took a chunk of downstream sync from the attainable... and now that there's a good majority of this building online it's dropped conciderably... unfortunatly this morning I've had a check up on the connection to find I now have an attainable lower than 79999kbps and my downstream SNR is hangin on at 5.6db......

What I do wonder though is what it would look like if it all apartments had VDSL... I know of 3 flats with ADSL... being so close to exchange some might of favoured the cheaper/free alternatives... not to mention the considerably shortend activation time for ADSL over FTTC it seems..

BTInfinity - 79999/19999kbps - Quality Monitor - Quality Monitor 2
VirginMedia - 77000/5250kbps - BQM L1 - BQM L2
Standard User craski
(member) Wed 02-Mar-16 10:11:02
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Re: Update - Finally


[re: mlmclaren] [link to this post]
 
It is a great feeling to finally get a working connection after weeks and months of hassle smile

Zen Unlimited Fibre Office BQM
Standard User mlmclaren
(knowledge is power) Wed 02-Mar-16 10:20:49
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Re: Update - Finally


[re: craski] [link to this post]
 
It's been connected for a while now... on the first day itwas connected my attainble was 116000/30000kbps but now its dropped to 78000/24000...

and based on more connections inevitably going live in the coming weeks or months it only going to get worse....

Ths probably explains the reason for BT Wholesales crazy line estimates which have changed since I placed my order...

BTInfinity - 79999/19999kbps - Quality Monitor - Quality Monitor 2
VirginMedia - 77000/5250kbps - BQM L1 - BQM L2
Standard User Chrysalis
(legend) Wed 02-Mar-16 12:04:50
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Re: Update - Finally


[re: mlmclaren] [link to this post]
 
yeah not unexpected really, I had the same experience.

110mbit attainable when I first unlocked modem (within 2 weeks of service live)
Then within a week of unlocking it, it dropped to circa 90mbit in one go probably an install.
Then not long after the attainable was down to the low 70s.

After that point further drops happened but were much smaller, and the long term average on that pair was a sync in the high 60s, until it dropped to below 50mbit at which point openreach treated it as faulty and I am back in the low 70s on my new pair since.

Those people who have managed to keep 80+ after crosstalk many I noticed had initial speeds above 130mbit attainable, so there is a quite a drop between no crosstalk and populated crosstalk.

Sky Fibre Pro BQM - IPv4
Standard User MHC
(sensei) Wed 02-Mar-16 12:48:56
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Re: Update - Finally


[re: mlmclaren] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by mlmclaren:
What I do wonder though is what it would look like if it all apartments had VDSL... I know of 3 flats with ADSL... being so close to exchange some might of favoured the cheaper/free alternatives... not to mention the considerably shortend activation time for ADSL over FTTC it seems..


I am just helping out a friend who is the electrician specifying an office to apartment conversion. There is a secure comms room in the building and with forecasts of 80Mbps for the building - the cabinet in probably less than 100m away. BT have agreed that they will install the masters for VDSL within that comms room along with modems and then the split off voice if routed through CW1308 and the Ethernet output from the modem will be fed through Cat6 to the individual apartments where the routers will be based. That will reduce the cross talk and noise pick up from within the building.


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

M H C


taurus excreta cerebrum vincit
Standard User Icaras
(committed) Wed 02-Mar-16 13:29:51
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Re: Update - Finally


[re: MHC] [link to this post]
 
That sounds like a good idea, but I can't see that actually happening in reality.

Everyone's modems need to be in their own individual apartments. Openreach aren't fitting modems anymore anyway. They can replace them on repairs but it's assumed the CPs are using combined VDSL routers (modem and router in one device).
Standard User MHC
(sensei) Wed 02-Mar-16 14:01:15
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Re: Update - Finally


[re: Icaras] [link to this post]
 
Read the post:

"BT have agreed ... " And as the people we are dealing with are from BT's Openreach division, it will happen.


And why do the modems need to be in individual apartments? There is no technical or legal reason why they cannot be remotely located.


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

M H C


taurus excreta cerebrum vincit

Edited by MHC (Wed 02-Mar-16 14:03:09)

Standard User Zarjaz
(eat-sleep-adslguide) Wed 02-Mar-16 14:25:01
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Re: Update - Finally


[re: MHC] [link to this post]
 
And why do the modems need to be in individual apartments? There is no technical or legal reason why they cannot be remotely located.

Thinking about it, Icarus makes a fair point, most folk want the router within the property to use it for wireless access. Since many CP's now provide an all-in-one modem router .....

Standard User MHC
(sensei) Wed 02-Mar-16 14:40:24
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Re: Update - Finally


[re: Zarjaz] [link to this post]
 
The intention is for them to have a Router within the apartment which will give them their wireless access. Remember, the modem and router can be 90 metres apart!

There will be nothing too stop them having a full hub in the apartment; however what has been seen so far along with gut feel on noise from shared risers with alarms, entry phones, video links and power immediate adjacent then running through ceiling voids with large numbers of LEDs and CFLs ... there will be a significant reduction in attainable speed.


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

M H C


taurus excreta cerebrum vincit
Standard User Ignitionnet
(knowledge is power) Wed 02-Mar-16 15:01:21
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Re: Update - Finally


[re: MHC] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by MHC:
The intention is for them to have a Router within the apartment which will give them their wireless access. Remember, the modem and router can be 90 metres apart!


Oh this is going to be fun when mass-market providers get involved.

Standard User craski
(member) Wed 02-Mar-16 15:04:26
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Re: Update - Finally


[re: MHC] [link to this post]
 
Makes sense to deliver the best broadband speed you can to each apartment.

In event of a hung modem and given BTOR modems as supplied by them locked down with no UI, how will end users reboot them (assuming they have no access to secure comms cabinet/room)?

Zen Unlimited Fibre Office BQM
Standard User MHC
(sensei) Wed 02-Mar-16 15:09:44
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Re: Update - Finally


[re: craski] [link to this post]
 
Easy, through the building management/facilities team.

How often do the OR modems actually hang? Very, very infrequently in my experience.


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

M H C


taurus excreta cerebrum vincit
Standard User MHC
(sensei) Wed 02-Mar-16 15:14:22
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Re: Update - Finally


[re: Ignitionnet] [link to this post]
 
The owners of the apartments will not have a choice - BT only for the infrastructure and then free to choose whichever ISP they want. Similarly - they cannot have their own Sky TV dishes or terrestrial TV aerial - these are managed and served to each apartment. And Virgin Media is ruled out as they will want to run coax to each apartment and the building management say NO.


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

M H C


taurus excreta cerebrum vincit
Standard User Zarjaz
(eat-sleep-adslguide) Wed 02-Mar-16 15:36:28
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Re: Update - Finally


[re: MHC] [link to this post]
 
That was the point, VDSL modems are no longer supplied as standard.

Standard User MHC
(sensei) Wed 02-Mar-16 15:39:20
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Re: Update - Finally


[re: Zarjaz] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by Zarjaz:
That was the point, VDSL modems are no longer supplied as standard.


However, they have agreed to provide them for this set of installations.


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

M H C


taurus excreta cerebrum vincit
Standard User Zarjaz
(eat-sleep-adslguide) Wed 02-Mar-16 16:11:48
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Re: Update - Finally


[re: MHC] [link to this post]
 
That's fair enough then ... as you were. smile

Standard User RobertoS
(elder) Wed 02-Mar-16 16:49:29
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Re: Update - Finally


[re: Zarjaz] [link to this post]
 
ECIs I bet wink.

The indispensable man or woman passes from the scene, and what happens next is more or less the same thing as was happening before.
My broadband basic info/help site - www.robertos.me.uk. Domains, site and mail hosting - Tsohost.
Connection - AAISP Home::1 80/20. Sync 59504/15641kbps @ 600m. - BQM
Standard User mlmclaren
(knowledge is power) Thu 03-Mar-16 10:36:23
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Re: Update - Crosstalk


[re: Chrysalis] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by Chrysalis:
yeah not unexpected really, I had the same experience.

110mbit attainable when I first unlocked modem (within 2 weeks of service live)
Then within a week of unlocking it, it dropped to circa 90mbit in one go probably an install.
Then not long after the attainable was down to the low 70s.


Well I'm hoping that the connection don't get much worse, the crosstalk issue is more than likely accuring at the DP in the building or in the 50/100 pair back to the PCP...

I just hope that the new development next door (180+ apartments) which will exceed the wee 96/128 port hauwei's capability won't have too much more of an issue causing further crosstalk at NGA level.

BTInfinity - 79999/19999kbps - Quality Monitor - Quality Monitor 2
VirginMedia - 77000/5250kbps - BQM L1 - BQM L2

Edited by mlmclaren (Thu 03-Mar-16 10:47:06)

Standard User mlmclaren
(knowledge is power) Thu 03-Mar-16 10:43:05
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Re: New Development - Setups


[re: MHC] [link to this post]
 
Hmmm, sorry for my negativity in the following comments, but it doesn't sound like an ideal setup....

EU's won't be able to access the master socket to do testing as required in their term's o service... nevermind if an engineer visit is required... ISP's are now switching to AiO equipment which they would expect to also be used as the modem (in troubleshooting)...

I think it would be better if it where run like my new development where PCP -> DP -> CAT5/6-> NTE5 (Apartment)

BTInfinity - 79999/19999kbps - Quality Monitor - Quality Monitor 2
VirginMedia - 77000/5250kbps - BQM L1 - BQM L2

Edited by mlmclaren (Thu 03-Mar-16 10:47:43)

Standard User MHC
(sensei) Thu 03-Mar-16 10:50:04
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Re: New Development - Setups


[re: mlmclaren] [link to this post]
 
Yes, they are negatives, however there are plenty of them in this situation. Whichever option is chosen, there is a down side ...



They will have access - they will just need to request it from the building management.

As for using Cat5e/6 to the apartment - it will not give a major improvement in the noise rejection.


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

M H C


taurus excreta cerebrum vincit

Edited by MHC (Thu 03-Mar-16 10:52:29)

Standard User mlmclaren
(knowledge is power) Thu 03-Mar-16 11:12:57
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Re: New Development - Setups


[re: MHC] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by MHC:
They will have access - they will just need to request it from the building management.


That's not really going to work is it....

"Sorry BT customer service, can you hold for a few days whilst I wait for building management to open this cupboard"

It's not ideal and I can't see how Openreach will allow it as its against there own guidelines...

BTInfinity - 79999/19999kbps - Quality Monitor - Quality Monitor 2
VirginMedia - 77000/5250kbps - BQM L1 - BQM L2
Standard User mlmclaren
(knowledge is power) Thu 03-Mar-16 11:13:51
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Re: New Development - Setups


[re: MHC] [link to this post]
 
You would be better of installing FTTB type service.

BTInfinity - 79999/19999kbps - Quality Monitor - Quality Monitor 2
VirginMedia - 77000/5250kbps - BQM L1 - BQM L2
Standard User MHC
(sensei) Thu 03-Mar-16 11:27:34
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Re: New Development - Setups


[re: mlmclaren] [link to this post]
 
They are on-site ...


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

M H C


taurus excreta cerebrum vincit
Standard User MHC
(sensei) Thu 03-Mar-16 11:30:46
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Re: New Development - Setups


[re: mlmclaren] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by mlmclaren:
You would be better of installing FTTB type service.


If only ...

And that is one reason for the Cat5e/6. Terminate fibre in the comms room and provide an Ethernet feed to each apartment. That can be BT or any of the others, however none are there today and it could be 12 months, or 5 years!


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

M H C


taurus excreta cerebrum vincit
Standard User craski
(member) Thu 03-Mar-16 11:33:15
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Re: New Development - Setups


[re: MHC] [link to this post]
 
That'll be another £10/month on the factors fee then to micro-manage tenants internet connections smile

Zen Unlimited Fibre Office BQM

Edited by craski (Thu 03-Mar-16 11:34:02)

Standard User mlmclaren
(knowledge is power) Thu 03-Mar-16 11:39:16
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Re: New Development - Setups


[re: craski] [link to this post]
 
I was just thinking that!

BTInfinity - 79999/19999kbps - Quality Monitor - Quality Monitor 2
VirginMedia - 77000/5250kbps - BQM L1 - BQM L2
Standard User mlmclaren
(knowledge is power) Thu 03-Mar-16 11:48:14
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Re: New Development - Setups


[re: MHC] [link to this post]
 
I'm not quiet sure what to say then to be honest.... Openreach's literature says that this isn't the correct way to be installing PSTN and VDSL services,

I would not be happy having my connecton terminating external to my own property and have little to no power over it.... there is so many reason why not to do this...

I do applaud the future proofing, though this would still be possible using the method currently being used in my building and also what I recommended...

I unerstand that your trying to avoid noise and interferance but reality is that will happen regardless of the setup due to factors outside your control...

All thats going to happen with this is what happened at a friend of mines property...

Where he had phonelines terminating in a service cupboard on top floor of 3 storey building and the tenant complained about not being able to access them and when FTTC was made availble Openreach refused to install due test socket not being within EU's flat...

He ended up having a DP installed in the service cupboard and eventually as everyone upgraded to VDSL (-2meg ADSL) they had modem installed in individual flats.

BTInfinity - 79999/19999kbps - Quality Monitor - Quality Monitor 2
VirginMedia - 77000/5250kbps - BQM L1 - BQM L2
Standard User MHC
(sensei) Thu 03-Mar-16 12:19:41
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Re: New Development - Setups


[re: mlmclaren] [link to this post]
 
OR have been and still are involved in this. Ultimately, the cabling that goes in will support either option. So far, the comms room has a "max attainable of over 100Mbps ... one install used in the Project Manager's office is seeing around 50-60Mbps - probably due to noise. Run 30 more connections and there could be serious issues on some.


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

M H C


taurus excreta cerebrum vincit
Standard User RobertoS
(elder) Thu 03-Mar-16 12:31:51
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Re: New Development - Setups


[re: MHC] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by MHC:
So far, the comms room has a "max attainable of over 100Mbps ... one install used in the Project Manager's office is seeing around 50-60Mbps - probably due to noise. Run 30 more connections and there could be serious issues on some.
Sounds like a catastrophe unfolding, with lots of very displeased occupants. "Pants" might be the word they use when being ultra-polite.

The indispensable man or woman passes from the scene, and what happens next is more or less the same thing as was happening before.
My broadband basic info/help site - www.robertos.me.uk. Domains, site and mail hosting - Tsohost.
Connection - AAISP Home::1 80/20. Sync 59504/15641kbps @ 600m. - BQM
Standard User mlmclaren
(knowledge is power) Thu 03-Mar-16 12:35:11
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Re: New Development - Setups


[re: MHC] [link to this post]
 
Most the crosstalk issues will occure at the DP and in the main drop back to the PCP/OR Network...

It's pretty certain that that attaiable wil drop very sharply as more connections go online and in the comms room or not will eventually probably end up as low as 60meg perhaps... I know I went from 116/32 to 79/25 as flats have come online... out of 24 flats I think theres still around 5 to go on yet... and a fair few have opted for ADSL instead of VDSL...

Talking of ADSL, how are you going to combat that?

Have you considered using sheilded cat6 for longer runs or even all runs, it may help a little bit?

BTInfinity - 79999/19999kbps - Quality Monitor - Quality Monitor 2
VirginMedia - 77000/5250kbps - BQM L1 - BQM L2
Standard User Ignitionnet
(knowledge is power) Thu 03-Mar-16 13:32:56
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Re: Update - Crosstalk


[re: mlmclaren] [link to this post]
 
Crosstalk in apartments is always bad.

It was noticeable for me way back when on ADSL 2+. Very few had ADSL 2+, it was a very new thing only available from a couple of suppliers so I could see the crosstalk up to 1.1MHz then disappear after that point.

Usually you start off on a line with high bit loading at lower frequencies due to lower attenuation however on that line I had the best bit loading by a mile at >1.1MHz.

I got my revenge by running over-powered, non-masked Annex M so it was all good.

Standard User Ignitionnet
(knowledge is power) Thu 03-Mar-16 13:42:12
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Re: Update - Finally


[re: MHC] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by MHC:
The owners of the apartments will not have a choice - BT only for the infrastructure and then free to choose whichever ISP they want. Similarly - they cannot have their own Sky TV dishes or terrestrial TV aerial - these are managed and served to each apartment. And Virgin Media is ruled out as they will want to run coax to each apartment and the building management say NO.


I was referring to mass-market ISPs troubleshooting with customers who don't have a master socket terminating in their apartment.

Standard User mlmclaren
(knowledge is power) Thu 03-Mar-16 13:58:43
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Re: Update - Crosstalk


[re: Ignitionnet] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by Ignitionnet:
Crosstalk in apartments is always bad.


I assume this is because of the meeting at DP's (lots of exposed cabling in one place)

BTInfinity - 79999/19999kbps - Quality Monitor - Quality Monitor 2
VirginMedia - 77000/5250kbps - BQM L1 - BQM L2
Standard User Ignitionnet
(knowledge is power) Thu 03-Mar-16 14:19:41
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Re: Update - Crosstalk


[re: mlmclaren] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by mlmclaren:
I assume this is because of the meeting at DP's (lots of exposed cabling in one place)


The DPs carry many more lines than DPs serving houses.

Standard User MHC
(sensei) Thu 03-Mar-16 14:25:18
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Re: New Development - Setups


[re: RobertoS] [link to this post]
 
All I am doing is helping sort out the cabling that is going in and ensuring it is flexible enough to support many options. The possibility of putting the modems in the comms room was considered - yes it causes some issues and sorts out others ... and BT OR agreed it could be done. In the end, do they want to have to keep sending someone out, even if chargeable, because of a "slow" connection? Probably not.

The cabling will be there, BTs agreement will be there, the customer can then decide what he wants to do.

The cabinet is close by and currently has a good number of connections so there is already a high level of crosstalk (I would guess) it is te potential for high levels of noise in the building, some of which is already seen, that is the concern.

The builder (not the developer) is also trying to be awkward on the cabling side and, metaphorically, his head is to be banged against a wall!


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

M H C


taurus excreta cerebrum vincit
Standard User Zarjaz
(eat-sleep-adslguide) Thu 03-Mar-16 14:39:03
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Re: Update - Crosstalk


[re: Ignitionnet] [link to this post]
 
The DPs carry many more lines than DPs serving houses.

That is a rash generalisation I'd say.

Crosstalk doesn't just happen at the DP itself, it is present throughout the cable run.

The UG DP in the underground box outside my house serves 12 properties, but also running through there are the feeds to a further three more DP's so the affects of all those properties lines are present in the cable feeding my DP. Drop back over the road where the feed cable is 100 pairs, here it splits to send 50 on to my DP and those beyond it and the other 50 go to feed the maisonettes and houses on the other side. So the 100 pair has many working lines in it, my pair passes through all these, how is that any different to a 100 pair DP in a block of flats ?

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