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Standard User michaeldjcox
(newbie) Fri 17-Jun-16 18:20:52
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Re: No ADSL filters seem to work


[re: michaeldjcox] [link to this post]
 
An update....

Still have the issue!

Expecting engineer number 7 next wednesday.

Have a better class of contact with BT now - get regular calls a single contact in Newcastle who tracks the problem and runs tests and books engineers.

So I am saved from the India call centre ordeal.

But I feel we are now in various other loops

We seem to oscillate Voice engineer vs broadband engineer.

The former seem to run out of things they can do. The latter more useful in this context.

I get the feeling the the results of the one engineers visit are not really fed into the investigations of the next engineer so we seem to start all over again each visit.

For example one engineer actually fixed an issue a mile from the house which seem to solve the problem for about 3 days.

No engineer since then has been prepared to accept that there may have been a regression of that earlier fixed fault and we start again at the house.

In fact there seems to be a general reluctance to look at anything equipment/junctions between the house and the exchange.

So the issue remains the same.

When the ADSL is plugged in the voice line crackles.

I have one router, one phone, and a faceplate filter and shielded cable between filter and router and between filter and phone.

We have tried:

testing at the test socket
testing with a new home hub and another billion router rather than my billion 7800N
connecting directly from the termination of the overhead line under the eaves.
Numerous alternative filters
Several alternative phones
Taking the old fashioned screw termination junction box out of the equation (connections go via two chunks of metal)

The last broadband engineer managed to get the connection speed back up to its former level of 8Mb (though occasionally now it drops down to 6Mb) - previoulsy I was getting between 3 and 5 Mbs.

But still the crackle....

The latest theory is there another "ADSL filter" device outside my house somewhere (in a green cabinet).

(though I've never seen a green cabinet anywhere around)

Michael
Standard User eckiedoo
(experienced) Sat 18-Jun-16 08:26:36
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Re: No ADSL filters seem to work


[re: michaeldjcox] [link to this post]
 
"When the ADSL is plugged in the voice line crackles."

Assuming you mean that the fault only occurs when the ADSL Modem/Router is plugged in, that suggests a fault in that item or the in-house phone wiring including the plugs and sockets.


With it plugged IN, does the problem disappear when that ADSL M/R is switched OFF?

If that is the situation, it suggests something in the M/R itself and/or its power supply adaptor if any.


If the problem occurs with the M/R plugged IN and whether switched ON or OFF, then it suggests problems with the in-house wiring, including the phone plugs and phone sockets, including the ADSL Splitter Dongle if used, the latter unlikely given the simplicity and that you have tried others.

-----------

The MODEM side of splitter dongles are "straight-through", both the ADSL signals and the phone speech continuing to be available.

The PHONE side incorporates a High-Frequency REJECT filter circuit, to prevent true ADSL signals from getting to the phone.

I have taken an ADSL Sp[litter/Dongle apart, to confirm this, as well as checking circuit diagrams.

So if the ADSL M/R is faulty, producing general noise particularly at audio/phone frequencies as well as the HF ADSL signals, these would NOT be rejected by that Filter circuit, so could interfere with the phone etc.
Standard User eckiedoo
(experienced) Sat 18-Jun-16 12:06:48
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Re: No ADSL filters seem to work


[re: eckiedoo] [link to this post]
 
I note that the Billion 7800N covers a wide range of "broadband" connections-

http://www.billion.uk.com/product/wireless/7800n.htm
"
BiPAC 7800N
Broadcom Chipset, 802.11n ADSL2+/Broadband Firewall Router with Gigabit Ethernet Switch

The 7800N is an all-round high performance wireless router that can be used with all service providers currently operating in the UK. As well as being compatible with existing ADSL and ADSL2+ services using the UKs standard copper telephone lines, the 7800N works just as well with cable providers, such as Virgin, and also new superfast broadband packages from BT Infinity and other providers using NGN (Next Generation Network) technologies, including FTTC, FTTP and VDSL.
"
If the problem only occurs when it is plugged in and switched ON, could there be a Settings problem rather than a Physical problem?

---
"I can clearly hear what sounds like modem dial up noises executing some kind of connection protocol when the DSL starts up."

Try recording them, if you have facilities available.

Many years back, we had terrific problems on our then simple; but High Priority (Red Card) Phone line.

It was intermittent; but a combination of managing to record the sounds inclusive of engineering tones an general very loud noise; and it fortunately(!) occurring when reporting it yet again to Faults, that lady took some time to recover from the deafening effects, ended up with a rapid change to the later System X equipment in the exchange, from the earlier Cross-Bar.

However that led to another problem - we were advised of the move by a message left on our Answering Machine - which did NOT include the New Number.

My lady-wife had problems extracting this from Directory Enquiries eventually, by telling them to ring that new number and giving it to whom-so-ever answered, Human or Answering Machine!

Directory Enquiries reluctance was according to their information, the New Number was "Ex-Directory".

We had never asked for this; and the need for it to be generally available was also the reason for the line being on Red Card, same priority as Police Stations etc.


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Standard User eckiedoo
(experienced) Sat 18-Jun-16 12:26:02
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Re: No ADSL filters seem to work


[re: smsmasters] [link to this post]
 
Another aspect that someone with more knowledge may be able to answer.

My understanding is that there are xDSL signals on the phone line "at all times", whether the home Modem/Router is plugged IN & ON; or not.

Hence a working home M/R being able to show whether it is connected or not, by the LEDs or LCD Display, confirming that it is "hearing the exchange/far end" at the exchange for ADSL and at the connected FTTC for VDSL.
Standard User RobertoS
(elder) Sat 18-Jun-16 14:04:32
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Re: No ADSL filters seem to work


[re: eckiedoo] [link to this post]
 
Well it certainly won't show anything by its lights when turned off, other than that fact, and it won't show connected when not plugged into the line.

I have my doubts that there is a signal from the MSAN/DSLAM when the modem is absent or off, but prepared to be corrected as you are.

Once plugged in and switched on there is immediate traffic during synchronisation. Once synchronised there is constant passage of bits at the connection speed established. AIUI this stream is formatted according to the protocol in use as headers and end markers for the frames and packets when no data is passing. When data is entered by the modem it is carried between the headers and end markers.

There are two stages of connection. First between the modems at each end, and then between the user and ISP routers. Typically these show as DSL and Internet respectively at the user end. Sometimes the word Broadband is used.

Kindness isn't going to cure the world of all its awfulness but it's a good place to begin. Daisy Ridley.
My broadband basic info/help site - www.robertos.me.uk. Domains, site and mail hosting - Tsohost.
Connection - AAISP Home::1 80/20. Sync 59500/14989kbps @ 600m. - BQM
Standard User eckiedoo
(experienced) Sat 18-Jun-16 15:25:24
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Re: No ADSL filters seem to work


[re: RobertoS] [link to this post]
 
Agreed that there must be traffic when requested; but I am wondering about when the computers are switched OFF, ie the various local/home items are switched OFF and the M/R is still switched ON etc.

My EE Bright Box 2 and earlier 1, have all 4 LEDs ON at Green with the various connected items OFF.

The top, Power LED is obviously purely local.

Broadband #2 is ON solid.Green

Internet #3 is ON Green, frequently flickering OFF

Wireless #4 is ON Green, occasionally flickering OFF.

-----

In general use, the two flickering LEDs vary in degree, depending on the working traffic.

Again in general use and if no local items are "connected", then none of those 4 LEDs have shown the Orange phase, which does appear hopefully briefly, when the BB is switched back ON after a re-boot, whether of the BB itself or if mains are restored after an outage.

Also if the MODEM Phone line connection is broken, the Orange re-appears as the hand-shaking proceeds.

It is the latter aspect that suggests that there are DSL signals on the phone line at "all" times.

--------------

Unplugging the MODEM Phone line from the BB in a test just now, LEDs #1 & #4 remain Green as described above.

On disconnecting, it takes about 5 seconds for the other two to changge -

Broadband #2 switches to solid Red.

Internet #3 goes solidly OFF.

Reconnecting the cable -

Broadband #2 takes about 5 seconds to start flickering Orande, then another 5 seconds to return to solid Green

Internet #3 initially remains OF, the when Broadband has turned to Green, #3 starts flickering Orange; and after a short period of that, returns to flickering Green.


Hence in combination, those all suggest that there is a DSL signal, "Keep-Alive ?", at "all times".

Edited by eckiedoo (Sat 18-Jun-16 15:35:34)

Standard User RobertoS
(elder) Sat 18-Jun-16 15:58:15
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Re: No ADSL filters seem to work


[re: eckiedoo] [link to this post]
 
It is very difficult to explain things to you.

If there are modems switched on at each end, then there is traffic at some speed or other, I don't know what, in order to synchronise. Once synchronised there is traffic at the sync'ed speed until the sync is broken. If both modems are still switched on then they will immediately go back to negotiating sync.

Nothing whatsoever to do with establishing connection to the ISP, i.e. Internet connection.

I don't know how to make that any clearer. User data transfer happens inside the packets that are present but empty when no user data is being passed.

Your #2 looks like DSL sync when green. Your #3 is connection to your ISP, and when green shows your credentials have been accepted and a session has been established.

On any of those, flickering shows something is happening, but they are not "off" in the sense of disconnected, any more than your car indicators are "off" at any stage when you have have turned them on to show you are turning.

You obviously completely missed the jokes in my previous post about what the lights tell us when the modem is disconnected from the line or turned off. Your post it was a reply to suggested you thought they indicated something in that state.

Re whether or not there is traffic on the line in that state I also covered. It is impossible to tell from your lights, but I don't think there is. There is no circuit. As in when everything electrical in your house is turned off, there is no current on the ring main waiting to have a gate opened at a light switch or similar.

Having said that, the modem at the DSLAM is "Always on", waiting for a signal from yours to start the synchronisation process if not already sync'ed.

+++++++++++++++++++
Edit - your long addition in your edit about what happened when you unplugged the modem from the line, thus breaking sync, wasn't present when I drafted the above. What you described happening is exactly what is expected and tells us nothing about what is on the line while the modem was absent.

It could be nothing, it could be a handshake signal. Yours when reconnected may send an "Anyone there, or it may respond to an "Anyone there" from the DSLAM modem. You simply cannot tell from observing the lights. It's something anyone who know, knows. End of. I do have a faint recollection of the same question a few years ago, and the answer was that there is a handshake from the DSLAM/MSAN, but you certainly cannot infer anything about that from your lights.

Kindness isn't going to cure the world of all its awfulness but it's a good place to begin. Daisy Ridley.
My broadband basic info/help site - www.robertos.me.uk. Domains, site and mail hosting - Tsohost.
Connection - AAISP Home::1 80/20. Sync 59500/14989kbps @ 600m. - BQM

Edited by RobertoS (Sat 18-Jun-16 16:08:23)

Standard User Zarjaz
(eat-sleep-adslguide) Sat 18-Jun-16 17:42:24
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Re: No ADSL filters seem to work


[re: michaeldjcox] [link to this post]
 
After so many engineering visits my first question would be, which, if any, of your pair has been swapped out, E, D both ? If not, then they should have been.

Sadly I still think the onus for your delayed repair lies with the 'systems' and processes used to run engineering staff these days. Staff are not given the time, back up, and training to job as well as they ought.

When number seven turns up let them run the tests they are obliged to do THEN tell them what has been going on. It is very common for these broadband repair tasks to come out with no good associated notes or fault history. Then ask that the E and D be swapped out. Ask them to co-op with the DCoE broadband repair team to assist them.

Good luck.

Standard User eckiedoo
(experienced) Sat 18-Jun-16 19:13:45
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Re: No ADSL filters seem to work


[re: RobertoS] [link to this post]
 
Thank you for your extended answer.

I suggest that we are in greater agreement than you imply.

For one thing, I have not mentioned "ISP" anywhere in connection with the modem's operations, other than clearly identifying what I have, just in case it is known to operate in some other manner, although I think that is extremely unlikely.

----

"If both modems are still switched on then they will immediately go back to negotiating sync."

My "keep-alive" signals, using probably an older terminology.

----

" User data transfer happens inside the packets that are present but empty when no user data is being passed."

Agreed generally, although there will still be the usual Header and Terminator for the Packet.

I have been working with that concept since around 1960, so am very aware of it.

----

"Your #3 is connection to your ISP, and when green shows your credentials have been accepted and a session has been established."

#3 is clearly labelled "Internet" rather than "ISP"; and if my ISP goes down, as far as I am aware I can still go out to other sites - but, of course, I may be wrong.

---

Your analogy with the house electricity supply is slightly confusing.

If it is only the load items in the house which are switched off, then there is the voltage on the ring main, just waiting to connect via an individual switch.

If it is the "Main Switch", then agreed, there is no voltage on the ring main.

------

Regarding the flickering, nowhere did I state or imply that this behaviour indicated that the relevant system system is "OFF".

I did say that the flickering varied as the traffic varied - but did not (intend to) imply that the "black periods" represented No Traffic.

---

I note that effectively we are agreed that some form of "hand-shaking" signalling, one way or t'other, takes place, when a functioning modem is connected to a functioning DSL source.

-----------------------

Acknowledging my ignorance of the absolute specifics of the DSL system, that is why I qualified my original posting, with hoping that someone with absolute definite knowledge would come forward with a definitive, simple, answer.

-----------------

Again my thanks; and I do believe that we are in much greater agreement.
Standard User RobertoS
(elder) Sat 18-Jun-16 20:58:25
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Re: No ADSL filters seem to work


[re: eckiedoo] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by eckiedoo:
Agreed generally, although there will still be the usual Header and Terminator for the Packet.
You seem to have forgotten what I said about those in my previous post.
#3 is clearly labelled "Internet" rather than "ISP"; and if my ISP goes down, as far as I am aware I can still go out to other sites - but, of course, I may be wrong.
Very. I said connected to your ISP, not to their website. You obviously aren't connected to that unless you choose to access it through your browser. If their website goes down, that of itself does not cause you any problems at all except opening it, and perhaps getting to your account.

Nor did I ever suggest it would be labelled ISP. I told you what the light signified.
Your analogy with the house electricity supply is slightly confusing.

If it is only the load items in the house which are switched off, then there is the voltage on the ring main, just waiting to connect via an individual switch.
Traffic on a DSL line equates to current on an electricity supply.
Regarding the flickering, nowhere did I state or imply that this behaviour indicated that the relevant system system is "OFF".

I did say that the flickering varied as the traffic varied - but did not (intend to) imply that the "black periods" represented No Traffic.
To me they read as though you meant precisely that the communication had gone off.

Kindness isn't going to cure the world of all its awfulness but it's a good place to begin. Daisy Ridley.
My broadband basic info/help site - www.robertos.me.uk. Domains, site and mail hosting - Tsohost.
Connection - AAISP Home::1 80/20. Sync 59500/14989kbps @ 600m. - BQM

Edited by RobertoS (Sat 18-Jun-16 21:04:10)

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