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Standard User ajseeds
(newbie) Fri 07-Apr-17 12:13:40
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Central London ADSL Downgrade


[link to this post]
 
BT's downgrade to DSL speeds by closing exchanges and looping the pairs back to the last remaining exchange in an area continues. Chelsea (WRCHEL) closed last week and my broadband sync. rate went from over 14 Mb/s to 3.5 Mb/s with the pair looped back to South Kensington (WRSKEN). In the local area over the last few years we have lost Sloane Square (WRSLO), Belgravia (WRBEL), Earl's Court (WRECT), Warwick Road….. All replaced with luxury housing. The pavements are crammed with rent-free FTTC cabinets, so I can see the economic attraction, as I can see the attraction of forcing everyone to pay FTTC prices to get their broadband back. BTW Samknows is well behind on the exchange attrition with many deleted and redeveloped exchanges still shown. Are other areas affected by this?
Administrator MrSaffron
(staff) Fri 07-Apr-17 12:45:36
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Re: Central London ADSL Downgrade


[re: ajseeds] [link to this post]
 
We have not updated our ADSL estimates for those exchanges yet, but as main focus is on superfast it is not a priority and not totally straight forward. Full closure is not expected until 2018 too. This is pretty rare.

As for paying FTTC prices, providers are being given low cost installs and six months free FTTC
https://www.openreach.co.uk/orpg/home/products/prici...

So if they aren't passing this onto the consumer then maybe questions need to be asked as to why not.

The author of the above post is a thinkbroadband staff member. It may not constitute an official statement on behalf of thinkbroadband.
Standard User MHC
(sensei) Fri 07-Apr-17 13:18:32
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Re: Central London ADSL Downgrade


[re: ajseeds] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by ajseeds:
... The pavements are crammed with rent-free FTTC cabinets,



What do you mean by "rent-free"?


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

M H C


taurus excreta cerebrum vincit


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Standard User AndyHCZ
(experienced) Fri 07-Apr-17 14:26:54
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Re: Central London ADSL Downgrade


[re: ajseeds] [link to this post]
 
You live in one of the most expensive parts of the UK and don't want to pay a few extra pounds a month for FTTC?
Standard User ian72
(eat-sleep-adslguide) Fri 07-Apr-17 14:31:49
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Re: Central London ADSL Downgrade


[re: AndyHCZ] [link to this post]
 
Possibly the reason for that is due to living in one of the most expensive parts?

People who grew up in London or went to uni there may want to stay there but it doesn't mean they magically have more money but does mean they might need to cut back on other things that other areas of the country might be able to afford more easily.
Standard User AndyHCZ
(experienced) Fri 07-Apr-17 14:50:52
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Re: Central London ADSL Downgrade


[re: ian72] [link to this post]
 
Sorry but if you can afford to live in an area where the average property price is over £2,000,000 (terraced houses over £4,000,000), then you either earn or have significantly more money than the average person.

We're talking £5-10 a month extra. This is nothing to someone who can afford to live in Kensington and Chelsea.

Edited by AndyHCZ (Fri 07-Apr-17 14:52:23)

Standard User ukhardy07
(knowledge is power) Fri 07-Apr-17 15:07:59
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Re: Central London ADSL Downgrade


[re: AndyHCZ] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by AndyHCZ:
Sorry but if you can afford to live in an area where the average property price is over £2,000,000 (terraced houses over £4,000,000), then you either earn or have significantly more money than the average person.

We're talking £5-10 a month extra. This is nothing to someone who can afford to live in Kensington and Chelsea.
As a Londoner I disagree. Plenty of people earning around £2300 a month and paying £1500 to live in a 1 bed in Chelsea. Why, often because they grew up there and that's their home. For these people when transport is £150, and general living is expensive a compromise has to be made.

Edited by ukhardy07 (Fri 07-Apr-17 16:10:51)

Standard User ian72
(eat-sleep-adslguide) Fri 07-Apr-17 15:10:22
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Re: Central London ADSL Downgrade


[re: ukhardy07] [link to this post]
 
Agreed.

When rents are so high even people with good salaries may not have much left at the end of the month. Just because someone lives somewhere expensive does not mean they have lots of money (although obviously some do).

We could turn it the other way and ask what the point is of putting FTTC in to areas that have low house prices because obviously they must all be so poor that they couldn't afford it.

House price does not correlate with disposable income.
Standard User AndyHCZ
(experienced) Fri 07-Apr-17 15:32:44
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Re: Central London ADSL Downgrade


[re: ukhardy07] [link to this post]
 
Average income in Kensington & Chelsea is the highest of any area in the UK at over £160,000 a year.

There will not be many people living in Chelsea with next to no disposable income because it's "their home".
Administrator MrSaffron
(staff) Fri 07-Apr-17 15:33:54
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Re: Central London ADSL Downgrade


[re: ukhardy07] [link to this post]
 
'Let's not forget a tonne of people in Chelsea cannot get fibre also'

So which cabinets on the Chelsea exchange do not have VDSL2 available? And which postcodes cannot get superfast on WRCHEL?

The author of the above post is a thinkbroadband staff member. It may not constitute an official statement on behalf of thinkbroadband.
Standard User AndyHCZ
(experienced) Fri 07-Apr-17 15:41:10
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Re: Central London ADSL Downgrade


[re: ian72] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by ian72:
House price does not correlate with disposable income.


So explain why the area with the highest property prices in the UK is the same area with the highest average disposable income per head?

https://www.ons.gov.uk/economy/inflationandpriceindi...

https://www.ons.gov.uk/economy/regionalaccounts/gros...
Standard User AndyHCZ
(experienced) Fri 07-Apr-17 15:46:28
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Re: Central London ADSL Downgrade


[re: AndyHCZ] [link to this post]
 
I should have added that Openreach has been running a special offer for those on Chelsea exchange, with free FTTC for 6 months (which I believe has possibly been extended now) and free installation.

Obviously it's up to ISPs to pass this on and I have no idea if any have.
Standard User ian72
(eat-sleep-adslguide) Fri 07-Apr-17 15:52:14
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Re: Central London ADSL Downgrade


[re: AndyHCZ] [link to this post]
 
You are taking averages and assuming therefore that it applies to the OP. I am pointing out that is not necessarily the case as none of us know the OPs financial position. You just assume that because the average is high that they must be able to afford it.
Standard User AndyHCZ
(experienced) Fri 07-Apr-17 15:57:51
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Re: Central London ADSL Downgrade


[re: ian72] [link to this post]
 
I am pointing out house price is highly correlated to disposable income.

No one is forced to live in the most expensive area in the UK. Internet access is regarded as a basic utility these days, like water and electricity. If you cannot afford internet access because you are living in the most expensive area in the UK, then I cannot show much sympathy because someone lives beyond their means.
Standard User TheEulerID
(experienced) Fri 07-Apr-17 15:58:05
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Re: Central London ADSL Downgrade


[re: ajseeds] [link to this post]
 
OpenReach are under continuous regulatory pressure to reduce costs. Wholesale line costs are reducing in real terms, FTTC 40/10 prices are to be reduced by 40%. All against a background where there are major business rates increases, especially in expensive parts of the UK, like central London, where they are sky-rocketing.

Having fewer exchanges will also reduce costs for other operators too. You have faster alternatives, which may cost a few quid more (which ought to reduce as FTTC wholesale prices go down). Get used to it. Economic logic and regulatory pressures push things that way.
Standard User WilliamGrimsley
(experienced) Fri 07-Apr-17 16:04:47
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Re: Central London ADSL Downgrade


[re: ajseeds] [link to this post]
 
Why is this happening, BTW? Is it cost related? Why would exchanges be shutting down? How would the phone number still work if the line was routed to another exchange?

Sync: 34590/7863 Kbps.

Edited by WilliamGrimsley (Fri 07-Apr-17 16:05:14)

Standard User AndyHCZ
(experienced) Fri 07-Apr-17 16:05:18
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Re: Central London ADSL Downgrade


[re: TheEulerID] [link to this post]
 
The landlord did not renew the lease for BT for the Chelsea exchange, so their hands were tied. This has happened multiple times in London where the freehold owner can redevelop the site into commercial/residential property and see a far greater return on their asset.
Standard User ukhardy07
(knowledge is power) Fri 07-Apr-17 16:11:49
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Re: Central London ADSL Downgrade


[re: MrSaffron] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by MrSaffron:
'Let's not forget a tonne of people in Chelsea cannot get fibre also'

So which cabinets on the Chelsea exchange do not have VDSL2 available? And which postcodes cannot get superfast on WRCHEL?
Have edited the post as it was misleading, I have a couple of friends who are unable to get fibre. This granted was when they moved in a year ago, and they are south ken. EO line.
Administrator MrSaffron
(staff) Fri 07-Apr-17 16:12:22
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Re: Central London ADSL Downgrade


[re: WilliamGrimsley] [link to this post]
 
When your landlord decides not to renew your lease you do not have much choice.

The author of the above post is a thinkbroadband staff member. It may not constitute an official statement on behalf of thinkbroadband.
Administrator MrSaffron
(staff) Fri 07-Apr-17 16:14:11
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Re: Central London ADSL Downgrade


[re: ukhardy07] [link to this post]
 
WRSKEN exchange does still have EO lines, and also cabinets without VDSL2

The author of the above post is a thinkbroadband staff member. It may not constitute an official statement on behalf of thinkbroadband.
Administrator MrSaffron
(staff) Fri 07-Apr-17 16:14:57
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Re: Central London ADSL Downgrade


[re: AndyHCZ] [link to this post]
 
Linked to offer page earlier and it runs to end of Sept 2017 currently

The author of the above post is a thinkbroadband staff member. It may not constitute an official statement on behalf of thinkbroadband.
Standard User Oliver341
(eat-sleep-adslguide) Fri 07-Apr-17 16:15:59
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Re: Central London ADSL Downgrade


[re: MrSaffron] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by MrSaffron:
When your landlord decides not to renew your lease you do not have much choice.

It's lucky then that Openreach could make alternative arrangements, but what if the landlord wished to evict Openreach from an exchange which was "critical"? What protection does Openreach have?

Oliver.
Standard User WilliamGrimsley
(experienced) Fri 07-Apr-17 16:16:55
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Re: Central London ADSL Downgrade


[re: MrSaffron] [link to this post]
 
Aha, didn't think of that. Bah, understood. Is this a common occurence then? I didn't realise there was a possibility of exchanges shutting down across the country. I guess when other operators decide to take on Openreach further and start to dominate the country's network infrastructure, there may not be as much of a need for exchanges.

Router in use: Billion BiPAC 8800AXL.

Edited by WilliamGrimsley (Fri 07-Apr-17 16:18:53)

Standard User AndyHCZ
(experienced) Fri 07-Apr-17 16:52:30
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Re: Central London ADSL Downgrade


[re: Oliver341] [link to this post]
 
You can only terminate a commercial lease when the tenant does not pay the rent or meet their obligations. BT will clearly pay the rent and meet its obligations.

Most BT exchange leases will be lengthy, 20-30+ years will not be uncommon.
Standard User Oliver341
(eat-sleep-adslguide) Fri 07-Apr-17 16:59:26
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Re: Central London ADSL Downgrade


[re: AndyHCZ] [link to this post]
 
But there may be exchanges where the landlord decides not to renew the lease and Openreach is not able to make alternative arrangements. What then?

Oliver.
Standard User AndyHCZ
(experienced) Fri 07-Apr-17 17:30:22
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Re: Central London ADSL Downgrade


[re: Oliver341] [link to this post]
 
Commercial property is generally quite attractive with higher yields than residential property. Telephone exchanges are quite unique as they have a very limited audience that would want to lease them.

Negotiations over renewal will happen quite a long time before the lease is due to end. In 99.99% of cases, the landlord will renew the commercial lease with Openreach.

London is a bit different as some exchanges will have more re-development value than the yield from a lease. It's very rare to happen, but it's happened several times now in London. Openreach will have plenty of warning to make alternative arrangements.
Standard User MHC
(sensei) Fri 07-Apr-17 17:39:06
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Re: Central London ADSL Downgrade


[re: AndyHCZ] [link to this post]
 
And in some critical cases BT own the property and it is not leased.

There was one, in London where BT wanted to sell off the above ground side and the purchasers had to agree that the existing basement and foundation needed to remain stable. Calculations demonstrated that if the building above was removed, the underground portion would rise by something like 200 to 400mm and that could result in the cables being severed! The sale did not go ahead.


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

M H C


taurus excreta cerebrum vincit
Standard User TheEulerID
(experienced) Fri 07-Apr-17 17:42:58
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Re: Central London ADSL Downgrade


[re: AndyHCZ] [link to this post]
 
Even more reason then. But the principle holds. Exchanges will close, especially when voice services can be supported from cabinets.
Administrator MrSaffron
(staff) Fri 07-Apr-17 17:45:16
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Re: Central London ADSL Downgrade


[re: WilliamGrimsley] [link to this post]
 
You only need to look at GEA handover locations to realise that the plan to move out of a large number of exchanges once voice is all IP based is just a case of when not if.

Though conversely with the growth of regional data centres there may be life for exchanges as nodes hosting CDN hardware to handle multicasting of TV and on demand without placing undue stress on core networks.

LLU suites in exchanges mean many are busier than they would be if LLU had never happened.

The author of the above post is a thinkbroadband staff member. It may not constitute an official statement on behalf of thinkbroadband.
Standard User TheEulerID
(experienced) Fri 07-Apr-17 17:50:11
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Re: Central London ADSL Downgrade


[re: AndyHCZ] [link to this post]
 
Even if it was 20-30 years, it would still be an enormous problem given the many of thousands of exchanges. However, I seem to recall that when BT did that sell-off and lease-back arrangement back when they were in a financial hole after the 3G auctions and telco stocks crashed, that protection was built into the contracts as the regulator at the time (Oftel was it) insisted. I think there may also have been a few cases which were prior to that, and maybe this is one of them.

In any event, I doubt very much the government would stand by and see the country's comms network collapse because landowners felt they could get a better rate of return redeveloping buildings as flats or shops.
Standard User Chrysalis
(legend) Fri 07-Apr-17 20:16:47
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Re: Central London ADSL Downgrade


[re: AndyHCZ] [link to this post]
 
I agree with you O_o

Seems OP has vanished I guess not wanting to explain why they wont pay for FTTC, but I think as long as FTTC is available in these areas then the closure of exchanges is ok.

My only issue is perhaps the handling of the situation would be better e.g. migrating people over to FTTC who are confirmed to have a significant drop in service spec at equal price point for a grace period such as 6-12 months.

If it just happened and the end user was not contacted at all so out of the blue line rate drops to 25% of previous performance then thats not a good process.

Sky Fibre Pro BQM - IPv4 BQM - IPv6
Standard User kitcat
(experienced) Fri 07-Apr-17 20:59:54
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Re: Central London ADSL Downgrade


[re: Chrysalis] [link to this post]
 
Chrysalis
AS Andrews post says higher up, offers are there for free FTTC service for x months.

However OR cannot contact customers direct and some ISPs are not as effective or honest about offering the deal to their customers.

CP / ISPs were informed about the closure at least 2 years ago with all the affects this would have on BB speed and the offered solutions. They could all have taken this on board if they wanted to.

Practically all lines on Chelsea will have worse ADSL performance due to the distance to S Ken being greater than the distance to Chelsea. (A map will tell you this)

Originally Ken & Chelsea refused to allow any FTTC at all due to their conservation status when FTTC was first being rolled out. It was only when residents banded together against the council stance that they changed their minds! Customers would then have been in a really bad BB area especially in the S.West area along the Thames where distance would have been multiple miles.
Standard User kitcat
(experienced) Fri 07-Apr-17 21:07:03
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Re: Central London ADSL Downgrade


[re: WilliamGrimsley] [link to this post]
 
WilliamG

The phone number will still work as the Equipment is 'Cloned' in the new building and the lines then moved from the old exchange to the new equipment. When all the lines have been moved the old equipment can be removed.

In technical terms you just change the equipment number giving service to the line and connect the local pair to the new equipment. This can be set up in advance at the cabinet / manhole so the change can be done very quickly. ( Robotic code to change the software and reconnect to the previously identified pair.). This is what is now going on Cab / Manhole by manhole, the whole area will take several years end to end.
Standard User ukhardy07
(knowledge is power) Fri 07-Apr-17 23:44:41
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Re: Central London ADSL Downgrade


[re: WilliamGrimsley] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by WilliamGrimsley:
Aha, didn't think of that. Bah, understood. Is this a common occurence then? I didn't realise there was a possibility of exchanges shutting down across the country. I guess when other operators decide to take on Openreach further and start to dominate the country's network infrastructure, there may not be as much of a need for exchanges.
Not massively common, just as many have mentioned Chelsea has some of the most expensive property in the UK. Investment wise the landlord will have likely made flats or something similar (guessing)... I am in Chelsea in a couple of weeks and I will take a look where the exchange used to be to see what's there now - anybody know?

Where I live, Shepherd's Bush, there is plenty of EO lines. My actual address has 2 master phone sockets, one of the lines is registered to "Top Floor Flat, then my address" and that is EO. If you lookup my address by the flat Letter "Flat C, then my address" that brings up the other master which isn't EO.

I have one line which enters by the front door, then is pinned to the stairs all the way upto the flat. This ones fibre ready and a newer master socket.

I have another line where the cables go under the floorboards and then off to somewhere else (no idea where). This ones EO with no fibre.

I feel like the EO one predates the property being split into flats as it had one of these 1950s phones connected up.

Point is even in London not everyone can get fibre. Parts of east London are quite bad as well.

Edited by ukhardy07 (Fri 07-Apr-17 23:48:17)

Standard User kitcat
(experienced) Sat 08-Apr-17 21:44:58
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Re: Central London ADSL Downgrade


[re: ukhardy07] [link to this post]
 
ukhardy

The exchange will still be there, it will take another year or so to move all the customers across to S Ken building and empty the equipment out from the building. Once that is finished it is up to the landlord what he is going to do. Best place to find out is planning dept of the council.

Building could just be converted to apartments which is likely to be easier than demolition and rebuilding. The frontage looks like a residential building already and the structure is likely to be very strong to take the weight of the original telephone equipment.
Standard User zom22
(member) Sat 08-Apr-17 22:32:21
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Re: Central London ADSL Downgrade


[re: AndyHCZ] [link to this post]
 
Andy - on this point you way off beam.
..and this equally applies to house prices in rural areas
I live in one such "desirable" rural area such that house prices have in recent decades shot up.
I could never afford on my salary in my job sector to buy a house here had I not had the luck and good fortune to already be an owner way before it became an uber-wealthy area.

The result is that NEW incoming owners today are indeed very wealthy to be able to buy the properties such that broadband whether that is ADSL2+ or FTTC is frankly chickenfeed. They have to be very wealthy of have seriously high power jobs to (as you say) afford to live here.

However to EXISTING owners (who are the majority) whose incomes are basically the same allowing for inflation as they were decades ago with no mortgage anymore, the current (absurd!) prices of the local houses is a total irrelevance to the affordability or otherwise to them of any particular service or product - Broadband being one.
Meanwhile they (eg myself) can afford quite easily to continue to live here.

Ironically it is because the existing owners are in the majority and are staying put is precisely the reason why the house prices locally have risen so much - because desirable properties come on the market so rarely.
Standard User Chrysalis
(legend) Sun 09-Apr-17 02:51:30
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Re: Central London ADSL Downgrade


[re: kitcat] [link to this post]
 
another reason why openreach cannot deal with end users direct is so stupid.

Sky Fibre Pro BQM - IPv4 BQM - IPv6
Standard User ajseeds
(newbie) Sun 09-Apr-17 10:20:38
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Re: Central London ADSL Downgrade


[re: MrSaffron] [link to this post]
 
Thanks, all, for your comments.

A few points in response:

1. BT's claim that it has to close the exchanges because the leases have run out. This is disingenuous- BT like any other commercial leaseholder has the right to extend the lease under the Landlord and Tenant Act 1954. However, in high land value areas, doing a deal with the freeholder to relinquish the lease in return for a share of the redevelopment profits can be attractive.

2. Chelsea is inhabited only by rich people who would not notice the cost of transferring to FTTC. This belief may have come from too much viewing of "Made in Chelsea", but is incorrect. Take a look at the 2011 Census data for Kensington and Chelsea. The borough contains extremes of wealth and poverty, child poverty percentage is 24.8%. There are still people thousands of people hanging on in public housing who have yet to be redeveloped and sent to other parts of the country. My local church is providing free food to people and they are in desperate need of it.

3. My claim that Cabinets are placed on the footway, rent free. If I am incorrect on this, please supply details of what rent is paid and to whom.

4. ISPs are offering reduced priced FTTC to people affected. Not so. My DSL simply dropped rate as it was moved to WRSKEN and latency went up to 120ms, as the Talk Talk there seems not to have been sufficiently provisioned to cope. Nothing heard from the ISP (Post Office) whatsoever.
Standard User AndyHCZ
(experienced) Sun 09-Apr-17 11:14:40
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Re: Central London ADSL Downgrade


[re: ajseeds] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by ajseeds:
1. BT's claim that it has to close the exchanges because the leases have run out. This is disingenuous- BT like any other commercial leaseholder has the right to extend the lease under the Landlord and Tenant Act 1954. However, in high land value areas, doing a deal with the freeholder to relinquish the lease in return for a share of the redevelopment profits can be attractive.


We do not know whether the leasehold was contracted under the Landlord and Tenant Act 1954 nor do we know the reasons why Openreach "were asked to leave" the property.

Whilst the business has the right to extend a lease upon expiration, the landlord equally has the right to object to the renewal. If the leasehold was contracted under the LTA, then it is likely the landlord would have sought possession either to demolish/reconstruct or to occupy the premises himself.

In reply to a post by ajseeds:
2. Chelsea is inhabited only by rich people who would not notice the cost of transferring to FTTC. This belief may have come from too much viewing of "Made in Chelsea", but is incorrect. Take a look at the 2011 Census data for Kensington and Chelsea. The borough contains extremes of wealth and poverty, child poverty percentage is 24.8%. There are still people thousands of people hanging on in public housing who have yet to be redeveloped and sent to other parts of the country. My local church is providing free food to people and they are in desperate need of it.


No one has stated that Chelsea is only inhabited by rich people, but the fact is that it is the most affluent area in the country. People earn the most in Chelsea, properties are the highest value in the country and rental costs are also the highest in the country.

We're talking about broadband which is virtually an essential service for many households. £5-10 a month is a relatively small amount in this context.

In reply to a post by ajseeds:
3. My claim that Cabinets are placed on the footway, rent free. If I am incorrect on this, please supply details of what rent is paid and to whom.


BT pays business rates on its network assets (over £700m a year now).

In reply to a post by ajseeds:
4. ISPs are offering reduced priced FTTC to people affected. Not so. My DSL simply dropped rate as it was moved to WRSKEN and latency went up to 120ms, as the Talk Talk there seems not to have been sufficiently provisioned to cope. Nothing heard from the ISP (Post Office) whatsoever.


The Post Office still do not offer FTTC. There are plenty of ISPs that offer FTTC and you could have moved and paid less (with an offer) than you do now for a fibre service.
Standard User David_W
(knowledge is power) Sun 09-Apr-17 11:15:14
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Re: Central London ADSL Downgrade


[re: ajseeds] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by ajseeds:
1. BT's claim that it has to close the exchanges because the leases have run out. This is disingenuous- BT like any other commercial leaseholder has the right to extend the lease under the Landlord and Tenant Act 1954. However, in high land value areas, doing a deal with the freeholder to relinquish the lease in return for a share of the redevelopment profits can be attractive.
As I understand it, this right to extend does not extend to a right at a particular level of rent. I expect that any approach from BT about extending these leases was met with the reply that the landlord was not prepared to accept a rent not commensurate with the current open market valuation of the site. As the future direction of telecommunications infrastructure gives huge scope for consolidation of sites and, in high density areas such as central London, the costs of exiting these sites is a modest one-off cost (especially any metallic pair network rearrangement), it would be crazy for BT to lock themselves into a greatly increased rent over a long lease. Such an increase in opex ties up money that could be more fruitfully spent on capex on network improvements such as filling in FTTx 'not spots' (of which, as you say, there are still a lot in London, especially in areas with network topology challenges such as EO lines).

The disproportionate effects of exiting these sites fall primarily on ADSL customers - those who do not have access to or cannot afford FTTx. ADSL remains an important technology for now, but will continue to fade in importance as deployment of and advances in deeper fibre technologies such as FTTC continue. These deeper fibre technologies have been deployed with dependence on a much lower number of exchanges than the legacy metallic pair network.

Sadly, nothing can be done about the increased E side attenuation and consequential drop in ADSL sync speed. The huge leap in latency you report is strongly suggestive on underprovisioning and will hopefully be corrected in time. You are in something of a 'worst case' scenario, with an inexpensive ISP that is not known for customer support and service.



ZeN Unlimited Fibre 2 with native IPv6
thinkbroadband speed test : speedtest.net : thinkbroadband quality monitor IPv4 IPv6
Standard User kitcat
(experienced) Sun 09-Apr-17 21:46:06
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Re: Central London ADSL Downgrade


[re: David_W] [link to this post]
 
David W
the costs of exiting these sites is a modest one-off cost


The metallic pair rearrangement is hardly modest from the information made public (Multi £m), but would still be cost effective if the rent went up enough. Once the existing lease is finished the landlord can basically raise the rent to astronomical levels enough to force any tenant out over time.

The issue with the OP is that they are with an ISP that doesn't provide FTTC and therefore was/is not interested in any offer OR have made. His way out is to leave and take a FTTC service from any ISP that provides one.

This is the same issue that affects all those people complaining about slow BB that will not upgrade from ADSL to FTTC/P in other parts of the country. Better services are available to many BUT people won't change either due to cost or cussedness.

The disproportionate effects do fall on ADSL customers BUT that is why OR have made the offers of FREE for x months rental to migrating customers. This is also part of the cost of exiting the building.
Standard User kitcat
(experienced) Sun 09-Apr-17 21:56:08
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Re: Central London ADSL Downgrade


[re: ajseeds] [link to this post]
 
ajseeds

The lease may already have been extended to give time to exit the building. The landlord can also increase the rent once the lease has run out and this may prove prohibitive forcing the move out. Example:- If you landlord doubled your rent over 5 years would you stay put especially if you knew it would double every 5 years until you moved.
Standard User RobertoS
(elder) Sun 09-Apr-17 21:59:38
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Re: Central London ADSL Downgrade


[re: kitcat] [link to this post]
 
I haven't checked - are there any ISPs offering 18/2 FTTC yet in these circumstances do you know? It seems to be what it was introduced for.

Kindness isn't going to cure the world of all its awfulness but it's a good place to begin. Daisy Ridley.
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Standard User RobertoS
(elder) Sun 09-Apr-17 22:11:17
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Re: Central London ADSL Downgrade


[re: AndyHCZ] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by AndyHCZ:
I should have added that Openreach has been running a special offer for those on Chelsea exchange, with free FTTC for 6 months (which I believe has possibly been extended now) and free installation.

Obviously it's up to ISPs to pass this on and I have no idea if any have.
Chelsea, Openreach special offer extensions to 30 Sept, including 18/2 FTTC. (The dark blues for those not familiar with OR price displays).

Interestingly the only one not rental-free is the 18/2.

Kindness isn't going to cure the world of all its awfulness but it's a good place to begin. Daisy Ridley.
My broadband basic info/help site - www.robertos.me.uk. Domains, site and mail hosting - Tsohost.
Connection - AAISP Home::1 80/20. Sync 63790/13596Kbps @ 600m. BQMs - IPv4 & IPv6
Standard User David_W
(knowledge is power) Sun 09-Apr-17 22:48:16
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Re: Central London ADSL Downgrade


[re: kitcat] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by kitcat:
The metallic pair rearrangement is hardly modest from the information made public (Multi £m), but would still be cost effective if the rent went up enough. Once the existing lease is finished the landlord can basically raise the rent to astronomical levels enough to force any tenant out over time.
Apologies for the inexact language I used. I meant "modest in relation to the whole lease rental costs for a building for which there is no ongoing operational necessity now and which is of no ongoing technical benefit once ADSL from the exchange is obsolete". If the landlord wants market rent for a building in Chelsea, and - pulling a figure from the air but with some thought to alternative commercial or residential opportunities if BT vacated the site - insists on a minimum 25 year term for any renewed lease, a multi-million one-off cost to exit is likely modest compared the opex of the rent alone. If you add on the opex savings from operating one less site as well as any possible sweeteners the landlord offered BT to quit, the decision to quit is obvious.

Though the additional E side length is unfortunate, the direction of travel is clear. E side metallic pairs might become obsolete before the rest of the metallic pair network. It will be interesting to see how CPs respond once SOGEA is a live product and they can order 'naked' FTTC without an E side pair; this might drive a push towards VoIP based voice.

I believe everyone in the coverage area of the former Chelsea exchange now has FTTx available; certainly Openreach intended to upgrade all unserved areas as part of the closure of the exchange. Indeed, it is possible that the cabling works required on the former EO lines to provide FTTC or even the entire costs of all the FTTC upgrades were included in the millions of pounds quoted for network rearrangement.



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Administrator MrSaffron
(staff) Sun 09-Apr-17 23:49:39
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Re: Central London ADSL Downgrade


[re: David_W] [link to this post]
 
If you are with, or move to a provider that sells FTTC services (hint original poster needs to that, there is a good reason Post Office is at the bottom of the speed test results if it even makes it to the table) then I believe all the lines in Chelsea have FTTC as an option now.

Some new build near the Thames recently went live with a few cabinets.

The author of the above post is a thinkbroadband staff member. It may not constitute an official statement on behalf of thinkbroadband.
Standard User ajseeds
(newbie) Wed 12-Apr-17 23:22:58
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Re: Central London ADSL Downgrade


[re: AndyHCZ] [link to this post]
 
Thanks for further comments.

1. On the WRCHEL lease. In fact the leases in this area mainly expired around 2010. In 2012 BT took a further lease, expiring 28 September 2020. Not sure that the parties can contract out of the provisions of the Landlord and Tenant Act 1954. Where there is a dispute on the new rent both parties generally call in their expert valuation evidence and eventually a deal is done.

The landlord is the Trustees of the Sloane Stanley Estate and I do not think that any of the Trustees are in such straitened circumstances as to wish to live in a telephone exchange, even one located in Chelsea.

3. My company would be quite pleased with an arrangement where it can occupy space at zero rent, paying only business rates on it.

As for FTTC round here, I have heard from Openreach today that one of my other lines, which has an intermittent battery fault, must await replacement of a piece of damaged 50 pair before good service can resume. We'll see how long that takes to achieve.
Administrator MrSaffron
(staff) Thu 13-Apr-17 00:12:40
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Re: Central London ADSL Downgrade


[re: ajseeds] [link to this post]
 
Perhaps if the cabinets were on lifts so could sink down into the pavement there would be less objection? Out of sight, out of mind?

Or if rent is the real issue, on top of the forthcoming business rates increase, what would be a fair rent for a VDSL2 cabinet?

Edited by MrSaffron (Thu 13-Apr-17 00:13:58)

The author of the above post is a thinkbroadband staff member. It may not constitute an official statement on behalf of thinkbroadband.
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