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Standard User Hawthorns
(committed) Sat 16-Sep-17 11:00:43
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Suspect master socket wiring


[link to this post]
 
I moved just under a year ago to a house where I knew the broadband was poor but just about tolerable. Last week I got round to seeing if I could increase what little speed I have so as a first step tried to plug the router (a BT HH4) into the test socket. That's where it started to go pear-shaped...

I found the master socket and unscrewed the lower half of the faceplate to get to the test socket. At this stage I noticed two things: the master socket was hanging off the wall and there were two extra wires going in to the back of the socket. One was to a socket that the router was plugged into and the other was to internal wiring to at least one extension socket.

Disturbing the master socket has dropped my sync speed from 2048/448 (slow but stuff worked) to 1120/448 where applications get time-outs. Finally, we're rumoured to be getting FTTP next year at which time this will, I hope, become irrelevant.

So I conclude that a previous owner has gone for some cheap and nasty wiring rather than having the job done properly and now I'm stuck with it. I either live with it or get BT to sort it.

Now my question. Is this likely to be covered by the £129.99 engineer call-out that I see on the BT website? At one time I seem to remember that BT wouldn't charge if it was rectification of bodges by a previous owner but I'm not holding my breath for that.

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Administrator MrSaffron
(staff) Sat 16-Sep-17 12:38:41
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Re: Suspect master socket wiring


[re: Hawthorns] [link to this post]
 
The days of no charges were when things were more integrated with each division standing more on its own, the books have to show cost recovery etc etc

When using the test socket are any other phone sockets in the home working? If yes then you have dodgy wiring. If the test socket is the only thing left working, likely you disturbed the incoming wiring and might need a fiddle to resolve - first double check a phone works still.

Charges for fixing extension wiring are the norm now, since the public is considered responsible for its extension wiring even if was a previous resident. If you disturbed the incoming wiring and they need to fix it then chargeable again.

The author of the above post is a thinkbroadband staff member. It may not constitute an official statement on behalf of thinkbroadband.
Standard User MHC
(sensei) Sat 16-Sep-17 12:39:27
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Re: Suspect master socket wiring


[re: Hawthorns] [link to this post]
 
The other option is to do it yourself with advice from here.

Get some pictures of what you have including close-ups of the wiring and wire type, host them at an appropriate location and then provide links here.

Someone will then gide you through step-by-step on what to do.


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

M H C


taurus excreta cerebrum vincit


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Standard User RobertoS
(elder) Sat 16-Sep-17 22:57:52
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Re: Suspect master socket wiring


[re: Hawthorns] [link to this post]
 
These two wires into the back, do you mean to the faceplate that you had removed? Or to some part of the body that you say is also hanging off the wall?

My broadband basic info/help site - www.robertos.me.uk. Domains, site and mail hosting - Tsohost.
Connection - AAISP Home::1 80/20. 200GB. Sync 72313/12530Kbps @ 600m. BQMs - IPv4 & IPv6
Standard User Zarjaz
(eat-sleep-adslguide) Sun 17-Sep-17 09:58:59
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Re: Suspect master socket wiring


[re: Hawthorns] [link to this post]
 
Ring BT, and see if you can get a 'Boost' visit from Openreach ?

Standard User Hawthorns
(committed) Sun 17-Sep-17 11:06:04
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Re: Suspect master socket wiring


[re: RobertoS] [link to this post]
 
I had another look yesterday to get some pictures. Unfortunately, every time I touch the socket my connection speed drops!

To clarify, from the wall out I have:

1. External block wall
2. Body of NTE5
3. What looks like an I-plate
4. Lower faceplate

The two wires I mentioned actually go in between 1 and 2. One is to my router and the other to internal phone wiring. I have little confidence in the quality of the internal phone wiring.

Photo here? https://www.dropbox.com/s/ru46l2a4d1pgsym/2017-09-15...

Thanks for the replies, by the way. Much appreciated.

BT Option 3
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Standard User Zarjaz
(eat-sleep-adslguide) Sun 17-Sep-17 14:06:31
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Re: Suspect master socket wiring


[re: Hawthorns] [link to this post]
 
OK, that's a faceplate filter, the RJ11 lead between your router and it should be connected to the smaller hole at the top of the socket.... was this how you were connected previously ?

A couple more pictures of what's terminated where on the insides of that socket would be useful too.

Standard User 4M2
(knowledge is power) Sun 17-Sep-17 15:23:04
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Re: Suspect master socket wiring


[re: Hawthorns] [link to this post]
 
Has the voice (?) extension been incorrectly connected to the unfiltered terminals on the Mk3 plate rather than to the terminals on the outer, bottom, phone socket plate?
Administrator MrSaffron
(staff) Sun 17-Sep-17 15:37:08
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Re: Suspect master socket wiring


[re: Zarjaz] [link to this post]
 
If theory there should be no broadband if the lead in the photo is heading off to a modem, but something very slow and unstable might be possible if using the voice socket for the data

The author of the above post is a thinkbroadband staff member. It may not constitute an official statement on behalf of thinkbroadband.
Standard User Zarjaz
(eat-sleep-adslguide) Sun 17-Sep-17 15:51:51
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Re: Suspect master socket wiring


[re: MrSaffron] [link to this post]
 
Yep, agreed.

Wouldn't it be marvellous if stats when connected to the right socket revealed a whopping increase ..

To the OP, do you have any current line stats please ?

Standard User Hawthorns
(committed) Sun 17-Sep-17 19:32:20
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Re: Suspect master socket wiring


[re: Zarjaz] [link to this post]
 
I've been noting the line stats over the past few days from the Home Hub's event logs. The latest is

DSL Link Up: Down Rate=1856Kbps, Up Rate=448Kbps; SNR Margin Down=6.9dB, Up=10.0dB

which is better than it has been. I've generally seen SNR margins in a similar range which I assume is the range that the router is happy with and that the link speed will vary rather than the SNR margin.

I plan to plug in a Netgear D7000 router tomorrow to get line error rates.

BT Option 3
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Standard User Hawthorns
(committed) Sun 17-Sep-17 19:40:18
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Re: Suspect master socket wiring


[re: Zarjaz] [link to this post]
 
A photo of the inside wiring. One for a rogue's gallery?

https://www.dropbox.com/s/iny5jnzxz0mke0s/2017-09-16...

Note that the plug going into the faceplate is NOT to the router, it's to a corded phone. The router plugs into a extension socket which is on one of the wires going into the back of the master socket.

BT Option 3
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Edited by Hawthorns (Sun 17-Sep-17 23:34:36)

Standard User ukhardy07
(knowledge is power) Sun 17-Sep-17 19:42:39
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Re: Suspect master socket wiring


[re: Hawthorns] [link to this post]
 
Are you London based if so happy to swing and help?

On those pictures I can't understand where the router is connecting? Is it hard wired into the socket? If so likely a cowboy job
Standard User Zarjaz
(eat-sleep-adslguide) Sun 17-Sep-17 19:49:26
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Re: Suspect master socket wiring


[re: Hawthorns] [link to this post]
 
Note that the RJ11 going into the faceplate is NOT the router, it's to a corded phone. The router plugs into a extension socket which is on one of the wires going into the back of the master socket.

Unless the router is connected via a data extension kit, it's set up wrong.

With the face plate removed, as per your second photo, there should be NO dialling tone present on any extension, and no sync on the router .... is this correct ?

Standard User Zarjaz
(eat-sleep-adslguide) Sun 17-Sep-17 19:50:38
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Re: Suspect master socket wiring


[re: Hawthorns] [link to this post]
 
Attenuation also would be helpful to see ....

Standard User Zarjaz
(eat-sleep-adslguide) Sun 17-Sep-17 19:52:01
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Re: Suspect master socket wiring


[re: ukhardy07] [link to this post]
 
Are you London based if so happy to swing and help?

Profile for Hawthorns
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Name Nigel Morton
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Total Posts 279
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Location Turton, Lancashire
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Registered on Tue 21-Oct-03 22:08:34

Nowhere near me either.

Standard User 4M2
(knowledge is power) Sun 17-Sep-17 20:04:18
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Re: Suspect master socket wiring


[re: Hawthorns] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by Hawthorns:
A photo of the inside wiring. One for a rogue's gallery?

https://www.dropbox.com/s/iny5jnzxz0mke0s/2017-09-16...

Note that the RJ11 going into the faceplate is NOT the router, it's to a corded phone. The router plugs into a extension socket which is on one of the wires going into the back of the master socket.


Looks like you may have unfiltered extensions (blue/white and white/blue wires) connected to the A&B terminals on the Mk3 plate. If you are connecting the router to an extension socket via a dangly microfilter then you will need only one unfiltered extension.
Standard User Hawthorns
(committed) Sun 17-Sep-17 23:42:00
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Re: Suspect master socket wiring


[re: Zarjaz] [link to this post]
 
Not London-based and the profile's well out of date. I actually live in Northumberland now. I believe that's some way outside Zone 1...

More stats tomorrow, hopefully.

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Standard User BrianC1
(newbie) Mon 18-Sep-17 12:58:01
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Re: Suspect master socket wiring


[re: Hawthorns] [link to this post]
 
If that were mine, I'd be tempted to cut every wire apart from the one coming in from outside and then plug the router into the top hole and my cordless phone base into the bottom hole. I would, of course, make sure none of the exposed conductors are touching anything.
Standard User 4M2
(knowledge is power) Mon 18-Sep-17 13:46:49
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Re: Suspect master socket wiring


[re: BrianC1] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by BrianC1:
If that were mine, I'd be tempted to cut every wire apart from the one coming in from outside and then plug the router into the top hole and my cordless phone base into the bottom hole. I would, of course, make sure none of the exposed conductors are touching anything.


I think you are perhaps tending to assume that the extension(s) is(are) perhaps terminated at the back of the NTE5A along with the "wire...coming in from outside". If they are then it would certainly be a job for an Openreach engineer or other authorised person to fix. Advising someone to start chopping wires without knowing how they are terminated could result in serious consequences.
Standard User Hawthorns
(committed) Mon 18-Sep-17 14:13:53
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Re: Suspect master socket wiring


[re: Hawthorns] [link to this post]
 
Line stats from a Netgear D7000 which I've plugged in instead of the Home Hub 4:

Downstream
2016 kbps
62.5 dB attenuation
5.9 dB noise margin

Upstream
448 kbps
31.5 dB
10.0 dB noise margin

I'm leaving it for a while to see how the statistics change.

BT Option 3
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Standard User Hawthorns
(committed) Mon 18-Sep-17 14:19:35
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Re: Suspect master socket wiring


[re: 4M2] [link to this post]
 
BrianC1's assumption seems to be spot on to me.

I'm still of the belief that John Wayne did the wiring.

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Standard User 4M2
(knowledge is power) Mon 18-Sep-17 14:39:15
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Re: Suspect master socket wiring


[re: Hawthorns] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by Hawthorns:
BrianC1's assumption seems to be spot on to me.

I'm still of the belief that John Wayne did the wiring.


John Wayne may have just connected 2 unfiltered extensions to the A&B terminals on the Mk3 faceplate though smile
Standard User Realalemadrid
(member) Mon 18-Sep-17 14:50:28
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Re: Suspect master socket wiring


[re: Hawthorns] [link to this post]
 
I you are not doing anything to it why do you expect the stats to change. At no point in this thread have you described how these cables sprouting out from the Master socket are connected. Your stats show a pretty long line so you may not get much improvement in speed even with optimal wiring..
Administrator MrSaffron
(staff) Mon 18-Sep-17 15:19:26
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Re: Suspect master socket wiring


[re: 4M2] [link to this post]
 
And if IDC connections are used no need to go around cutting wires either just remove from the IDC

The author of the above post is a thinkbroadband staff member. It may not constitute an official statement on behalf of thinkbroadband.
Standard User Hawthorns
(committed) Mon 18-Sep-17 15:27:30
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Re: Suspect master socket wiring


[re: Realalemadrid] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by Realalemadrid:
I you are not doing anything to it why do you expect the stats to change. At no point in this thread have you described how these cables sprouting out from the Master socket are connected. Your stats show a pretty long line so you may not get much improvement in speed even with optimal wiring..


I described where the sprouting cables go in the first post - one to the router and one to internal phone wiring.

I know I have a long line. That's why I hoped to see if there was anything I could do to squeeze out another half meg so my plans were to check whether the router was attached optimally and whether a change of router might help. Instead I appear to have opened a master socket of worms.

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Standard User ukhardy07
(knowledge is power) Mon 18-Sep-17 15:45:37
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Re: Suspect master socket wiring


[re: Hawthorns] [link to this post]
 
I described where the sprouting cables go in the first post - one to the router and one to internal phone wiring.
Which is a weird setup, can you take pics of the wiring where it connects?
Standard User 4M2
(knowledge is power) Mon 18-Sep-17 16:09:09
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Re: Suspect master socket wiring


[re: MrSaffron] [link to this post]
 
I suspect it looks like a birds nest if 3 pair extension cables have been used and the blue/white and white/blue wires have possibly been routed through to the A&B terminals on the Mk3 plate from the back of the NTE5A.

For sure short lengths of cut wires would be unhelpful especially if they are unfiltered.
Standard User BrianC1
(newbie) Mon 18-Sep-17 16:21:28
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Re: Suspect master socket wiring


[re: MrSaffron] [link to this post]
 
The reason I didn't suggest pulling wires out of the IDC connectors is that it could be seen as interfering with BT property. I think Andrew is absolutely right, though. It's not rocket science removing all non-BT wiring and starting any new internal wiring from scratch. And these days, many people only use the master socket anyway because all their phones are DECT.

Edited by BrianC1 (Mon 18-Sep-17 16:23:29)

Standard User 4M2
(knowledge is power) Mon 18-Sep-17 16:29:10
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Re: Suspect master socket wiring


[re: BrianC1] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by BrianC1:
And these days, many people only use the master socket anyway because all their phones are DECT.


But it appears that the OP is running his router from an extension socket so that means that at least one extension must be unfiltered.
Standard User Zarjaz
(eat-sleep-adslguide) Mon 18-Sep-17 18:50:23
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Re: Suspect master socket wiring


[re: ukhardy07] [link to this post]
 
Which is a weird setup, can you take pics of the wiring where it connects?

Isn't it just, hence my wondering earlier about a data extension kit.

Standard User Hawthorns
(committed) Mon 18-Sep-17 20:48:59
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Re: Suspect master socket wiring


[re: Zarjaz] [link to this post]
 
I had a look at the extension socket that my router is plugged into and it looks like a generic socket with an RJ11 insert - of the type I've normally seen with an RJ45 socket for Ethernet connection.

As I spent the afternoon with a negative SNR and no broadband I've decided to bite the bullet and call an engineer to wire the master socket correctly and I'll plug the internal wiring into the faceplate. Even if I could sort it out this time I've no confidence that there aren't more problems lurking so I think it's time to undo the mysterious wiring and start with a clean slate.

Thanks to all for your comments and suggestions.

BT Option 3
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Standard User ukhardy07
(knowledge is power) Mon 18-Sep-17 21:19:11
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Re: Suspect master socket wiring


[re: Hawthorns] [link to this post]
 
Who is this engineer? Please donít tell me someone you found in the yellow pages or online

It has to be raised through your internet provider and needs to be a genuine openreach guy, builders are known to mess this stuff up massively.
Standard User Hawthorns
(committed) Mon 18-Sep-17 21:46:42
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Re: Suspect master socket wiring


[re: ukhardy07] [link to this post]
 
My broadband provider is BT so it's a pukka Openreach engineer. I'm not risking more cowboys, I'd rather pay for someone who knows what they're doing and have done with it.

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Standard User PaulKirby
(knowledge is power) Tue 19-Sep-17 02:42:34
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Re: Suspect master socket wiring


[re: Hawthorns] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by Hawthorns:
My broadband provider is BT so it's a pukka Openreach engineer. I'm not risking more cowboys, I'd rather pay for someone who knows what they're doing and have done with it.

Lets hope you don't get a Kelly's or MJ Quinn Subcontractor, I have always bad work done when its been a Kelly's engineer, might of had the odd MJ Quinn engineer, don't recall if I had any issues with their work.

If you are with BT for your broadband, I would of asked BT if they could send out a Boost Engineer, they will disconnect your whole master socket and BT80 (if you have one) and re-do them, they will also try and get the best possible stable speed for your line with and without the internal extensions if any.

TBH I cannot fault the BT Boost Engineer that we got, very polite and chatty and wasn't in a rush like Kelly's or MJ Quinn engineers always have been.

Paul

BTBroadband - Infinity 4 310Mbps (down), 31Mbps (up) FVA
TBB Speedtest | Linksys WRT 3200 ACM (BQM)
Standard User Hawthorns
(committed) Tue 19-Sep-17 10:11:56
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Re: Suspect master socket wiring


[re: PaulKirby] [link to this post]
 
Paul, thanks.

I'm out in the sticks so I would hope that the chances of getting a subcontractor are reduced. But I'll keep an eye open anyway.

I also noticed that the Netgear D7000 is not good at hanging on to sync on my line so at least I've found that a router swap didn't help.

BT Option 3
Home Hub 2

Edited by Hawthorns (Tue 19-Sep-17 10:15:17)

Standard User ukhardy07
(knowledge is power) Tue 19-Sep-17 10:27:30
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Re: Suspect master socket wiring


[re: Hawthorns] [link to this post]
 
I also noticed that the Netgear D7000 is not good at hanging on to sync on my line so at least I've found that a router swap didn't help.
Might be fine once your setup is more normal smile
Standard User 4M2
(knowledge is power) Tue 19-Sep-17 14:42:10
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Re: Suspect master socket wiring


[re: Hawthorns] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by Hawthorns:
I had a look at the extension socket that my router is plugged into and it looks like a generic socket with an RJ11 insert - of the type I've normally seen with an RJ45 socket for Ethernet connection.


That's interesting - the engineer will probably only have to reconnect the other extension to the lower outer plate and that will be filtered for voice use only. The current unfiltered extension that you are using for the router should be OK if it's good quality twisted pair and not too long.

Good luck.
Standard User BrianC1
(newbie) Wed 04-Oct-17 15:57:12
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Re: Suspect master socket wiring


[re: 4M2] [link to this post]
 
I'm wondering how the story ends...
Standard User Hawthorns
(committed) Sun 08-Oct-17 00:07:36
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Re: Suspect master socket wiring


[re: BrianC1] [link to this post]
 
The story ends with a young woman engineer visiting, swapping out the master socket and sorting out the exotic cabling. The sync speed has gone from around 1500 kbps to (currently) 2080 kbps. She told me that the local network is a mess and full of aluminium. Roll on FTTP.

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Standard User 4M2
(knowledge is power) Sun 08-Oct-17 00:48:19
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Re: Suspect master socket wiring


[re: Hawthorns] [link to this post]
 
Have you still got the router connected to the rj11 extension socket? If so did she test/examine the extension cable together with fitting a filtered faceplate on the new master?

Edited by 4M2 (Sun 08-Oct-17 00:50:27)

Standard User Hawthorns
(committed) Sun 08-Oct-17 16:27:29
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Re: Suspect master socket wiring


[re: 4M2] [link to this post]
 
Yes to both.

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