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Standard User TMCR
(newbie) Fri 15-Jul-11 22:46:19
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21CN, should have been today...(15/7/11)


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We're with Eclipse Internet (Business Bronze) and for a few weeks now the status page on our account has been telling us we would change to the 21CN network on 15th July.
It's 10.30pm on that date as I type this and I don't see any change at all?
I have tried restarting the router, several times now, but there is no difference in the speedtests I'm doing. If anything, the speed has dropped a little.
We are on exchange MYTHN if that is important. Samknows tells me it is 21CN enabled and I can only imagine that Eclipse were given the date to be able to show that on our account.
I did an address check in Samknows, it reports "BT 21CN services available" and showed the exchange as being "2837m away".
Am I missing something in making the new service become available?
The BT phone line was disconnected for a short while over lunch, I know as I was on the phone went it went dead for a couple of minutes. That was 10 hours ago.
Maybe I should not just accept that today was the day, but I cannot find any place to check the details. How do I know what sort of connection I have?
Speed has dropped from 4.3Mbps to 3.7Mbps down and 373kbps down to 282kbps between 6pm and 10.20pm.
I'm heading for home, much too late to stick around the office. I only stayed in case anything had to be done with the equipment so as not to leave services off-line over the weekend or anything.
Any clarification and/or information welcome. Thanks
Standard User uno
(fountain of knowledge) Fri 15-Jul-11 23:43:57
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Re: 21CN, should have been today...(15/7/11)


[re: TMCR] [link to this post]
 
It is possible and likely that Eclipse did a migration to 21CN but kept you on an ADSL1 profile. If so, you may not see any benefit until it is regraded to 2+.

Matt

-
uno Broadband
t: 0808 221 8642
Official Maidenhead, Milton Keynes & Manchester Speedtest.net Host
Standard User RobertoS
(sensei) Sat 16-Jul-11 00:15:03
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Re: 21CN, should have been today...(15/7/11)


[re: TMCR] [link to this post]
 
Disconnecting and reconnecting several times close together is likely to make the system think your line is unstable, and adjust your line to a lower default speed to stabilise it. I advise you not to do that again on Monday.

Also, connections made when it is dark are almost always slower than ones made during daylight. That in itself probably explains your gradual decline.

Given the 4.3Mbps speed you quoted, it is highly unlikely ADSL2+ will make any difference at all to your speed. In fact, you might even find, given a suitable router or wised-up support, the best for you would be ADSL2, not 2+.

If you can find and post the full line stats on Monday, taken immediately after connecting, or re-connecting, see here for help, we may be able to tell if you are on ADSL2+, and also advise further.

My broadband basic info/help site - www.robertos.me.uk
My domains,website and mail hosting - Tsohost. Internet connection - IDNet Home Starter Fibre. Live BQM.

"Where talent is a dwarf, self-esteem is a giant." - Jean-Antoine Petit-Senn.

Edited by RobertoS (Sat 16-Jul-11 00:19:23)


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Standard User TMCR
(newbie) Sat 16-Jul-11 01:00:00
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Re: 21CN, should have been today...(15/7/11)


[re: uno] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by uno:
It is possible and likely that Eclipse did a migration to 21CN but kept you on an ADSL1 profile. If so, you may not see any benefit until it is regraded to 2+.

Thanks - I've dropped a line to support to see what they say as well.
In reply to a post by RobertoS:
Disconnecting and reconnecting several times close together is likely to make the system think your line is unstable, and adjust your line to a lower default speed to stabilise it. I advise you not to do that again on Monday.

The resets were at least an hour apart, the BT speed test does not allow you to test more often than that. I'll not reset again until I have some positiver reason to do so.
In reply to a post by RobertoS:
Also, connections made when it is dark are almost always slower than ones made during daylight. That in itself probably explains your gradual decline.

I didn't know that, learning all the time.
In reply to a post by RobertoS:
Given the 4.3Mbps speed you quoted, it is highly unlikely ADSL2+ will make any difference at all to your speed. In fact, you might even find, given a suitable router or wised-up support, the best for you would be ADSL2, not 2+.

Ah, I'll see how it pans out. It was just with being told this was going to happen, then there was nothing noticable.
In reply to a post by RobertoS:
If you can find and post the full line stats on Monday, taken immediately after connecting, or re-connecting, we may be able to tell if you are on ADSL2+, and also advise further.

This is an always on system. I've not closed down for the weekend as others will be working there. I'll not be in myself to do anything. I do have remote access so can look at stats that way if I need to
The router is a Tenda, the Kitz site says "Unfortunately there doesnt appear to be a way to get full stats from the web interface frown". I've only recently installed this after our old Philips box stopped letting us access anything.
Thanks for the help so far.
Standard User RobertoS
(sensei) Sat 16-Jul-11 09:19:47
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Re: 21CN, should have been today...(15/7/11)


[re: TMCR] [link to this post]
 
The BT speed test reports the connection speeds and profiles now, as well as the throughput speeds. So those may give useful information, depending on whether or nor you are still on an ADSL Max "profile".

In my opinion it is almost certain that line drop was the switch-over. Even without the line stats you may find this graph interesting/discouraging. Look how close together ADSL and ADSL2+ are around 4.3Mbps, especially at the good line end.

My broadband basic info/help site - www.robertos.me.uk
My domains,website and mail hosting - Tsohost. Internet connection - IDNet Home Starter Fibre. Live BQM.

"Where talent is a dwarf, self-esteem is a giant." - Jean-Antoine Petit-Senn.
Standard User TMCR
(newbie) Sat 16-Jul-11 09:23:49
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Re: 21CN, should have been today...(15/7/11)


[re: RobertoS] [link to this post]
 
Here's what the BT speed tests say this morning. In particular I note the bits I have marked **
1. Best Effort Test
Download speedachieved during the test was - 4034 Kbps
For your connection, the acceptable range of speeds is 1200-4000 Kbps.
Additional Information:
Your DSL Connection Rate :5216 Kbps(DOWN-STREAM), 448 Kbps(UP-STREAM)
IP Profile for your line is - 4500 Kbps

** 4000 Kbps
** Max Achievable Speed

2. Upstream Test:
Upload speed achieved during the test was - 334 Kbps
Additional Information:
Upstream Rate IP profile on your line is - 448 Kbps


Previously, the max was showing something in the 7000's, it now seems to truncate.

So what you're saying is that despite the swap of technology, we will not see much difference?
Standard User RobertoS
(sensei) Sat 16-Jul-11 09:45:18
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Re: 21CN, should have been today...(15/7/11)


[re: TMCR] [link to this post]
 
Those show, as Matt at uno suggested, that you are either still on ADSL(1), or on ADSL2+ with an ADSL(1) profile being applied to the line. Don't confuse this "profile" with IP Profiles. With some ISPs a change to ADSL2+ does require action by the ISP as well as the physical swap.

And yes, I'm saying it will make little difference anyway.

In fact at those line lengths ADSL2+ can be a pain, as it is inherently less stable. As I suggested before, ADSL2 may be the best for you - many of us have found this at speeds below 6Mbps. You get a small increase from ADSL1, effectively the same as you would from ADSL2+, but the stability is more like ADSL1.

The reason for this is that ADSL2+ uses double the number of downstream frequencies as ADSL1 and 2, with the bottom ones being common to all 3. The higher frequencies attenuate much faster with distance, hence the shape of that graph, and below about 5.5Mbps you probably hardly use them. They are also more susceptible to interference, even though not in use on long lines, so can cause instability. Which on BT Wholesale circuits is a pain because of the DLM.

My broadband basic info/help site - www.robertos.me.uk
My domains,website and mail hosting - Tsohost. Internet connection - IDNet Home Starter Fibre. Live BQM.

"Where talent is a dwarf, self-esteem is a giant." - Jean-Antoine Petit-Senn.
Standard User adebov
(eat-sleep-adslguide) Sat 16-Jul-11 12:20:42
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Re: 21CN, should have been today...(15/7/11)


[re: RobertoS] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by RobertoS:
In fact at those line lengths ADSL2+ can be a pain, as it is inherently less stable. As I suggested before, ADSL2 may be the best for you - many of us have found this at speeds below 6Mbps. You get a small increase from ADSL1, effectively the same as you would from ADSL2+, but the stability is more like ADSL1.


Agreed (although in my case the old ADSL1 was quite unstable - although I still put that down to the 1st generation Alcatel DSLAM to which I was connected).
In order of stability (for my line);
ADSL2 (forced via DGTeam firmware)
ADSL2+
ADSL1 (using the old connection as a gauge)

With a target margin of 3dB (even on such a long line), ADSL2 is WAY more stable than ADSL1 was with a 6dB margin (I think BE just use better DSLAMs than BT).

With ADSL2 forced, my current uptime is 21 days at a 3dB margin (almost unheard of from ADSL1, on my line, with a 6dB margin).

I also get a massive (not "small") speed increase over ADSL1.
With a 3dB target I'm currently connected at 4553kbps down; 1049kbps up (like I said; uptime is over 21 days).
With ADSL1, even during the middle of the day (when background noise was at its lowest) I could only ever get that type of speed with a target margin of less than 1dB (and the line would only hold sync for a few hours).

With ADSL1, the only way I could get a 21 day connection was to sync at around 3.5Mbps.
So; by switching to ADSL2, I have a 29% connection speed boost, translating to around 33% download speed boost (because BE don't use BT's stupid IP profiling system).

Ade

ADSL2+ with BE
DL Sync around 4.8Mbps
UL Sync 1088kbps

DG834GT with DGTeam firmware
Standard User TMCR
(newbie) Sat 16-Jul-11 14:51:49
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Re: 21CN, should have been today...(15/7/11)


[re: adebov] [link to this post]
 
I'm not sure how we would define ADSL2 as a preference, or if we need to ask the ISP to set that up for us.
Looking at the checker results I am puzzled that it seems to be stunted at 4000kbps ("the acceptable range of speeds is 1200-4000 Kbps") yet had recorded either "Download speedachieved during the test was - 4034 Kbps" or "Your DSL Connection Rate :5216 Kbps(DOWN-STREAM)". A few minutes ago thgose figures were 5116 and 5216.
I wonder how long before we can look at FTTC. The new street boxes are in place in our area, the nearest is about 90 metres away.
On Monday I will switch off and unplug the router then see what happened when I put it back on.
Standard User RobertoS
(sensei) Sat 16-Jul-11 22:46:21
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Re: 21CN, should have been today...(15/7/11)


[re: TMCR] [link to this post]
 
The first thing you need is to get them to put you on ADSL2+ proper anyway, and see how that does. At the moment you aren't, even if the physical connection has been changed to ADSL2+-capable kit.

What make and model of router have you got? Some are not ADSL2+ capable anyway, and some that are can be easily altered to ADSL2 by the user.

My broadband basic info/help site - www.robertos.me.uk
My domains,website and mail hosting - Tsohost. Internet connection - IDNet Home Starter Fibre. Live BQM.

"Where talent is a dwarf, self-esteem is a giant." - Jean-Antoine Petit-Senn.
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