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Standard User XRaySpeX
(eat-sleep-adslguide) Sun 06-Jan-13 19:43:53
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Re: Reasonable cost of Unlimited WBC?


[re: akawtu] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by akawtu:
from what I've been told on TBB this is the price the 10 Gig WBC users pay.
You don't need to go just by what I told you here; you can see for yourself officially: http://www.productsandservices.bt.com/consumerProduc...

1999: Freeserve 48K Dial-Up => 2005: Wanadoo 1 Meg BB => 2007: Orange 2 Meg BB => 2008: Orange 8 Meg LLU => 2010: Orange 16 Meg LLU => 2011: Orange 19 Meg WBC
Standard User XRaySpeX
(eat-sleep-adslguide) Sun 06-Jan-13 19:55:18
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Re: Reasonable cost of Unlimited WBC?


[re: akawtu] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by akawtu:
I can switch over to EE who charge only £5 for the same Unlimited WBC and anytime calls package.
No, EE's Unlimited ADSL + Anytime Calls works out at £7.50 pm. You have confused the £30 welcome credit with a half-price discount. Of course for the Off-Peaks Calls package they work out the same, but not for this Anytime Calls.

1999: Freeserve 48K Dial-Up => 2005: Wanadoo 1 Meg BB => 2007: Orange 2 Meg BB => 2008: Orange 8 Meg LLU => 2010: Orange 16 Meg LLU => 2011: Orange 19 Meg WBC

Edited by XRaySpeX (Sun 06-Jan-13 20:08:13)

Standard User XRaySpeX
(eat-sleep-adslguide) Sun 06-Jan-13 20:00:20
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Re: Reasonable cost of Unlimited WBC?


[re: akawtu] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by akawtu:
Do you know if this £13.75 Unlimited WBC and anytime calls offer is a loss leader for BT?
Yes, it's just a retention offer in an attempt to keep you. It's quite commonplace; many ISPs make them.

1999: Freeserve 48K Dial-Up => 2005: Wanadoo 1 Meg BB => 2007: Orange 2 Meg BB => 2008: Orange 8 Meg LLU => 2010: Orange 16 Meg LLU => 2011: Orange 19 Meg WBC


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Standard User RobertoS
(sensei) Sun 06-Jan-13 20:32:12
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Re: Reasonable cost of Unlimited WBC?


[re: akawtu] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by akawtu:
I don't have much of an opinion on the loss although of course it does seem likely but how much of a loss is a huge loss?
Again I'm ducking out, in not searching for it and I haven't a current link, but the Openreach price list for phone line rental and broadband provision over it is public information. Then there is the corresponding price from BT Wholesale that ISPs buy the broadband service from.

Complicated in this case by the fact that Orange some time last year gave up all their LLU equipment and ISP contracts with BT Wholesale and handed the lot over to BT Wholesale. Orange broadband, and I assume therefore EE broadband, is actually a White Label product, with Orange/EE being simply a sales organisation for it. What the contractual and costing arrangements for that are a complete commercial secret.
Is it possible to know the reasonable cost of Unlimited WBC?
Effectively no.

For example, to compare the EE deal you are looking at with one from O2 that ran for a long time, (OK it's LLU but demonstrates the principle), it was possible to sign up to O2 LLU and at the end of 12 months be in profit! They paid you to use them. crazy. EE are almost doing the same. In fact, wait a mo ....

yes ... see this page.

Quite how/whether you would fit in as you already have an EE mobile is another question.

My broadband basic info/help site - www.robertos.me.uk | Domains,website and mail hosting - Tsohost.
Connection - Plusnet Extra Fibre (FTTC). Sync ~ 54.0/14.9Mbps @ 600m. - BQM

"Where talent is a dwarf, self-esteem is a giant." - Jean-Antoine Petit-Senn.
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Allergy information: This post was manufactured in an environment where nuts are present. It may include traces of understatement, litotes and humour.
Standard User akawtu
(learned) Mon 07-Jan-13 03:57:47
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Re: Reasonable cost of Unlimited WBC?


[re: RobertoS] [link to this post]
 
Maybe we can extrapolate based on line rental prices?

http://www.openreach.co.uk/orpg/home/products/pricin...

Once the page has loaded click on WLR Pricing and click on 1.1.2 Line Rental Prices.

The cost price of Line Rental is currently £98.81 per year (includes VAT) which works out at £9.88 per month (includes VAT). EE are charging £14 per month (includes VAT) so we're looking at a ~40% mark up.

EE charge £5 per month for the cheapest Unlimited WBC, this is without any offers. This £5 price is what everyone would pay if they were out of contract in 12 months time unless a price increase occurred but that is unlikely to happen right after the minimum contract term.

Is this £5 per month a loss leader??? I find it hard to believe a company could take on millions of customers at a loss and especially as after the 12 months it is unlikely EE would be able to increase the price very much! The £5 must include some mark up surely? I read that EE has almost 30 million mobile customers and you can bet a large number of these customers will be taking up the half price broadband deal. It's a no-brainer.

Based on the Line Rental pricing and mark up of 40% we could figure a cost price for Unlimited WBC of around £3.60 per month (includes VAT). EE have offered me a special offer of £2.50 per month so is it a loss leader of £1.10 per month?

BT charge me £29.40 for Unlimited WBC and anytime calls. The cost of anytime calls is unknown to me but for this example we will assume it is £4 for now which is probably way over priced. So £25.40 for Unlimited WBC and we've extrapolated a cost price of £3.60 so a mark up of £21.80 which is more than 600%!

Obviously the costs are a lot more complex than the crude example above but the cost to the customer figures are useful when trying to work out what is going on. The £5 per month for Unlimited WBC does mean something! No company can sell a product at a loss for a sustained period so for EE it does appear that they can provide Unlimited WBC to their customers for £5 per month! This is a fact because they are doing it right now and they will be doing it in 12 months time and it wouldn't make sense for them to do it while losing money! That would be stupid!

Obviously the deal regarding the LLU hand over to BT is complicating things but it still comes down to no strings attached £5 Unlimited WBC broadband.

I just had a thought. What if BT realised they could do this LLU hand over deal with Orange and allow EE to charge their new broadband customers a lower price, BT can make up the difference because they already overcharge their loyal customers and that extra we are paying is now used to balance the lower cost EE is charging it's customers!

However I am now left wondering why would BT want EE to succeed in the broadband market??? Oh wait I might have the answer, it would help kill the broadband market by allowing two massive broadband companies to dominate the market and the other broadband companies would be left scrambling for the scraps???

No that can't be it! Disregard that, I think I might be onto something. There are LLU companies out there who are hurting BT a lot for example Talk Talk! BT can't compete with Talk Talk because if they did their revenue and of course their profits would drop massively. BT want to continue overcharging their loyal customers while gaining new customers at the prices the LLU providers are charging!

BINGO!

BT now have a means of taking revenue and therefore profit from the LLU providers. EE are doing it right now for BT and BT can still overcharge their loyal customers because well most of us don't check prices! I am betting they didn't expect this to get out so quickly. Am I right???

IS IT POSSIBLE THAT BT AREN'T CONTENT WITH RIPPING OFF THEIR LOYAL CUSTOMERS? ARE THEY LOOKING FOR MORE OF THE PIE AND HAVE MADE A DEAL WITH EE TO TAKE CUSTOMERS AWAY FROM THE LLU SUPPLIERS???
Standard User akawtu
(learned) Mon 07-Jan-13 04:00:36
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Re: Reasonable cost of Unlimited WBC?


[re: XRaySpeX] [link to this post]
 
Just because it is quite commonplace doesn't mean we can't challenge it!

It's not criminal but morally it is wrong to charge some customers a high price and other customers a low price for the exact same broadband package???
Standard User akawtu
(learned) Mon 07-Jan-13 04:03:14
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Re: Reasonable cost of Unlimited WBC?


[re: XRaySpeX] [link to this post]
 
See there I go getting it wrong again. frown

On the EE website it says:

BROADBAND
AS AN EXISTING CUSTOMER YOU GET £5 OFF YOUR PACKAGE

But you are correct that quote isn't true for all the packages!

I'll update the first post. Thanks again for correcting me my friend. tongue
Standard User Chrysalis
(eat-sleep-adslguide) Mon 07-Jan-13 04:34:49
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Re: Reasonable cost of Unlimited WBC?


[re: RobertoS] [link to this post]
 
indeed, and now O2 have uncompetitive mobile deals, seems to ring the same bell as EE?

paying people to take line based broadband but subsidised by the mobile customers.

even if adsl at £2.50 thats way below wholesale cost.

BT Infinity 2 Since Dec 2012 - Estimate 65.9/20 - Attainable peak 110/36 - Current Sync 71/20
Standard User Chrysalis
(eat-sleep-adslguide) Mon 07-Jan-13 04:36:02
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Re: Reasonable cost of Unlimited WBC?


[re: akawtu] [link to this post]
 
BT broadband and EE broadband are not exact same packages tho.

different backhaul, different peering, different policies, different support, different contention levels etc.

BT Infinity 2 Since Dec 2012 - Estimate 65.9/20 - Attainable peak 110/36 - Current Sync 71/20
Standard User akawtu
(learned) Mon 07-Jan-13 04:46:08
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Re: Reasonable cost of Unlimited WBC?


[re: Chrysalis] [link to this post]
 
I'm talking about BT Unlimited WBC prices.

I am paying £29.40 per month for Unlimited WBC and anytime calls but BT offered it to me for £13.75 per month!!!

There will be others like me who are paying £29.40 and they have no idea that other customers are have the exact same package from BT for a lower price. Customers like me who right now have no idea they can call up BT cancellations to get a reduced price!

I didn't know the prices had changed so drastically. I have been paying £29.40 per month to BT for years.
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