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Standard User sheephouse
(learned) Wed 09-Aug-17 10:32:33
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21CN WBC and Netherend exchange


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I wonder whether any of those "in the know" can tell me whether they are aware of any plans for the Netherend exchange? It is a 20CN that has had both its cabinets FTTC enabled as part of the Fastershire BDUK project, leaving about 30% of lines as EO. The remaining lines were left untouched as they would not have achieved the 30Mbps threshold that is Fastershire's target (apparently it is preferable to leave people with poor broadband than to upgrade them to "only" 18Mbps or so).

I have spoken to OR and various parts of BT, and have been told that ADSL2+ will never be installed. So I assumed that it would eventually be LR-VDSL. However, I have recently spoken to BT about a leased line, and the person I spoke to was puzzled by the lack of upgrade plans, so went away to speak to planners about what was due to happen and when. Apparently he was told the remaining lines would "never, ever, ever" be fibre enabled.

So if it isn't ADSL2, and it isn't fibre, how are they going to get rid of 20CN?

SInce Gigaclear are due to deploy FTTP by the end of 2019, will BT just give up on broadband for the EO lines?

BTW, BT won't quote for a leased line as it would be a 9 mile line length (I am 1 mile from the Netherend exchange) so the build costs would be significant. They are exploring other options now.

Update:- after a further discussion with someone in BT, I think I can answer my own question now. The eventual withdrawal of IPStream does not necessarily mean that ADSL will be replaced, so exchanges such as mine will remain with ADSL Max for the EO lines that can't get FTTC. Exchanges that currently provide ISDN using IPStream will be upgraded (many already have been), so ISDN will go away and be replaced by OneVoice. In the absence of ISDN there is no requirement to upgrade an exchange.

And my upgrade options from BT are limited to bonding 4 ADSL lines, or 4G home broadband.

Edited by sheephouse (Wed 09-Aug-17 13:09:29)

Administrator MrSaffron
(staff) Wed 09-Aug-17 14:45:05
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Re: 21CN WBC and Netherend exchange


[re: sheephouse] [link to this post]
 
Short...

SInce Gigaclear are due to deploy FTTP by the end of 2019, will BT just give up on broadband for the EO lines?

Yes

Fastershire will not be paying for more upgrades if Gigaclear on the way, would be at least 4 more VDSL2 cabinets to get all the EO to superfast.

The author of the above post is a thinkbroadband staff member. It may not constitute an official statement on behalf of thinkbroadband.
Standard User baby_frogmella
(fountain of knowledge) Wed 09-Aug-17 15:08:43
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Re: 21CN WBC and Netherend exchange


[re: sheephouse] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by sheephouse:
So if it isn't ADSL2, and it isn't fibre, how are they going to get rid of 20CN?


Chances are your exchange will be upgraded to 21CN by the end of 2018 as BT is currently in the process of upgrading the remaining IPstream only exchanges with WBC (ADSL2+). I imagine only the extremely remote exchanges will be left out and your exchange doesn't appear to be very remote.

http://www.ispreview.co.uk/index.php/2017/02/bt-upda...

FluidOne FTTP On Demand 330/30 Mbps
Netgear Nighthawk X10 running Voxel


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Standard User sheephouse
(learned) Wed 09-Aug-17 15:14:49
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Re: 21CN WBC and Netherend exchange


[re: MrSaffron] [link to this post]
 
Thanks for the confirmation, I had come to that conclusion myself, but wasn't quite believing it.

I had been puzzled by the view that a lot of people have that 20CN exchanges are all to be upgraded, and the apparent contradiction of BT planning not to upgrade mine.

However, I now understand that they can drop IPStream without replacing ADSL (ADSL Max 8Mbps just becomes WBC Max 8Mbps), and they can also meet a 10Mbps USO by line bonding (there are no lines on my exchange that couldn't get 10Mbps by bonding 4 lines). That would cost the customer more (>= 4 times) the cost of a single line), but meets the proposed USO criteria, and doesn't cost BT a penny in investment.

So any other people hoping that their 20CN exchange will be upgraded to ADSL2+ by the retirement of IPStream may well be disappointed too.
Standard User sheephouse
(learned) Wed 09-Aug-17 15:18:26
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Re: 21CN WBC and Netherend exchange


[re: baby_frogmella] [link to this post]
 
No, there are apparently no plans to upgrade to ADSL2+. I have been advised that only applies to exchanges where they need to replace ISDN, and there is no ISDN support in my exchange, so there is no need to install ADSL2+. The existing ADSL Max just becomes WBC Max and there is no apparent change to the products available (although Max Premium 832Kbps upload is replaced by a 1Mbps upload).
Standard User baby_frogmella
(fountain of knowledge) Wed 09-Aug-17 15:25:57
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Re: 21CN WBC and Netherend exchange


[re: sheephouse] [link to this post]
 
When the upgrades are complete, 99.8% of the population will have access to a BT Wholesale based ADSL2+ service so you would have to be very unlucky to be in that 0.2%. Take what BT/OR have told you with a small pinch of salt, the person you spoke to may not be fully clued up wrt plans for your exchange.

Edit: If 'AndyHCZ' reads this thread he should be able to confirm if your exchange is due to be upgraded to 21CN by 2018.

FluidOne FTTP On Demand 330/30 Mbps
Netgear Nighthawk X10 running Voxel

Edited by baby_frogmella (Wed 09-Aug-17 15:36:11)

Standard User sheephouse
(learned) Wed 09-Aug-17 15:43:11
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Re: 21CN WBC and Netherend exchange


[re: baby_frogmella] [link to this post]
 
the person you spoke to may not be fully clued up wrt plans for your exchange


My current understanding has been built up from numerous telephone calls and e-mail exchanges.

At least two of the BT people (from different depts) I have dealt with have gone away to double check with planners, as they didn't believe that they couldn't sell me anything better than ADSL Max. OR have also told me the same thing.

I would be very interested in anything AndyHCZ could add (or anyone else with any related information).

Edited by sheephouse (Wed 09-Aug-17 15:44:31)

Standard User lee111s
(fountain of knowledge) Wed 09-Aug-17 16:13:46
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Re: 21CN WBC and Netherend exchange


[re: sheephouse] [link to this post]
 
http://www.ispreview.co.uk/index.php/2017/02/bt-upda...

It's Wholesale doing the 21CN roll out, not Openreach.
Standard User sheephouse
(learned) Wed 09-Aug-17 16:28:52
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Re: 21CN WBC and Netherend exchange


[re: lee111s] [link to this post]
 
It's Wholesale doing the 21CN roll out, not Openreach.


Yes, but even so, 21CN does not imply ADSL2+. I'll believe 98.2% coverage for 21CN, but not for ADSL2+ - at the least, many with FTTP have it because ADSL2+ isn't an option, and they account for more than the 0.8%.
Administrator MrSaffron
(staff) Wed 09-Aug-17 17:05:35
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Re: 21CN WBC and Netherend exchange


[re: sheephouse] [link to this post]
 
Until I see that confirmed i.e. 21CN does equal ADSL2+ at all the exchanges I'd advise caution. So far I've not seen an exchange that has been 21CN'd that does not have ADSL2+, i.e. one of the reasons for change is to get rid of old DSLAMs and the old Exchange Activate and Max ones are getting long in the tooth

Also note that if Gigaclear is coming to premises the USO is irrelevant, it may be that once Gigaclear have been in 2019 that some might be missing out and qualify for USO, but what you would get would depend on the economics.

The author of the above post is a thinkbroadband staff member. It may not constitute an official statement on behalf of thinkbroadband.
Standard User 4M2
(knowledge is power) Wed 09-Aug-17 17:45:31
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Re: 21CN WBC and Netherend exchange


[re: sheephouse] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by sheephouse:
Yes, but even so, 21CN does not imply ADSL2+. I'll believe 98.2% coverage for 21CN, but not for ADSL2+ - at the least, many with FTTP have it because ADSL2+ isn't an option, and they account for more than the 0.8%.


On long lines ADSL2 is often a better option than ADSL2+ - on a 21CN exchange an end user can force an ADSL2 connection (or even an ADSL1 connection) for a better combination of stability and speed.

So yes 21CN does not always imply that all users are on ADSL2+ even though it is available but not a viable option. If the ADSL2 speed is inadequate for a user's needs then of course FTTP would be the best option.
Standard User sheephouse
(learned) Wed 09-Aug-17 18:50:13
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Re: 21CN WBC and Netherend exchange


[re: MrSaffron] [link to this post]
 
I think I'm confused again.

If 21CN does mean ADSL2+, why does the WBC offerings include WBC Max (which is ADSL Max, or an uncapped upload ADSL Max). Surely since ADSL2+ can operate in G992.1 mode there wouldn't be any need for an WBC Max product if ADSL2+ was always available.

None of the documents I have access to appear to contradict what BT have told me.

Can anyone see any upgrade plans for Netherend? That would contradict BT.
Administrator MrSaffron
(staff) Wed 09-Aug-17 19:14:11
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Re: 21CN WBC and Netherend exchange


[re: sheephouse] [link to this post]
 
Some providers have only sold an up to 8 Mbps product even when more from ADSL2+ was available

WBC Max has two definitions
http://www.sinet.bt.com/sinet/SINs/pdf/472v2p8.pdf

But elsewhere you find references to WBC Max and WBC ADSL2+ with the Max being an ADSL protocol product on WBC exchanges i.e. its a product choice a retailer makes when buying from BT Wholesale.

Upgrading kit to support WBC backhaul and other elements makes little sense if only going to offer ADSL service at the wholesale level

The author of the above post is a thinkbroadband staff member. It may not constitute an official statement on behalf of thinkbroadband.
Standard User sheephouse
(learned) Wed 09-Aug-17 19:39:40
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Re: 21CN WBC and Netherend exchange


[re: MrSaffron] [link to this post]
 
Upgrading to WBC does get rid of IPStream.

And do they charge more wholesale for ADSL2+ to make it worth upgrading?

BT have told me that there is not enough room in the exchange for ADSL2+, that it will never be installed there, and that they have no plans to upgrade any remaining EO lines ever. So if they were going to upgrade to ADSL2+ wouldn't they have some plans in place by now? Or at least a plan to have a plan?

BT Business are offering bonded lines as the only option they have for improving ADSL.
Administrator MrSaffron
(staff) Wed 09-Aug-17 22:02:43
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Re: 21CN WBC and Netherend exchange


[re: sheephouse] [link to this post]
 
Time will bring the answer

The author of the above post is a thinkbroadband staff member. It may not constitute an official statement on behalf of thinkbroadband.
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