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Standard User mr_mojo
(knowledge is power) Wed 28-Mar-18 12:36:19
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Re: USO: Who is eligable


[re: baby_frogmella] [link to this post]
 
Yes, I am aware, it was a hypothetical. What if they put the prices up to £100/month if they realised they were the only provider on an apartment building and had it more competitively priced elsewhere? Would that be reasonable cost? They could do that and I bet a lot of people in London (like me) would be stuck paying it as new build flats (until very recently) often had dreadful EO broadband options from BT. I don't see why ofcom would do anything, they're pretty much entirely out-with their regulatory remit.

I like hyperoptic but being entirely reliant on one small niche ISP is annoying.

TBH I don't think 4G with usage caps should count towards it either. It isn't a true broadband service - all mainstream ISPs offer unlimited on the fixed line market. If it was an unlimited product that would be fine but I doubt it would actually meet USO speeds ironically with congestion at peak times as there isn't the spectrum there (especially on LTE800).
Standard User ian72
(eat-sleep-adslguide) Wed 28-Mar-18 12:43:27
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Re: USO: Who is eligable


[re: mr_mojo] [link to this post]
 
It is part of the Ofcom implementation to decide on what "reasonable cost" is and also on what you should get for that cost (ie if usage caps are acceptable). Ofcom still probably have some work to do to dot the i's and cross the t's to get the USO in place.

It is interesting that you are concerned about Hyperoptic being the only supplier. This is always a concern but is the result of Ofcom enforcing regulations for an open market - this is what it was designed to do. If Openreach had plans to bring broadband to your area then Hyperoptic probably wouldn't be there at all and you could be left with significantly slower speeds as is the case for most of the country. You are in a position that many would envy but there are downsides.

The other question would be if Ofcom did enforce a USO to ALL properties on Openreach despite them already having other options then how much loss is reasonable for Openreach to take - if cheap fibre is already available then Openreach probably wouldn't get much custom for their investment and so it would be subsidised by other customers who don't have the option of full fibre - that hardly seems fair.

The bigger issue I think you face is if the performance drops significantly. You might still be paying a reasonable price but you could find that latency (for example) suddenly goes to the point where services like online gaming become impossible - you couldn't move supplier but issues like that may not come under the remit of any USO.
Standard User baby_frogmella
(fountain of knowledge) Wed 28-Mar-18 13:02:30
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Re: USO: Who is eligable


[re: mr_mojo] [link to this post]
 
Hyperoptic have spent a lot of their own money to bring full fibre to many residential properties (usually MDUs in built up areas). They will want a return/profit on their investment and the best way to do that is to get as many punters on board as possible, which means attracting people with sensible prices. Pricing their residential products for £100s per month will ensure they go tits up (bust) quicker than you can say "boo" to a goose. You may be willing to pay significantly higher monthly prices with Hyperoptic but the majority of their other customers won't be - hence it would be financial suicide for them.

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Edited by baby_frogmella (Wed 28-Mar-18 13:03:59)


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Standard User mr_mojo
(knowledge is power) Wed 28-Mar-18 14:39:15
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Re: USO: Who is eligable


[re: baby_frogmella] [link to this post]
 
Yes, but they have taken on a spectacular amount of debt financing (not equity) to very aggressively roll out further. It would not take much for them to go seriously wrong with the amount of debt they've loaded themselves on (eg: NTL, Telewest back in the day).

I'm not sure I agree, most properties in London they are in cost £2000-10000+/month to rent, even £100 is pretty minimal compared to the cost of rent/ownership.

I can very easily see them screwing up the rollout, being too aggressive, then the debt holders run the show and sweat the assets very aggressively to try and get as much money out of it.
Standard User mr_mojo
(knowledge is power) Wed 28-Mar-18 14:46:29
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Re: USO: Who is eligable


[re: ian72] [link to this post]
 
Not true, most places with Hyperoptic have both that and openreach FTTP available. My last flat had Hyperoptic & OR FTTP.

Nearly all new apartment buildings going up will have hyperoptic (because they work with landlords closely) and OR FTTP (because OR will only put fibre in with new copper in new apartment buildings). I just missed out on this and even had Openreach wayleave signed for fibre but they pulled out at the last minute as they didn't have enough resource due to the new policy of all newbuild MDUs having fibre (apart from mine!).

I really thought the USO would apply to openreach, not a patchwork of dozens (hundreds?) of potential supplies, including often very fly by night fixed wireless access operators.
Standard User ian72
(eat-sleep-adslguide) Wed 28-Mar-18 15:06:48
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Re: USO: Who is eligable


[re: mr_mojo] [link to this post]
 
Why should the USO only apply to Openreach? Why should they bear the burden of all the costs?

I think the crossover of both Hyperoptic and Openreach FTTP will be a small percentage of the UK. New build flats where Hyperoptic have a presence may be "common" in some areas but as far as the country is concerned it is a microscopic amount. If you can get both then you are incredibly lucky to have such an abundance of choice. I suspect you live in a very specific part of the country where this is happening; most do not have that luxury.
Administrator MrSaffron
(staff) Wed 28-Mar-18 15:43:30
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Re: USO: Who is eligable


[re: ian72] [link to this post]
 
And a USO that saw people using the 'fund' to roll-out where other affordable options were available would

a) Not be popular among those with no options and were seeing delays in service delivery due to volume of work
b) Lead to legal challenges
c) Cement further the idea Openreach = Broadband
d) Reduce opportunity for others to use some USO work as a means to expand footprint further

The author of the above post is a thinkbroadband staff member. It may not constitute an official statement on behalf of thinkbroadband.
Standard User mr_mojo
(knowledge is power) Wed 28-Mar-18 17:29:25
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Re: USO: Who is eligable


[re: MrSaffron] [link to this post]
 
Hmm. But Openreach are the only ones AFIAK that have a USO on providing a (standard) telephone line. And as far as I know even if there was a virgin phone line in the house you'd have a legal right to ask openreach to fit a BT one.

Not sure why the broadband one is radically different. In my eyes there are two sets of broadband providers:

Openreach - regulated and have to offer other providers
Everyone else - not really regulated to any of the same extent and don't have to offer other provides access

I don't see how a USO works if you are forcing people onto some unregulated, unwholesaleable other provider that can change pricing, service etc as and when they want. It would be a bit like saying 95% of the country gets access to the NHS and the other 5% gets access to some private healthcare provision at some unregulated cost and considering that universal healthcare.

I would have no issue with including say Virgin (or indeed hyperoptic), assuming they were also forced to offer a regulated wholesale product with similar terms to openreach.

If I set up a wireless ISP with a tin can VDSL backhaul and a few poles, does that now meet USO? Even though I have no experience running an ISP, the backhaul isn't sufficient, etc and I'll probably go bust in a few months?

I would expect some standards to be applied for what is considered actual USO eligable. If it's just topline 10mbit/1mbit speeds with no real consideration of price, usage caps, contention, reliability etc it's very shorted sighted imo.
Standard User RobertoS
(elder) Wed 28-Mar-18 18:05:04
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Re: USO: Who is eligible


[re: mr_mojo] [link to this post]
 
AIUI, in the USA huge areas have only a single provider. If the customer doesn't like it, that's tough.

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Administrator MrSaffron
(staff) Wed 28-Mar-18 18:34:59
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Re: USO: Who is eligable


[re: mr_mojo] [link to this post]
 
If you believe that fixed wireless providers should be excluded from the USO plans then you should make your case, and by your theory so should Gigaclear and other full fibre operators too.

3 decades of regulation to reduce the influence of an old body that was once called the GPO and I don't think you are going to win.

NOTE: With the new rules for Openreach nothing stopping them increasing the price of the 80/20 services to compensate for loss of revenue from the 40/10 product.

The author of the above post is a thinkbroadband staff member. It may not constitute an official statement on behalf of thinkbroadband.
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