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Standard User gouledw
(learned) Thu 23-Feb-12 23:31:56
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What router will work?


[link to this post]
 
We've had the Business Hub - that failed

We've had the DG834 - that failed.

We've had the DGN2000 - that failed.

We've had the Home Hub 3 - that failed.

Is it really time to splash out on a billion 7800N to try and solve our dropping connection? We've had engineers out, 3km of cable replaced from gauge 0.5 to .9 which helped. Will this router be any better? I've heard it works miracles.

Line Stats:

ADSL Line Status
Connection information
Line state: Connected
Connection time: 2 days, 06:56:51
Downstream: 2,528 Kbps
Upstream: 448 Kbps

ADSL settings

VPI/VCI: 0/38
Type: PPPoA
Modulation: G.992.1 Annex A
Latency type: Interleaved
Noise margin (Down/Up): 0.4 dB / 14.0 dB
Line attenuation (Down/Up): 81.5 dB / 31.5 dB
Output power (Down/Up): 18.0 dBm / 11.9 dBm
FEC Events (Down/Up): 17724300 / 828
CRC Events (Down/Up): 1493 / 177
Standard User BatBoy
(legend) Thu 23-Feb-12 23:37:39
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Re: What router will work?


[re: gouledw] [link to this post]
 
Line attenuation (Down/Up): 81.5 dB
I think a 2wire is recommended for looong lines. Dunno which one though.



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Administrator MrSaffron
(staff) Thu 23-Feb-12 23:40:17
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Re: What router will work?


[re: gouledw] [link to this post]
 
81db attenuation and 2.5meg, you are out performing any expectations already

How did routers fail?

.9 gauge and 81db suggests around a 10km line

Andrew Ferguson, andrew@thinkbroadband.com
www.thinkbroadband.com - formerly known as ADSLguide.org.uk
The author of the above post is a thinkbroadband staff member. It may not constitute an official statement on behalf of thinkbroadband.


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Standard User RobertoS
(sensei) Thu 23-Feb-12 23:41:03
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Re: What router will work?


[re: gouledw] [link to this post]
 
Are you tweaking the noise margin? That looks to be an incredibly high connection speed for the attenuation.

My broadband basic info/help site - www.robertos.me.uk
My domains,website and mail hosting - Tsohost. Internet connection - Plusnet Value Fibre.

"Where talent is a dwarf, self-esteem is a giant." - Jean-Antoine Petit-Senn.
Standard User XRaySpeX
(eat-sleep-adslguide) Fri 24-Feb-12 00:07:11
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Re: What router will work?


[re: gouledw] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by gouledw:
Noise margin (Down/Up): 0.4 dB / 14.0 dB
Point of failure! No router will cope ("not fail" in your speak) at this low level on your excessively long line. You are lucky to get BB at all frown

1999: Freeserve 48K Dial-Up => 2005: Wanadoo 1 Meg BB => 2007: Orange 2 Meg BB => 2008: Orange 8 Meg LLU => 2010: Orange 16 Meg LLU => 2011: Orange 19 Meg WBC
Standard User gouledw
(learned) Fri 24-Feb-12 08:01:06
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Re: What router will work?


[re: XRaySpeX] [link to this post]
 
These are stats from the morning, and it held throughout the night, wonder why? wink

The router's failed because none of them held the line, which is why I ask if the billion will be any better? because at least then I can tweak the noise margin up a bit to give some stability, and with it having a good chipset we should have a good speed anyway. BT won't look into the fault, because the line is still performing well. The SNR margin is locked in at 6dB and won't move up or down.

ADSL Line Status
Connection information
Line state: Connected
Connection time: 2 days, 15:26:42
Downstream: 2,528 Kbps
Upstream: 448 Kbps

ADSL settings

VPI/VCI: 0/38
Type: PPPoA
Modulation: G.992.1 Annex A
Latency type: Interleaved
Noise margin (Down/Up): 3.3 dB / 14.0 dB
Line attenuation (Down/Up): 81.5 dB / 31.5 dB
Output power (Down/Up): 18.0 dBm / 11.9 dBm
FEC Events (Down/Up): 24224465 / 848
CRC Events (Down/Up): 1588 / 179


And our line is 9.62km long. And when we connect the router, the TNM is 6dB and then it drops by up to 6 at night, is this normal or should it just be by 3?

Edited by gouledw (Fri 24-Feb-12 08:06:48)

Standard User john2007
(legend) Fri 24-Feb-12 08:53:17
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Re: What router will work?


[re: gouledw] [link to this post]
 
Not really such a thing as normal. The environment of every line will be subtly different even to those adjacent to it.

Nothing looks odd in a drop of 6dB overnight. More radio interference at night.

As others have said your line would seem to be performing much better than the average for its attenuation.
Standard User gouledw
(learned) Fri 24-Feb-12 09:03:51
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Re: What router will work?


[re: john2007] [link to this post]
 
Thanks for clearing that up. But is it worth splashing out on that router?
Administrator MrSaffron
(staff) Fri 24-Feb-12 09:32:48
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Re: What router will work?


[re: gouledw] [link to this post]
 
No one can answer that for you, as your line is very much outside the norm.

Is the router affordable? And if it fails (which is the wrong word to use as people think you mean blown up) how much is it worth second hand?

If seeing a 6dB swing then the standard practice would be to increase the initial target to 9dB or 12dB to slow down the service and provide enough stability, giving you perhaps 1 to 1.5Mbps connection speed but less drops.

Every 3dB of attenuation means the signal has halved in strength, so at 80dB, it is has been halved 30 times, so no surprise to find that noise is a big problem.

Andrew Ferguson, andrew@thinkbroadband.com
www.thinkbroadband.com - formerly known as ADSLguide.org.uk
The author of the above post is a thinkbroadband staff member. It may not constitute an official statement on behalf of thinkbroadband.
Standard User gouledw
(learned) Fri 24-Feb-12 10:07:54
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Re: What router will work?


[re: MrSaffron] [link to this post]
 
BT will not rise the SNR. THey've locked it into place so that the speed won't decrease. An indian person tried an SNR reset the other day, and the system didn't respond to the request, because they dont have authaurisation to do it. The only way my line can have an SNR reset is if someone at BT Wholesale manually does it.
Standard User baby_frogmella
(committed) Fri 24-Feb-12 10:21:08
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Re: What router will work?


[re: gouledw] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by gouledw:
Thanks for clearing that up. But is it worth splashing out on that router?


Definitely! Put it this way: if the Billion 7800N doesn't solve your dropping connection problem, then its very unlikely any other router will. I suggest you buy the router from Amazon (many satisfied reviewers are using it on very long lines) and if you find its no better/worse than your current router then you can return it back to Amazon within 30 days for a full refund...obviously keep the packaging. Do post your feedback if you go for the 7800N as i'm sure it will be useful for others smile
http://www.amazon.co.uk/Billion-BiPAC-7800N-Broadban...

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Administrator MrSaffron
(staff) Fri 24-Feb-12 10:40:43
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Re: What router will work?


[re: gouledw] [link to this post]
 
Why did they lock the target margin? Your request or theirs? Unusual for them to do so.

NOTE: ISP has control of this, though people you are talking to may not have control, hence claiming only BT Wholesale has control.

An SNR reset will do nothing for you if you have the low targets set.

Andrew Ferguson, andrew@thinkbroadband.com
www.thinkbroadband.com - formerly known as ADSLguide.org.uk
The author of the above post is a thinkbroadband staff member. It may not constitute an official statement on behalf of thinkbroadband.
Standard User MHC
(legend) Fri 24-Feb-12 10:46:28
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Re: What router will work?


[re: gouledw] [link to this post]
 
Who knows if another will hold the line ...

The BT Business hub 2700HGV-C is one of the best on long lines and can hold the line down to around 0dB SNR - I have actually seen my 2700 running for quite a while with a negative SNR (< 0.0 dB).

Get a copy of Router Stats or Router Stats Lite and run that for 24 hours with samples every 30 seconds and monitor the SNR and sync speed. Then host the graphs on a suitable site and provide a link to them. From the graphs it is possible to suggest the best time to resync to get continuity of service at a good (not best) speed for the line. I played around with a line about 18 months back - the user was seeing frequent disconnects and then slow speeds ... Afterwards he was seeing a good speed ( lower than maximum) but it stayed synced for almost 30 days before we initiated a resync.

You are already exceeding expectations and many will find that a line of that length will not work at all.

You may also want to "protect" the modem by making sure there is nothing electronic or electrical close by, that it is as close to the master as possible and there is nothing electrical close to the path of the incoming 'phone wire.





~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


M H C


taurus excreta cerebrum vincit
Standard User john2007
(legend) Fri 24-Feb-12 12:02:50
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Re: What router will work?


[re: MHC] [link to this post]
 
Link to RouterStats http://www.vwlowen.co.uk/internet/files.htm
Standard User b4dger
(knowledge is power) Fri 24-Feb-12 12:18:09
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Re: What router will work?


[re: gouledw] [link to this post]
 
When you loose sync the router should reconnect automatically.
If this is due to your noise margin going too low in the middle of the night then the new sync/connection speed should be lower which will give you a slower but more stable line.

Isn't this happening for you?

Standard User gouledw
(learned) Fri 24-Feb-12 12:55:02
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Re: What router will work?


[re: john2007] [link to this post]
 
I have a REIN engineer coming out this afternoon to check the line, and possibly install an RF3 filter, we have a master socket with a vDSL faceplate. And I think I will try the router on the advice. BT locked it in, someone in HLC because if the speed drops, it drops a long way
Standard User gouledw
(learned) Fri 24-Feb-12 18:34:15
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Re: What router will work?


[re: gouledw] [link to this post]
 
REIN engineer came today and found nothing major wrong with the line. So I think I am going to go ahead with the router, as I believe I can control the SNR on it? And will arrange another engineer after a week of testing with the Billion if the problem still persists. Im thinking if after that, the only solution will be to move to Business Grade broadband where the SNR will not drop at night.
Standard User b4dger
(knowledge is power) Fri 24-Feb-12 18:36:24
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Re: What router will work?


[re: gouledw] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by gouledw:
...the only solution will be to move to Business Grade broadband where the SNR will not drop at night.
I'm afraid it doesn't work like that! frown #Physics

Standard User baby_frogmella
(committed) Fri 24-Feb-12 18:50:31
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Re: What router will work?


[re: gouledw] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by gouledw:
REIN engineer came today and found nothing major wrong with the line. So I think I am going to go ahead with the router, as I believe I can control the SNR on it? And will arrange another engineer after a week of testing with the Billion if the problem still persists. Im thinking if after that, the only solution will be to move to Business Grade broadband where the SNR will not drop at night.


Yes you can change the target SNR on the Billion 7800N:

go to http://192.168.1.254/snr.cgi
and enter one of the values below and save.

standard values are.
200 = +6dB
150 = +3dB
100 = +0dB
50 = -3dB
25 = -4.5db
1 = -5.5dB

The command does not accept negative numbers. However the command can be tricked into accepting negative numbers by entering high positive numbers.

65500 = -9dB
65480 = -9.5dB
65450 = -12dB

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Administrator MrSaffron
(staff) Fri 24-Feb-12 20:06:04
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Re: What router will work?


[re: b4dger] [link to this post]
 
Beat me to it, unless by business grade then something delivered over fibre all the way to property.

Andrew Ferguson, andrew@thinkbroadband.com
www.thinkbroadband.com - formerly known as ADSLguide.org.uk
The author of the above post is a thinkbroadband staff member. It may not constitute an official statement on behalf of thinkbroadband.
Standard User gouledw
(learned) Fri 24-Feb-12 20:28:13
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Re: What router will work?


[re: b4dger] [link to this post]
 
How does it work then? And thanks for that babyf :') I will keep you updated on how it all goes :').
Standard User MHC
(legend) Fri 24-Feb-12 22:13:34
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Re: What router will work?


[re: gouledw] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by gouledw:
REIN engineer came today and found nothing major wrong with the line. So I think I am going to go ahead with the router, as I believe I can control the SNR on it? And will arrange another engineer after a week of testing with the Billion if the problem still persists. Im thinking if after that, the only solution will be to move to Business Grade broadband where the SNR will not drop at night.


Does business grade use a different version of the laws of physics?


Why not read the advice given and take some of it.

A REIN Engineer was a waste of time and money - that is not your problem, your problem is a long line and the inherent issues they have. You cannot change the fact and throwing money at it will not resolve the issues.





~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


M H C


taurus excreta cerebrum vincit

Edited by MHC (Fri 24-Feb-12 22:15:49)

Standard User XRaySpeX
(eat-sleep-adslguide) Fri 24-Feb-12 22:27:58
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Re: What router will work?


[re: baby_frogmella] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by baby_frogmella:
200 = +6dB
150 = +3dB
OP only needs +ve dBs; might even need +12dB, is that 300?

1999: Freeserve 48K Dial-Up => 2005: Wanadoo 1 Meg BB => 2007: Orange 2 Meg BB => 2008: Orange 8 Meg LLU => 2010: Orange 16 Meg LLU => 2011: Orange 19 Meg WBC
Standard User gouledw
(learned) Sat 25-Feb-12 09:03:11
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Re: What router will work?


[re: MHC] [link to this post]
 
Yes throwing money at it will help, and has helped. I paid Openreach £30,000 to have part of the line replaced, that wasn't faulty, but had it upgraded from DIG cable .5 to .9 gauge to increase the broadband speed. And would be happy to dish out another £30k if needs be. So I dont really think trying a new router, is a complete waste of time, you never know until you try.

And the REIN was BT not me.
Standard User b4dger
(knowledge is power) Sat 25-Feb-12 11:04:15
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Re: What router will work?


[re: gouledw] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by gouledw:
How does it work then?
Whether you are on an ADSL 'business' package or 'normal' package your lines noise margin will work the same.
(Unless as MrS says you switch to a FTTH/P connection.)

Your noise margin will fluctuate from your line's Target margin and if it gets too low the line will lose connection/sync. All you can do is make sure you've optimised your wiring to ensure you get the best out of things.

Router choice does make a big difference (see my story in my signature) but again, you can only make the best of things. You seem to be on a very long line with that attenuation so there's a limit on any improvements you can make. Increasing your noise margin (either via your ISP or by tweaking your router) will help stabilise your connection by trading off sync speed for margin.

Administrator MrSaffron
(staff) Sat 25-Feb-12 11:16:29
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Re: What router will work?


[re: gouledw] [link to this post]
 
£30k and just 2.5Meg out of it?

Even with 0.9 gauge your attenuation is high, if you are wanting speed then consider BET, which is £1k to £2k

NOTE REIN is rarely created by BT but arises from electrical hardware and AM radio stations. I

Andrew Ferguson, andrew@thinkbroadband.com
www.thinkbroadband.com - formerly known as ADSLguide.org.uk
The author of the above post is a thinkbroadband staff member. It may not constitute an official statement on behalf of thinkbroadband.
Standard User BatBoy
(legend) Sat 25-Feb-12 11:22:19
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Re: What router will work?


[re: MrSaffron] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by MrSaffron:
£30k and just 2.5Meg out of it?

Even with 0.9 gauge your attenuation is high, if you are wanting speed then consider BET, which is £1k to £2k

NOTE REIN is rarely created by BT but arises from electrical hardware and AM radio stations. I
Wouldn't a 2nd, maybe 3rd line be more cost effective?



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Standard User gouledw
(learned) Sat 25-Feb-12 12:26:53
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Re: What router will work?


[re: BatBoy] [link to this post]
 
I couldn't put in any additinal lines, the existing one, was underground and not ducted, and there was about a km of it. So I paid to have some new poles, and new ducting and higher gauge cable.
Standard User BatBoy
(legend) Sat 25-Feb-12 15:24:56
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Re: What router will work?


[re: gouledw] [link to this post]
 
Can you get additional lines now?



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Standard User gouledw
(learned) Sat 25-Feb-12 15:51:54
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Re: What router will work?


[re: BatBoy] [link to this post]
 
Yes but Im not willing to move from BT Retail.
Standard User BatBoy
(legend) Sat 25-Feb-12 15:57:50
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Re: What router will work?


[re: gouledw] [link to this post]
 
You could have multiple lines with BT retail. You could use load balancing to multiply your speeds.



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Standard User gouledw
(learned) Sat 25-Feb-12 16:05:32
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Re: What router will work?


[re: BatBoy] [link to this post]
 
How would I achieve this? I guess I would need a special router?
Standard User BatBoy
(legend) Sat 25-Feb-12 17:24:47
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Re: What router will work?


[re: gouledw] [link to this post]
 
Yes, something like this takes 2 ADSL routers and combines the connection http://www.netgear.co.uk/business/products/security/...

This does 3 lines http://www.peplink.com/balance/benefits/



______________________________________________________________________________. __________________

Edited by BatBoy (Sat 25-Feb-12 17:30:19)

Standard User gouledw
(learned) Thu 01-Mar-12 13:47:04
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Re: What router will work?


[re: BatBoy] [link to this post]
 
Just recieved the router, connected it up, and my current stats are

Downstream: 4138kbps Upstream: 448
SNR: 6.2/17dB
Attenuation: 63.5/31.5dB
Standard User b4dger
(knowledge is power) Thu 01-Mar-12 15:19:50
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Re: What router will work?


[re: gouledw] [link to this post]
 
Great sync with that attenuation smile

It will be interesting to see how things go...


EDIT: As cost doesn't seem to be a problem for you, combining a few lines would seem to be the way to go as others have said...

Edited by b4dger (Thu 01-Mar-12 15:23:18)

Administrator MrSaffron
(staff) Thu 01-Mar-12 15:28:08
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Re: What router will work?


[re: b4dger] [link to this post]
 
From what I understand the lines that were run, where all the copper pairs run to the area, which is a surprise, as I would expect there to be a few spare pairs, to at least reduce cost to BT if a repair was ever needed.

Andrew Ferguson, andrew@thinkbroadband.com
www.thinkbroadband.com - formerly known as ADSLguide.org.uk
The author of the above post is a thinkbroadband staff member. It may not constitute an official statement on behalf of thinkbroadband.
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