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Standard User youngsyp
(learned) Fri 29-Jun-12 09:41:23
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Router choice for TT LLU service


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Hi all,

I'm due to be migrated over to Vivaciti's Variety LLU package on Tuesday. I want to buy a new router and just thought I'd canvas some opinions.
I'm keen to match hardware as it's worked very well for me in the past and with that in mind, I was set on buying a Draytek Vigo 2830n as I'm aware it uses an Infineon chipset and so does the MSAN in my exchange (alledgedly). However, for me, the point of matching hardware is not only for ultimate throughput but, for ultimate stability and uptime too. And I've read mixed reviews on Draytek kit cincerning those points.
So, I'm now considering a Billion BiPac 7800n as it's allows SNR tweaking and is also reported to be very stable, with a Broadcom chipset onboard.
Another point to consider is that I'm not sure whether it was Tiscali who put the LLU kit in the exchange, before being taken over by TalkTalk. If they did, that would also like be using Broadcom chipsets.

Any experiences with either product, you'd care to share or advice in general would be welcome.

Thanks in advance,

Paul
Standard User NilSatisOptimum
(committed) Fri 29-Jun-12 10:18:56
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Re: Router choice for TT LLU service


[re: youngsyp] [link to this post]
 
Ive always had shocking experiences when matching chipsets about as reliable as a Bank. Dont think you will go far wrong with either you mention, however as i use the billion, it works, very stable plus all the snr fiddling as you mention. Some people dont like the look and can have its own issues with the wireless.

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Standard User youngsyp
(learned) Fri 29-Jun-12 10:46:24
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Re: Router choice for TT LLU service


[re: NilSatisOptimum] [link to this post]
 
Thanks for the response.

I'm not worried about looks as it'll be in the loft. The wireless gremlins I am bothered about though and have read about these elsewhere.
Having performed a little more reading on the Draytek, it seems the stabilty issues are only apparent with low SNR's. As I've requested/ will be on a 6dB profile, that won't be an issue.

Interestingly, I've just swapped over to a Speedtouch 585v8 on my current service and it reports to have an Infineon chipset onboard. So, maybe I should hold off and give that a try when my line goes live.

Paul


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Standard User baby_frogmella
(experienced) Fri 29-Jun-12 10:51:26
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Re: Router choice for TT LLU service


[re: youngsyp] [link to this post]
 
Chances are your exchange will have a Infineon chipset and if that is the case, then even tweaking the SNR on a broadcom chipset router won't really benefit you as an Infineon router will sync around a couple of meg higher. Go for an Infineon router and in case you find it syncs on the low side, then try a broadcom router. Also you might be wasting your money on the Draytek 2830 (~£200) if you're not going to use any of its advanced features. You could always go for pure bridge ethernet modem such as Draytek 120 V2 and connect that to a top class router such as Netgear WNDR4500 (N900), Asus RT56U or Cisco EA4500.

These are the line stats when i tried different routers on my talktalk LLU line:

Billion 7800N (Broadcom 6358)
Downstream sync: 15049 kbps
DS Attenuation: 27db
DS SNR: 6.1 db

Billion 7800N (Broadcom 6358)
Downstream sync: 17849 kbps
DS Attenuation: 27db
DS SNR: 3.0db (tweaked)

Linksys X2000 (Broadcom 6328)
Downstream sync: 15990 kbps
DS Attenuation: ?
DS SNR: ? db

Draytek 120 v2 (Danube Infineon)
Downstream sync: 17571 kbps
DS Attenuation: 29db
DS SNR: 6.2 db

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Standard User b4dger
(knowledge is power) Fri 29-Jun-12 11:42:25
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Re: Router choice for TT LLU service


[re: NilSatisOptimum] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by NilSatisOptimum:
Ive always had shocking experiences when matching chipsets about as reliable as a Bank.
smile

I agree - matching chipsets isn't always the answer. It's finding a chipset that works best on your line that counts. That's why lots of us end up with a cupboard full of routers!

Standard User youngsyp
(learned) Fri 29-Jun-12 11:54:51
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Re: Router choice for TT LLU service


[re: baby_frogmella] [link to this post]
 
Interesting and I see your point re the SNR tweaking but, your results seem to contradict that. From memory, in the ideal world, every 1dB of SNRM is worth around 450kbps. WIth that in mind, using your 6dB SNR sync on the Billion as an example, I should sync at 16049kbps with a 3dB SNR (tweaked). But your results show a 2800kbps increase from a 3dB drop in SNR. Did you perform other tweaks to get your end result?

I've found the Draytek for a little less than £200 and would happily spend the money as I'd use a fair amount of it's features. Having said that, I've found the Billion for quite a bit less than £100... I'd also like an integrated solution so have ruled out a separate modem and ethernet router.

Paul
Standard User greenglide
(committed) Fri 29-Jun-12 11:56:49
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Re: Router choice for TT LLU service


[re: youngsyp] [link to this post]
 
I have a Draytek 2820N (had it for several years now) and it has been an excellent stable piece of kit.

Recently I invested in a Billion 7800N to try some line tweaking after moving house (both on Be*).

In terms of stability and speed both work well. I find the GUI of the Draytek better (personal preference) and the GUI of the Draytek gives more data about line status, cumulative daily and weekly volumes of data transferred as well as instantaneous data volumes.

You can really lose with either.

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Standard User youngsyp
(learned) Fri 29-Jun-12 12:01:01
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Re: Router choice for TT LLU service


[re: b4dger] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by b4dger:
In reply to a post by NilSatisOptimum:
Ive always had shocking experiences when matching chipsets about as reliable as a Bank.
smile

I agree - matching chipsets isn't always the answer. It's finding a chipset that works best on your line that counts. That's why lots of us end up with a cupboard full of routers!
Indeed, I'm starting to appreciate that too.

I have a handful of routers available to me now. One with a Texas Instruments chipset (Netgear DG834Gv3), one with an Infineon chipset (Thompson TG585v8) and one with a Broadcom chipset (Sagem 2504n).

I guess I'm just trying to narrow down a list to a couple of choices and work from that. FInding answers is very difficult due to the inherent variances with everyones broadband connectiosn and dare I say it, the amount of poor information about where for example, people state the flavour of the month is the best then change their mind when they try something else. So, I plan to post a detailed, objective, write up with my findings, when I'm done, in the hope that it will help others.

Paul
Standard User youngsyp
(learned) Fri 29-Jun-12 12:04:14
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Re: Router choice for TT LLU service


[re: greenglide] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by greenglide:
I have a Draytek 2820N (had it for several years now) and it has been an excellent stable piece of kit.

Recently I invested in a Billion 7800N to try some line tweaking after moving house (both on Be*).

In terms of stability and speed both work well. I find the GUI of the Draytek better (personal preference) and the GUI of the Draytek gives more data about line status, cumulative daily and weekly volumes of data transferred as well as instantaneous data volumes.

You can really lose with either.
Thanks for the response.

Are you using/ have you used both the devices as integrated devices? Or just used the router parts?

Thanks,

Paul
Standard User baby_frogmella
(experienced) Fri 29-Jun-12 12:13:55
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Re: Router choice for TT LLU service


[re: youngsyp] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by youngsyp:
Interesting and I see your point re the SNR tweaking but, your results seem to contradict that. From memory, in the ideal world, every 1dB of SNRM is worth around 450kbps. WIth that in mind, using your 6dB SNR sync on the Billion as an example, I should sync at 16049kbps with a 3dB SNR (tweaked). But your results show a 2800kbps increase from a 3dB drop in SNR. Did you perform other tweaks to get your end result?


Nup, no other tweaking other than lowering my SNR on the Billion. The point i was trying to make was that the Billion when tweaked more or less gave me the same speed as the Draytek UNtweaked, so obviously makes sense to stick with the Draytek.

In your case, definitely go with the Draytek 2820/2830. As greenglide has said draytek do make quality routers so pretty sure you won't be disappointed. Let us know how you get on! smile

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