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Standard User dewi
(regular) Tue 02-May-17 16:30:31
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Best ADSL modem for long line?


[link to this post]
 
I'm stuck with a long ADSL line (6.2 km) with little likelihood of FTTC any time soon. I get about 2 Mb/s.

I currently have a Billion 7800N. I recently added a Netgear Orbi, which I've configured as an Access Point. I've switched off Wi-Fi on the Billion 7800N.

I've been having problems where I lose connectivity. The connection returns if I wait a few minutes, or immediately if I reboot the router. The line doesn't drop. I can still access the router GUI. I just can't access the internet. The Billion is quite old. The casing is going yellow on top, suggesting that it runs quite hot. I'm considering trying a new modem/router to see if it'll fix my problems.

My main requirements, should I buy a new router are:

1. Line speed and stability at least as good as the Billion 7800N (preferably better).
2. Better QoS, so I can prioritise e.g. game traffic and web surfing over the SkyQ box downloading TV programs.

I'm not interested in Wi-Fi performance, as the Netgear Orbi handles Wi-Fi very well.

I've considered:

1. Billion 8900AX-1600 R2 (£169.99)
2. Asus DSL-AC88U (£199.98)

These would both give me a more modern and faster Broadcom chipset than the 7800N. The Asus would also give me better QoS. Both are very expensive, however. Thoughts?

Thanks in anticipation,
Dewi
Administrator MrSaffron
(staff) Tue 02-May-17 17:41:18
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Re: Best ADSL modem for long line?


[re: dewi] [link to this post]
 
I see little benefit from spending £200 when line is so slow.

A visit to ebay and a search for 2wire router reveals what was a few years considered a very good brand for ADSL2+ connections and at £5 to £10 its not much of a lose if it does not improve things.

What are your ADSL stats? Presume downstream attenuation is nailed at 63dB or higher.

The author of the above post is a thinkbroadband staff member. It may not constitute an official statement on behalf of thinkbroadband.
Standard User craski
(member) Tue 02-May-17 18:15:57
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Re: Best ADSL modem for long line?


[re: dewi] [link to this post]
 
I've had good service from a Billion 8800NL on a long ADSL line. I primarily bought it as it allowed me to tweak SNRM as I have a long but stable line and the Billion allowed me to improve it slightly and it maintains sync for several months at a time. I have read on these forums that the latest version of the 8800NL use a cheaper Broadcom chipset but it still seems to be a good device with its weak spot being the wifi but you have that covered with your Orbi anyway.

Zen Unlimited Fibre Office BQM


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Standard User Banger
(eat-sleep-adslguide) Tue 02-May-17 18:43:01
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Re: Best ADSL modem for long line?


[re: dewi] [link to this post]
 
As Mr Saffron says a cheap 2 wire, or a TP-Link WD9970 which I have tested on ADSL2+ and VDSL2.

Both can be picked up on Ebay relatively cheaply. If you're handy with telnet the TP-Link can also be tweaked.

Tim
www.uno.net.uk & freenetname
Asus DSL-N55U and TP-Link WD9970 on 80 Meg LLU Fibre
http://www.thinkbroadband.com/speedtest/results.html...

Current Sync: 68696/18766
Standard User 961a
(member) Tue 02-May-17 18:55:08
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Re: Best ADSL modem for long line?


[re: MrSaffron] [link to this post]
 
I don't think you'll find a better than the Billion you already have

I was in a similar situation and nothing I tried did better than the Broadcom chipset in your router

If it's getting old, try a new one that you can return under distance selling regs, but is the line in need of maintenance after a wet and windy winter?
Standard User MHC
(sensei) Wed 03-May-17 01:12:54
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Re: Best ADSL modem for long line?


[re: dewi] [link to this post]
 
As Mr S says - go for a 2wire. The model to look for is the 2700HGV and NOT the 2701. They may be old and do not always have the functionality of newer devices but they are probably the best log line ADSL modem available. I put one on a 9km ADSL line and the speed increased a little but more importantly it stopped the drop outs and loss of connection.After tidying up internal wiring, speeds improved even more and finally the SNR margin dropped to 3dB and it still remained stable.

An investment of £10 is worth trying out and if you don't see an improvement, they make excellent wireless access points!


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

M H C


taurus excreta cerebrum vincit
Standard User baby_frogmella
(fountain of knowledge) Wed 03-May-17 05:17:36
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Re: Best ADSL modem for long line?


[re: dewi] [link to this post]
 
In addition to the BT 2wire 2700HGV, the Thomson Speedtouch ST585v6 is another excellent choice for very long adsl1/adsl2+ lines. On my 65db attenuation line in Kent donkeys years ago, it was only these 2 routers which hung onto my connection like grim death. I suggest buying both (they're cheap as chips).

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/BT-2-Wire-Gateway-Business...

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Thomson-Speedtouch-585-v6-...

--------------------------------------------------------------------
Waiting for FluidOne FTTPoD 330/30 mbps installation
1) Order placed
2) Survey done
3) Test rodding of ducts
4) Fibre laid
5) Jointing work - due 15/05/17

Edited by baby_frogmella (Wed 03-May-17 05:18:03)

Standard User RobertoS
(elder) Wed 03-May-17 11:45:30
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Re: Best ADSL modem for long line?


[re: baby_frogmella] [link to this post]
 
IIRC there was also a later 585v7, which should be avoided like the plague. The v6 has the Broadcom chipset, but the v7 a Conexant one and is nothing like as good.

My broadband basic info/help site - www.robertos.me.uk. Domains, site and mail hosting - Tsohost.
Connection - AAISP Home::1 80/20. Sync 63086/13719Kbps @ 600m. BQMs - IPv4 & IPv6
Standard User dewi
(regular) Wed 03-May-17 12:31:27
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Re: Best ADSL modem for long line?


[re: MrSaffron] [link to this post]
 
The 2wire router is an excellent suggestion. It's got to be worth a try at £5-10.

My downstream attenuation is 60 dB. Currently synced at 2371.
Standard User dewi
(regular) Wed 03-May-17 12:38:33
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Re: Best ADSL modem for long line?


[re: 961a] [link to this post]
 
Unfortunately, you can no longer buy the Billion 7800N new. When I asked Billion whether the 8800NL or the 8900AX would be the better choice for my long line, they replied, "My technical colleagues say the 8900AX-1600 R2 should be better on your long line, due to it being a more expensive DSL chipset and more processing power". The problem is that the 8900AX is £169.

I think I'll try a 2wire modem from Ebay as recommended by Mr Saffron. Even if it doesn't fix the problem, at least I'll be able to tell my ISP that I've tried a different modem.
Standard User dewi
(regular) Wed 03-May-17 12:42:53
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Re: Best ADSL modem for long line?


[re: MHC] [link to this post]
 
What's the reason for preferring the 2700HGV over the 2701? I'm not interested in Wi-Fi performance as the Netgear Orbi takes care of Wi-Fi.

Is there any reason to prefer the newer 2700HGV-C over a 2700HGV?
Standard User dewi
(regular) Wed 03-May-17 12:49:04
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Re: Best ADSL modem for long line?


[re: baby_frogmella] [link to this post]
 
Hmm, I think I have a Thomson 585 router lying around somewhere. I'll see if I can find it.
Standard User MHC
(sensei) Wed 03-May-17 12:52:44
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Re: Best ADSL modem for long line?


[re: dewi] [link to this post]
 
The 2701 was a redesign with a WAN input added to allow working with a VDSL Modem. The LAN and user interface remained the same however various reports suggested that the ADSL modem performance was inferior to that of the 2700.

The -C is fine and preferable as they will be te final build standard.

Have a look at: http://bt2700hgv.tripod.com/002.htm the site is dedicated to the 2700/2701



And there are reasonable history entries in teh GUI showing attenuation and SNR immediately before any resync/disconnect.


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

M H C


taurus excreta cerebrum vincit

Edited by MHC (Wed 03-May-17 12:54:29)

Standard User RobertoS
(elder) Wed 03-May-17 12:57:34
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Re: Best ADSL modem for long line?


[re: dewi] [link to this post]
 
Thinking back, I don't think a Speedtouch is a good idea. I had a couple, but they always dropped the connection and re-synced if the noise margin (SNRM) fell below 3dB. I changed to a series of Netgear 834s over the years, (again the suffix G GT N etc. matters and the version number is important), and they sync'ed about 500Kbps higher and held the connection down to 0dB margin and often -1dB.

Even then the 2-Wires where clearly better on very long lines than the Netgears.

My broadband basic info/help site - www.robertos.me.uk. Domains, site and mail hosting - Tsohost.
Connection - AAISP Home::1 80/20. Sync 63086/13719Kbps @ 600m. BQMs - IPv4 & IPv6

Edited by RobertoS (Wed 03-May-17 12:58:36)

Standard User dewi
(regular) Wed 03-May-17 12:59:15
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Re: Best ADSL modem for long line?


[re: MHC] [link to this post]
 
Thanks. That's excellent information.

I got confused. The -C is a 2701HGV-C, so it sounds like that should be avoided.
Standard User dewi
(regular) Wed 03-May-17 13:01:41
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Re: Best ADSL modem for long line?


[re: RobertoS] [link to this post]
 
Thanks for the info. It sounds like the 2wire is the way to go.
Standard User baby_frogmella
(fountain of knowledge) Wed 03-May-17 13:06:17
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Re: Best ADSL modem for long line?


[re: RobertoS] [link to this post]
 
My experience with the ST585V6 was excellent. I remember it holding onto my connection solidly even with < 1 db snr. However I agree non-broadcom versions of the 585 (eg v7) were horrible.

--------------------------------------------------------------------
Waiting for FluidOne FTTPoD 330/30 mbps installation
1) Order placed
2) Survey done
3) Test rodding of ducts
4) Fibre laid
5) Jointing work - due 15/05/17

Edited by baby_frogmella (Wed 03-May-17 13:14:17)

Standard User wolvesmad
(fountain of knowledge) Wed 03-May-17 13:15:38
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Re: Best ADSL modem for long line?


[re: dewi] [link to this post]
 
Netgear DG834GT was a brilliant router on my 5km line.

Broadcom chipset in the exchange.

-

BT BroadbandInfinity 2
Administrator MrSaffron
(staff) Wed 03-May-17 13:22:43
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Re: Best ADSL modem for long line?


[re: dewi] [link to this post]
 
Okay so attenuation and sync are roughly what you would expect, for copper this suggests a line 5 to 6km long, but if Al involved then line will be shorter (and may explain estimates from checkers)

The author of the above post is a thinkbroadband staff member. It may not constitute an official statement on behalf of thinkbroadband.
Standard User MHC
(sensei) Wed 03-May-17 14:26:43
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Re: Best ADSL modem for long line?


[re: dewi] [link to this post]
 
Definitely avoid any 2701 variants.


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

M H C


taurus excreta cerebrum vincit
Standard User 4M2
(knowledge is power) Wed 03-May-17 15:16:09
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Re: Best ADSL modem for long line?


[re: dewi] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by dewi:
Thanks for the info. It sounds like the 2wire is the way to go.


Or an unused Billion 7800 (the version without the dodgy wireless card.) I was tempted to buy one from a seller on ebay (buy-it-now or best offer) but the seller was wrongly describing it as a 7800N - hence the sale was best avoided.

However I did get a new 7800N from another seller cheaply (best offer) disabled WLAN and it is performing well on ADSL2+ with a downstream attenuation of 37.5dB smile
Standard User RobertoS
(elder) Wed 03-May-17 15:18:12
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Re: Best ADSL modem for long line?


[re: 4M2] [link to this post]
 
That's a relatively short line.

My broadband basic info/help site - www.robertos.me.uk. Domains, site and mail hosting - Tsohost.
Connection - AAISP Home::1 80/20. Sync 63086/13719Kbps @ 600m. BQMs - IPv4 & IPv6
Standard User 4M2
(knowledge is power) Wed 03-May-17 15:31:55
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Re: Best ADSL modem for long line?


[re: RobertoS] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by RobertoS:
That's a relatively short line.


Sure - OP's downstream attenuation is 60dB but it does seem that his 7800N was performing well before it possibly overheated?
Standard User dewi
(regular) Wed 03-May-17 15:53:03
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Re: Best ADSL modem for long line?


[re: 4M2] [link to this post]
 
I've been happy with the performance of my Billion 7800N except that I've been experiencing problems that can be solved by rebooting the router. Buying a 2way modem for £5-10 seems the way to go, as that'll tell me whether the problem is with the modem or the line.
Standard User 4M2
(knowledge is power) Wed 03-May-17 16:14:56
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Re: Best ADSL modem for long line?


[re: dewi] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by dewi:
I've been happy with the performance of my Billion 7800N except that I've been experiencing problems that can be solved by rebooting the router. Buying a 2way modem for £5-10 seems the way to go, as that'll tell me whether the problem is with the modem or the line.


OK - good luck smile
Standard User dewi
(regular) Wed 03-May-17 18:41:18
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Re: Best ADSL modem for long line?


[re: dewi] [link to this post]
 
Found it and it's a 585v7. Drat!
Standard User dewi
(regular) Wed 03-May-17 19:18:45
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Re: Best ADSL modem for long line?


[re: MHC] [link to this post]
 
Thanks. I've bought a 2700HGV on Ebay.
Standard User dewi
(regular) Sun 07-May-17 15:27:45
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Re: Best ADSL modem for long line?


[re: dewi] [link to this post]
 
I've installed the 2700HGV I bought from Ebay for £8.50. It was BNIB (though 9 years old). It synced at 2605 kbps (compared to 2403 kbps immediately before-hand with the Billion). I haven't had any disconnects yet, so it's looking good so far.

It came loaded with BT v5.29.117.6 firmware. I haven't been able to figure out how to block any possible upgrade to BT v6 firmware (the instructions at http://bt2700hgv.tripod.com/032.htm are now out-of-date).

My next step will be to configure the 2700HGV in bridge mode so that I can use the Netgear Orbi as my router (rather than an AP).
Standard User MHC
(sensei) Sun 07-May-17 22:23:23
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Re: Best ADSL modem for long line?


[re: dewi] [link to this post]
 
Let it run for a day or so more and see if there are any disconnects.

I have one running with 6.1.1.48.1-enh.tm as an access point - all is fine. If your does go to V6 firmware don't worry too much as teh modem front end does not seem to change.


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

M H C


taurus excreta cerebrum vincit
Standard User dewi
(regular) Tue 09-May-17 10:00:34
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Re: Best ADSL modem for long line?


[re: MHC] [link to this post]
 
Not looking good so far. On Sunday evening, it resynced at 1425 kbps. It resynced overnight to 2625 kbps. Last night, it resynced to 1425 kbps again. This morning, it was still on 1425 kbps but then resynced to 2625 kbps.
Standard User RobertoS
(elder) Tue 09-May-17 10:08:21
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Re: Best ADSL modem for long line?


[re: dewi] [link to this post]
 
When it is sync'ed at 1425Kbps, does the phone have a dial tone? Similarly when at 2625.

If yes at 2625 and no at 1425, one leg of the pair is getting intermittent physical disconnects.

My broadband basic info/help site - www.robertos.me.uk. Domains, site and mail hosting - Tsohost.
Connection - AAISP Home::1 80/20. Sync 63086/13719Kbps @ 600m. BQMs - IPv4 & IPv6

Edited by RobertoS (Tue 09-May-17 10:11:27)

Standard User MHC
(sensei) Tue 09-May-17 10:09:29
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Re: Best ADSL modem for long line?


[re: dewi] [link to this post]
 
That really looks like a noise issue kicking in and out. There are logs in the 2700 that show teh status just before a resync ...have a look at te SNR figures at that point.


<Settings> <Diagnostics> <DSL>

Can you do a screen shot of the Training History Table; the Mgn2 figure will be of interest.


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

M H C


taurus excreta cerebrum vincit
Standard User dewi
(regular) Wed 10-May-17 09:39:57
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Re: Best ADSL modem for long line?


[re: MHC] [link to this post]
 
Same thing happened last night. About 9 pm, the line dropped and resynced at 1512 kbps. This morning, it resynced at 2625 kbps. Time to contact my ISP, I think.

How do I read the logs on BT Firmware v5.29.117.6? If I go to <Broadband Line> <Diagnostics>, the only option is to run diagnostic tests.

Where do I find the Training History Table?
Standard User MHC
(sensei) Wed 10-May-17 09:53:41
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Re: Best ADSL modem for long line?


[re: dewi] [link to this post]
 
It is not really an ISP issue - if it happens every evening and then again in the morning there has to be a possible noise problem which the ISP has no control over.

I have a model, the same as yours, somewhere! but cannot find it at present - I think it is in use with a friend on a very long, long line.

Under settings, is there a Diagnostics tab? And if so, what is shown there? What further tabs are there?


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

M H C


taurus excreta cerebrum vincit
Standard User MHC
(sensei) Wed 10-May-17 09:58:23
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Re: Best ADSL modem for long line?


[re: dewi] [link to this post]
 
You could also try using the Management and Diagnostic access:

http://gateway.2wire.net/mdc http://homeportal/mdc or 192.xxx.xxx.xxx/mdc (use the IP address yours is set to)


or maybe: http:/192.xxx.xxx.xxx/xslt?PAGE=C_5_3

You could work through all options changing the values in C_5_3 Using A-D for the first, 0-6 for the second and 0-6 for the third! It is almost certainly under the C_x_x area.


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

M H C


taurus excreta cerebrum vincit

Edited by MHC (Wed 10-May-17 10:05:58)

Standard User dewi
(regular) Wed 10-May-17 18:57:16
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Re: Best ADSL modem for long line?


[re: MHC] [link to this post]
 
192.xxx.xxx.xxx/mdc did it. I should have remembered that from when I unlocked it!

The training history is as follows:

https://www.dropbox.com/s/tvipgs8qxquac4v/dsl_diagno...
Standard User MHC
(sensei) Wed 10-May-17 22:24:26
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Re: Best ADSL modem for long line?


[re: dewi] [link to this post]
 
Looks as though your target margin is 15dB - maybe because of noise &c.

The ERR_SIGNAL_INTERRUPT indicates that the modem looses the signal quite suddenly and then has trouble retraining immediately shown by ERR_INCONSISTENT_SIGNAL. Is there something new in the house that creates electrical noise?


The morning resync is when the noise source disappears and the modem realises there is extra speed available - in each of the three cases there is 5dB extra which it uses to increase te speed from 1400 to 2500.


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

M H C


taurus excreta cerebrum vincit
Standard User RobertoS
(elder) Wed 10-May-17 22:28:49
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Re: Best ADSL modem for long line?


[re: MHC] [link to this post]
 
A modem that auto-resyncs when noise drops? AIUI we don't have rate adaptation at the moment either.

My broadband basic info/help site - www.robertos.me.uk. Domains, site and mail hosting - Tsohost.
Connection - AAISP Home::1 80/20. Sync 63086/13719Kbps @ 600m. BQMs - IPv4 & IPv6
Standard User dewi
(regular) Thu 11-May-17 11:01:57
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Re: Best ADSL modem for long line?


[re: MHC] [link to this post]
 
I phoned Zen last night.They surmise that an appliance is injecting a noise spike in the evening, followed by continuing line noise that causes the modem to resync at the lower rate. They said it was curious that it resyncs in the morning, since the modem wouldn't resync just because the noise had gone away. That suggests there's another spike when the appliance switches off. Since the noise has then gone away, the modem resyncs at the higher rate.

I've been scratching my head trying to think what comes on about 9 pm at night, stays on all night, then switches off in the morning. I can't think of anything in the house that fits that description. I wonder if the problem is caused by the lamps in the street outside. The line drops seem to correspond to the times that the street lamps go on and off. We have overhead telephone cables. The council have recently replaced some of the sodium lamps with LED lamps.

Zen forced interleaving on, which resulted in the modem resyncing at 2777 kbps. The line didn't drop last night. I'll continue to monitor.
Standard User radiomarko
(experienced) Thu 11-May-17 12:38:49
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Re: Best ADSL modem for long line?


[re: dewi] [link to this post]
 
LED street lights are pulse modulated, their power supplies generate a lot of RFI as many radio amateurs will confirm, swamping HF frequencies with even more noise. Therefore they will affect xDSL.

-.-. --.-
BT Infinity 2, HG612, Billion 7800N; 79987/19999 Kbps. Online since 1987. Macs since 1979. Dreambox fun. Advanced Radio Amateur Licence and an anorak.
Standard User RobertoS
(elder) Thu 11-May-17 12:58:40
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Re: Best ADSL modem for long line?


[re: radiomarko] [link to this post]
 
Oh dear frown. The old one we had to ask lots of people next to railway lines, and in particular if they were close to level crossings.

LED street lights will inevitably spread.

My broadband basic info/help site - www.robertos.me.uk. Domains, site and mail hosting - Tsohost.
Connection - AAISP Home::1 80/20. Sync 63086/13719Kbps @ 600m. BQMs - IPv4 & IPv6

Edited by RobertoS (Thu 11-May-17 12:58:55)

Standard User 4M2
(knowledge is power) Thu 11-May-17 14:26:08
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Re: Best ADSL modem for long line?


[re: dewi] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by dewi:
The line didn't drop last night. I'll continue to monitor.


Monitoring with RouterStats-Lite I found useful - I was able to easily show the visiting OR SFI engineer the pattern of noise bursts causing a sudden downstream SNRM fall from 6dB to 0dB and the subsequent resync.

Best of luck.
Standard User MHC
(sensei) Thu 11-May-17 18:48:50
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Re: Best ADSL modem for long line?


[re: dewi] [link to this post]
 
Just watch tonight and see when teh lights go on! LED lights are known to give very high levels of RFI.

Keep checking the status page for sync speed and take screen shots ... Include the little bit loading graph at the bottom too.


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

M H C


taurus excreta cerebrum vincit
Standard User dewi
(regular) Wed 17-May-17 13:06:44
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Re: Best ADSL modem for long line?


[re: dewi] [link to this post]
 
The 2700HGV hasn't lost connection since Zen forced interleaving on last Wednesday, meaning that it remains connected at 2777 kbps. I'm very happy with that, as it's towards the upper end of the line speeds I was seeing with the Billion 7800N.

The noise margin is about 14.5 to 15.5 dB during the day, dropping to 5.5 dB every night.
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