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Standard User charlestown
(learned) Sat 31-Mar-18 12:12:01
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Faceplate change?


[link to this post]
 
When I moved over from ADSL to 76mbps fibre several years ago BT had an OpenReach engineer fit a new faceplate on the master socket. At the time they told me it was needed for fibre to work, but I could then happily ditch the micro-filters.

My father is just about to move from Sky ADSL to Vodafone 38mbps fibre and his master socket must be at least 12 years old now. The current faceplate has a slightly Heath Robinson setup with a cable underneath that stretches around the skirting board and into the lounge where a micro-filter then attaches to the router.

I've asked Vodafone about this, but they insist it should all just work normally. I'm wondering if I should put a new faceplate in the hall where the master socket is and rely on wifi for his new freesat box, while ditching the micro-filters in use between the router and also the phone. Any thoughts on the best way of doing this? I'm also struggling to find a local shop that sells these faceplates and they only seem to be available online.
Standard User RobertoS
(elder) Sat 31-Mar-18 12:48:26
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Re: Faceplate change?


[re: charlestown] [link to this post]
 
One important question is whether or not there are any other extensions in the house. Whether used or not!

Is the existing master socket (an NTE5A) with the split faceplate?

What is the speed estimate for the address? (His phone number is better if it is recognised but it probably won't be). Don't use the pure postcode option.

I ask that as if the "Impacted VDSL" line is up near 80Mbps the wiring probably won't matter. If it is below 50Mbps then it would be best to get this wiring sorted. We could also do with seeing the "Clean" figures.

What speed does he get on his Sky connection?

My broadband basic info/help site - www.robertos.me.uk. Domains, site and mail hosting - Tsohost.
Connection - AAISP Home::1 80/20. 200GB. Sync 71357/13895Kbps @ 600m. BQMs - IPv4 & IPv6

Edited by RobertoS (Sat 31-Mar-18 12:50:13)

Standard User charlestown
(learned) Sat 31-Mar-18 14:00:40
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Re: Faceplate change?


[re: RobertoS] [link to this post]
 
I'll be going there on Monday to check things, prior to activation on Tuesday, but I know he only has one phone, which is there in the hallway and connected via a micro-filter. The router is then connected via a second micro-filter in the lounge over an extended distance.

I asked him to send me an image of the faceplate and I've outlined the wire that leads from under the faceplate to the lounge. This was fitted by an electrician apparently.

His line test speeds are excellent and I believe the nearest box is about 20 meters from his house. I fished out the screenshot from when we placed the order and it suggested anywhere between 75.82 - 76mpbs. I haven't checked his Sky connection for a while, however I think he was getting around 13mbps.


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Standard User Zarjaz
(eat-sleep-adslguide) Sat 31-Mar-18 14:32:08
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Re: Faceplate change?


[re: charlestown] [link to this post]
 
I’d say, yes, fit a face plate filter (like you have at yours) on your fathers NTE ....

The current set up, as described will not prove reliable for VDSL, and you want it to ‘just work’ don’t you.

Standard User RobertoS
(elder) Sat 31-Mar-18 15:18:39
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Re: Faceplate change?


[re: Zarjaz] [link to this post]
 
I just wrote a long reply to the OP, Zarjaz, agreeing with you and also making other points and suggestions.

Just as I was about to post however I realised that the second biggest question is the quality/spec of that cable from the hall to the lounge. The third biggest being the "extended distance" in the lounge, which may be a simple phone extension cable.

I'm worried about the possibility of star wiring as well, and will make a short reply to the OP on that.

My broadband basic info/help site - www.robertos.me.uk. Domains, site and mail hosting - Tsohost.
Connection - AAISP Home::1 80/20. 200GB. Sync 71357/13895Kbps @ 600m. BQMs - IPv4 & IPv6
Standard User RobertoS
(elder) Sat 31-Mar-18 15:37:11
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Re: Faceplate change?


[re: charlestown] [link to this post]
 
See my reply to Zarjaz about that cable between the two rooms. Two extracts from my longer version:-
That cable to the lounge may be ordinary electrical wire or simple telephone wire. Neither is to be recommended. They will work but could be adding noise even now. VDSL2 (FTTC) is much more sensitive to that than ADSLx.
When you say "over an extended distance" in the lounge, do you mean there is a further length of extension cable in there? That is not good. Particularly if it is telephone wire.
The most important question isn't there however. It is as I asked you previously.

Please can you check on Monday if there are any other sockets anywhere in the house. And!

That pictured socket may or may not actually be the master, in my opinion. Please carefully remove that faceplate, which may have wires attached, and see what those attached wires are if any. (Colours and terminal numbers for each).

Importantly, take a look at this page. (There used to be a far better one but this will do for now). Scroll down to "Making the connections", where there are some pictures. The right hand two are an LJ2/1A. The cylindrical capacitor at the top is what tells the layman like us that it is a master socket, not an extension.

Your Dad's may or may not have the same layout, but if it is a master there will be such a capacitor somewhere there. If there isn't, it is an extension.

Don't worry too much, as Vodafone said, it will work. But I don't like the look of things for the stability, and you don't have a socket in that picture which will take any suitable faceplate.

My broadband basic info/help site - www.robertos.me.uk. Domains, site and mail hosting - Tsohost.
Connection - AAISP Home::1 80/20. 200GB. Sync 71357/13895Kbps @ 600m. BQMs - IPv4 & IPv6
Standard User RobertoS
(elder) Sat 31-Mar-18 15:38:30
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Re: Faceplate change?


[re: Zarjaz] [link to this post]
 
I just realised Zarjaz, as just posted to the OP, that pictured socket is not an NTE5A.

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Connection - AAISP Home::1 80/20. 200GB. Sync 71357/13895Kbps @ 600m. BQMs - IPv4 & IPv6
Standard User RobertoS
(elder) Sat 31-Mar-18 15:40:24
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Re: Faceplate change?


[re: charlestown] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by charlestown:
I asked him to send me an image of the faceplate
Is that the hall socket, or the lounge socket? (Wallpaper a clue?)

My broadband basic info/help site - www.robertos.me.uk. Domains, site and mail hosting - Tsohost.
Connection - AAISP Home::1 80/20. 200GB. Sync 71357/13895Kbps @ 600m. BQMs - IPv4 & IPv6
Standard User 4M2
(knowledge is power) Sat 31-Mar-18 17:20:31
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Re: Faceplate change?


[re: charlestown] [link to this post]
 
If the VDSL activation is very soon and you don't have chance to fit a filtered faceplate etc. then check that the bell wire is disconnected at the extension terminals (master NTE5 and phone extension socket) and that any other extensions, if any, are disconnected from the master NTE5.

Good luck.
Standard User charlestown
(learned) Sat 31-Mar-18 17:31:57
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Re: Faceplate change?


[re: Zarjaz] [link to this post]
 
Very much so. We have a Mk4 OpenReach faceplate here that works well and I've heard there are some called Solwise that are OK. I just went into B&Q and found a strange looking thing that would split the phone from the ADSL, under the Tristar brand but it looked very cheaply made and didn't mention anything about BT compatibility, so I decided to pass on that one. I'm surprised how difficulty it is to find in shops.
Standard User charlestown
(learned) Sat 31-Mar-18 17:43:56
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Re: Faceplate change?


[re: RobertoS] [link to this post]
 
Just back from searching without luck for a suitable faceplate. That image shows the faceplate in the hallway and there has only ever been one phone in the house, which has always been there. My father is 76 now and clueless about these things, but would have just called an electrician to do this and left him to it. The house is around 80 years old, so I'm working under the assumption that nothing is really ideal with the wiring, but I'm slightly surprised that Vodafone are so blasé about it.

That wire from underneath the faceplate traces all round the hallway and then continues around the edge of the lounge to a point where it goes into the wall near the bay window and then pops out the wall behind the TV, before connecting to the router via a micro-filter, so it's a very odd setup. I think it was only ever done this way because the old Sky boxes were not wifi enabled presumably and required an ethernet connection.

EDIT: I've just recalled that he paid BT about £3 a month for around 30+ years to rent a stupid bell in the hallway that was wired up there somewhere as well. I'm pretty sure it's gone now, but there may be some wiring still there.

Edited by charlestown (Sat 31-Mar-18 17:47:54)

Standard User 4M2
(knowledge is power) Sat 31-Mar-18 18:13:05
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Re: Faceplate change?


[re: charlestown] [link to this post]
 
Sky may have used cw1308 twisted pair cable when creating the extension (?) so that may be in your favour, in the short term, if you can not make up a "data extension" using a filtered faceplate etc. immediately. smile
Standard User charlestown
(learned) Sat 31-Mar-18 18:23:19
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Re: Faceplate change?


[re: 4M2] [link to this post]
 
I think he would prefer to keep the router in the lounge for cosmetic reasons, simply to avoid having it on the cabinet in the hallway, but I know he'd change his mind immediately if the internet was suddenly unusable.

I'm pretty sure that faceplate and the wiring was just put there by a local electrician. The idea is to go there on Monday and set up the new router for him, then go back on Tuesday when it all goes live to see how it's working. Presumably I'll have to keep the micro-filters in place temporarily if we don't have the new faceplate there before it goes live. I think the Vodafone router comes with a couple of their own.
Standard User RobertoS
(elder) Sat 31-Mar-18 18:27:35
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Re: Faceplate change?


[re: 4M2] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by 4M2:
Sky may have used cw1308 twisted pair cable when creating the extension (?) so that may be in your favour, in the short term, if you can not make up a "data extension" using a filtered faceplate etc. immediately. smile
What socket is he going to fit a filtered faceplate to frown ? Certainly not the one in the hall.

Even if he could, it would make zilch difference.

My broadband basic info/help site - www.robertos.me.uk. Domains, site and mail hosting - Tsohost.
Connection - AAISP Home::1 80/20. 200GB. Sync 71357/13895Kbps @ 600m. BQMs - IPv4 & IPv6
Standard User charlestown
(learned) Sat 31-Mar-18 18:49:58
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Re: Faceplate change?


[re: RobertoS] [link to this post]
 
If I find him a Mk4 OpenReach faceplate like mine shown in this image, presumably I could unscrew both the faceplate and the existing holder, then rewire it or is this something better left to Open Reach? I'm guessing Vodafone would only OK an engineer visit if speeds were really dreadful.

Edited by charlestown (Sat 31-Mar-18 18:51:14)

Standard User RobertoS
(elder) Sat 31-Mar-18 19:09:34
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Re: Faceplate change?


[re: charlestown] [link to this post]
 
Have a look inside the socket in the lounge as well as the one in the hall. Are you sure the one in the lounge was only fitted after the one in the hall?

I would like to know where the phone line reaches the house and how it gets from there to the master. (Which I'm suggesting may not be in the hall).

You've got little chance of altering anything significantly before the FTTC goes live, bar one important thing. You can gently remove the ring wire at the master when you find it and curl it out of the way. Don't cut it. The phone and broadband wires are on terminals 2 and 5. The bell wire is on terminal 3. The important end of it to remove is at the master. Far less important at non-masters but some people like to do those as well.

Remember, it is going to work just like now. Just probably degraded, and a possibility of instability. You are right to want to clean it up, but don't panic smile. Given the high estimates I doubt if the speed will be below 40Mbps connection anyway, but instability could clobber it after a few days.

An explanation of the bell wire, with a picture showing the inside of the NTE5A and faceplate. As you can see, the faceplate is only part of the front of the socket, but your picture shows a non-split front. There is no filtered faceplate to fit your photo'ed socket. The speed difference quoted there is for ADSL/ADSL2+. For FTTC it is far greater.

My broadband basic info/help site - www.robertos.me.uk. Domains, site and mail hosting - Tsohost.
Connection - AAISP Home::1 80/20. 200GB. Sync 71357/13895Kbps @ 600m. BQMs - IPv4 & IPv6
Standard User 4M2
(knowledge is power) Sat 31-Mar-18 19:14:17
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Re: Faceplate change?


[re: charlestown] [link to this post]
 
Problem is the hallway socket and what happens within and before that even if the router was connected there.

However good quality supplied dangly filters might be OK if the extension cable is cw1308, the extension bell wire is not connected and there are no other extensions in the property. This set up is perhaps the best you can hope for in the short term if the router is required to be located in the lounge.

In the longer term the house wiring needs to be examined and preferably a "data extension" using a master NTE5 fitted with a filtered faceplate leading to a dedicated rj11 socket in the lounge. (Or even better a NTE5 located in the lounge.) This I'm sure you had in mind when considering getting a filtered faceplate and using the current extension running to the lounge.

Good luck.
Standard User charlestown
(learned) Sat 31-Mar-18 19:14:40
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Re: Faceplate change?


[re: RobertoS] [link to this post]
 
There is no socket as such in the lounge. It's just a wire leading from the bottom of the faceplate in the hallway that is tacked around the edge of the skirting board and goes into the lounge. It eventually plugs into a micro-filter and from there to the router.
Standard User RobertoS
(elder) Sat 31-Mar-18 19:18:00
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Re: Faceplate change?


[re: charlestown] [link to this post]
 
Your socket is the latest NTE5C. A completely different design of master socket even from the split faceplate NTE5A most of us have and you probably had previously.

You can have one of those fitted at your Dad's, but unless you were lucky it would cost well over £100. The whole socket would have to be replaced, not just the faceplate.

As I've also said, I'm not convinced the one in the hall is a master, but looking inside it will solve that.

Is a phone needed in the hall?

I just have too many doubts about that wiring to make any safe suggestions other than the bell wire one until you are able to look around the house on Monday and get some answers smile. The insurance policy is that it is going to work even if you do nothing.

Is your Dad's a long way away?

My broadband basic info/help site - www.robertos.me.uk. Domains, site and mail hosting - Tsohost.
Connection - AAISP Home::1 80/20. 200GB. Sync 71357/13895Kbps @ 600m. BQMs - IPv4 & IPv6
Standard User charlestown
(learned) Sat 31-Mar-18 19:19:53
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Re: Faceplate change?


[re: 4M2] [link to this post]
 
The hallway sits in the middle between the lounge and the dining room where he has the computer, so it should be pretty easy to obtain a stable wifi connection and to me it would make sense eliminating the wiring going into the lounge.
Standard User 4M2
(knowledge is power) Sat 31-Mar-18 19:29:31
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Re: Faceplate change?


[re: RobertoS] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by RobertoS:
In reply to a post by 4M2:
Sky may have used cw1308 twisted pair cable when creating the extension (?) so that may be in your favour, in the short term, if you can not make up a "data extension" using a filtered faceplate etc. immediately. smile
What socket is he going to fit a filtered faceplate to frown ? Certainly not the one in the hall.

Even if he could, it would make zilch difference.


Yes you are correct, indeed it does now appear that hall socket is not a NTE5.
Standard User charlestown
(regular) Sat 31-Mar-18 19:35:28
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Re: Faceplate change?


[re: RobertoS] [link to this post]
 
My socket was fitted last year after I was having some problems with CloudScape and they sent out an Open Reach engineer to check the wiring. Prior to that I had a split faceplate and the engineer said the new mk4 was much better with less interference. It eventually turned out the problem was with CloudScape and nothing was wrong with the wiring or wifi at my house. The speeds or reliability with CloudScape were never great and improved instantly after I left last month.

I don't think the phone specifically has to be in the hallway, but they've had it there for 40 years and it probably makes sense in that it will be easier to hear around the house from that position. My father did say something about the master socket possibly being in the garage, but that didn't seem to make much sense. I would say it's been reasonably reliable with Sky, though I always thought it should be a bit faster on that connection.

It's a 12 mile trip to my father's house so I can be there in under half an hour. The line connection from the cabinet is excellent, so it's just a question of sorting out the internal wiring to make sure everything remains stable.
Standard User RobertoS
(elder) Sat 31-Mar-18 19:37:46
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Re: Faceplate change?


[re: charlestown] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by charlestown:
The hallway sits in the middle between the lounge and the dining room where he has the computer, so it should be pretty easy to obtain a stable wifi connection and to me it would make sense eliminating the wiring going into the lounge.
smile
LOL

In conjunction with your reply to me that there isn't even a proper socket in the lounge, everything probably becomes much simpler. I'm assuming the computer already connects wirelessly?

*** Beware - read my reply where you suggest the master may be in the garage. ***
You simply open up that hall socket, and if it does have that capacitor all is well. You simply disconnect the wire that goes to the lounge and connect the router using the dangly filter in the hall. With one caveat, it obviously needs a mains supply.

I don't know much about freesat though. You imply in your opening post that it needs an internet connection as well as its satellite dish, and that it can have a wireless connection to your router.

If so, then go for that setup! Forget the faceplate worries, and forget the instability worries. There is nothing to worry about unless Dad wants to get rid of the dangly filter in the hall.

Except! Where is/are the phones? Are they old-style needing a phone socket, or a modern DECT system just needing a socket for the base station?

My broadband basic info/help site - www.robertos.me.uk. Domains, site and mail hosting - Tsohost.
Connection - AAISP Home::1 80/20. 200GB. Sync 71097/14070Kbps @ 600m. BQMs - IPv4 & IPv6

Edited by RobertoS (Sat 31-Mar-18 19:45:41)

Standard User 4M2
(knowledge is power) Sat 31-Mar-18 19:42:35
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Re: Faceplate change?


[re: charlestown] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by charlestown:
There is no socket as such in the lounge. It's just a wire leading from the bottom of the faceplate in the hallway that is tacked around the edge of the skirting board and goes into the lounge. It eventually plugs into a micro-filter and from there to the router.


So just a normal Sky box phone line extension - I think the bell wire is generally connected up in those?
Standard User RobertoS
(elder) Sat 31-Mar-18 19:42:46
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Re: Faceplate change?


[re: charlestown] [link to this post]
 
Quite a lot of installations have the master socket in the garage. In which case the whole question starts from scratch frown.

Including how does the line get from the garage to the hall. Or would that be straight through a common wall? Don't remove the skirting board wire from the hall socket until we are dead sure it doesn't have a spur into the garage "master".

My broadband basic info/help site - www.robertos.me.uk. Domains, site and mail hosting - Tsohost.
Connection - AAISP Home::1 80/20. 200GB. Sync 71097/14070Kbps @ 600m. BQMs - IPv4 & IPv6
Standard User RobertoS
(elder) Sat 31-Mar-18 19:44:05
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Re: Faceplate change?


[re: 4M2] [link to this post]
 
The OP thinks it was wired by an electrician. Not by Sky. Goodness knows what is in there.

My broadband basic info/help site - www.robertos.me.uk. Domains, site and mail hosting - Tsohost.
Connection - AAISP Home::1 80/20. 200GB. Sync 71097/14070Kbps @ 600m. BQMs - IPv4 & IPv6
Standard User charlestown
(regular) Sat 31-Mar-18 19:46:59
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Re: Faceplate change?


[re: RobertoS] [link to this post]
 
The Freesat box is brand new and has built in wifi, which I can set up for him and the computer also operates via wifi. The whole idea was to stop him handing over £90 a month to Sky for the dubious privilege of slow broadband and watching Emmerdale on ITV...

He is using the Freesat box as well to access Netflix and at present it has an ethernet cable attaching to the router, but a 38mbps connection should be more than adequate to stream HD content over wifi through Netflix.

The phone is a modern DECT setup with a single handset. The base unit is on a cabinet in front of that faceplate and connected via that micro-filter shown in that first image, though I actually wondered if that filter would be needed.

Edited by charlestown (Sat 31-Mar-18 19:47:51)

Standard User 4M2
(knowledge is power) Sat 31-Mar-18 20:00:52
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Re: Faceplate change?


[re: RobertoS] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by RobertoS:
The OP thinks it was wired by an electrician. Not by Sky. Goodness knows what is in there.


Sure smile Looks like we might be moving towards a totally wireless set up. That Sky box extension could be carefully removed and in the short term phone and router connected to the hall socket using a dangly filter.
Standard User charlestown
(regular) Sat 31-Mar-18 20:03:13
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Re: Faceplate change?


[re: RobertoS] [link to this post]
 
I'll have to have a good look around on Monday and try to see what is going on. I lived in this house as a child, but all of this was long before the internet even existed. There has only ever been one phone that I know of and it was always in the hallway.

Like many older houses they were well built, but not always setup for modern fittings. If I went into the loft now I doubt I'd find a convenient point with antenna sockets by the loft hatch or cross beams at standard distances for loft boards. My house is 10 years old and anything I pick off a shelf at B&Q just seems to fit.
Standard User charlestown
(regular) Sat 31-Mar-18 20:07:56
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Re: Faceplate change?


[re: 4M2] [link to this post]
 
As long as the connection is stable and the wifi doesn't drop that would be the easiest solution by far. I know he always gets a full strength signal in the dining room with the Sky router in the lounge, so I don't anticipate any great problems there. I have the same Vodafone router at my house and it works fine over a longer distance on different floors, so that part should be fine.
Standard User RobertoS
(elder) Sat 31-Mar-18 20:09:04
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Re: Faceplate change?


[re: charlestown] [link to this post]
 
Sounds good but check out the garage re the possible master socket. If it is there, as long as there is a short cable from that to the insides of the hall socket all is well with my suggestion re disconnecting the hall to lounge cable. (I've just put a warning re that in the post about that disconnection).

Also if that is the location of the master, it doesn't matter how old or new it is, still disconnect the bell wire on T3. As you will be opening both sockets you may as well do it at both ends.

To get rid of the dangly filter in the hall, if it is not a master and the master is in the garage, you need an XTF68 or XTF 85, probably the 85, to replace the hall socket. The difference between them is the millimetre dimensions of the box. You will also need a Krone/IDC punchdown tool to connect the wires to the internals. Cheapo ones at similar prices from Maplin, B & Q etc.

You can legally do that. But that can be done when convenient.

Good luck on Monday smile.

My broadband basic info/help site - www.robertos.me.uk. Domains, site and mail hosting - Tsohost.
Connection - AAISP Home::1 80/20. 200GB. Sync 71097/14070Kbps @ 600m. BQMs - IPv4 & IPv6
Standard User charlestown
(regular) Sat 31-Mar-18 20:15:18
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Re: Faceplate change?


[re: RobertoS] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by RobertoS:
Good luck on Monday smile.


I think it's Tuesday when we'll need the real luck. That's activation day...
Standard User 4M2
(knowledge is power) Sat 31-Mar-18 20:20:08
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Re: Faceplate change?


[re: charlestown] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by charlestown:
As long as the connection is stable and the wifi doesn't drop that would be the easiest solution by far. I know he always gets a full strength signal in the dining room with the Sky router in the lounge, so I don't anticipate any great problems there. I have the same Vodafone router at my house and it works fine over a longer distance on different floors, so that part should be fine.


That sounds fine, see how it goes, if there are problems with speeds and stability then checking the property wiring back to a NTE5 or junction box, fitting or moving a NTE5 to the hall or other convenient location would probably be the best solution.
Standard User 4M2
(knowledge is power) Sat 31-Mar-18 20:32:49
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Re: Faceplate change?


[re: RobertoS] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by RobertoS:
To get rid of the dangly filter in the hall, if it is not a master and the master is in the garage, you need an XTF68 or XTF 85, probably the 85, to replace the hall socket.


OP possibly saw a cheapo version of one of those today and wisely rejected it smile
Standard User RobertoS
(elder) Sat 31-Mar-18 21:54:55
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Re: Faceplate change?


[re: 4M2] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by 4M2:
In reply to a post by RobertoS:
To get rid of the dangly filter in the hall, if it is not a master and the master is in the garage, you need an XTF68 or XTF 85, probably the 85, to replace the hall socket.


OP possibly saw a cheapo version of one of those today and wisely rejected it smile
Not that I can see, he didn't.

My broadband basic info/help site - www.robertos.me.uk. Domains, site and mail hosting - Tsohost.
Connection - AAISP Home::1 80/20. 200GB. Sync 71097/14070Kbps @ 600m. BQMs - IPv4 & IPv6
Standard User 4M2
(knowledge is power) Sat 31-Mar-18 23:03:19
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Re: Faceplate change?


[re: RobertoS] [link to this post]
 
Maybe this https://www.diy.com/departments/tristar-adsl-socket/... ?
Standard User RobertoS
(elder) Sat 31-Mar-18 23:47:33
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Re: Faceplate change?


[re: 4M2] [link to this post]
 
I agree that looks like a totally cheap and possibly rubbish product. ADSL Nation (now owned by Tandy) filtered sockets have been around for years and very few complaints.

My broadband basic info/help site - www.robertos.me.uk. Domains, site and mail hosting - Tsohost.
Connection - AAISP Home::1 80/20. 200GB. Sync 71097/14070Kbps @ 600m. BQMs - IPv4 & IPv6
Standard User 4M2
(knowledge is power) Sun 01-Apr-18 00:26:59
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Re: Faceplate change?


[re: RobertoS] [link to this post]
 
Imagine trying to fit that (or similar) in a situation where there isn't a NTE5 (demarcation point) but just a junction box linking the drop wire to the home wiring. I think you will agree that if the OP were to disturb the wires on the back of the hall phone socket then he really must establish that there is a NTE5 elsewhere.
Standard User RobertoS
(elder) Sun 01-Apr-18 00:50:25
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Re: Faceplate change?


[re: 4M2] [link to this post]
 
I have covered all that in my posts to the OP. Specifically it is perfectly possible there is no NTE5.

It is also extremely unlikely that there is no master socket. The NTE5A was not the first. Its immediate predecessor was the LJ2/1A I referred to earlier.

The removal of the bell/ring wire is applicable to either of those.

My broadband basic info/help site - www.robertos.me.uk. Domains, site and mail hosting - Tsohost.
Connection - AAISP Home::1 80/20. 200GB. Sync 71097/14070Kbps @ 600m. BQMs - IPv4 & IPv6
Standard User caffn8me
(eat-sleep-adslguide) Sun 01-Apr-18 15:43:26
Print Post

Re: Faceplate change?


[re: charlestown] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by charlestown:
If I find him a Mk4 OpenReach faceplate like mine shown in this image, presumably I could unscrew both the faceplate and the existing holder, then rewire it or is this something better left to Open Reach? I'm guessing Vodafone would only OK an engineer visit if speeds were really dreadful.
In reply to a post by RobertoS:
I have covered all that in my posts to the OP. Specifically it is perfectly possible there is no NTE5.

It is also extremely unlikely that there is no master socket. The NTE5A was not the first. Its immediate predecessor was the LJ2/1A I referred to earlier.
What's in the picture is the MK Logic Plus K422 telephone master socket. It's approved to be used as a master socket on BT connections and is perfectly acceptable as such, but it's not been designed with broadband services in mind, whereas NTE5 series master sockets have.

If the master socket were to be replaced, it would look neater if the surface mounted back box was replaced too as it has rounded corners and would look a bit odd with the square cornered master socket on the front.

If I had to have a new master socket I'd ask for the previous model, the NTE5A, as the current NTE5C model seems to me likely to be less reliable due to its construction. If, purely hypothetically, I'd actually played with the new NTE5C, I'd have been horrified by its shortcomings.

Sarah

--
If I can't drink my bowl of coffee three times daily, then in my torment, I will shrivel up like a piece of roast goat

Spiders on coffee - Badass spiders on drugs
Standard User RobertoS
(elder) Sun 01-Apr-18 21:16:27
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Re: Faceplate change?


[re: caffn8me] [link to this post]
 
Thanks for that info re what it is. It should help the OP.

However it seems possible there is master of some description in the garage. In which case it should still be safe to replace the hall one with a filtered extension as I suggested for the longer term.

(Will the test socket be in the right place anyway for an NTE5A?)

My broadband basic info/help site - www.robertos.me.uk. Domains, site and mail hosting - Tsohost.
Connection - AAISP Home::1 80/20. 200GB. Sync 71097/14070Kbps @ 600m. BQMs - IPv4 & IPv6
Standard User charlestown
(regular) Mon 02-Apr-18 16:16:21
Print Post

Re: Faceplate change?


[re: RobertoS] [link to this post]
 
I've just been over there to take a look at it all and the cabling was rather reminiscent of the machine Alan Turing built to crack the enigma code. There is a second phone (not DECT) upstairs in the main bedroom, though nothing I could see in the garage.

At this point I decided to play chicken and not remove any faceplates, working on the assumption that it should still work and it might be better to try it as it is, before pulling everything to bits. I had a plan to leave the Sky router plugged in the lounge, so he could keep using the internet this evening with the Vodafone router ready to kick in as soon as it switched over.

In the event, we lost the internet entirely from the moment I attached the Vodafone router via the micro-filter in the hallway and Sky clearly didn't like that, even if the Sky router was still plugged in and switched on. We ended up removing the Sky router entirely and I changed the micro-filters to those supplied by Vodafone, so I guess we'll have to wait and see now. At the moment he has the phone, but no internet as expected.

All the settings are configured in the Vodafone router, plus I've setup wifi on the TV, freesat and computer with a strong signal. Given that he's switching from ADSL to fibre I'm guessing somebody will need to visit the box opposite his house, rather than just flicking a switch at the exchange, so it could be later in the day before it goes live. Vodafone sent through a text message confirming everything was on track for tomorrow and I'll go there again at some point for sure to check everything.
Standard User RobertoS
(elder) Mon 02-Apr-18 17:14:12
Print Post

Re: Faceplate change?


[re: charlestown] [link to this post]
 
It'll work.

Everything would stop working if you had two powered-up routers connected. If the Sky didn't come back with turning off the Vodafone one, that is surprising. But I gather your prime purpose was to have it all set up ready for Vodafone.

I hope the upstairs phone is on a filter! A Sky one would be fine.

Longer term I still advise checking to find the master and remove the bell wire on T3 at it.

There is a possibility that there is a junction box on the incoming line before the master, feeding both the known sockets separately, rather than the master and the master feeding the extension. That could be really bad news. It would be what is called a "bridge tap". Again, the FTTC will still work, but there could be a lot of errors that might cause DLM to really clobber the connection speed.

Does your Dad normally turn his router off at bedtime? Normal practice is to leave it on, but again it's not a disaster if he does.

My broadband basic info/help site - www.robertos.me.uk. Domains, site and mail hosting - Tsohost.
Connection - AAISP Home::1 80/20. 200GB. Sync 71097/14070Kbps @ 600m. BQMs - IPv4 & IPv6
Standard User charlestown
(regular) Mon 02-Apr-18 17:26:14
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Re: Faceplate change?


[re: RobertoS] [link to this post]
 
I did try switching off the Vodafone router, but Sky didn't return immediately and since the main point was to set up everything for Vodafone I wasn't too concerned. One oddity is that the Vodafone router was picking up the data rate of 18mbps for the current connection, so presumably making some sort of contact there, even though it won't work.

Yes the upstairs phone is on a filter, though I swapped out the old one for a new one from Vodafone. I've always told him to keep the router running 24/7 so he leaves it on full-time. The cable in the lounge has been left with no micro-filter plugged in, since there is no connecting device at this point and I assumed (hoped) that is OK, but if needs be I'll plug a micro-filter in there as well.

Longterm I'll have a better look at it all, but right now I just want get him online and hopefully with decent speeds. The nearest BT box is literally opposite his house on the other side of the road, so from that point of view he's perfectly placed and that should help with a less than perfect setup inside the house.
Standard User 4M2
(knowledge is power) Mon 02-Apr-18 18:17:41
Print Post

Re: Faceplate change?


[re: charlestown] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by charlestown:
The cable in the lounge has been left with no micro-filter plugged in, since there is no connecting device at this point and I assumed (hoped) that is OK, but if needs be I'll plug a micro-filter in there as well.


Just be sure that no devices are directly connected to that extension - generally a maximum of four micro filters per line is recommended.

Edited by 4M2 (Mon 02-Apr-18 19:45:24)

Standard User charlestown
(regular) Mon 02-Apr-18 20:02:19
Print Post

Re: Faceplate change?


[re: 4M2] [link to this post]
 
There is definitely nothing connected to that extension at the moment, but I'll add a micro-filter tomorrow just in case we need it at some stage.

At my own house I have the modern mk 4 Open Reach faceplate fitted last year and I've never added micro-filters to the other faceplates with connected phones, but I gather that is acceptable, unless I've completely misunderstood how this should be done. My speeds are good and the phones work fine.
Standard User 4M2
(knowledge is power) Mon 02-Apr-18 21:32:16
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Re: Faceplate change?


[re: charlestown] [link to this post]
 
Were there previously 3 micro filters in use before you made the lounge extension redundant?

In your house the voice extensions are filtered from the Mk4 filtered faceplate, they don't carry the broadband signal only the voice frequencies. If you didn't have a Mk4 filtered faceplate, i.e. extensions terminated at an unfiltered standard NTE5 faceplate, then you would have to use micro filters at each extension socket because the extensions are carrying both the broadband frequencies and the voice frequencies. For devices that only use the voice frequencies the broadband frequencies must be filtered off.
Standard User charlestown
(regular) Tue 03-Apr-18 00:04:58
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Re: Faceplate change?


[re: 4M2] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by 4M2:
Were there previously 3 micro filters in use before you made the lounge extension redundant?


Yes, but that third was connected to the router in the lounge that is no longer there. The other two are each connected to a phone.
Standard User RobertoS
(elder) Tue 03-Apr-18 00:13:13
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Re: Faceplate change?


[re: charlestown] [link to this post]
 
You now have an easy birthday/Christmas present option. Buy him a phone for the lounge!

OK, you had that before, but the place might have looked cluttered with the router there as well.

wink

My broadband basic info/help site - www.robertos.me.uk. Domains, site and mail hosting - Tsohost.
Connection - AAISP Home::1 80/20. 200GB. Sync 71097/14070Kbps @ 600m. BQMs - IPv4 & IPv6
Standard User 4M2
(knowledge is power) Tue 03-Apr-18 03:18:40
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Re: Faceplate change?


[re: charlestown] [link to this post]
 
Regarding micro filters you might find this interesting http://www.kitz.co.uk/adsl/splitters.htm
Standard User charlestown
(regular) Tue 03-Apr-18 08:07:03
Print Post

Re: Faceplate change?


[re: RobertoS] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by RobertoS:
You now have an easy birthday/Christmas present option. Buy him a phone for the lounge!

OK, you had that before, but the place might have looked cluttered with the router there as well.

wink


He seemed happy enough with the router in the lounge, but it was actually a necessity, because the Sky older boxes needed an ethernet connection to download catchup content. I imagine they will operate with wifi now. I've cleared away various items now and it looks much less cluttered.
Standard User RobertoS
(elder) Tue 03-Apr-18 10:06:59
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Re: Faceplate change?


[re: charlestown] [link to this post]
 
LOL
In which case for the original Sky setup an Ethernet cable from the hall to the lounge instead of the one that was put in would have been fine. 100 metre maximum length. But that’s history smile.

My broadband basic info/help site - www.robertos.me.uk. Domains, site and mail hosting - Tsohost.
Connection - AAISP Home::1 80/20. 200GB. Sync 71097/14070Kbps @ 600m. BQMs - IPv4 & IPv6
Standard User charlestown
(regular) Tue 03-Apr-18 10:12:23
Print Post

Re: Faceplate change?


[re: RobertoS] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by RobertoS:
LOL
In which case for the original Sky setup an Ethernet cable from the hall to the lounge instead of the one that was put in would have been fine. 100 metre maximum length. But that’s history smile.


I have an Ethernet cable that stretches across the perimeter of our lounge, going around the door frame and it's not the tidiest looking solution, but certainly effective. At the moment he has neither phone nor broadband, so either it's in progress or Vodafone have made a right mess up.
Standard User charlestown
(regular) Wed 04-Apr-18 21:14:17
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Re: Faceplate change?


[re: charlestown] [link to this post]
 
As a quick followup to all of this, my father is now live with Vodafone. It should have gone live yesterday, but for whatever reason it didn't happen and the internet light was still fluctuating green, rather than solid.

This morning over the phone I had him switch off the router for about 30 seconds, then restart it and do the same with his computer. A few minutes later a browser window popped up, asking him to set his content filter settings and he was able to get started.

The data rate inside the router was pretty much maximum, but his noise levels on the line are quite high and double what I have, however it is working and no dropouts during the day that I know of. Wifi working well across the different rooms.

Tomorrow I'll drive over to check it all and see it for myself. Many thanks for all your help here.

Edited by charlestown (Wed 04-Apr-18 21:17:00)

Standard User 4M2
(knowledge is power) Wed 04-Apr-18 22:20:27
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Re: Faceplate change?


[re: charlestown] [link to this post]
 
Hopefully it will be OK in terms of stability and speed and in the longer term you may not have to consider the expense of fitting a master NTE5, etc. etc. One problem you may face though is that there is apparently no easy means of isolating the house wiring together with access to a test socket

Good luck.

Edited by 4M2 (Wed 04-Apr-18 22:21:24)

Standard User charlestown
(regular) Wed 04-Apr-18 22:34:18
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Re: Faceplate change?


[re: 4M2] [link to this post]
 
He's not obsessed by speed, so if it's a couple mbps less than perfect I'm sure he won't mind. The key point is whether it remains stable with that faceplate and obviously how Vodafone performs in general. I'll have a better idea of the situation tomorrow when I visit again.

He did mention that web pages were opening quicker now and we did a screen share via Apple's built in sharing facility that was notably better. There was no lag at all, whereas it could be really frustrating before now when he had Sky ADSL. If push comes to shove and we end up calling in Open Reach it will still be a big saving on what he was paying with Sky between the broadband and TV.
Standard User Zarjaz
(eat-sleep-adslguide) Thu 05-Apr-18 13:28:09
Print Post

Re: Faceplate change?


[re: charlestown] [link to this post]
 
The data rate inside the router was pretty much maximum, but his noise levels on the line are quite high and double what I have,

I seem top recall you saying his line was very short to the cabinet, if so the SNR may be high as he has full sync already and so there's 'nothing else' to be done with the spare SNR .... as seen with my line .......

Data rate:
20.00 Mbps / 80.00 Mbps
Maximum data rate:
31708 / 105621
Noise margin:
15.2 dB / 12.3 dB
Line attenuation:
9.1 dB

Standard User charlestown
(regular) Thu 05-Apr-18 15:35:48
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Re: Faceplate change?


[re: Zarjaz] [link to this post]
 
The cabinet is literally opposite his house on the corner of the street, so it couldn't really get much closer. I checked his speeds earlier and he's achieving pretty much maximum speeds over wifi, so there probably wouldn't be much gain from fitting a new faceplate, unless we find the line becomes unstable.

We managed to add my name to his account and for some strange reason this gave him a discount on his calls plus free caller ID. As a result he'll be paying just £27 a month for 38mbps broadband with unlimited anytime calls to mobile or landline including line rental. That's a pretty good deal by any measure.

Just to make my life easier he's order an Amazon TV stick, so I'll be back there again tomorrow...
Standard User RobertoS
(elder) Thu 05-Apr-18 17:16:12
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Re: Faceplate change?


[re: charlestown] [link to this post]
 
All sounds great smile. As Zarjaz says, there's every reason his noise margin will be high at the moment, given the closeness of the cabinet and the fact he is only on a 40/10 Openreach connection. (The 38Mbps is just a ruling by Ofcom that at least 10% of the ISP's customers have to get the advertised connection speed for the product).

Tonight is when DLM will make any major adjustment if it thinks it necessary. The second night after initial connection as long as it has been connected for at least 15 minutes the first day. Though if there were really serious problems it can jump in earlier.

My broadband basic info/help site - www.robertos.me.uk. Domains, site and mail hosting - Tsohost.
Connection - AAISP Home::1 80/20. 200GB. Sync 71097/14070Kbps @ 600m. BQMs - IPv4 & IPv6
Standard User charlestown
(regular) Thu 05-Apr-18 22:29:09
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Re: Faceplate change?


[re: RobertoS] [link to this post]
 
I'll have to go back either tomorrow or over the weekend to sort out his Amazon stick for the TV, so I'll be sure to check the speeds again. I don't think there has been any downtime, so I'd be surprised if the speed suffers significantly. On the Vodafone forums I see several complaints about slowdowns during peak hours, but it's been pretty good for me and decidedly better than I experienced with CloudScape.
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