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Standard User MaxNRG
(regular) Thu 12-Jan-12 01:12:05
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FTTP *and* ADSL at the same time without double line rental?


[link to this post]
 
Is this possible?

Related to this, do people on FTTP still have to pay line rental for a copper line?

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Standard User RobertoS
(sensei) Thu 12-Jan-12 09:10:53
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Re: FTTP *and* ADSL at the same time without double line ren


[re: MaxNRG] [link to this post]
 
I expect it isn't possible, but ....

The thing I haven't checked is whether there is any "line rental" as such for an FTTP connection. The reason I'm not sure is ....

There are two completely different scenarios for Openreach FTTP. In one, the phone connection is still carried entirely over copper, and the FTTP feed is totally separate. You still have to have the copper line rental. (I wonder why?). I believe this is the most common current implementation in the UK.

In the other, the phone service is also provided over the fibre and no copper exists at all. There still needs to be phone provision and hence line rental, but this I imagine is a commercial stipulation just as it is now for copper/ADSLx. See also the preceding paragraph.

I can't think of a technical reason why ADSLx shouldn't be possible in the first case. In the second it is clearly impossible as by definition it runs over copper and there isn't any involved. So a separate copper line would be needed.

The subject of "naked DSL", where no "phone service" rental is required, has been flogged to death many times. As something needs to be paid for maintenance costs, and the contribution to supplier costs of call-making on any individual line is infinitesimal, I don't see it ever changing here, except as a pure marketing plot. The charge would merely re-appear somewhere else in the DSL provision.

My broadband basic info/help site - www.robertos.me.uk
My domains,website and mail hosting - Tsohost. Internet connection - IDNet Home Starter Fibre. Live BQM.

"Where talent is a dwarf, self-esteem is a giant." - Jean-Antoine Petit-Senn.
Administrator MrSaffron
(staff) Thu 12-Jan-12 09:16:12
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Re: FTTP *and* ADSL at the same time without double line ren


[re: RobertoS] [link to this post]
 
BT Retail being a phone company will be keen for people to have a voice service and make money from the calls, one reason on Infinity. Other retails of the Openreach product may have a different view point, but so little Openreach coverage hard to say about non-BT Retail position at this time.

Lifeline services is one issue...the battery backup was requirement reduction to 1 hour, makes installing a small backup battery for FTTP more feasible now. So things may change.

The only place where Openreach has FTTP with NO copper is Ebbsfleet in Kent. The other deployments are a mixed network.

Wanting ADSL at the same time will require retention of a copper pair, even if you have FTTP, but nothing stopping you having that copper pair on a very cheap £8 line rental package, which pretty much under cuts what extra price a Naked DSL service would be.

Andrew Ferguson, andrew@thinkbroadband.com
www.thinkbroadband.com - formerly known as ADSLguide.org.uk
The author of the above post is a thinkbroadband staff member. It may not constitute an official statement on behalf of thinkbroadband.


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Standard User MHC
(legend) Thu 12-Jan-12 09:29:44
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Re: FTTP *and* ADSL at the same time without double line ren


[re: RobertoS] [link to this post]
 
There will be an element of "line rental" in the FTTP charge. OR will have to recover their costs of install and maintenance of that. It may not be anywhere near as high as a copper pair but there will be some. Also, if the customer requires a voice service to be provided on the FTTP circuit with PSTN cpabilities then there might also be a small monthly fee for renting access to te exchange equipment.





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M H C


taurus excreta cerebrum vincit
Standard User kitcat
(regular) Thu 12-Jan-12 10:31:35
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Re: FTTP *and* ADSL at the same time without double line ren


[re: RobertoS] [link to this post]
 
Roberto

Looking at the Openreach pages, there is nothing to stop an ISP from having only an FTTP Data connection however the price is higher ( £189 rather than £119 wholesale cost,ie £70 more for the 40Mb service). (The cheap product is called transitional and can be withdrawn at 28 days notice so may go when the brownfield 135Kb service is launched).

HOWEVER many ISPs like to sell the services bundled to get the additional revenue, some of the smaller ones may offer just the FTTP BB service without a voice service over Cu and the copper service could then be ceased. However if the Cu service to the premises is ceased the higher price has to be paid.

On brown field sites there is no price for the 135Kbit GEA product at present so you have to have BB only on the FTTP, although I believe this is about to be launched now the battery backup issue is clarified.

The original poster should therefore be able to have Voice + DSL over Cu and BB over the FTTP from the same supplier at the cheaper cost.
Standard User RobertoS
(sensei) Thu 12-Jan-12 10:36:19
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Re: FTTP *and* ADSL at the same time without double line ren


[re: MHC] [link to this post]
 
Are you saying it is possible to have FTTP without a phone service? That's the implication of what you say.

If so, we approach the "yes" scenario to what the OP is enquiring about. Though in an FTTP only area, such as Ebbsfleet just mentioned by Andrew, a copper feed presumably would not be possible anyway.

Ummm, that's sounds strange. Surely the long-term plan can't be fibre for broadband plus phone, and copper for phone only? So how will the phone be provided economically if broadband isn't required?

What happens in Ebbsfleet for phone only?

My broadband basic info/help site - www.robertos.me.uk
My domains,website and mail hosting - Tsohost. Internet connection - IDNet Home Starter Fibre. Live BQM.

"Where talent is a dwarf, self-esteem is a giant." - Jean-Antoine Petit-Senn.
Standard User MHC
(legend) Thu 12-Jan-12 10:55:14
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Re: FTTP *and* ADSL at the same time without double line ren


[re: RobertoS] [link to this post]
 
Not exactly, it is possible to have it but would it be permitted? The customer may not get a real choice and the question "if he want voice ..." is already answered. The Product Teams within BT and others will decide on what is to be sold and rules covering voice circuits - taking into account the requirements for a minimum of 1 hour following a power failure. But whether or not voice is required there will be "line rental".

Take a company I have occasional dealing with. They lease two ISDN 30s - providing their staff with voice comms. At present they have several ADSL circuits to provide data but they do not use voice on those. They would have no requirement for a parallel copper pair. Once they get VDSL or FTTP then VOIP might become viable and ISDN removed but theirs is a complex issue.





~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


M H C


taurus excreta cerebrum vincit
Standard User RobertoS
(sensei) Thu 12-Jan-12 11:04:22
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Re: FTTP *and* ADSL at the same time without double line ren


[re: kitcat] [link to this post]
 
Thanks smile. You posted whilst I was drafting mine so didn't see it till now, as I dashed off somewhere after hitting the Continue button.

My broadband basic info/help site - www.robertos.me.uk
My domains,website and mail hosting - Tsohost. Internet connection - IDNet Home Starter Fibre. Live BQM.

"Where talent is a dwarf, self-esteem is a giant." - Jean-Antoine Petit-Senn.
Standard User kitcat
(regular) Thu 12-Jan-12 12:28:50
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Re: FTTP *and* ADSL at the same time without double line ren


[re: RobertoS] [link to this post]
 
Roberto

Yes it is possible to have FTTP without a phone service, however the cost of the GEA goes up so it may not make as much difference as expected.

Openreach charges
40Mb GEA without Cu phone line £189
40Mb GEA with Cu phone line £119

135Kb GEA for Voice £95 (only on Greenfield sites at present).

Therefore the poster should be able to get fibre and Cu with ADSL and Voice.
But not Fibre and ADSL without voice
But could get Fibre only at the higher price.


If a fibre only site, Phone is over the fibre using the 135Kb GEA as above. If in an area where FTTP and Cu are then phone only on the Cu as they will only provide Fibre to houses that take the BB.

If you move into a house where the previous occupant had FTTP then I presume you could takeover whatever is working on either fibre or Cu as the cash has been spent.
Standard User RobertoS
(sensei) Thu 12-Jan-12 18:11:24
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Re: FTTP *and* ADSL at the same time without double line ren


[re: kitcat] [link to this post]
 
Ta smile.

My broadband basic info/help site - www.robertos.me.uk
My domains,website and mail hosting - Tsohost. Internet connection - IDNet Home Starter Fibre. Live BQM.

"Where talent is a dwarf, self-esteem is a giant." - Jean-Antoine Petit-Senn.
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