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Standard User saboo1690
(newbie) Sun 29-Apr-12 20:10:51
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which fttc router.


[link to this post]
 
Hi all.....
I was just about to buy a draytek 2850n router for my vdsl2 connection and i seen it only does up to 50mbps. Im on a 80/20mbps connection now. so my question is what is the best router to go for now or is the draytek still ok.........smile

Cheers
saboo
Standard User truex360
(newbie) Sun 29-Apr-12 20:24:46
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Re: which fttc router.


[re: saboo1690] [link to this post]
 
how do you know it only does 50mb ?

Aquiss 80/20 FTTC (When BT Fix it_)
Standard User saboo1690
(learned) Sun 29-Apr-12 20:27:31
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Re: which fttc router.


[re: truex360] [link to this post]
 
Because they advertise it only up to 50MBPS.........smile


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Standard User truex360
(newbie) Sun 29-Apr-12 20:28:46
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Re: which fttc router.


[re: saboo1690] [link to this post]
 
have you tried a direct lan to your pc ?

Aquiss 80/20 FTTC (When BT Fix it_)
Standard User saboo1690
(learned) Sun 29-Apr-12 20:31:53
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Re: which fttc router.


[re: truex360] [link to this post]
 
I have a network running with Ethernet plugs so i need a router.......
Anonymous
(Unregistered)Sun 29-Apr-12 20:34:01
Print Post

Re: which fttc router.


[re: saboo1690] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by saboo1690:
Because they advertise it only up to 50MBPS.........smile


50Mb/s not MB/s!! there totaly differant things

from the tec specs...... Max. WAN Throughput in excess of 50Mb/s
Standard User saboo1690
(learned) Sun 29-Apr-12 20:38:04
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Re: which fttc router.


[re: Anonymous] [link to this post]
 
Have i got this wrong then.......lol
so will the draytek 2850n be good enough for a 80/20mbps connection.......smile
Anonymous
(Unregistered)Sun 29-Apr-12 20:50:34
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Re: which fttc router.


[re: saboo1690] [link to this post]
 
if i read it right there suggesting throput, to put that in contex i only get 560Kb/s on a 4meg adsl connection so personaly i think the router would wipe the floor with a 80meg connection.

mind you i dont pretend to know for sure, theres several very well informed people here so they should be able to tell you if im wrong (or right).
Standard User BatBoy
(legend) Sun 29-Apr-12 20:50:40
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Re: which fttc router.


[re: saboo1690] [link to this post]
 
The WAN throughput on 80/20 is around 100Mb/s, so you'll be losing half.


_____________________________________________________________________________________________ this is not usenet __________________
Administrator MrSaffron
(staff) Sun 29-Apr-12 20:54:26
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Re: which fttc router.


[re: Anonymous] [link to this post]
 
560 KB/sec is 560 * 8 = 4480 kilo bits per second

Andrew Ferguson, andrew@thinkbroadband.com
www.thinkbroadband.com - formerly known as ADSLguide.org.uk
The author of the above post is a thinkbroadband staff member. It may not constitute an official statement on behalf of thinkbroadband.
Anonymous
(Unregistered)Sun 29-Apr-12 21:00:26
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Re: which fttc router.


[re: MrSaffron] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by MrSaffron:
560 KB/sec is 560 * 8 = 4480 kilo bits per second


ok so im wrong on both counts..............

i use the desktop network meter from here http://addgadget.com/ set to my network port and thats the figure it ststes, my router is saying connected at 4150 (ok not tec 4 meg but close enough)

will now shut up now the experts are here smile
Standard User saboo1690
(learned) Sun 29-Apr-12 21:21:06
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Re: which fttc router.


[re: saboo1690] [link to this post]
 
So Im i right in thinking that the draytek is not good enough for a 80/20 connection and if not which router is........smile

My ip profile is set at 64.97mbps and the fastest throughput I've seen is about 7.50

Saboo
Standard User TheManStan
(regular) Sun 29-Apr-12 21:23:59
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Re: which fttc router.


[re: saboo1690] [link to this post]
 
2750n 100 Mbps WAN

Standard User saboo1690
(learned) Sun 29-Apr-12 21:33:20
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Re: which fttc router.


[re: TheManStan] [link to this post]
 
So is the draytek 2750n the router i should be getting over the draytek 2850n.....smile
Standard User Stoo
(regular) Sun 29-Apr-12 21:53:27
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Re: which fttc router.


[re: saboo1690] [link to this post]
 
I don't think the Draytek 2850n is a problem - it's rated for 30a profiles..

Draytek mention:

Max. WAN Throughput in excess of 50Mb/s


Probably worth emailing Draytek to confirm rather than just guessing.

Edited by Stoo (Sun 29-Apr-12 21:59:16)

Standard User qasdfdsaq
(newbie) Sun 29-Apr-12 21:55:46
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Re: which fttc router.


[re: Stoo] [link to this post]
 
The specs say:

VDSL support (WAN3, RJ11):
VDSL2 Profile: 8a, 8b, 8c, 8d, 12a, 12b, 17a, 30a
Max. WAN Throughput in excess of 50Mb/s

It is not limited to 50Mb and can probably do up to 400.
Standard User Ripley
(committed) Sun 29-Apr-12 23:43:31
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Re: which fttc router.


[re: qasdfdsaq] [link to this post]
 
I posted about this a while back...

http://forums.thinkbroadband.com/dslrouter/t/4064933...

Drayteks answer to me was the officail spec is 50 meg throughput, although they say that is conservative and it would be able to do more.

I brought one anyway lol

Still awaiting FTTC so you let you know!

Maybe somebody else is using a 2850 already

Freeserve Dial-Up --> BTopenworld --> <n>ildram -->Talk Talk LLU --> ZeN
DrayTek 2850 VN

My Broadband Speed Test
Standard User dspillett
(committed) Mon 30-Apr-12 16:44:21
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Re: which fttc router.


[re: saboo1690] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by saboo1690:
My ip profile is set at 64.97mbps and the fastest throughput I've seen is about 7.50
If that 7.50 is mbytes/sec observed throughput then that sounds high to me. 7.50*8 = 60mbit/sec, about 92% of profile. Closer to 97% if adjusting for the 7.5 being MiB (7.5*1024*1024) not MB (7.5*1000*1000).

If the 7.50 if mbits/sec, then you have a problem that I think is unlikely to be due to the router (unless the router goes completely odd when swamped) as it is far below what 40/10 should deliver never mind 80/20 (unless the 7.5 is an upstream reading?). I'd expect to see more "lost" (compared to the profile rate) in ATM and TCP overheads.

Regarding alternatives: I have a small Linux box that runs 24/7 anyway, so I've connected it directly to the VDSL modem on one network interface and it does the routing/firewall/vpn work for the rest of my network - no extra router required. Setting up PPPoE is pretty easy if you have a reasonable amount of experience of Linux networking (though not a solution I'd recommend if you haven't, as you may be "on your own" if something goes wrong).

--------------------------------------------------------
Current ISP: Andrews & Arnold (AAISP) via FTTC at ~40Mbit down (has occasionally dropped to ~36) & ~10Mbit up, joined July 2011.
Previous setup: Be Pro with UploadPlus (ADSL2+, AnnexM), 12ish Mbit down, 1.6 up, happy customer for ~2.5 years.
Standard User RobertoS
(sensei) Mon 30-Apr-12 16:59:36
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Re: which fttc router.


[re: dspillett] [link to this post]
 
I'd expect to see more "lost" (compared to the profile rate) in ATM and TCP overheads.
There's no ATM on OR FTTC.

There is a figure floating around somewhere giving the percentage of profile that many get on FTTC. IIRC it is in the high 90s.

My broadband basic info/help site - www.robertos.me.uk
My domains,website and mail hosting - Tsohost. Internet connection - Plusnet Value Fibre.

"Where talent is a dwarf, self-esteem is a giant." - Jean-Antoine Petit-Senn.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Standard User Zadeks
(experienced) Mon 30-Apr-12 17:06:33
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Re: which fttc router.


[re: saboo1690] [link to this post]
 
http://uk.asus.com/Networks/Wireless_Routers/RTN56U/
Standard User Bald_Eagle1
(committed) Mon 30-Apr-12 17:12:24
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Re: which fttc router.


[re: RobertoS] [link to this post]
 
Having studied my own & other users' connections for a number of months now, I have seen that IP Profile (BRAS Rate) is 96.79% of Sync speed & that at "quiet times" speedtest.net usually returns a throughput speed of around 97% of IP Profile.

EDIT:
The above speeds are only relevant when using wired ethernet connections as wireless connections can be/are affected by many "other" factors.

Edited by Bald_Eagle1 (Mon 30-Apr-12 17:15:06)

Standard User RobertoS
(sensei) Mon 30-Apr-12 23:00:58
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Re: which fttc router.


[re: Bald_Eagle1] [link to this post]
 
smile
I was hoping the eagle would fly to my rescue tongue !

My broadband basic info/help site - www.robertos.me.uk
My domains,website and mail hosting - Tsohost. Internet connection - Plusnet Value Fibre.

"Where talent is a dwarf, self-esteem is a giant." - Jean-Antoine Petit-Senn.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Standard User saboo1690
(learned) Tue 01-May-12 21:15:03
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Re: which fttc router.


[re: Zadeks] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by Zadeks:
http://uk.asus.com/Networks/Wireless_Routers/RTN56U/


Hi zadeks

The link you put on here is it a router for vdsl2. Because it looks really good and has a brilliant price. If it is for vdsl2 I'll buy it........smile


Cheers
saboo
ISP Representative Adsl24
(isp) Tue 01-May-12 21:25:20
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Re: which fttc router.


[re: saboo1690] [link to this post]
 
Its just a standard wireless router (alebit high spec) so you still need the Openreach modem

James
Technical Director, ADSL24

We supply ADSL, ADSL2+, LLU and FTTC VDSL2 services as well as cheap line rental and bundle deals!
Visit our website for the latest offers.
The above post has been made by an ISP REPRESENTATIVE (although not necessarily the ISP being discussed in the post).
Standard User kasg
(experienced) Tue 01-May-12 21:26:05
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Re: which fttc router.


[re: saboo1690] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by saboo1690:
The link you put on here is it a router for vdsl2. Because it looks really good and has a brilliant price. If it is for vdsl2 I'll buy it........smile

From the spec it appears to be just a router, not a modem, so VDSL doesn't really enter into it, i.e. it would work but you'd need the Openreach modem as well.

Edit: James beat me to it!

Kevin

plusnet Extra 80/20 trial
Using OpenDNS

Edited by kasg (Tue 01-May-12 21:31:07)

Standard User saboo1690
(learned) Tue 01-May-12 21:53:48
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Re: which fttc router.


[re: kasg] [link to this post]
 
Cheers lads. i think Im going to buy this router i think or maybe the draytek 2850n......
I can't make up my mind...............lol
Standard User BatBoy
(legend) Tue 01-May-12 21:59:07
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Re: which fttc router.


[re: saboo1690] [link to this post]
 
The Openreach modem is a router anyway.


_____________________________________________________________________________________________ this is not usenet __________________
Standard User qasdfdsaq
(learned) Tue 01-May-12 22:07:39
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Re: which fttc router.


[re: Bald_Eagle1] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by Bald_Eagle1:
Having studied my own & other users' connections for a number of months now, I have seen that IP Profile (BRAS Rate) is 96.79% of Sync speed & that at "quiet times" speedtest.net usually returns a throughput speed of around 97% of IP Profile.

EDIT:
The above speeds are only relevant when using wired ethernet connections as wireless connections can be/are affected by many "other" factors.

I've once got 97.9% of IP profile, and that was at peak time no less. Though on average, with IP throughput at basically 100% of profile, Speedtest.net results usually linger at about 96.5-97.5% as you say.

I've also had a single file download go at 9.4MB/sec, aka also 97% of IP profile.
Standard User kasg
(experienced) Tue 01-May-12 22:37:09
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Re: which fttc router.


[re: saboo1690] [link to this post]
 
Ok, as long as you realise you are comparing a combined router and modem with a router.

Kevin

plusnet Extra 80/20 trial
Using OpenDNS
Standard User kasg
(experienced) Tue 01-May-12 22:39:17
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Re: which fttc router.


[re: BatBoy] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by BatBoy:
The Openreach modem is a router anyway.

Only if you unlock it and obviously not wireless.

Kevin

plusnet Extra 80/20 trial
Using OpenDNS
Standard User BatBoy
(legend) Tue 01-May-12 22:48:24
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Re: which fttc router.


[re: kasg] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by kasg:
In reply to a post by BatBoy:
The Openreach modem is a router anyway.

Only if you unlock it and obviously not wireless.
If it's for wireless then wan throughput isn't an issue.


_____________________________________________________________________________________________ this is not usenet __________________
Standard User RobertoS
(sensei) Tue 01-May-12 22:58:21
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Re: which fttc router.


[re: saboo1690] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by saboo1690:
I have a network running with Ethernet plugs so i need a router.......
I assume you mean Homeplug type stuff, over the mains? What speed rating are they?

My broadband basic info/help site - www.robertos.me.uk
My domains,website and mail hosting - Tsohost. Internet connection - Plusnet Value Fibre.

"Where talent is a dwarf, self-esteem is a giant." - Jean-Antoine Petit-Senn.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Standard User qasdfdsaq
(learned) Wed 02-May-12 00:21:00
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Re: which fttc router.


[re: BatBoy] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by BatBoy:
In reply to a post by kasg:
In reply to a post by BatBoy:
The Openreach modem is a router anyway.

Only if you unlock it and obviously not wireless.
If it's for wireless then wan throughput isn't an issue.

Yes it is. The Openreach modem maxes out at about 60mbps in router mode, your average "N300" wireless will do at least double that, four times under certain conditions.
Standard User saboo1690
(learned) Wed 02-May-12 07:13:13
Print Post

Re: which fttc router.


[re: RobertoS] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by RobertoS:
In reply to a post by saboo1690:
I have a network running with Ethernet plugs so i need a router.......
I assume you mean Homeplug type stuff, over the mains? What speed rating are they?


Im running a network with 500mbps plugs. That's why i was looking a gigabit router. i Do alot of streaming of hd movies over the network.....
Standard User saboo1690
(learned) Wed 02-May-12 07:14:33
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Re: which fttc router.


[re: kasg] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by kasg:
Ok, as long as you realise you are comparing a combined router and modem with a router.
[/quote

yes i do realise this.........[smile]
Standard User RobertoS
(sensei) Wed 02-May-12 08:50:29
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Re: which fttc router.


[re: saboo1690] [link to this post]
 
That's fine smile.

Is your existing router OK with 80/20 in terms of internet downstream performance? If so, might not your safest option, and possibly the best for your purpose, be a gig switch connected into that?

Very cheap to try.

My broadband basic info/help site - www.robertos.me.uk
My domains,website and mail hosting - Tsohost. Internet connection - Plusnet Value Fibre.

"Where talent is a dwarf, self-esteem is a giant." - Jean-Antoine Petit-Senn.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Standard User saboo1690
(learned) Wed 02-May-12 14:11:23
Print Post

Re: which fttc router.


[re: RobertoS] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by RobertoS:
That's fine smile.

Is your existing router OK with 80/20 in terms of internet downstream performance? If so, might not your safest option, and possibly the best for your purpose, be a gig switch connected into that?

Very cheap to try.



Im abit of a novice at this so you'll have to excuse me....lol
this is my setup......
Open reach modem down stairs with a cat5 cable running up stairs to the router which is a netgear wndr1000. Which is a 100mbps router. running from this i have 4 500mbps Ethernet plugs which have various hardware plugged in (xbox media player sky box etc ).
I was looking a gigabit router because i thought it would run Abit better.
Is this the case or am i wasting my money.......smile
Standard User RobertoS
(sensei) Wed 02-May-12 15:47:32
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Re: which fttc router.


[re: saboo1690] [link to this post]
 
Right - I don't intend to advise you at this stage, as I don't really feel in a position to, but I can explain a bit about the hardware. That might help you.

What we lazily call a router can contain up to four different things, which are also available as separate items. The one-box products are just that, convenient for some people, like most domestic setups, but not necessarily having the same level of "excellence" in each component.

The four items are a modem, linking into a router, then hanging off the router is an ethernet switch and possibly a Wireless Access Point.

Think of your computer. Processor, RAM, disc, ethernet port, wireless point, amongst other things. The ideal configuration for one person can be different from another's. I look for small disc, medium processor, biggest RAM I can get, and wireless "n", as the best combination for my requirements within my budget.

Your router has three of the four. No modem. Your maximum input from the net (at the moment) is 80Mbps, which should get out of the Openreach modem into any router and out the other side into the built-in switch with no trouble. I believe that switch should also cope with sending that out of any one of its four ports. More techie people may contradict me there, as my belief could be wrong. But not dramatically so.

Your main reason for wanting a gig switch is for internal traffic on your LAN. By getting a gig switch, they look to be cheap, and connecting that to one of the Netgear ports, then everything else to the gig switch, job done! Cheap and easy if it proves satisfactory, and only £20'ish gone if you can't resell it. (At that price I don't think there would be much resale market, but I don't know).

As I said, I might get shot down on this, but if I do, so be it smile. Or maybe people will agree that it fits your particular needs. I'm just throwing it in as what I woudl be inclined to do. A dedicated switch getting on with running the LAN.

My broadband basic info/help site - www.robertos.me.uk
My domains,website and mail hosting - Tsohost. Internet connection - Plusnet Value Fibre.

"Where talent is a dwarf, self-esteem is a giant." - Jean-Antoine Petit-Senn.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Standard User kasg
(experienced) Wed 02-May-12 17:07:47
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Re: which fttc router.


[re: RobertoS] [link to this post]
 
Just to be absolutely certain on this, if you plug a gigabit switch into a 100Mb port on a router (or, more correctly, the Ethernet switch part of the router wink), is it correct that the router will not inhibit the throughput between two gigabit-capable devices connected to the switch?

Kevin

plusnet Extra 80/20 trial
Using OpenDNS
Standard User panda
(committed) Wed 02-May-12 17:16:19
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Re: which fttc router.


[re: kasg] [link to this post]
 
If both devices are connected to the Gb switch, the traffic won't even get as far as the router, it will stay local with the switch.
e.g. Device 1 <-> Switch <-> Device 2

Only traffic that has a destination to somewhere that isn't connected to the switch will need to traverse the 100Mb link to the router.

Eats shoots and leaves.
Administrator MrSaffron
(staff) Wed 02-May-12 17:16:30
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Re: which fttc router.


[re: qasdfdsaq] [link to this post]
 
Really? A N300 getting 240 Mbps? Given the 300Mbps is download+upload I see that hard to believe unless you are talking combined figures, which people on forums rarely use.

Andrew Ferguson, andrew@thinkbroadband.com
www.thinkbroadband.com - formerly known as ADSLguide.org.uk
The author of the above post is a thinkbroadband staff member. It may not constitute an official statement on behalf of thinkbroadband.
Standard User qasdfdsaq
(learned) Wed 02-May-12 17:49:43
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Re: which fttc router.


[re: MrSaffron] [link to this post]
 
As a half-duplex interface, it can achieve full speed in either direction or half speed in both directions simultaneously. E.g. in my example, 240mbps download and 0 mbps upload, or 240mbps upload and 0mbps download, or any combination of the two, e.g. 160 down and 80 up.

It's the same as half-duplex 100mbps ethernet is not 50 down plus 50 up.

Edited by qasdfdsaq (Wed 02-May-12 17:50:46)

Standard User kasg
(experienced) Wed 02-May-12 17:51:46
Print Post

Re: which fttc router.


[re: panda] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by panda:
Only traffic that has a destination to somewhere that isn't connected to the switch will need to traverse the 100Mb link to the router.

Thanks, that's what I hoped, I was thinking of doing something similar myself.

Kevin

plusnet Extra 80/20 trial
Using OpenDNS
Standard User saboo1690
(learned) Wed 02-May-12 18:09:29
Print Post

Re: which fttc router.


[re: saboo1690] [link to this post]
 
Thanks for the advice everyone its been a great help........smile

Cheers
saboo
Standard User RobertoS
(sensei) Wed 02-May-12 18:43:22
Print Post

Re: which fttc router.


[re: saboo1690] [link to this post]
 
Let us know what you decide, and how it goes smile. To help others.

My broadband basic info/help site - www.robertos.me.uk
My domains,website and mail hosting - Tsohost. Internet connection - Plusnet Value Fibre.

"Where talent is a dwarf, self-esteem is a giant." - Jean-Antoine Petit-Senn.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Standard User saboo1690
(learned) Wed 02-May-12 18:45:49
Print Post

Re: which fttc router.


[re: RobertoS] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by RobertoS:
Let us know what you decide, and how it goes smile. To help others.



will do. cheers again..........smile
Standard User BatBoy
(legend) Wed 02-May-12 18:51:20
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Re: which fttc router.


[re: qasdfdsaq] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by qasdfdsaq:
The Openreach modem maxes out at about 60mbps in router mode
Really? I've seen you say this a few times. Got a link?


_____________________________________________________________________________________________ this is not usenet __________________
Standard User qasdfdsaq
(learned) Wed 02-May-12 18:58:35
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Re: which fttc router.


[re: BatBoy] [link to this post]
 
Only from my own tests. I'm not aware of anyone else doing any tests that either confirm or contradict my results though.
Standard User BatBoy
(legend) Wed 02-May-12 19:03:01
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Re: which fttc router.


[re: qasdfdsaq] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by qasdfdsaq:
Only from my own tests. I'm not aware of anyone else doing any tests that either confirm or contradict my results though.
Should be easy for anyone who has a hacked modem to do a speedtest. According to you, over 60Mbps wouldn't be possible?


_____________________________________________________________________________________________ this is not usenet __________________
Standard User qasdfdsaq
(learned) Wed 02-May-12 19:07:32
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Re: which fttc router.


[re: BatBoy] [link to this post]
 
Should be easy enough, yes.

In my case my HG612, latest revision and firmware, in router mode, any WAN to LAN transfers maxed out at around 60mbps (actual IP throughput was perhaps 60.4 but never even exceeded 62) and there was high latency through the modem. Speedtests (web based) would show around ~56mbps

In bridge mode, IP throughput was 77.3 mbps and web speedtests showed 74-75.5mbps. This was done without changing any other settings or even rebooting the modem, though later I did a factory reset and repeated the tests since I was rather disappointed the first time round.

IP profile via BT speedtester was showing 77.43 throughout and (or whatever the maximum was, I can't recall exactly) and line sync was 79999/20000.

Edited by qasdfdsaq (Wed 02-May-12 19:09:45)

Standard User BatBoy
(legend) Wed 02-May-12 19:09:53
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Re: which fttc router.


[re: qasdfdsaq] [link to this post]
 
Maybe you're being throttled by your ISP?


_____________________________________________________________________________________________ this is not usenet __________________
Standard User qasdfdsaq
(learned) Wed 02-May-12 19:11:37
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Re: which fttc router.


[re: BatBoy] [link to this post]
 
No, because the modem was responding slowly to LAN requests - and doing the same tests via the same ISP through the same modem in bridge mode showed full throughput as expected.
Standard User BatBoy
(legend) Wed 02-May-12 19:13:49
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Re: which fttc router.


[re: qasdfdsaq] [link to this post]
 
In many cases, it only takes a resync to fool the throttling.


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Standard User qasdfdsaq
(learned) Wed 02-May-12 19:16:39
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Re: which fttc router.


[re: BatBoy] [link to this post]
 
The line wasn't resynced when switching between the two modes. And LAN requests were also slowed, which ISP throttling has no control over.

My ISP (BT) supposedly only throttle P2P traffic. There were no signs of any of my tests being throttled.

Like I said, I switched back and forth several times, and got the same results. Various different protocols performed at the same speeds.

Edited by qasdfdsaq (Wed 02-May-12 19:19:00)

Standard User BatBoy
(legend) Wed 02-May-12 19:19:12
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Re: which fttc router.


[re: qasdfdsaq] [link to this post]
 
Luckily, I get full speed most of the time.


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Standard User qasdfdsaq
(learned) Wed 02-May-12 19:20:09
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Re: which fttc router.


[re: BatBoy] [link to this post]
 
So do I - just not in router mode.

How much is full speed for you, and what router settings are you using? (And what revision of the modem do you have?)

Edited by qasdfdsaq (Wed 02-May-12 19:21:49)

Standard User BatBoy
(legend) Wed 02-May-12 19:23:21
Print Post

Re: which fttc router.


[re: qasdfdsaq] [link to this post]
 
As far as I can see, the modem is a router whether it's acting as a bridge or not, as the local interface is ethernet.


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Standard User qasdfdsaq
(learned) Wed 02-May-12 19:24:45
Print Post

Re: which fttc router.


[re: BatBoy] [link to this post]
 
It isn't.

The remote (VDSL) interface is also ethernet and in bridge mode it simply acts as a dumb switch, which is much faster than actually handling a PPPoE session, and NAT'ing your packets.
Standard User BatBoy
(legend) Wed 02-May-12 19:28:19
Print Post

Re: which fttc router.


[re: qasdfdsaq] [link to this post]
 
Actually, it uses PTM from the dslam, but you can't send ethernet packets down telephone wires. They have to be encapsulated in frames.


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Standard User qasdfdsaq
(learned) Wed 02-May-12 19:31:56
Print Post

Re: which fttc router.


[re: BatBoy] [link to this post]
 
An ethernet cable is in effect no more than two telephone wires so the point is moot.

According to Juniper, "PTM is based on the Ethernet in the First Mile (EFM) IEEE802.3ah standard". It contains a few extensions to 802.3ah but works just the same - i.e. PTM is simply a form of ethernet.

In any case, encapsulation is not a routing function, in bridge mode all the modem does is bridge from one interface to another. It does not perform any functions commonly associated with a consumer or enterprise router. All it does is function as a layer 2 bridge (commonly called a switch).

Finally, ethernet frames *are* frames. There is no such thing as an ethernet packet. Ethernet is the frame within which an IP packet is commonly encapsulated..

And if encapsulating a packet made something into a router, then every ethernet card would also be a router.

Based on what you said above, I'm assuming you don't have your modem in router mode at all.

Edited by qasdfdsaq (Wed 02-May-12 19:39:51)

Standard User BatBoy
(legend) Wed 02-May-12 20:15:23
Print Post

Re: which fttc router.


[re: qasdfdsaq] [link to this post]
 
As I said, it uses PTM, however, the basic difference is that VDSL2 still uses DMT, whereas Ethernet uses PAM. Remember this is not EFM, which is where you're getting confused.


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Standard User qasdfdsaq
(learned) Wed 02-May-12 20:30:26
Print Post

Re: which fttc router.


[re: BatBoy] [link to this post]
 
Encapsulation of PTM packets still does not make the device a router. Nor does the modulation standard used bear any relevance - Ethernet does not only use PAM either, nor does it care.Optical and copper ethernet uses different modulation but none of that is at all relevant

Regardless of whether we agree on terminology on the definition of a router, EFM or PTM, the "device" performs drastically different functions depending on whether the WAN connection setting is set to "Route" or "Bridge". Like most other consumer routers, even those with ethernet ports on both sides of the connection, the routing functions drastically slow down throughput. That was the whole point of this discussion.

In bridge mode, it performs no IP layer operations whatsoever. That's the difference.

Unless you actually have your device set to "Route" instead of "Bridge", and have gotten much higher speeds, my point stands. The device is limited to around 60mbps in router mode.

Edited by qasdfdsaq (Wed 02-May-12 20:37:39)

Standard User BatBoy
(legend) Wed 02-May-12 20:38:52
Print Post

Re: which fttc router.


[re: qasdfdsaq] [link to this post]
 
Your device may be limited but I'm yet to see any data. However, mine is fine.
I suspect you don't have FTTC at all.


_____________________________________________________________________________________________ this is not usenet __________________
Standard User qasdfdsaq
(learned) Wed 02-May-12 20:42:25
Print Post

Re: which fttc router.


[re: BatBoy] [link to this post]
 
I have given you the data - in the form of the speeds attained in the different modes, i.e. the whole point of this discussion. What other data is relevant? Is data incorrect because I typed it instead of copying and pasting it from a canned speedtest page?

I also asked you exactly what settings you're using on your device, so I could compare if I had missed anything that would have caused the difference.
Standard User BatBoy
(legend) Wed 02-May-12 20:47:43
Print Post

Re: which fttc router.


[re: qasdfdsaq] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by qasdfdsaq:
I have given you the data - in the form of the speeds attained in the different modes, i.e. the whole point of this discussion. What other data is relevant? Is data incorrect because I typed it instead of copying and pasting it from a canned speedtest page?
That's why I asked you for a link. You can type whatever you want, but it's hard to forge a link.


_____________________________________________________________________________________________ this is not usenet __________________
Standard User qasdfdsaq
(regular) Wed 02-May-12 20:48:52
Print Post

Re: which fttc router.


[re: BatBoy] [link to this post]
 
A link to what exactly?

Everything done by a person has to be typed up by someone at some stage.

Edited by qasdfdsaq (Wed 02-May-12 20:50:41)

Standard User BatBoy
(legend) Wed 02-May-12 20:53:31
Print Post

Re: which fttc router.


[re: qasdfdsaq] [link to this post]
 
A link to a speedtest result showing FTTC maxing out at 60 Mbps in router mode.


_____________________________________________________________________________________________ this is not usenet __________________
Standard User qasdfdsaq
(regular) Wed 02-May-12 20:54:44
Print Post

Re: which fttc router.


[re: BatBoy] [link to this post]
 
Router mode
http://speedtest.net/result/1896488701.png
http://speedtest.net/result/1896490105.png
http://speedtest.net/result/1896490888.png
http://speedtest.net/result/1896491952.png

Bridge mode
http://speedtest.net/result/1896506195.png
http://speedtest.net/result/1896506661.png
http://speedtest.net/result/1896507195.png
http://speedtest.net/result/1896507943.png

Edited by qasdfdsaq (Wed 02-May-12 21:35:17)

Standard User BatBoy
(legend) Wed 02-May-12 22:20:38
Print Post

Re: which fttc router.


[re: qasdfdsaq] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by qasdfdsaq:
Router mode
http://speedtest.net/result/1896488701.png
http://speedtest.net/result/1896490105.png
http://speedtest.net/result/1896490888.png
http://speedtest.net/result/1896491952.png

Bridge mode
http://speedtest.net/result/1896506195.png
http://speedtest.net/result/1896506661.png
http://speedtest.net/result/1896507195.png
http://speedtest.net/result/1896507943.png
Here's a funny thing - when you're 100 miles away from Lancaster in router mode you get below 60, but when you're 150 miles away from Lancaster in bridge mode you get above 60.

I'd say it is related to your IP address rather than the mode.


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Standard User WOMBATWILSON
(learned) Wed 02-May-12 22:37:26
Print Post

Re: which fttc router.


[re: saboo1690] [link to this post]
 
Do we know if this is compatible with both types of fttc equipement. Have asked on their forums but no reply as yet.
Standard User qasdfdsaq
(regular) Wed 02-May-12 23:20:50
Print Post

Re: which fttc router.


[re: BatBoy] [link to this post]
 
4 consistent results including from different servers and you blame the IP address? Really clutching at straws now aren't you.

Like I said, it was evident the device was being maxed out from the monitoring of latency during the test.

If IP address makes such a big difference, how is it the same connection gets dozens of results within ~1mbps of each other on dozens of different IP addresses, yet router mode will repeatedly and consistently cut off 20mbps each and every time, again with numerous different IPs, the exact same result?

Please come up with any logical explanation that every single IP address I obtain in router mode is consistently 20mbps slower than every single IP address I obtain in bridge mode. Do you seriously think terminating the PPPoE session on a different client can give a "slower" IP address?

Edited by qasdfdsaq (Wed 02-May-12 23:24:25)

Standard User BatBoy
(legend) Wed 02-May-12 23:25:08
Print Post

Re: which fttc router.


[re: qasdfdsaq] [link to this post]
 
The consistency is in the distance from the server as I said. How do you account for the distance from Lancaster changing?


_____________________________________________________________________________________________ this is not usenet __________________
Standard User qasdfdsaq
(regular) Wed 02-May-12 23:28:08
Print Post

Re: which fttc router.


[re: BatBoy] [link to this post]
 
Speedtest guesses your location based on what previous customers with that IP have said their location is along with various IP location databases which are also best-guess estimates.

Each BRAS has a pool of IP addresses it can randomly allocate from and I know people from Aberdeen served off the same BRAS as Edinburgh and therefore get IPs pulled from the same pool. IP based location guessing has never been precise.

Edited by qasdfdsaq (Wed 02-May-12 23:29:31)

Standard User BatBoy
(legend) Wed 02-May-12 23:30:45
Print Post

Re: which fttc router.


[re: qasdfdsaq] [link to this post]
 
But you claimed earlier that the IP address was unchanged when switching between bridge and route?


_____________________________________________________________________________________________ this is not usenet __________________
Standard User qasdfdsaq
(regular) Wed 02-May-12 23:32:19
Print Post

Re: which fttc router.


[re: BatBoy] [link to this post]
 
No I didn't. Please quote where you think I made such a claim.
Standard User BatBoy
(legend) Wed 02-May-12 23:37:28
Print Post

Re: which fttc router.


[re: qasdfdsaq] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by qasdfdsaq:
No I didn't. Please quote where you think I made such a claim.
In reply to a post by qasdfdsaq:
The line wasn't resynced when switching between the two modes.
Yet the distance changed.


_____________________________________________________________________________________________ this is not usenet __________________
Standard User qasdfdsaq
(regular) Wed 02-May-12 23:40:15
Print Post

Re: which fttc router.


[re: BatBoy] [link to this post]
 
The IP address is associated with the PPPoE session not your line sync. The two are independent of each other.

A resync of your line does not by itself change your IP address.

A PPPoE reconnect will almost certainly change your IP address but does not depend on a line resync.

Reconnecting PPPoE is not the same as resynching the line itself.

Edited by qasdfdsaq (Wed 02-May-12 23:41:13)

Standard User BatBoy
(legend) Wed 02-May-12 23:41:31
Print Post

Re: which fttc router.


[re: qasdfdsaq] [link to this post]
 
As I said, the difference you are seeing is due to the IP address, not the mode.


_____________________________________________________________________________________________ this is not usenet __________________
Standard User qasdfdsaq
(regular) Wed 02-May-12 23:42:23
Print Post

Re: which fttc router.


[re: BatBoy] [link to this post]
 
Please suggest why one IP address would be slower than another and why slow IP addresses only ever come up in router mode.
Standard User BatBoy
(legend) Wed 02-May-12 23:46:08
Print Post

Re: which fttc router.


[re: qasdfdsaq] [link to this post]
 
Because the routing has changed, as shown by the distance and the ping?


_____________________________________________________________________________________________ this is not usenet __________________
Standard User qasdfdsaq
(regular) Wed 02-May-12 23:49:03
Print Post

Re: which fttc router.


[re: BatBoy] [link to this post]
 
That does not explain
1) Why the device to respond slowly to local requests that do not involve it's external IP
2) Why "slower routed" IP with higher ping would have a faster speed
3) Why the more distant IP would have faster speed
4) Why it only affects router mode and not bridge mode.
5) Why it could be repeated several days later with two IPs with the same "distance and ping":

http://speedtest.net/result/1904720690.png (bridge)
http://speedtest.net/result/1904715176.png (route)

Edited by qasdfdsaq (Wed 02-May-12 23:54:35)

Standard User BatBoy
(legend) Wed 02-May-12 23:54:28
Print Post

Re: which fttc router.


[re: qasdfdsaq] [link to this post]
 
Maybe your modem is broken? Anyway, I don't agree with your conclusion about the difference between bridge and route. I find the OR modem quite adequate as a router and I'm not inclined to spend a few hundred on an alternative.


_____________________________________________________________________________________________ this is not usenet __________________
Standard User qasdfdsaq
(regular) Wed 02-May-12 23:59:30
Print Post

Re: which fttc router.


[re: BatBoy] [link to this post]
 
That would be a sensible and reasonable suspicion but so far you've been uncooperative in helping me confirm.

I've asked you several times to let me know what settings you use and what speed you get so we can tell if they differ because I have a faulty modem or simply tested differently from you.

Incidentally I've never suggested you spend several hundred pounds on an alternative. There are routers available for less than £10 can handle the full 80/20 just fine, my Openreach modem can't.

If you're right and mine's faulty, then please post your results and help me confirm it.

Edited by qasdfdsaq (Wed 02-May-12 23:59:56)

Standard User BatBoy
(legend) Thu 03-May-12 00:02:43
Print Post

Re: which fttc router.


[re: qasdfdsaq] [link to this post]
 
I used the settings discussed in this thread http://forums.thinkbroadband.com/fibre/t/4109217-hua...


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Standard User qasdfdsaq
(regular) Thu 03-May-12 00:05:51
Print Post

Re: which fttc router.


[re: BatBoy] [link to this post]
 
And what speed do you get on it using those settings?

(I presume, since you haven't mentioned otherwise, that you left QoS on as well, and the firewall off?)

Edited by qasdfdsaq (Thu 03-May-12 00:06:05)

Standard User BatBoy
(legend) Thu 03-May-12 00:07:21
Print Post

Re: which fttc router.


[re: qasdfdsaq] [link to this post]
 
No, I turned QOS off, and disabled TR069. I posted a speedtest here http://forums.thinkbroadband.com/bt/t/4112994-re-inf...


_____________________________________________________________________________________________ this is not usenet __________________
Standard User qasdfdsaq
(regular) Thu 03-May-12 00:10:41
Print Post

Re: which fttc router.


[re: BatBoy] [link to this post]
 
Which is impossible on the 80/20 FTTC service, so either you're talking about a different, non-FTTC modem or you've just been trolling this whole time.
Standard User BatBoy
(legend) Thu 03-May-12 00:16:33
Print Post

Re: which fttc router.


[re: qasdfdsaq] [link to this post]
 
I think its because YMMV. You seem convinced by your own theory. Whatever...


_____________________________________________________________________________________________ this is not usenet __________________
Standard User qasdfdsaq
(regular) Thu 03-May-12 00:20:20
Print Post

Re: which fttc router.


[re: BatBoy] [link to this post]
 
Course, your counter-arguement is that my IP address is slower and an impossible speedtest result. At least my theory remains consistent, unlike the 40 wild ideas you've plucked out of the air so far today...

Until someone sensible proves otherwise, I certainly won't be believing anything else you say.
Standard User BatBoy
(legend) Thu 03-May-12 00:28:31
Print Post

Re: which fttc router.


[re: qasdfdsaq] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by qasdfdsaq:
Until someone sensible proves otherwise, I certainly won't be believing anything else you say.
At least we agree that "Should be easy for anyone who has a hacked modem to do a speedtest.".

If only there was someone sensible with a hacked modem...


_____________________________________________________________________________________________ this is not usenet __________________
Standard User RobertoS
(sensei) Thu 03-May-12 00:57:09
Print Post

Re: which fttc router.


[re: BatBoy] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by BatBoy:
If only there was someone sensible with a hacked modem...
/me has one, but only on a 40/2 connection.

Not tried it yet in router mode, and no intention at the moment. Tired and woozy. Or issh that woozy and tired? May or or may not show anything on 40.

My broadband basic info/help site - www.robertos.me.uk
My domains,website and mail hosting - Tsohost. Internet connection - Plusnet Value Fibre.

"Where talent is a dwarf, self-esteem is a giant." - Jean-Antoine Petit-Senn.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Standard User asbokid
(member) Thu 03-May-12 05:25:37
Print Post

Re: which fttc router.


[re: RobertoS] [link to this post]
 
It would be interesting to put the VDSL2 chipsets head-to-head to compare their performance..

The Broadcom 6368 found in the HG612 must be the most dominant VDSL2 chipset on the market. It is the CPU that drives most all VDSL2 CPE supplied around the world, including the Huawei here in Blighty, the Drayteks and ZTE's VDSL2 devices which seem popular on the Continent.

Then there is the Lantiq VRX200 VDSL2 family. This VDSL2 CPE chipset is found in the ECI B-FOCuS (the 'other' VDSL2 CPE device from Openreach) as well as the FritzBox! Lantiq was formerly the wireline division of Infineon.

In the USA, AT&T supplies some curiosity equipment for its VDSL2 service. I am desperately trying to get these working on the Openreach service here in the UK.. The AT&T devices are all from 2Wire - the 2Wire 3600, the 3800 and the 3801. They are lovely devices, but are nailed down hard.

The 3801 is driven by a dual core Trimedia 5-issue slot VLIW CPU coupled to a SigmaDesigns / Coppergate CG3210H VDSL2 Analog Front End and Line Driver.

Whereas the 3600 and the 3800 both have a single core Trimedia CPU (the 2Wire Ares CPU also found in the silver BT Business Hubs). The VDSL2 chipset in both devices is the Ikanos Accelity DA8-7781 AFE and LD.

Has anyone come across any more VDSL2 CPE chipsets, perhaps yet to to reach market?

cheers, a
Administrator MrSaffron
(staff) Thu 03-May-12 11:24:57
Print Post

Re: which fttc router.


[re: BatBoy] [link to this post]
 
The only warning to BatBoy

Quit trolling, you ask for explanation after explanation but offer none yourself. This is exactly the behaviour you have had suspensions for before.

Andrew Ferguson, andrew@thinkbroadband.com
www.thinkbroadband.com - formerly known as ADSLguide.org.uk
The author of the above post is a thinkbroadband staff member. It may not constitute an official statement on behalf of thinkbroadband.
Standard User BatBoy
(legend) Thu 03-May-12 19:15:17
Print Post

Re: which fttc router.


[re: MrSaffron] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by MrSaffron:
The only warning to BatBoy

Quit trolling, you ask for explanation after explanation but offer none yourself. This is exactly the behaviour you have had suspensions for before.
I disagree. I'm not trolling. I've answered all his questions he posed. I've diagnosed his problem as well, as a bonus.

If there are any explanations you think are missing, ask away and I will answer.


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Administrator MrSaffron
(staff) Thu 03-May-12 20:52:53
Print Post

Re: which fttc router.


[re: BatBoy] [link to this post]
 
Sorry you disagree.

The IP distance issue is one that is just a wild theory too and how distances are calculated between sites on speedtest.net often bears little relation to the distance of fibre the data travels over.

Andrew Ferguson, andrew@thinkbroadband.com
www.thinkbroadband.com - formerly known as ADSLguide.org.uk
The author of the above post is a thinkbroadband staff member. It may not constitute an official statement on behalf of thinkbroadband.
Standard User WOMBATWILSON
(learned) Fri 04-May-12 14:10:49
Print Post

Re: which fttc router.


[re: saboo1690] [link to this post]
 
So are we saying that all chipsets are compatible regardles of the fttc equipement?
Standard User RobertoS
(sensei) Fri 04-May-12 15:40:45
Print Post

Re: which fttc router.


[re: WOMBATWILSON] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by WOMBATWILSON:
So are we saying that all chipsets are compatible regardles of the fttc equipement?
If you are asking about (cable) routers connected to the Openreach modem, rather than a VDSL2 router replacing the Openreach modem+SomeRouter, then yes.

The feed from the OR modem to the router is pure ethernet.

My broadband basic info/help site - www.robertos.me.uk
My domains,website and mail hosting - Tsohost. Internet connection - Plusnet Value Fibre.

"Where talent is a dwarf, self-esteem is a giant." - Jean-Antoine Petit-Senn.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Standard User WOMBATWILSON
(learned) Fri 04-May-12 18:18:18
Print Post

Re: which fttc router.


[re: RobertoS] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by RobertoS:
In reply to a post by WOMBATWILSON:
So are we saying that all chipsets are compatible regardles of the fttc equipement?
If you are asking about (cable) routers connected to the Openreach modem, rather than a VDSL2 router replacing the Openreach modem+SomeRouter, then yes.

The feed from the OR modem to the router is pure ethernet.


No I mean the whole thing getting rid of the modem with an all-in-one modem/router.
Standard User asbokid
(member) Fri 04-May-12 18:50:55
Print Post

Re: which fttc router.


[re: WOMBATWILSON] [link to this post]
 
At the physical/data link layers, all VDSL2 chipsets should be compatible with the FTTC service from BT Openreach. However, the firmware of a modem/router can be locked to a particular provider - e.g. AT&T, Bell, BT, DT, etc..

As for combining the functions of a modem and a router - there are question marks over the capabilities of a single device to perform those two tasks, especially at speeds of 80Mbps (17MHz profile) and perhaps even higher (e.g. a 30MHz Profile.)

AT&T is shipping combined modem-routers to its VDSL2 U-Verse customers in North America. These devices, imvho, are superior in performance to the Huawei HG612 / ECI B-FOCuS supplied as FTTC CPE by BT Openreach.

Yet AT&T customers are still complaining that the modem-routers cannot cope with the relatively light loads from their home networks. Routing the traffic for a handful of networked devices is reportedly enough to crash the U-Verse modem-router or grind it to a complete halt.

AT&T has yet to fit an 802.11n wi-fi chipset to its U-Verse modem-routers.. They are still relying on an Atheros 802.11g chipset. That either tells us something about the true throughput of wi-fi, or the AT&T FTTC service!

cheers, a

EDIT: It seems that only four VDSL2 CPE solutions are readily available. Surprisingly few..

  • Broadcom 6368 (1)
  • Lantiq (was Infineon, was TI DSL Solutions) VRX200 (2)
  • Ikanos (was Conexant) Accelity (3)
  • PMC-Sierra PM4380 (4)

Ralink (which bought TrendChip in 2010) was reportedly on the brink of launching its own VDSL2 CPE chipset - the RT65168. However, in March 2011, Ralink was swallowed up by Mediatek who seem to have scuttled the plans. (5)

(1) http://www.broadcom.com/products/Broadband-Carrier-A...
(2) http://www.lantiq.com/products/broadband-customer-pr...
(3) http://www.ikanos.com/products/broadband-dsl/accelit...
(4) http://pmcs.com/products/pm4380/
(5) http://www.ralinktech.com/en/05_press-center/news.ph...

Edited by asbokid (Sat 05-May-12 00:32:55)

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