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Standard User 1mb_broadband
(newbie) Mon 12-Nov-12 21:05:31
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commercial criteria


[link to this post]
 
Would anyone be able to clarify who makes the decisions regarding the commercial criteria regarding upgrading BT cabinets to fibre technology?

My neighbour has done a lot of research on this subject following finding out that the cabinet we are connected to does not reach the commercial criteria to be upgraded.

Our exchange has recently been upgraded to fibre technology. The estate that I live in has two cabinets. One was upgraded and one was not. My neighbour has asked for reasons why and what streets are covered by each cabinet and the results are baffling to say the least.

The cabinet that was upgraded covers 354 houses.

Of those 354 houses 321 currently have access to FTTH with virgin media.

32 Houses do not have access to virgin media and have less than 1mb broadband due to the distance from the exchange.



The cabinet that was not upgraded covers an area of 386 houses.

Of those 259 currently have FTTH with virgin media.

127 do not have access to virgin Media and have less than 1mb broadband due to the distance from the exchange.



If the upgraded cabinet reaches the commercial criteria for upgrade why does the non-upgraded one not. I know that I am no expert but there is almost 100 houses extra that BT would have as a captive market therefore it would make sense to upgrade??

Can anyone clarify this?
We have contacted BT and they have said that there is nothing that now can be done. The cabinate will not be upgraded even though all of this information has been put to them.

Where do we go next?
Standard User MHC
(sensei) Mon 12-Nov-12 21:34:47
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Re: commercial criteria


[re: 1mb_broadband] [link to this post]
 
Ask Virgin Mediato provide service.


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

M H C


taurus excreta cerebrum vincit
Standard User Spasch
(fountain of knowledge) Mon 12-Nov-12 21:55:26
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Re: commercial criteria


[re: 1mb_broadband] [link to this post]
 
2 options exist:

Run a campaign by leafleting the houses that are served by that particular cabinet are not served by Virgin, asking them to register their interest. If enough people register with OpenReach they may consider upgrading the cabinet during infill.

Edit: Register here

Alternatively, find out from your council it they're bidding for BDUK funding.

Edited by Spasch (Mon 12-Nov-12 21:57:28)


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Administrator MrSaffron
(staff) Mon 12-Nov-12 21:57:26
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Re: commercial criteria


[re: 1mb_broadband] [link to this post]
 
Openreach is in control of the commercial process - they decide in a way not unlike how Virgin Media decide to do some streets and not others...figures in a spreadsheet

BTW VIrgin Media is NOT FTTH, it is FTTN where the final 100 to 200m are over a metal coax cable. Big difference

Did you include
Conservation area
Checks on objects to cabinet citing
Possible lack of space of pavement
Distance and cost of getting power to cabinet
A person with a campaign may have influenced things
Distance from cabinet to the existing fibre ducting
Distance of homes from the cabinet
Distance of new ducting needed between old and new cabinet

Andrew Ferguson, andrew@thinkbroadband.com
www.thinkbroadband.com - formerly known as ADSLguide.org.uk
The author of the above post is a thinkbroadband staff member. It may not constitute an official statement on behalf of thinkbroadband.
Standard User 1mb_broadband
(newbie) Mon 12-Nov-12 22:40:07
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Re: commercial criteria


[re: MrSaffron] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by MrSaffron:
Openreach is in control of the commercial process - they decide in a way not unlike how Virgin Media decide to do some streets and not others...figures in a spreadsheet

BTW VIrgin Media is NOT FTTH, it is FTTN where the final 100 to 200m are over a metal coax cable. Big difference

Did you include
Conservation area
Checks on objects to cabinet citing
Possible lack of space of pavement
Distance and cost of getting power to cabinet
A person with a campaign may have influenced things
Distance from cabinet to the existing fibre ducting
Distance of homes from the cabinet
Distance of new ducting needed between old and new cabinet

Hi Thanks for the information.
From the information we have gathered
1. we are not in a conservation area
2. There are no objections to the cabinate
3. there is plenty of space by the non upgraded cabinate
4. the cabinate is about 1/2 mile from the upgraded cabinate but power should not be an issue
5. According to the council there have been no objections.
6. the distance from the cabinate is less than 500m (although I am closer to the upgraded one!!)
7. No idea about that one!!

Thanks for any help.
Standard User garethr
(newbie) Mon 12-Nov-12 23:44:05
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Re: commercial criteria


[re: Spasch] [link to this post]
 
Not sure how that example would work for BDUK. I would presume it would be excluded.

Also, watch out because BT have this nasty habit or saying things aren't viable then two weeks later you catch the cheeky monkeys putting in fibre. They appear to randomly reply with cut and past even for high level complaints. Having the people at the tops contact details helps!

We've made good progress by campaigning, but we started to get a bit sneaky which BT didn't like very much. Our demand stimulation exercise got them very very upset. Actually, it got a lot of people upset not just BT.

Needles to say fibre deployment in my area is progressing nicely thanks - but god is it slow.

G
Standard User WWWombat
(experienced) Tue 13-Nov-12 03:17:51
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Re: commercial criteria


[re: 1mb_broadband] [link to this post]
 
As others have indicated, it is solely within BT that the decisions are made for commercial rollout.

Your neighbour has perhaps identified the opportunities available if the cabinet were converted - the number of houses, and the competition both being important issues.

However, a significant amount of the decision rests on the cost to deploy - in particular the cost to supply a power connection, and the cost to feed fibre - which requires space in ducting going in the right direction, or new ducting.

In addition, if the fibre has to pass the cabinet on its way further out, then the cost for *this* cabinet is relatively minor. However, if the cabinet is a "leaf" in the fibre network, then it has to bear the cost burden alone.

BT will be in control of feeding fibre - and will know what is required there.

However, the odd-one-out can be the cost of providing electricity. What you describe as "should not be an issue" may indeed be an issue. Due to the way the charging for new electricity supplies now works, If the cabinet tips the local transformer over the edge - and an upgraded or new transformer is required - then BT would have to pay the full charge for doing this. I've seen some complaints (from electrical contractors) suggesting that this could be £20,000 (or one case which might have even been £54,000). And that's without having to run cables a long distance!

Whatever the cause, the cabinet is obviously failing in an accountant's spreadsheets.

Now, in BDUK terms, things are different. Firstly the council get to decide where the upgrades should happen. Additionally, it would appear to me that infill cabinets - those that just fail the commercial criteria in an already-converted exchange - are the ones *most* likely to be converted within BDUK provided BT wins the contract.
Standard User pau1777
(newbie) Tue 13-Nov-12 04:04:44
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Re: commercial criteria


[re: WWWombat] [link to this post]
 
Hi,
This is my neighbour who has posted this.
Just to give you a little background we live in a medium sized village in the Northwest called Lowton. We are connected to the Ashton in Makerfield exchange.

For years the a lot of the village has had very poor broadband connection, around 800k-1mb download due to the distance from the exchange and we have been highlighted as a broadband “slowspot”

http://www.broadband-notspot.org.uk/coverage-map.htm...

About two thirds of the estate have access to Virgin media services of if they want fast broadband they have been able to connect with virgin.

At the beginning of the year we found out that the Ashton in Makerfield exchange was being upgraded to fibre technology and this would be available by September. I thought that my very slow and unreliable broadband problems would be over!!

Over the past few months we have seen the new green street cabinets installed and we have been waiting for the day that we could order BT Infinity. The deadline passed (30th September) and I was checking every day when I came home from work but no sign

I then contacted BT to see what the hold-up was and I was told that the cabinet that I was connected to was not upgraded as it did not meet the “commercial criteria” for upgrade. Shocked about this I went round to my next door neighbour to tell them only to find that they had ordered BT infinity that day.

I started to do a little more digging to try and find out the reason why my next door neighbour could get superfast broadband, but I could not.

On my estate there are 2 cabinets. Number 55 and number 69. Cabinet 55 was upgraded but 69 not upgraded. I actually live nearer to cabinet 55 than I do to 69!!

Anyway as I said two thirds of the estate has access to Virgin media, however there is a pocket of about 150 houses that do not. I asked BT to give me the details of the areas that bath Cabinet 55 and 69 covered to see if I could work out why my cabinet did not meet the “commercial criteria”

I was sent this information from BT.

To my surprise the cabinet that has been updated (55) covers almost all the streets that already has access to virgin Media, there is only a small number of about 25-30 houses that will benefit from the upgraded service that cannot get Virgin. Cabinet 69 covers an area that is also covered by Virgin media; however the vast majority of the area, around 120 houses is not covered by the virgin media footprint and now will have no access to fast broadband services.

From the information provided to be by BT openreach the following streets are covered by the upgraded cab 55

BEARDSMORE DRIVE, , virgin Media

BRAITHWAITE ROAD, , virgin media

ALLERBY WAY, , virgin media

REDMAIN GROVE, , virgin media

GARTON DRIVE virgin media

HAGUE BUSH CLOSE, virgin media

HOLLY BUSH SQUARE virgin media

THORNBUSH CLOSE, , virgin media

THE GROVE (LOWTON), , virgin media

FIELDFARE CLOSE, virgin media

MULLEIN CLOSE, ASHWOOD FARM DEV., virgin media

WOODSORREL WAY, ,

SPEEDWELL CLOSE, ,

SAFFRON CLOSE, ASHWOOD FARM DEVELOPMENT.,

FOXGLOVE CLOSE virgin media

PRIMULA DR, , virgin media

FIELDFARE CLOSE Virgin media



This is the area covered by cab 69


DUXBURY WAY, virgin Media

DURRELL WAY, virgin Media

AMIS GROVE virgin Media

STEIN AVE, virgin Media

HUDSON GROVE, , virgin Media

LANDOR CLOSE virgin Media

CHANDLER WAY, , virgin Media

LAPWING CL virgin Media

BALLANTYNE WAY, , virgin Media

WILD AVUM CL virgin Media

CONINGSBY GARDENS, , virgin Media

SUDBROOK CLOSE, virgin Media

WILD ARUM CLOSE, , virgin Media

PLOVER WAY virgin Media

BUNTING CL virgin Media

REDSTART CL virgin Media

WOOD SORREL WAY

STONECHAT CL

WHINCHAT C

BRAMBLING WAY, ,

SPEEDWELL CLOSE, ,

SAFFRON CLOSE, ,

WHINCHAT CLOSE

BRAMBLING WAY



As you can see from Cabinet 55 the only streets that are not covered by Virgin media are Wood Sorrell way (most of which is connected to the non-upgraded cab 69)

Speedwell Close (most of which is connected to the non-upgraded cab 69)

And Saffron Close (most of which is connected to the non-upgraded cab 69)


There is a huge market for people who have no access from cabinet 69

Speedwell Close: Numbers 1,2,3,4,6

Wood Sorrell Way 1,2,3,4,6,8,10,11,12,14,16,17,19,21,23,25,27,29, 32,34,36,38,40,42,44,46,48

Saffron Close 1,3,5,7

Whinchat Close – All Houses 1-57

Brambling Way – All Houses 2-57

Stonechat Close All houses 1-8

I am finding it difficult to understand why cabinet 55 meets the “commercial criteria” and yet cabinet 69 does not since there are more people who have no access to fast broadband services are actually connected to the non-upgraded cabinet 69. Virgin Media has already saturated the market in the area covered by cabinet 55 for superfast broadband services.


The other issue is that the cables from the upgraded cabinet and the distributions points from each run very near the non-connected houses. The distribution point in my street where my neighbour is connected to cabinet 55 is about 10m from my house and the cable for this actually runs past my house!

I asked if I could be connected to the distribution point for the upgraded cabinet, and I was willing to pay for the work to be done and I was told that this would not be possible, even though it is so close to my house.

Our local councillor has said that he will "support" our cause as we are currently getting less than 1mb in download speed where as my neighbour who lives next door is now getting 60mb.

I have contacted BDUK but no reply as of yet. BT says there are no plans to upgrade the cab 69 nor will they connect us to the upgraded cab55.

Thanks for any help.
Standard User R0NSKI
(experienced) Tue 13-Nov-12 08:29:00
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Re: commercial criteria


[re: pau1777] [link to this post]
 
I've mapped all cabinets on our 3 local exchanges (link in my sig), and have noticed that one cabinet in particular appeared to be missed out.

Cabinet NDBRO 5, the red shaded area shown covers a large residential area, I could see no reason as to why this would not have been included in the initial roll out. The other one in that map is not being done, but this does serve a fairly small area, but their speeds are terrible, and a cabinet 280 meters away is being done, whist other cabinets which seem to serve small areas have been done.

NDBRO 5 is not far from the exchange, although closer ones have been done.
I'm sure fibre runs past this cabinet to one at the bottom of the road which has been done.
I don't think space or power are a problem.
There's no Virgin media in our area at all.,
Cabinets which are further out and serve less properties have been done.

I initially emailed Ian Livingston as to why it wasn't being done, and got a standard reply

Much later I emailed Open Reach and was told that it is now being done next March, along with one other cabinet that wasn't scheduled.

My feeling is that this cabinet was simply overlooked somehow, the roll out is vast and there's bound to be mistakes - I wonder if my email to Ian Livingston triggered someone to double check the figures.

And of course with BDUK funding coming up it wouldn't pay to do every cabinet if someone else is going to pay for some of them would it?

Edited by R0NSKI (Tue 13-Nov-12 08:33:27)

Standard User pau1777
(newbie) Tue 13-Nov-12 08:43:24
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Re: commercial criteria


[re: R0NSKI] [link to this post]
 
Hi,
I have emailed open reach and given them this information and there does not seem to be any movement on their position regarding this cab. It is not in their plans to upgrade saying that they have been very helpful with all the information they have given me.

I did point out that this left a quite large area with broadband speeds of 800k to a maximum of 1024k and this is mot the minimum of 2mb as stated in the digital Britain document, but this did not have any influence on their decision.
Our councillor is now involved and I am trying to get the MP involved,fortunately our MP is not in the jungle eating bugs but just as hard to get hold of!!!
As a small village there is a large proportion of us being overlooked. Having said that there is now a lot of people who now have the option of virgin media or BT infinity!!!
That does not seem fair to me.

Thanks for any help or advice you could me me.
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