General Discussion
  >> Fibre Broadband


Register (or login) on our website and you will not see this ad.


Pages in this thread: 1 | 2 | 3 | (show all)   Print Thread
Standard User The_Don_Wales
(newbie) Thu 03-Jan-13 16:05:21
Print Post

Fibre Boradband Poor performance What to do next ?


[link to this post]
 
The reason that I have included this post here (instead of with my service provider) is that I believe that the problem lies with BT Openreach. I don't know enough to know whether they are spinning me a line or whether it is indeed possible that I get no performance improvement with fibre and that my performance is much worse than that of my neighbours.

I’m looking for advice about how to proceed with our fibre broadband. We get poor speed (<2 Mbps) but our neighbours get relatively acceptable performance (12 Mbps+)

We moved into a semi-rural property in South East Wales just over a year ago. We’ve had a lot of problems with our phone and broadband over this past year and as a result have endured over 15 engineer visits in the past 12 months – our neighbours have had a similar number of visits. We are Talktalk customers, our neighbours are a mixture of Plusnet, Talktalk and BT customers.

The cabinet that serves our property is 1.5 km away by road but the line back to it is around 3.5km due to the circuitous route that it takes. The cabinet has been supports fibre. Until we “upgraded” to fibre we got between 1.5 and 2.0 Mbps which seems reasonable.

We upgraded to fibre broadband on 6 December 2012 and the speed we got was 5.0 Mbps. This reduced by 200-300kbps every day until it has settled at 1.8 Mbps. We’ve had three engineer visits, the first two of which were the “wrong kind of engineer”. The feedback from the final visit on 27 December (I didn’t get to speak to the engineer unfortunately) was that our line was simply not suitable for fibre broadband and that BT Openreach would not replace the line.

I don’t trust that engineer. Partly this is because I don’t understand how the line can be good enough for between 1.5 and 2.0 Mbps on Adsl2 and not get any better on fibre and partly because while the engineer was doing his investigations, he managed to wreck my neighbour’s telephone line and broadband connection completely. I feel that we are being fobbed off , that BT Openreach are simply sick of us and that the engineer is just covering for his own lack of knowledge and/or incompetence.

I also don’t understand how neighbours both sides of our property (one closer to the cabinet, the other further away) who must have 99% the same topology get perfectly acceptable broadband performance while we do not.

I could of course have the fibre equipment removed but every time we’ve had an engineer come to do something it’s taken at least four visits and a month to undo whatever has been done in the first place.

Do any of you with more experience of dealing with this kind of thing have any advice about how I might proceed – or maybe at least explain why our fibre performance is the same as our non-fibre performance and is so much worse than that of our neighbours.
Standard User RobertoS
(sensei) Thu 03-Jan-13 16:19:40
Print Post

Re: Fibre Boradband Poor performance What to do next ?


[re: The_Don_Wales] [link to this post]
 
It could be the original installer made a pig's ear of it. Longstanding Openreach engineers would have got it right first time, new recruits may have been rushed through training which didn't cover whatever is giving you grief, Kelly's and Quinn's subcontractors appear to have a few cowboys amongst them.

Having said that, I'm sure you will have had some pukka Openreach guys on this. So I'd have thought they would have cleaned up anything like that.

Just in case, do you know which is your master socket, and is the modem near it? What make of modem is it, Huawei or ECI? How many extensions have you got there, and what is connected to them?

Does the master socket now look like the picture on this page?

Please can you run a BT Performance Test, the left-hand Diagnostic option, and copy/paste the contents of the two results text boxes.

My broadband basic info/help site - www.robertos.me.uk | Domains,website and mail hosting - Tsohost.
Connection - Plusnet Extra Fibre (FTTC). Sync ~ 54.0/14.9Mbps @ 600m. - BQM

"Where talent is a dwarf, self-esteem is a giant." - Jean-Antoine Petit-Senn.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Allergy information: This post was manufactured in an environment where nuts are present. It may include traces of understatement, litotes and humour.
Administrator MrSaffron
(staff) Thu 03-Jan-13 16:35:03
Print Post

Re: Fibre Boradband Poor performance What to do next ?


[re: The_Don_Wales] [link to this post]
 
At 3.5km I would only ever expect speeds like you are seeing, and it may just be the lottery that your line has more repair joints in it than the neighbours. Or a few lines take a shorter route.

Tech explanation:

VDSL uses higher frequencies than ADSL2+, thus has a much shorter range, e.g. with 1.5km of wire you would only expect 15 Mbps. The lower ADSL frequencies give it longer range, but lower speeds for the majority.

Your situation is fairly rare, and hence why engineers may be less experienced and frankly am surprised that Openreach has not said it is either take service as it is, or leave going back to an ADSL service.

Andrew Ferguson, andrew@thinkbroadband.com
www.thinkbroadband.com - formerly known as ADSLguide.org.uk
The author of the above post is a thinkbroadband staff member. It may not constitute an official statement on behalf of thinkbroadband.


Register (or login) on our website and you will not see this ad.

Standard User WWWombat
(fountain of knowledge) Thu 03-Jan-13 16:55:31
Print Post

Re: Fibre Boradband Poor performance What to do next ?


[re: The_Don_Wales] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by The_Don_Wales:
or maybe at least explain why our fibre performance is the same as our non-fibre performance

Comparing fibre performance with non-fibre performance is like comparing apples with pears.

ADSL depends on the distance from the exchange, with a lower top performance and a greater overall reach.

VDSL2 in FTTC has a much higher top performance for those close, but degrades *much* faster than ADSL. Some documents glibly state that it degrades to ADSL-like performance after 2km. Unfortunately, practical experience seems to show that FTTC runs out anywhere between 1km and 2km, depending on the kind of metal in the line (aluminium is worse than copper), the diameter of the metal, the age, the number of joints, and the exposure to the elements.

Meanwhile, ADSL can reach over 5km, but from the exchange rather than the cabinet.

For someone who lives far from their cabinet, but where the cabinet is pretty close to the exchange, they could well find that FTTC is *slower* than ADSL.

The cabinet that serves our property is 1.5 km away by road but the line back to it is around 3.5km due to the circuitous route that it takes.

Are you sure? We've certainly had people report your kind of speeds for distances between 1.5km and 2km, but we've never had a report of anything that works *at all* at 3.5km.

and is so much worse than that of our neighbours.

We have come across cases where an individual's line *has* taken a circuitous route, while the neighbours has not - this usually happens when the copper is degrading, pair swaps have happened, capacity is reached etc. I'm not sure it is common, but it is possible.

In reply to a post by The_Don_Wales:
I’m looking for advice about how to proceed with our fibre broadband. We get poor speed (<2 Mbps) but our neighbours get relatively acceptable performance (12 Mbps+)

At this point, the usual advice would be to start arming yourself with more knowledge about the state of your line, and the statistics that come from the modem. This is hard enough when you have to learn about what the statistics mean, but made much harder when BT have locked access to the modem so you can't get to the statistics.

Take a look at this post I made on a recent thread. It has the same advice I'd start with here.

We upgraded to fibre broadband on 6 December 2012 and the speed we got was 5.0 Mbps. This reduced by 200-300kbps every day until it has settled at 1.8 Mbps.

That suggests that DLM has been intervening to gradually increase the interleaving & error protection, which has gradually robbed you of bandwidth to feed the protection.

That, in turn, suggests that you have a long line *and* are suffering from interference - the most common type being crosstalk from other FTTC customers. Have your neighbours seen their speed decrease since you connected? You could be interfering with their service too...

I feel that we are being fobbed off , that BT Openreach are simply sick of us and that the engineer is just covering for his own lack of knowledge and/or incompetence.

It is definitely hard work to get a fault FTTC line sorted out - it seems to be harder than plain ADSL, certainly.

However, the things that get in the way tend to be the Openreach systems & rules behind the scenes rather than the engineer who physically turns up, but only has a limited amount of time he is allowed to spend.

Unfortunately, you are right at the point where BT can indeed tell you that fibre isn't suitable. To get them to react differently requires you to do most of the running now...

I also don’t understand how neighbours both sides of our property (one closer to the cabinet, the other further away) who must have 99% the same topology get perfectly acceptable broadband performance while we do not.

The biggest issues occur with aging copper infrastructure, where some of the lines are not really suitable for fibre, and that is running at capacity. The usual solution to a dodgy line is to swap to a spare. But if there are no spares, then you get to keep whatever is left... and Openreach aren't especially keen on replacing the multi-pair cabling from cabinet out to the distribution point.
Standard User R0NSKI
(experienced) Thu 03-Jan-13 20:23:31
Print Post

Re: Fibre Boradband Poor performance What to do next ?


[re: The_Don_Wales] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by The_Don_Wales:
I also don’t understand how neighbours both sides of our property (one closer to the cabinet, the other further away) who must have 99% the same topology get perfectly acceptable broadband performance while we do not.


I've always had much lower speeds than estimated, and my neighbour tells me he gets speed tests of around 55meg, where as I get around 40meg, and I'm only 450 meters from my cabinet. I attempted to get BT to sort my line out, they did visit and check the internal wiring, but he was not allowed to do anything else, not even try the other pair of wires that comes into my house.

Bald_Eagle who wrote the logging scripts fought with BT via Plus Net for nearly a year to get his line sorted, eventually restoring it to near his original speed. He had various poor connections, and a faulty filter over that time.

I suspect I have a poor connection on my line, but my speed is descent so I can't be bothered with the hassle any more.

One option for you may be FTTP on demand latter this year, but it's not going to be cheap.

Standard User yarwell
(sensei) Thu 03-Jan-13 22:31:02
Print Post

Re: Fibre Boradband Poor performance What to do next ?


[re: The_Don_Wales] [link to this post]
 
Partly this is because I don’t understand how the line can be good enough for between 1.5 and 2.0 Mbps on Adsl2 and not get any better on fibre
The frequency plans BT are using are optimised for the target market of shorter sub-loops at high speed, it isn't optimal for your case with a long line.

VDSL2 Profile 17a has a 6dB lower power limit than 8b for example (and both are lower than ADSL), and the ANFP imposes power masks based on line length which may curtail the power delivered to your line on account of its length in order not to give crosstalk problems.

May be at least part of the story.

--

Phil

MaxDSL - goes as fast as it can and doesn't read the line checker first.

MaxDSL diagnostics
Standard User Chrysalis
(eat-sleep-adslguide) Thu 03-Jan-13 22:57:16
Print Post

Re: Fibre Boradband Poor performance What to do next ?


[re: R0NSKI] [link to this post]
 
I am in the same boat as you, I have seen a over 30% drop on attainable sync both up/down which doesnt sit right with me. But ultimately my line is very stable and I still have close to full sync over 70mbit so I havent bothered to report it.

I have tried a few things locally to try and rule out anything local but have concluded its crosstalk or someone swapped my pair.

The crc error bursts I originally had have stopped now on a ECI modem, so making the modem match the dslam vendor I think is important as that could on marginal lines affect DLM behaviour. I got the modem from ebay as I understand it I think openreach have a shortage of ECI modems currently.

BT Infinity 2 Since Dec 2012 - Estimate 65.9/20 - Attainable peak 110/36 - Current Sync 71/20
Standard User RobertoS
(sensei) Thu 03-Jan-13 23:29:29
Print Post

Re: Fibre Boradband Poor performance What to do next ?


[re: Chrysalis] [link to this post]
 
Because they've all somehow escaped to eBay.

My broadband basic info/help site - www.robertos.me.uk | Domains,website and mail hosting - Tsohost.
Connection - Plusnet Extra Fibre (FTTC). Sync ~ 54.0/14.9Mbps @ 600m. - BQM

"Where talent is a dwarf, self-esteem is a giant." - Jean-Antoine Petit-Senn.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Allergy information: This post was manufactured in an environment where nuts are present. It may include traces of understatement, litotes and humour.
Standard User The_Don_Wales
(newbie) Fri 04-Jan-13 08:57:49
Print Post

Re: Fibre Boradband Poor performance What to do next ?


[re: RobertoS] [link to this post]
 
Thank you all for your quick and informative responses.

@RobertoS

The modem is right next to the master socket and it looks just like the picture to which you linked. There are no extensions in the house so the things connected to the master socket are the modem and a cordless phone (which has two stations).

The wireless router is a Huawei HG533

There isn't a make or model identifier on the Openreach modem


I tried to run the speed test to which you linked and got the message

"The Performance Tester is currently unable to run a speed test for your broadband connection. Please try again shortly, however if this problem persists, raise the issue with your service provider."

I don't know whether there's something wrong with some database somewhere because when I've been checking on various ISP sites they haven't been able to tell me what my anticipated speed would be or whether I can get FTTC.
Standard User yarwell
(sensei) Fri 04-Jan-13 09:04:14
Print Post

Re: Fibre Boradband Poor performance What to do next ?


[re: The_Don_Wales] [link to this post]
 
if you restart the modem after unplugging the cordless phone from both mains and phone socket does it have any influence ?

--

Phil

MaxDSL - goes as fast as it can and doesn't read the line checker first.

MaxDSL diagnostics
Pages in this thread: 1 | 2 | 3 | (show all)   Print Thread

Jump to