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Standard User huwwatkins
(committed) Thu 25-Apr-13 23:14:38
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Concerned about FTTC connection


[link to this post]
 
Hi
I had my FTTC connection installed on Monday - it was done by a contractor, Quinn something or other. The installer did not seem very competent.

I was under the impression that most of the time the installer will jumper the pair in the PCP then come to your house. Mine came to my house first to put a tone tracer on my line "No way can I find your line in all those pairs"

20 minutes later he comes back. Installs Openreach modem, leaving it on the floor. Attempts to do a call back ( I assume to get some line info?) this fails and no further attempt is made. Modem is plugged in "if it syncs its fine" i'm told.

The phone line in this house hasn't been used for years and there is a junction box in the cubby hole out front that looks quite old. None of this was checked and no line tests were carried out. Can someone tell me if they should have been?



Am I justified in being rather unimpressed?

I was estimated to get 46meg. Initally the modem synced at around this mark ~44000. Within 24 hours the sync had changed to 44800. Less than another 24 hours it has dropped back to ~44000 and today its now synced at:

Downstream rate = 41677 Kbps

My attainable rate has started at 45800, went down to ~40,100 and s back up now at 48372.

DLM seems to have added some INP and delay where as before it was 0

INP: 3.00 0.00
PER: 2.54 8.36
delay: 8.00 0.00
OR: 75.56 30.61


Also my FEC has gone up a lot - is this anything to worry about?

My total line stats:

Link Power State: L0
Mode: VDSL2 Annex B
VDSL2 Profile: Profile 17a
TPS-TC: PTM Mode
Trellis: U:ON /D:ON
Line Status: No Defect
Training Status: Showtime
Down Up
SNR (dB): 6.2 6.2
Attn(dB): 0.0 0.0
Pwr(dBm): 13.4 3.3
VDSL2 framing
Path 0
B: 51 237
M: 1 1
T: 64 36
R: 12 16
S: 0.0397 0.9291
L: 12897 2187
D: 815 1
I: 64 127
N: 64 254
Counters
Path 0
OHF: 24774264 1538334
OHFErr: 39 92
RS: 2047144998 1455025
RSCorr: 3030767 121
RSUnCorr: 959 0

Path 0
HEC: 210 0
OCD: 7 0
LCD: 7 0
Total Cells: 769134334 0
Data Cells: 5284400 0
Drop Cells: 0
Bit Errors: 0 0

ES: 4605 332
SES: 88 0
UAS: 212 212
AS: 63192

Path 0
INP: 3.00 0.00
PER: 2.54 8.36
delay: 8.00 0.00
OR: 75.56 30.61

Bitswap: 7399 1068

Total time = 1 days 1 hours 9 min 1 sec
FEC: 3030767 546
CRC: 39 539
ES: 4605 332
SES: 88 0
UAS: 212 212
LOS: 10 0
LOF: 10 0
Latest 15 minutes time = 9 min 1 sec
FEC: 8312 5
CRC: 0 0
ES: 0 0
SES: 0 0
UAS: 0 0
LOS: 0 0
LOF: 0 0
Previous 15 minutes time = 15 min 0 sec
FEC: 8612 2
CRC: 0 2
ES: 0 2
SES: 0 0
UAS: 0 0
LOS: 0 0
LOF: 0 0
Latest 1 day time = 1 hours 9 min 1 sec
FEC: 398735 14
CRC: 4 6
ES: 1 6
SES: 0 0
UAS: 0 0
LOS: 0 0
LOF: 0 0
Previous 1 day time = 24 hours 0 sec
FEC: 2632032 145
CRC: 35 117
ES: 916 102
SES: 10 0
UAS: 21 21
LOS: 5 0
LOF: 5 0
Since Link time = 17 hours 33 min 11 sec
FEC: 3030767 121
CRC: 39 92
ES: 15 78
SES: 0 0
UAS: 0 0
LOS: 0 0
LOF: 0 0

Am I worrying over nothing here?

Thanks
Standard User yarwell
(sensei) Thu 25-Apr-13 23:25:24
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Re: Concerned about FTTC connection


[re: huwwatkins] [link to this post]
 
FEC counters tot up the errors that were fixed with fancy maths, the ones that weren't fixed are CRC errors so it's the latter that you don't want to see a lot of.

--

Phil

MaxDSL - goes as fast as it can and doesn't read the line checker first.

MaxDSL diagnostics
Standard User WWWombat
(fountain of knowledge) Fri 26-Apr-13 01:59:45
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Re: Concerned about FTTC connection


[re: huwwatkins] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by huwwatkins:
I had my FTTC connection installed on Monday - it was done by a contractor, Quinn something or other. The installer did not seem very competent.

I was under the impression that most of the time the installer will jumper the pair in the PCP then come to your house. Mine came to my house first to put a tone tracer on my line "No way can I find your line in all those pairs"

It isn't the normal way, but it does happen - and is the standard way of finding a pair if it really is hard to find... and they can be sometimes.

20 minutes later he comes back. Installs Openreach modem, leaving it on the floor. Attempts to do a call back ( I assume to get some line info?) this fails and no further attempt is made. Modem is plugged in "if it syncs its fine" i'm told.

Not ideal, but it is getting close to what is about to happen live, where you get to install the modem for yourself.

By itself, it doesn't mean you are going to suffer any extra problems. I've had engineer's install FTTC twice, and while they *have* gone through the test process, they haven't actually gone and changed anything anywhere (save the original switch at the cabinet)..

The phone line in this house hasn't been used for years and there is a junction box in the cubby hole out front that looks quite old. None of this was checked and no line tests were carried out. Can someone tell me if they should have been?

So was this part of installation of the phone too? I'm surprised that no-one tested the line, and that it had the right number. Perhaps that doesn't happen so much any more - others will have to comment.

Am I justified in being rather unimpressed?

Certainly more unimpressed than impressed.

I was estimated to get 46meg. Initally the modem synced at around this mark ~44000. Within 24 hours the sync had changed to 44800. Less than another 24 hours it has dropped back to ~44000

Such small changes don't matter too much, but were the resync's caused by you manually doing something? Or automatically?

Otherwise, you'd normally expect there to be little change over the first 48 hours. Until...

and today its now synced at:

Downstream rate = 41677 Kbps

DLM will usually only intervene after 48 hours, so this is reasonable timing. You've lost less than 10%, so it isn't too bad.

My attainable rate has started at 45800, went down to ~40,100 and s back up now at 48372.

The first figure matches your original speed. Ironically, the attainable rate seems to go up a little when DLM adds interleaving & FEC - by about the same amount as the actual speed drops by. No problem with the third figure.

The drop of attainable to 40M is a bit more worrying, indicating some noise on the line that wasn't there at sync time (as the sync has never gone that low). The corresponding good news is that you must have stayed sync'd at the time.

DLM seems to have added some INP and delay where as before it was 0

INP: 3.00 0.00
PER: 2.54 8.36
delay: 8.00 0.00
OR: 75.56 30.61

INP of 3 and a delay of 8ms is a fairly common setting that DLM uses to turn on interleaving and FEC - treat it as a "standard level", and we've seen worse.

Also my FEC has gone up a lot - is this anything to worry about?

Yes - the FEC counter starts running as soon as DLM turns on interleaving alongside FEC.

This alone isn't a worry, but I understand your concern.

The question is what is happening to the CRC counter (or the OHFErr counter; same thing).

A level of 35 CRC in 24 hours isn't bad. If that is maintained, the level of interleaving/FEC isn't going to be made any worse.

The level of FEC is high enough, so DLM isn't going to be turning the interleaving off.

Am I worrying over nothing here?

How long has the cabinet been there, and orderable? If it has been there a while, then I'd be less worried. If it is new, and you're one of the first subscribers, I'd be more worried.

But either way, there isn't much you can do if things stay as they are, speed-wise, and everything stays stable.

If those resyncs were automatic, and if you continue to see more of them, and the speed jumps around some, then I'd report a fault - and mention the low standard of install.


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Standard User huwwatkins
(committed) Fri 26-Apr-13 09:40:12
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Re: Concerned about FTTC connection


[re: WWWombat] [link to this post]
 
Thanks for the replies - I appreciate the time taken. All the re-syncs were automatic.

The phone line was new (re-activated - previous occupant had VM) as part of the install but talktalk do things in stages so they activate the line and ADSL and then make you book the FTTC install after at which point they de-activate the ADSL.

One thing I have noticed is that while my line is quiet - after dialing a number I get a series of clicks before it rings (even 1471) I have never noticed this on any other line I've had.

Its a shame about the delay added - my pings are now worse than the ADSL2+ I had at my old place!
Standard User RobertoS
(sensei) Fri 26-Apr-13 17:46:24
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Re: Concerned about FTTC connection


[re: huwwatkins] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by huwwatkins:
Thanks for the replies - I appreciate the time taken. All the re-syncs were automatic.
So how are you managing to get router stats tongue ?

My broadband basic info/help site - www.robertos.me.uk | Domains,website and mail hosting - Tsohost.
Connection - Plusnet UnLim Fibre (FTTC). Sync ~ 54.2/15.2Mbps @ 600m. - BQM

"Where talent is a dwarf, self-esteem is a giant." - Jean-Antoine Petit-Senn.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Allergy information: This post was manufactured in an environment where nuts are present. It may include traces of understatement, litotes and humour.
Standard User StephenTodd
(committed) Fri 26-Apr-13 17:56:27
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Re: Concerned about FTTC connection


[re: RobertoS] [link to this post]
 
how are you managing to get router stats
If you have an HG612 it is easy to unlock and get the stats. Lots of threads on this forum.

http://huaweihg612hacking.wordpress.com/about/ is the best place to start.

--
Moved (with trepidation turned relief) to BT Infinity 2 for upload speed. Happy BE user for several years.

Edited by StephenTodd (Fri 26-Apr-13 17:56:50)

Standard User BatBoy
(legend) Fri 26-Apr-13 18:03:18
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Re: Concerned about FTTC connection


[re: StephenTodd] [link to this post]
 
lol


__________________________________________________________________________The back pedalling starts here__________________
Standard User RobertoS
(sensei) Fri 26-Apr-13 18:20:18
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Re: Concerned about FTTC connection


[re: StephenTodd] [link to this post]
 
Try re-reading my post smile.

My broadband basic info/help site - www.robertos.me.uk | Domains,website and mail hosting - Tsohost.
Connection - Plusnet UnLim Fibre (FTTC). Sync ~ 54.2/15.2Mbps @ 600m. - BQM

"Where talent is a dwarf, self-esteem is a giant." - Jean-Antoine Petit-Senn.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Allergy information: This post was manufactured in an environment where nuts are present. It may include traces of understatement, litotes and humour.
Standard User Zarjaz
(knowledge is power) Fri 26-Apr-13 19:27:15
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Re: Concerned about FTTC connection


[re: huwwatkins] [link to this post]
 
I was under the impression that most of the time the installer will jumper the pair in the PCP then come to your house. Mine came to my house first to put a tone tracer on my line "No way can I find your line in all those pairs"

I will nearly always go to the premises first, have a quick chat, then apply a tone before going to the cabinet. It makes life a lot simpler, and if you have ever seen inside these cabs, some can be a tad tricky.

I note that you are with Talk Talk for this, it is more than likely that the only telephone number given on the task notes was your mobile, then line being referred to as LLTH0123456 or some such, all this can slow the job down, by putting a tone on, the installer knows for sure they are on the right pairs.
20 minutes later he comes back. Installs Openreach modem, leaving it on the floor. Attempts to do a call back ( I assume to get some line info?) this fails and no further attempt is made. Modem is plugged in "if it syncs its fine" i'm told.

The modem really ought to be wall mounted, thats just laziness.

The 'call back', an Eclipse test, should return two texts, one (hopefully) saying the line tests OK, and another saying the VDSL tests OK with associated up and down sync rates.

This is one of my bugbears with these guys, if an Openreach bod has to install VDSL, they have a mandatory instruction to have the line pass an end to end pair quality test, and a scripted VDSL closeout test, both these are uploaded after the task and are visible to both Openreach and the CP, oh and THEN do an Eclipse test. If the pair is iffy, they have to fix it there and then. If something wiring wise looks dubious, it's always worth taking a quick look, if there is a fault reported against the service within the 1st 28 days, the installer gets an ELF (early life failure) one of the many stats they are measured by.

The contractors have none of this to do. It has been asked why these guys can do 8 jobs a day, and Openreach only 4, go figure. False economy in my book, no one appears to realise how much time and money Openreach waste clearing up after these guys work, usually star wiring left in situ, extensions teed before the NTE, etc. Thats not to mention the installs they throw back in the pot for some trumped up excuse. Quality.

Never mind, self install VDSL on its way soon, so instead of clearing up after these guys, Openreach can be charging the CP's when their engineers have to go sort out the mess the punters have made. wink

Standard User StephenTodd
(committed) Fri 26-Apr-13 19:31:19
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Re: Concerned about FTTC connection


[re: Zarjaz] [link to this post]
 
Try re-reading my post
Whoops, sorry. Actually, I read the post -- I just didn't read who wrote it.

--
Moved (with trepidation turned relief) to BT Infinity 2 for upload speed. Happy BE user for several years.
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