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Standard User jerrym
(newbie) Thu 27-Feb-14 21:30:01
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Fibre Enabled or not


[link to this post]
 
Connecting Devon And Somerset have recently published the next phase of their fibre infrastructure deployment in the form of a map and post code information. The map showed the village I live in as live by July and the post code checker showed my post code and cabinet live by July as well.

Great I thought we are going to get an uplift in speed (currently 1.5MBps), but given distance from cabinet (4km) I began to wonder what this data actually meant so I e-mailed. The response was that the information simply indicates that post code x on cab y is fibre enabled.

My understanding is that the line length will preclude us from being placed onto an FTTC service - is this correct?

As such I think it is a bit rich that they classify this as fibre enabled.

They cannot provide any information on whether the village will feature in any future phases which is so frustrating.

I also wonder how they will ever judge/measure the success of the Programme. The original forecast was based on modelling and at the point they commit to deployment they have no idea of speeds that individual lines will receive and say it is too much work to compile this info from ISPs. Presumably they apply some modelling. Once live I assume the same logic around the amount of work required to collect actual data will be too great and so more modelling will be used. If they use the same models how do they actually know what they have really delivered and whether they have met the objectives
Administrator MrSaffron
(staff) Thu 27-Feb-14 22:50:59
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Re: Fibre Enabled or not


[re: jerrym] [link to this post]
 
Unlikely to see a speed boost and checker may not actually offer you FTTC

Has your postcode being confirmed as FTTC, a one in a million it might get FTTP which won't be distance limited

With targets that are not 100% then they may just stick you in the final few %

Andrew Ferguson, andrew@thinkbroadband.com
www.thinkbroadband.com - formerly known as ADSLguide.org.uk
The author of the above post is a thinkbroadband staff member. It may not constitute an official statement on behalf of thinkbroadband.
Standard User Zarjaz
(knowledge is power) Thu 27-Feb-14 22:51:51
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Re: Fibre Enabled or not


[re: jerrym] [link to this post]
 
If you really are 4km from your cabinet, then yes, it won't work for you.

What are you current line stats from your ADSL service ?


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Standard User jerrym
(newbie) Fri 28-Feb-14 07:11:12
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Re: Fibre Enabled or not


[re: Zarjaz] [link to this post]
 
The line length to the exchange is 5km (BT have told me this in the past). Current stats:

PI/VCI 0/38
Type PPPoA
Modulation ITU-T G.992.1
Latency type Interleaved
Noise margin (Down/Up) 6.3 dB / 13.0 dB
Line attenuation (Down/Up) 54.0 dB / 31.5 dB
Output power (Down/Up) 17.3 dBm / 12.7 dBm
More Details

Downstream 1,696 Kbps
Upstream 448 Kbps

The line length to the cab is definitely going to be over 3.5km and I would suspect over 4km given the location of the cab vs location of my house to the exchange.

Connecting D & S have said that we are going to be FTTC enabled and there are no plans to roll out FTTP within the current phase of deployment. BT show the exchange as FTTC/P, but Connecting D & S will not say whether there is any plan to roll out FTTP to the village or not.
Administrator MrSaffron
(staff) Fri 28-Feb-14 07:55:51
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Re: Fibre Enabled or not


[re: jerrym] [link to this post]
 
You potentially should be faster

http://www.coolwebhome.co.uk/calc/index.php?param=RG...

Have you checked speeds at the the test socket

Andrew Ferguson, andrew@thinkbroadband.com
www.thinkbroadband.com - formerly known as ADSLguide.org.uk
The author of the above post is a thinkbroadband staff member. It may not constitute an official statement on behalf of thinkbroadband.
Standard User WWWombat
(fountain of knowledge) Fri 28-Feb-14 12:13:13
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Re: Fibre Enabled or not


[re: jerrym] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by jerrym:
My understanding is that the line length will preclude us from being placed onto an FTTC service - is this correct?

Yes, you will be too far. The signal for superfast speeds runs out anywhere between 2km and 3km from the cabinet.

As such I think it is a bit rich that they classify this as fibre enabled.

You might be fibre-enabled, but you won't be classed as receiving superfast speeds.
BDUK, and even politicians, are now trying to be clear on this front.

Take, for example, this debate in parliament. OK, that is about North Yorkshire (and they sure know how to waffle) but it very much shows that they are now trying to be clear.

By itself, "being clear" won't bring you faster speeds from the cabinet in the village. But it will make politicians understand what needs to be done in the later phases, and what to do with the round-2 funding.

They cannot provide any information on whether the village will feature in any future phases which is so frustrating.

That's the rub - and it is indeed frustrating.

Most BDUK projects work on a number of phases (see the document I link to below), and the later phases just aren't known well enough for them to give details.

In addition, the early phases are almost entirely about deployment of FTTC. If there is going to be any augmentation of an area that has FTTC deployed, but still has people unserved, then that is going to be a very late phase. There's a good chance it will be left to the round 2 funding, which is only just getting started. And there's a reasonable chance that it won't get included.

BT are starting to talk about options that get superfast speeds deeper into the network, but I wouldn't hold your breath on actually seeing them soon.

Remember - BT and the councils can probably hit their 90% target by just adding FTTC cabinets, and largely ignoring the lines that are still too long. To hit the later 95% targets, they need to go deeper, and serve properties in smaller clusters (perhaps groups of 30-40 properties). But if your property is more isolated than this, then you are in the final 5%, and you probably depend on the 2018 solution. That is likely to be wireless- or satellite-based.

I also wonder how they will ever judge/measure the success of the Programme. The original forecast was based on modelling and at the point they commit to deployment they have no idea of speeds that individual lines will receive and say it is too much work to compile this info from ISPs. Presumably they apply some modelling. Once live I assume the same logic around the amount of work required to collect actual data will be too great and so more modelling will be used. If they use the same models how do they actually know what they have really delivered and whether they have met the objectives


As you've seen, the distinction between merely being enabled, and actually having access to superfast speeds, is well understood - and the measures of success are limited to those that actually get superfast.

BDUK, Councils and BT are aware that the coverage data at the start is based on models, and that they refine that data as they both do more surveys *and* perform the deployment.

The picture describing this can be seen on pages 19-21 of the PDF here: BDUK "extending superfast" industry day.

Your situation is very much the kind of place they need to understand as the models turn into reality, and as they figure out how to turn "fibre-enabled but too far to get superfast speeds" into "fibre-enabled with superfast speeds".
Administrator MrSaffron
(staff) Fri 28-Feb-14 12:34:09
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Re: Fibre Enabled or not


[re: WWWombat] [link to this post]
 
Or we could have spent a few million developing the models and verifying provider supplied data smile

Which would of course added time to the projects as well as cost.

Andrew Ferguson, andrew@thinkbroadband.com
www.thinkbroadband.com - formerly known as ADSLguide.org.uk
The author of the above post is a thinkbroadband staff member. It may not constitute an official statement on behalf of thinkbroadband.
Standard User jerrym
(newbie) Fri 28-Feb-14 14:15:11
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Re: Fibre Enabled or not


[re: MrSaffron] [link to this post]
 
We have tried many things to increase the speed and it does connect at around the 1.8MBps level, but I have never seen it over 2MBps. The line length is about 5km and the BT wholesale suggests a range of 1 to 3.5 so we are definitely at the low end. The SNR changes quite a bit over the course of a day from high 6 to low 5 and can drop below 5 sometimes.

I haven't tried the master for a while as we have an Openreach fitted filtered faceplate. Openreach have visited several times to try and improve the speed to no avail. Most of my neighbours seem to get about the same speed so I think it is a reflection of the line length/quality. Openreach replaced several km of cable a few years ago to improve broadband within the village but this resulted in a slight drop in speed for us. This may be just because there are more broadband connections and therefore more crosstalk.

Our voice line doesn't seem quite right to me as the calls are always very faint, but again I have reported this and the response is always that the line tests ok. Could this be a reflection of line length?
Standard User WWWombat
(fountain of knowledge) Fri 28-Feb-14 14:16:33
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Re: Fibre Enabled or not


[re: MrSaffron] [link to this post]
 
That would depend on whether the models could be improved, or whether the limiting factor is really knowledge on the ground.

Certainly the actual physical location of the FTTC cabinet makes quite a difference to the coverage area - potentially reducing range by up to 100m.

I do wonder if they make any physical measurements at the cabinet during the survey period, attempting to classify some or all of the loop lengths.
Standard User flipdee
(regular) Fri 28-Feb-14 22:07:30
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Re: Fibre Enabled or not


[re: MrSaffron] [link to this post]
 
Tried an iplate?
I have seen a line in exactly this situation, except hilariously enough bt let my friend order infinity.
1.9 downstream sync, doesn't work, even with hacked modem, better firmware blob for long lines.
Being cheeky and trying the connection 20m closer to the cabinet.
Basically without a speed limit imposed on a third party router of 0.6Mbps the latency hits 1sec and everything goes pear shaped.
As I've suggested to others, it may seem extreme, but do you know anyone within line of sight who is closer to the cabinet?
Cheers,
flipdee
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