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Standard User flipdee
(member) Sat 29-Mar-14 19:59:33
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Money Money Money


[link to this post]
 
Would be funny, especially if your BT and your laughing at how easy it is to generate cash from bduk.
BT FTTC Money
Thoughts?
This one's probably been discussed before but interesting how I've only heard people really talk about >45k for a cabinet but they once cost 11k?
Whistleblower.

Edited by flipdee (Sat 29-Mar-14 20:00:34)

Administrator MrSaffron
(staff) Sun 30-Mar-14 11:10:23
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Re: Money Money Money


[re: flipdee] [link to this post]
 
If price really is £11k for physical can, power, duct clearance, fibre runs then the every cabinet in the UK could be done for just under £1 billion.

It is possible to cost it e.g.

Cabinets that arrive in box with MSAN installed (delivery cost with small crane lorry)
2 days to dig and make good the aggregation node in footway (2mx1mx1m)
Removal and disposal of spoil from new holes
1 day to install cabinet plinth
1 day to install cabinet
2 days to link to power
Cost of power link from UKPN or whoever
Time to blow fibre through ducting to handover node
Time/roadworks for clearing blockages
Traffic light hire fees
1 day to install copper pairs between cabs
1 day to wire in copper pairs between cabinets
Final commissioning
Time for original planning process

Andrew Ferguson, andrew@thinkbroadband.com
www.thinkbroadband.com - formerly known as ADSLguide.org.uk
The author of the above post is a thinkbroadband staff member. It may not constitute an official statement on behalf of thinkbroadband.
Standard User flipdee
(member) Sun 30-Mar-14 11:14:06
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Re: Money Money Money


[re: MrSaffron] [link to this post]
 
But there is what it "costs" to do, and what it costs as per the BT price list?
Or do they apply their price list to BDUK cabinets?


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Administrator MrSaffron
(staff) Sun 30-Mar-14 11:24:24
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Re: Money Money Money


[re: flipdee] [link to this post]
 
Ignore the BT price lists and cost what it would cost to pay a persons salary to do the various parts.

Plenty of firms installing stuff on pavements to mean that someone somewhere has a good feel for the figures rather than what a large inefficient with regulated pricing charges.

There are also the Rutland Telecom and Digital Region accounts that could add to the debate.

Is the creation of handover node facilities allowed to be included in the pricing?

Andrew Ferguson, andrew@thinkbroadband.com
www.thinkbroadband.com - formerly known as ADSLguide.org.uk
The author of the above post is a thinkbroadband staff member. It may not constitute an official statement on behalf of thinkbroadband.
Standard User WWWombat
(fountain of knowledge) Tue 01-Apr-14 18:35:07
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Re: Money Money Money


[re: flipdee] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by flipdee:
Thoughts?


Every time I read an article on Ian's site, I find the text to be a sequence of bad assumptions, and technical inaccuracies. It is funny how these fallacies link together to reach a conclusion he wants to reach anyway... but it always seems to be a mountain built out of a molehill, built on shifting sands.

I find that in almost every article, I could tear apart virtually every paragraph. Sometimes I even feel the need to leave a comment doing so.

But then I read the comments. The population of the blog don't appear to be much interested in the truth, or in debate. They don't appear to be interesting in engineering detail. They just want to build the molehill higher at every possibility, built on personal agendas.

For example, in that article, and others, he regularly states that Openreach is the division responsible for the "network infrastructure" of BT. Unfortunately, he always fails to note that it is only the access network: The voice exchanges, exchange-based DSLAMs and MSANs, and core network infrastructure/transmission infrastructure all belong to other divisions.

That means he misses any spending related to BT Wholesale, for example, so the cost of backhaul from fibre head-ends will be missing from his analysis. The cost of the external contractors for the submarine links being installed as part of the Scottish rollout is at least 20% of the HIE project, and BT's internal component will add more. Missed entirely. IIRC, BT expect the core network to handle 5x as much data over the next few years, presumably mostly generated through expanded takeup of fibre.

Another example is seen regularly, with a wilful desire to confuse line lengths when talking about VDSL2 speed. His latest article, for instance, puts one graph (the distribution of exchange line lengths) next to a graph of speed vs distance for VDSL2 (so obviously cabinet line-length). Is the difference clarified? No. Is there even a need for exchange line-lengths in the article? No. Does it appear like a deliberate attempt to fudge? It looks that way to me.

The whole site (both articles and comments) seem to revolve around the belief that "long lines" (meaning long exchange lines) always equates to slow speeds. That being rural means a long exchange line and a slow speed. The latest article is even worse - taking quotes from the recent "Digital Business First" document that are patently useless: "large areas of the UK ... 10 million homes and businesses ... speeds of 2 and 24Mbps ... These "have nots" are being left to languish in the slow lane indefinitely." There are so many ways to criticise that one paragraph, yet Ian chooses not to do so, but instead to highlight it.

On the whole, his articles repeat quotes from dubious sources, and sets out to criticise BT. He never once critiques the flaws in the sources he uses, even when he uses them in sensible ways.

Somewhere in there are probably one or two valid, decent, points. But they're coated in so much drivel that I find I cannot trust him. And nowhere more so than the subject of money.

In the sidebar, Ian says he depends on the words he writes to put bread on the table. I worry for the health of his family...

but interesting how I've only heard people really talk about >45k for a cabinet but they once cost 11k?

Having read some of the PAC report this afternoon, I think they're comparing apples with pears there, but it isn't obvious. When the "Ireland" cabinet is discussed, the £11k number is dismissed as "cabinet only" - suggesting that the other numbers are for something more than the cabinet.

The highest costs in the graph's on Ian's site seems to be for £30k, and the annotations describe this as an orphan cab at ELO rural exchanges.

I believe this refers to exchanges that have no PCP cabinets, and consist of EO lines only, so the cost must include the work to retro-fit a PCP into the copper wiring, and then add a fibre twin to the setup.

Adding the PCP is probably quite a labour-intensive, and therefore expensive, job.
Standard User XRaySpeX
(eat-sleep-adslguide) Tue 01-Apr-14 19:00:41
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Re: Money Money Money


[re: flipdee] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by flipdee:
your BT
It's not mine! I sold it to private shareholders years ago.

1999: Freeserve 48K Dial-Up => 2005: Wanadoo 1 Meg BB => 2007: Orange 2 Meg BB => 2008: Orange 8 Meg LLU => 2010: Orange 16 Meg LLU => 2011: Orange 20 Meg WBC
Standard User flipdee
(member) Tue 01-Apr-14 19:26:04
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Re: Money Money Money


[re: XRaySpeX] [link to this post]
 
Haha, XraySPeX, you are correct, that's what I get for swyping on a phone with screen filter on.
But the funny thing is, with all this public money being spent with BT, it's probably closer to being "yours" since the privatisation?
WWWombat, very valid post, I think there is somewhere in the middle of all these arguments but how to actually get there is the tricky bit.
I still wonder will there be a large wooha at the end of the BDUK business with politicians saying, erm, is this what we agreed to and BT saying, yes, tough luck, you'll need a few more million to finish the job thank you very much.
Standard User colic
(fountain of knowledge) Wed 02-Apr-14 00:49:49
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Re: Money Money Money


[re: flipdee] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by flipdee:
Would be funny, especially if your BT and your laughing at how easy it is to generate cash from bduk.
BT FTTC Money
Thoughts?
This one's probably been discussed before but interesting how I've only heard people really talk about >45k for a cabinet but they once cost 11k?
Whistleblower.


Any article that uses such bad grammar (slang) as the below cannot be taken seriously and comparing apples with pears wow!


This suggests that of the billion quid a year that

Hang on a sec. BT says it will invest £1.4bn to cover more than 90% of the population


But I would say this tops it off comparing the work of mobile operators to fibre???

To put that into perspective, Vodafone plans to spend £900m this year to bring its network up to speed with 4G/LTE technology and 98% national indoor coverage. Mobile rival EE spent £606m in 2012 and another £583m in 2013.
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