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Standard User GarySN
(newbie) Tue 03-Jun-14 20:51:06
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FTTC availability question


[link to this post]
 
I'm looking at buying a house, and one of the criteria for us is availability of FTTC. I don't have a number to search on, but obviously an address, which yields the results below. Does the fact that there is no mention of FTTC mean it's not coming to this cabinet?

Available ProductsDownstream Line Rate(Mbps)Upstream Line Rate(Mbps)Downstream Range(Mbps)Availability Date
Featured Products
WBC ADSL 2+ Up to 2.5 -- 1 to 4 Available
WBC ADSL 2+ Annex M Up to 2.5 Up to 0.5 1 to 4 Available
ADSL Max Up to 2 -- 1 to 3.5 Available
WBC Fixed Rate 1 -- -- Available
Fixed Rate 1 -- -- Available
Other Offerings
Fibre Multicast -- -- -- Available
Copper Multicast -- -- -- Available
Standard User Zarjaz
(knowledge is power) Tue 03-Jun-14 21:25:39
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Re: FTTC availability question


[re: GarySN] [link to this post]
 
That doesn't sound promising, and slow speeds on ADSL as well !

Standard User wolf359
(committed) Tue 03-Jun-14 21:27:11
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Re: FTTC availability question


[re: GarySN] [link to this post]
 
Check to see if it's in a BDUK area as they don't show on the checker until they're ready to accept orders

Sky broadband MAX

The force may be with them, but it won't prevent their assimilation


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Standard User GarySN
(newbie) Tue 03-Jun-14 22:06:05
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Re: FTTC availability question


[re: wolf359] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by wolf359:
Check to see if it's in a BDUK area as they don't show on the checker until they're ready to accept orders
New to this. How do I do that?

Edited by GarySN (Wed 04-Jun-14 08:00:47)

Standard User ccxo
(fountain of knowledge) Tue 03-Jun-14 22:57:57
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Re: FTTC availability question


[re: GarySN] [link to this post]
 
Which county is the property located?

Each county has its own broadband project, they will be able to say if the property is part of the rollout- alternatively you can look at the high level maps to see if the area is part of the projects deployment.

Orange BB 5856/448
Standard User GarySN
(newbie) Wed 04-Jun-14 07:45:28
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Re: FTTC availability question


[re: ccxo] [link to this post]
 
The cabinet is connected to the exchange in Alton, Hampshire, which shows as Accepting Orders.
Standard User BatBoy
(legend) Wed 04-Jun-14 07:52:54
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Re: FTTC availability question


[re: GarySN] [link to this post]
 
It mentions
Fibre Multicast -- -- -- Available
which indicates the cabinet is fibre-enabled


______________________________________________________________________________________False_Authority_Syndrome__________________
Standard User GarySN
(newbie) Wed 04-Jun-14 07:59:27
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Re: FTTC availability question


[re: BatBoy] [link to this post]
 
That's what I thought, but I'm puzzled as to why there's no entry for FTTC.

If I go through the BT order process for the actual address, the site suggests neither Infinity nor Faster Broadband are available. I just want to know if that's a permanent situation or if I can expect it to arrive in the near future.
Standard User ian007jen
(member) Wed 04-Jun-14 08:49:59
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Re: FTTC availability question


[re: GarySN] [link to this post]
 
Re run the check and see if you get a cabinet number

All cabs except 10,15,16,17 and 31-36 fibre enabled.....if no cabinet number you could be exchange only.

Ian
Standard User GarySN
(newbie) Wed 04-Jun-14 09:30:38
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Re: FTTC availability question


[re: ian007jen] [link to this post]
 
Thanks for the detailed response. Cabinet number is 26, so should be fibre enabled, so why no entry for FTTC?
Standard User Ribble
(experienced) Wed 04-Jun-14 09:38:15
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Re: FTTC availability question


[re: GarySN] [link to this post]
 
Could it be too far? http://goo.gl/maps/JpfQV
Or an error
Standard User kasg
(fountain of knowledge) Wed 04-Jun-14 09:38:21
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Re: FTTC availability question


[re: GarySN] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by GarySN:
so why no entry for FTTC?

Cabinet full?

Kevin

plusnet Unlimited Fibre - sync approx 70000/20000 at 450m - BQM
Using OpenDNS
Domains and web hosting with TSOHOST
Standard User GarySN
(newbie) Wed 04-Jun-14 09:46:22
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Re: FTTC availability question


[re: Ribble] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by Ribble:
Could it be too far? http://goo.gl/maps/JpfQV
Or an error
If this is the right cabinet, it probably is too far. How do I tell? Shouldn't it have a number? It's 26 I'm looking for.
Standard User Ribble
(experienced) Wed 04-Jun-14 09:52:09
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Re: FTTC availability question


[re: GarySN] [link to this post]
 
That is 26 I linked to
Standard User GarySN
(newbie) Wed 04-Jun-14 09:57:45
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Re: FTTC availability question


[re: Ribble] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by Ribble:
That is 26 I linked to
Oh, OK. Thanks. Looks like that may be the answer then; too far away. How did you find it?
Standard User zom22
(member) Wed 04-Jun-14 10:05:52
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Re: FTTC availability question


[re: GarySN] [link to this post]
 
How close are to the cab?
If you( the proposed purchase) are so far away that you cannot get a half decent service it might not be shown as being available to you
Just my thoughts.......
Administrator MrSaffron
(staff) Wed 04-Jun-14 10:35:12
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Re: FTTC availability question


[re: BatBoy] [link to this post]
 
WRONG

The fibre multicast tells you that the exchange is offering FTTC services from one or more cabinets with the multicast service, it does not confirm it is available at the posters specific cabinet

The author of the above post is a thinkbroadband staff member. It may not constitute an official statement on behalf of thinkbroadband.
Standard User BatBoy
(legend) Wed 04-Jun-14 13:38:10
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Re: FTTC availability question


[re: MrSaffron] [link to this post]
 
Then why does it appear in the results for that cabinet?


______________________________________________________________________________________False_Authority_Syndrome__________________
Administrator MrSaffron
(staff) Wed 04-Jun-14 13:46:05
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Re: FTTC availability question


[re: BatBoy] [link to this post]
 
Because it is a flag set per exchange and the BT Wholesale checker does not hide it on a per cabinet basis

The author of the above post is a thinkbroadband staff member. It may not constitute an official statement on behalf of thinkbroadband.
Standard User nellisere
(newbie) Wed 04-Jun-14 13:56:41
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Re: FTTC availability question


[re: MrSaffron] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by MrSaffron:
Because it is a flag set per exchange and the BT Wholesale checker does not hide it on a per cabinet basis


I believe it is per cabinet. I am at EMBOSTO, and my cabinet, PCP64 only shows Copper Multicast, but the cabinet just down the road (PCP28) which does have a fibre twin, shows Fibre Multicast on the BT checker. I always thought if it shows Fibre Multicast but no Fibre speeds because the distance was too far to warrant good enough speeds.
Standard User BatBoy
(legend) Wed 04-Jun-14 13:59:24
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Re: FTTC availability question


[re: nellisere] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by nellisere:
I always thought if it shows Fibre Multicast but no Fibre speeds because the distance was too far to warrant good enough speeds.
That looks to be the case here, the cabinet is 1.9 miles away according to google


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Edited by BatBoy (Wed 04-Jun-14 14:01:43)

Standard User wolf359
(committed) Wed 04-Jun-14 15:30:56
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Re: FTTC availability question


[re: MrSaffron] [link to this post]
 
It's definitely per cabinet around here
I'm on merthyr cab 57 and mine shows fibre multicast and copper multicast since the fttc went AO, my daughter is on cab 18 same exchange and hers only shows copper multicast as her cab isn't yet AO for fttc

Sky Fibre Unlimited

The force may be with them, but it won't prevent their assimilation
Standard User GarySN
(newbie) Mon 09-Jun-14 14:55:32
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Re: FTTC availability question


[re: wolf359] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by wolf359:
Check to see if it's in a BDUK area as they don't show on the checker until they're ready to accept orders
OK, a glimpse of hope...

I've been to https://www3.hants.gov.uk/broadband/broadband-signup... to check the state of rural broadband in the area. When I go to enter the address for the property, I get the response below.

Can anybody confirm if this is good news???


Already available or due to be covered by commercial upgrades

You are in an area which either already receives superfast broadband or where there are commercial plans to provide it before 2015.

For this reason, you do not need to register with the faster broadband campaign.

If superfast broadband is available to you now, the box below will display the maximum predicted speed that you should be able to access. Because superfast broadband is delivered using different technology to ‘conventional’ broadband you will need to contact your Internet Service Provider (ISP) to find out how to take advantage of these speeds, or use a price comparison site to see what services are available.


Speeds currently available in your area

Superfast Broadband
Type: BT FTTC xDSL

Up to 24Mbps basic broadband
Type: BT 21CN xDSL
The maximum speed your line can support is 2.5Mbps.

Up to 8Mbps basic broadband
Type: BT xDSL
The maximum speed your line can support is 2Mbps.

Edited by GarySN (Mon 09-Jun-14 15:35:21)

Standard User Ribble
(experienced) Mon 09-Jun-14 16:16:14
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Re: FTTC availability question


[re: GarySN] [link to this post]
 
It dosnt change what you know already, you are connected to PCP with a fibre cab , but it appears your line is too long.
Standard User GarySN
(newbie) Mon 09-Jun-14 16:27:29
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Re: FTTC availability question


[re: Ribble] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by Ribble:
It dosnt change what you know already, you are connected to PCP with a fibre cab , but it appears your line is too long.
I don't understand. Its states that, "If superfast broadband is available to you now, the box below will display the maximum predicted speed that you should be able to access."

Since there is no figure shown, surely this falls into the category of, "...there are commercial plans to provide it before 2015."
Administrator MrSaffron
(staff) Mon 09-Jun-14 16:47:54
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Re: FTTC availability question


[re: GarySN] [link to this post]
 
No law saying they have to provide it to everyone yet, what is the counties target level?

The author of the above post is a thinkbroadband staff member. It may not constitute an official statement on behalf of thinkbroadband.
Standard User BatBoy
(legend) Mon 09-Jun-14 17:40:20
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Re: FTTC availability question


[re: GarySN] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by GarySN:
Since there is no figure shown, surely this falls into the category of, "...there are commercial plans to provide it before 2015."
To me it looks like it falls into the category of "you are too far away from the cabinet to get FTTC".


______________________________________________________________________________________False_Authority_Syndrome__________________
Standard User JimmyBoy
(committed) Mon 09-Jun-14 18:33:38
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Re: FTTC availability question


[re: GarySN] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by GarySN:
I don't have a number to search on, but obviously an address...

If the house has been previously occupied, try the Postcode Checker. Also try the addresses of neighbouring properties.
It is NOT unknown for the Openreach database to be hopelessly (and unforgivably) incorrect.

Example 1

Example 2

__________________________________________
Openreach FTTC - Sync'd @ ~80Mbps down/20Mbps up - STATIC IP Address!
Connected via IPCop V2.1.5 and a HUAWEI HG612 modem.
Returned to living in fear of DLM - Destructive Line Mismanagement!
SOLAR - 0129 on a SKY HD Box - As good now as they were on FM in the 1980s!

Edited by JimmyBoy (Mon 09-Jun-14 20:50:39)

Standard User equiton
(learned) Mon 09-Jun-14 21:41:18
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Re: FTTC availability question


[re: GarySN] [link to this post]
 
We are in an area which is treated as covered by existing or expected commercial coverage.
We are not going to get commercial coverage and are too far away to get the existing service.
The local BDUK project Digital Derbyshire will not look at the area because to them its already catered for so is not eligible for public funding. A catch 22 situation that is most likely going on all over the country. There are several villages in this area where this is going on.
There was one line in an email from Digital Derbyshire that implies the problem may be addressed at some point,
''This national programme has been developed centrally over a number of years, and has to be followed to receive the grant. There are known issues with the current programme, these are being considered centrally within BDUK, as there are many areas deemed as covered commercially that are over 1.6 kilometres from the serving cabinet, which is the distance that speeds begin to drop''
The current situation for us is that we are not included in any roll out plans until the end of 2016. without this problem been addressed by BDUK we will not receive any improvements through the landline network. You may well be in the same situation
Administrator MrSaffron
(staff) Tue 10-Jun-14 12:37:49
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Re: FTTC availability question


[re: equiton] [link to this post]
 
In short what you have is a limited amount of funding available, thus its cheaper to do another cabinet elsewhere than handle the 1 to 3% on each cabinet who get slow speeds or are too far from the cabinet at all.

Some cabinets are missing out at totally due to the spread of properties.

Each line is a just a number in a grander scheme and with limited money decisions are made to get the most bang per back overall.

The author of the above post is a thinkbroadband staff member. It may not constitute an official statement on behalf of thinkbroadband.
Standard User equiton
(learned) Tue 10-Jun-14 13:49:09
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Re: FTTC availability question


[re: MrSaffron] [link to this post]
 
The villages I am referring too are not just the odd few properties as would be expected. Our village is 160 properties and the other which is 3 miles away has 800 residents so 250-300 properties. Thats Weston on Trent where there are more properties connected to the cabinet that are too far away for FTTC than are close enough.With a quick scan of the map of Derbyshire I picked out other villages with exactly the same problem of, getting a very poor service but been considered commercially covered so public funding is not available.
I do not know if its a bang for buck decision or an oversight in the BDUK planning or BT just adding these to their properties passed numbers. For those connected via distant sub cabinets to commercially upgraded exchanges its a problem . A lot of the communities are unaware of this though and still think they will getting the improved service having been given the impression that the BDUK scheme was sorting out the rural broadband problem and it would just be really remote places that were missed..
Administrator MrSaffron
(staff) Tue 10-Jun-14 14:01:10
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Re: FTTC availability question


[re: equiton] [link to this post]
 
Okay so not just a handful but 160 is not a large village, and needs to be borne in mind when the target is

95% connected to a fibre based broadband capable line (i.e. any speed but via fibre (FTTC or P)

Our estimate for the %'age who will be superfast in the County is 84% and is based on every cabinet getting upgraded and the line lengths taken into account.

Estimated population for Derbyshire is 773,000 and I think around 380,000 premises. City of Derby could hit 95% superfast, the other bits of the county 81-82%.

So 19,000 premises with no option of a fibre based service (irrespective of speeds) means that plenty of small villages and clusters may miss out. 3.2% of the county if JUST FTTC is deployed are estimated to be 2 Mbps or slower by our figures.

An often overlooked fact is that the 90% Superfast Government target includes the cities.

So the question that needs to be answered is why should those properties benefit, versus others? And does that represent value for money - the key mantra from all parties at Westminster.

The author of the above post is a thinkbroadband staff member. It may not constitute an official statement on behalf of thinkbroadband.
Standard User equiton
(learned) Tue 10-Jun-14 15:41:37
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Re: FTTC availability question


[re: MrSaffron] [link to this post]
 
My difficulty was not that we would not get superfast broadband in these villages. It was the lack of information and misinformation. If I had not asked questions on here and got clear answers from yourself and others I would be like the rest of the village were, expecting superfast broadband in the near future funded by BDUK or BT.
I have no disagreements with what you are saying, I just wish there was more upfront information. A lot of the places that will miss out on BDUK funding are not remote hamlets but villages near large urban centres.
Administrator MrSaffron
(staff) Tue 10-Jun-14 15:46:37
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Re: FTTC availability question


[re: equiton] [link to this post]
 
Its easier to be the bearer of bad news when you are not linked with the project I guess.

Some councils are better are informing people than others and its not just broadband, councils are playing catch-up with the world of social media and providing information at a time when people no longer have to visit a dusty council basement to see a planning application.

As a general rule of thumb most of the BDUK work seems to be on cabinets serving 75 or more premises, but their phased roll-outs seem to start with the largest first in each area.

The author of the above post is a thinkbroadband staff member. It may not constitute an official statement on behalf of thinkbroadband.
Standard User equiton
(learned) Tue 10-Jun-14 16:33:08
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Re: FTTC availability question


[re: MrSaffron] [link to this post]
 
Yes the council here really did want to give out bad news. They could not grasp I was not making demands for a service, I just wanted accurate information.
This line about about BDUK i quoted was what i wanted the OP to see
''There are known issues with the current programme, these are being considered centrally within BDUK, as there are many areas deemed as covered commercially that are over 1.6 kilometres from the serving cabinet''
The village here and others may or may not be good bangs for bucks for the BDUK scheme but are not been considered whilst they are labelled '' existing or expected commercial coverage''
I do not know how exactly how they measure premises passed, but are these areas been counted in the 90% covered?
Administrator MrSaffron
(staff) Tue 10-Jun-14 16:43:26
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Re: FTTC availability question


[re: equiton] [link to this post]
 
BDUK does include a test for distance to a premise from the cabinet when announcing superfast figures, and probably not unlike what we are doing - see Wales news on front page.

The key is the wording used - fast fibre means anything from 0 to 80 Meg, Superfast should be 24 (or 30) Meg and faster.

The author of the above post is a thinkbroadband staff member. It may not constitute an official statement on behalf of thinkbroadband.
Standard User WWWombat
(fountain of knowledge) Tue 10-Jun-14 16:46:35
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Re: FTTC availability question


[re: GarySN] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by GarySN:
Can anybody confirm if this is good news???


No, it isn't good news.

In reply to a post by GarySN:
Already available or due to be covered by commercial upgrades

You are in an area which either already receives superfast broadband or where there are commercial plans to provide it before 2015.

In this statement, you are being (wrongly, naively) included in the "already available" part. There is no known solution, used by BT in their commercial rollout, that extends coverage of a cabinet that has already been upgraded to FTTC: you are most certainly not part of the commercial plans.

The problem you have is one with your local BDUK project, and the way they are choosing to go about marking areas as being commercially-covered, vs being within the intervention area.

Some BDUK projects are more naive (or simplistic, or lazy) than others, and your property is one of the borderline cases where such naivety often shows up...

When BT upgrade a cabinet to FTTC, the reality is that some lines on that cabinet will be too long, or too narrow, or a combination of both, to get VDSL2 service. Such properties then become a "difficulty" for any BDUK project and the postcode becomes an equivalent difficulty. Your property is one of these.

Unfortunately, BDUK projects work at different levels of knowledge; for example the Warwickshire project is one of the best, and I can recommend reading their FAQ page and their latest news:
http://www.cswbroadband.org.uk/whats-happening/lates...
http://www.cswbroadband.org.uk/the-project/frequentl...

To the CSW project, every house is individual: If it cannot receive superfast speeds, then it is part of their intervention area and eligible for something to be done. Houses that are too far from a commercial cabinet are included in this group.

If you lived in the CSW area, and contacted them to let them know of your situation, they would add your details to the list of "NGA white" areas to make you eligible again.

The CSW website also explains the other difficulty: They produce maps, but they only have to show details at a per-postcode level, rather than per-property. When postcodes have a mix of property coverage, the maps cannot convey the right level of detail.

A more naive project can act more simplistically, and label your property as covered because they don't take the cabinet distance into account, or because they only act at a complete postcode level. Or it may be that their website design is naive, but the project staff are not: If you contact your local BDUK project directly, you may get the naive response that you are covered, or a knowledgeable response like CSW.

Getting your house labelled by the BDUK project as "NGA white" is just the first step, but it is an important first step (especially with further phases and funding to come in the future).

Actually getting your house chosen to be included for further work will then become much more difficult, simply because the "easy" step (a simple FTTC cabinet) did not work for you. Any other solution is likely to be considerably more expensive (to the project), and, while the target is only 90% of the county, there are probably easier areas for them to target before they come back to your home.
Standard User equiton
(learned) Tue 10-Jun-14 17:32:07
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Re: FTTC availability question


[re: WWWombat] [link to this post]
 
That was really refreshing to read the CSW site after dealing with Digital Derbyshire.
Are there any tips for getting them to recognise the area as ''NGA White''

This is my correspondence with Digital Derbyshire so far,http://www.elvaston-parish-broadband.org/?page_id=40
Its long, tedious and full of my dreadful grammar
Standard User WWWombat
(fountain of knowledge) Tue 10-Jun-14 20:19:14
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Re: FTTC availability question


[re: equiton] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by equiton:
Our village is 160 properties and the other which is 3 miles away has 800 residents so 250-300 properties. Thats Weston on Trent where there are more properties connected to the cabinet that are too far away for FTTC than are close enough.


On village sizes:

The ONS has a definition of a "built-up area" (essentially clusters of land which are urban in nature) that places 95% of the population of England and Wales as living within such areas.

The smallest thing defined as a built-up area can be thought of as a circular urban area 500m across (or a square 450m across), and the two smallest such places come with a population of 100.

This definition is handy, because the coverage percentage matches up with the government's 2017 target, but BUA's are also likely to represent a clustered target for telecoms infrastructure.

The breakdown of these built-up areas (BUAs) show that:
- 95% live in settlements of 100 people or more,
- 94% live in settlements of 500+ people,
- 92% live in settlements of 1,500+ people,
- 82% live in settlements of 10,000+ people,
- 60% live in settlements of 100,000+ people,
- 30% live in settlements of 1,000,000+ people.

Using the standard multiplier of people per property (2.4), it seems that villages of around 4,000 properties are going to be well within the scope of a BDUK phase 1 project (ie one with a 90% target), while villages with 700 properties are likely to be outside the project.

A lot of the communities are unaware of this though and still think they will getting the improved service having been given the impression that the BDUK scheme was sorting out the rural broadband problem and it would just be really remote places that were missed..


With a 90% target, some people were always going to be missed out. And while individual locations will get different results, it wouldn't surprise me to see the boundary between the haves & have-nots of phase 1 being communities sized at around 700-800 homes.

When BDUK moves on to phase 2 (ie the 2017 target of 95%), you can probably expect cluster sizes in the range of 40-800 properties to be targeted.
Standard User equiton
(learned) Wed 11-Jun-14 00:06:18
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Re: FTTC availability question


[re: WWWombat] [link to this post]
 
Great breakdown of village sizes and population.
I think the BDUK areas that are not been up front about who is going to be missed are causing a problem.
if you only say something like this in your FAQ

''Is there a chance that despite the roll out of better broadband I still may not get access to it?

Some areas in Derbyshire are so geographically remote that superfast broadband will not be achievable for cost or technical reasons.

Derbyshire is working to achieve basic broadband speeds of 2Mbps across the county as a minimum.''


When I did the check on our village Doctors, University Lecturers, People who are running businesses from home, families etc were under the impression that the BDUK project was going to fund superfast Broadband by at the latest 2016. They actually had a meeting in the other village I mentioned Weston explaining how they were going to install the cabinets etc.
It took me months of effort to get Digital Derbyshire to say we were not included in their roll out plan. Part of the difficulty there was that they were misreading their own map.
I had worked out we were not going to get a service and looked at alternative solutions. It took less time & effort to arrange the alternative solution than get a clear answer from the BDUK project
It turned out we are fortunately nicely in the Line of sight of a fixed wireless development for a school. Putting an antenna in the village helps the company doing that project and should provide a good service for a quite a few people.


For the long term we need to get out of this category of ''existing or expected commercial coverage'' Its how to do that I am now stuck on.
Standard User GarySN
(newbie) Wed 11-Jun-14 07:13:09
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Re: FTTC availability question


[re: WWWombat] [link to this post]
 
Thanks a lot for such a detailed response. This pretty much makes our decision not to buy this house. I'm surprised more is not made of these 'not-spots' as house prices must ultimately be affected.
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