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Standard User tbailey2
(member) Fri 20-Jun-14 21:52:34
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Bad Gel Crimps?


[link to this post]
 
Earlier I had a major hiccup on my line. I've said in the past that I can often see installs taking place on my cab by the fact that the line SNR margin or Speeds jump up and down momentarily but usually go back to what they were. A couple of you said this is likely due to a bad gel crimp on the d- or e-side in the cabinet being knocked around by a clumsy contractor!

This afternoon after the line had been up for 40+ days prior to this. it suffered badly from a glitch and in the process lost 10Mbps of d/l speed with the stats showing multiple LOS /LOF and ES (I've not had any LOS/LOF in 4 months 'till then) and the DLM appears to have been at work.There was also a mass of errored seconds for an hour to about 10 x normal

The DSLStats graphs llinked below show it clearly - plus the SNR margin jumped up when another disturbance temporariily cleared the bad connection a little later (and the interleave had also been dropped by about 300 but that was probably due anyway as the line had been performing well with few ES for the past month or so).

A BT Wholesale Speed Test shows the line as underperforming now (red result) at 32Mbps against a profile of 45Mbps (min at this profile should be 35Mbps).

SNR margin
Connection Speed

What's the best way of reporting this to plusnet as a line fault if that is in fact what it is please? Not affecting the telephone AFAIAA. I'm worried that at some point it'll disconnect completely and late on a Friday like now mad

The Live Stats in my sig show it quite well at the moment...

TIA

Tony
Hurstpierpoint, West Sussex SDHRSTP, Cab 4
Full Live Fibre Stats, Speed, ES, Ping etc

plusnet Unlimited Fibre 42 / 10Mbps @ 800m
HG612/Technicolor - All Homeplugs Exorcised

Edited by tbailey2 (Sat 21-Jun-14 08:21:48)

Standard User tbailey2
(member) Sat 21-Jun-14 11:23:59
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Re: Bad Gel Crimps?


[re: tbailey2] [link to this post]
 
Beginning to wonder if this current problem is maybe an HG 612 modem fault?

DSLstats is occasionally reporting No DSL Connection (not Modem Not Responding) when there are no events at the time in the stats total to indicate that. And also the stats say the line has only been up just over three hours now (11:10) when, again, there is no indication of anything happening on the graph since around 05:15 - and that does coincide with a glitch on the SNR margin graph. But no indication that the connection was lost or resynced.

The only thing between the modem and the faceplate is a 12" connector and it's a Mk 2 faceplate direct into the master socket with no extensions. The Hlog graph is flat.

I do have my own gel crimps outside in a BT Black Box on the wall about 10 feet away but these seem okay as I poked around for a couple of minutes amongst the black widow spiders without any apparent ill effects (and these are the chock block type gel filled connectors to the pair, the rest of the box is now redundant).

Edit: I could add that when the No DSL message occurs, it results in the browser hanging and not updating for a while as you might expect - but several times I have looked at the Technicolor router when this happens and there is no indication that anything is wrong (no red leds), The HG612 is a bit further way, need to look at that separately next time it happens.

Tony
Hurstpierpoint, West Sussex SDHRSTP, Cab 4
Full Live Fibre Stats, Speed, ES, Ping etc

plusnet Unlimited Fibre 42 / 10Mbps @ 800m
HG612/Technicolor - All Homeplugs Exorcised

Edited by tbailey2 (Sat 21-Jun-14 12:07:12)

Standard User tbailey2
(member) Mon 23-Jun-14 08:56:53
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Re: Bad Gel Crimps?


[re: tbailey2] [link to this post]
 
No one any suggestions?

The connection now has matching BT and plusnet profiles of 34Mbps, down from 45....

However, whenever presumably a spider wanders around the cab or a heavy lorry goes by, the SNR margin jumps up to +12db and the attainable Max goes to its previous value of 56Mbps! But only briefly. There are now so few errors at the current DLM settings, I'm tempted to poer off the modem for 5 mins and see what happens... Interleave is currently a lot lower than it ever has been.

Tony
Hurstpierpoint, West Sussex SDHRSTP, Cab 4
Full Live Fibre Stats, Speed, ES, Ping etc

plusnet Unlimited Fibre 42 / 10Mbps @ 800m
HG612/Technicolor - All Homeplugs Exorcised


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Standard User IranianGiraffe
(member) Mon 23-Jun-14 12:26:25
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Re: Bad Gel Crimps?


[re: tbailey2] [link to this post]
 
Hi tbailey2,

My line is pretty similar to yours, I started off at 53 and then in 2 quite big jumps dropped down to around 32meg that I have now.

I also get the attainable shoot up every so often and have been told also that it's likely to be a loose connection in cabinet. (tends to last between 15mins and 1hr normally)

With regards to DSLstats that's what happens when the line goes down with that program so your line is definitely going down when that happens, does the SNR drop off at all just before it happens, (I find the best way to see whats going on is on the SNRM per Band on the program), I have what looks like a HR fault on my line at the mo in that every now and then at least 1 of the upstream bands noise margin will plummet right down, and when the phone is in use it will either go down so low that it forces a disconnect and it will then connect again or even it wont even come back up at all until the handset is replaced.
As I said I had a similar issue with you in regards to speed drop and with my ISP any speed drop of 25% of more is an instant fault and openreach can be called out to look into it, I'm not sure if this applies to all ISP's as openreach agree that a speed drop of 25% in 1 go is a fault? or if it's just my ISP (AAISP) but you may want to check with yours.

Does your line use D2 band?, what happened with mine was that cross talk had increased from more connections at the cabinet and that inturn caused the Attenuation to go up and over the threshold and as such D2 band is no longer used and so I lost any speed I was getting from that band.

Regarding on if you should power off for 5mins, what is your attainable??, if it's only a little higher than what you have now and you have interleaving on your line then there is no point as you will just sync at the same speed as interleaving is using that other amount for error correction.
My example is my line is currently at 30meg ish, my attainable is 36meg but I currently have interleaving applied on my line and so it's using that extra for error corrections, when interleaving goes from my line I get around 33meg as I get all the speed it can give me (for some reason you get half the extra between your current and attainable back but no-one knows why for sure) so if that's also the case with your line then there is no point as your slightly higher attainable is being used for interleaving and you will only get that back if interleaving is removed and restarting your modem yourself will not get rid of that, infact it will do the opposite and think the line is unstable and restart the process of getting interleaving turned off.
Does anything happen when you use the phone line at all?, like I said I started off with the same issue as you but it's not get worse due to what looks like a HR (high resistance) fault and I can see this clearly when the phone is used (noise margins plummet).
Standard User tbailey2
(member) Mon 23-Jun-14 13:17:57
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Re: Bad Gel Crimps?


[re: IranianGiraffe] [link to this post]
 
Thanks for the observations! When I first had my line I had an attainable of 62 and actual of 56Mbps! However, there's a standing external noise level that caused very high ES and SES counts and the DLM jumped in after a few days to take the attainable to 54 and actual to about 49 initially.

I've had the sudden jumps problem for months, usually just a short hiccup in SNR margin and maybe a loss or increase of 0.5 db or so and recovers quickly. Phone usage makes no difference and never has done. Modem stats show no resync count at all.

In 4 months I've never had the line drop other than when I occasionally power off the modem for whatever reason - it had been up for 40 days at a 54Mbps attainable and around 42 actual (high interleave due to the standing noise level) until last week when this happened.

The 56 attainable is still there while currently it's 42 - look at the graphs in my sig. The graph linked HERE shows it happening originally and a couple of later attainable spikes. The ONE HERE shows shows the spikes in attainable that have happened every so often over the past few days and there's a 6db increase in SNRM at the same time. Quiet today so far though.

I'm guessing that the DLM looked at the very high ES count for an hour so so (it's currently running very low counts and normally runs below 10/hour anyway with the previous DLM settings) and clobbered it. I've noticed before that the DLM appears to 'sit' on changes and do nothing until it has to for whatever reason.If, however, you preempt it by powering the modem off and on with a short rest period, it will implement those changes.

Now, assuming that the HR is not permanently affecting it - going by the max attainable that is still there under the right conditions, then I MIGHT get some speed back. I did in fact power/off/on the modem at 13:00 on Saturday 21st but it had little effect, all's I could sport was the interleave dropping by 2 or so (it's currently about 200 lower than it was .when the attainable was 54Mbps. For me anything above 20 down is fine - it's the 8 or more upload I need for large PDFs...

I am very hesitant to report this as the fault it probably is in case, having seen some horror stories, I end up with no connection at all due to botched BT work. That's why I'm trying to set out a wireless repeater link to a neighbour as backup at the moment!

For the moment I'll leave it all alone, maybe the DLM will look favourably at the very low ES counts and do something nice for a change wink

Tony
Hurstpierpoint, West Sussex SDHRSTP, Cab 4
Full Live Fibre Stats, Speed, ES, Ping etc

plusnet Unlimited Fibre 42 / 10Mbps @ 800m
HG612/Technicolor - All Homeplugs Exorcised
Standard User IranianGiraffe
(member) Mon 23-Jun-14 16:19:58
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Re: Bad Gel Crimps?


[re: tbailey2] [link to this post]
 
Hi,

How often does your attainable spike back up to 54meg etc, if it's only for a very short time like in the graphs then if it's like what happened to mine then I'm not sure you will get it back as that's exactly what mine does although mine last for 1hr or so before returning to normal. (normal ended up being the lower figure for mine)
When I explained to the engineers that I had 50+ before and it dropping so much they said it was more than likely due to cross talk and the fact I'm 750-800m away from the cabinet (with it being partly aluminium) and 30 was all I could really expect.

http://i206.photobucket.com/albums/bb242/Master_Yoda...

as you can see the attainable spike upwards was there for a while (it actually lasted about 1hr) before it returned to it's normal rate. (normal rate now being the lower number)

Going by your graph and the attainable being around 6meg or so higher than actual I think you could gain about another 3meg if the DLM decides to turn off interleaving.

Do you have the graphs info of your line before you had the issue?, the overall power and the line attenuations of the bands along with a pic of the bit loading tones graph will give us a better overall picture if cross talk has kicked in.

http://i206.photobucket.com/albums/bb242/Master_Yoda...

for instance on this one you can see a clear V like shape in the big red download tones cutting out a big chunk of my download bits, resulting in lower speed etc, this is caused by a power cutback , and was done to minimise cross talk with other ADSL signals.
Standard User tbailey2
(member) Mon 23-Jun-14 17:30:36
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Re: Bad Gel Crimps?


[re: IranianGiraffe] [link to this post]
 
Yes, I have most every graph and text file I recorded from 25th Feb - about 17,000 of them!

It only goes up for a short time, minutes at most. But it's been the weekend and no one has been near the cabinet I guess. No sign of anything today (so far) as you can see.

The point I do not understand is that this happened very suddenly after 40 days of no problems running at 56 or so attainable and ES counts of under 10 per hr for a long time - WWWombat thinks that counts like that are well below what would cause the DLM to intervene - until there was a very high burst of ES 100 + in 15 mins and a recorded 12 LOS (but no resyncs). The spike looks like this:

Latest 15 minutes time = 4 min 37 sec
FEC:		2044		0
CRC:		0		0
ES:		0		0
SES:		0		0
UAS:		0		0
LOS:		0		0
LOF:		0		0

Previous 15 minutes time = 15 min 0 sec
FEC:		65740		10
CRC:		5542		2
ES:		142		2
SES:		87		0
UAS:		32		32
LOS:		12		0
LOF:		10		0


And HERE is the ES graph for that day.

And that event lost 25% a little later of what has been steady speeds for over a month. I have watched them slowly decrease over time from 54 to 42 as connections get added.

Unless this is a new connection that has introduced pretty massive crosstalk of course but I still don't understand the burst if is crosstalk?

The trough in the Bit Loading has been there since day one after the DLM kicked in - but the earliest graph I have for that is 1st April HERE as didn't save them before then, the current one is in the live stats. The attainable at that point was about 60Mbps.and sync at 53 or so. Current BT estimate is 43Mbps so was pretty well on that.

I'd also be interested to know what WWWombat thinks please?

Anyway, our exchange is slated for native FTTP but not available yet. So will have to wait in hope if this isn't fixable!

Again, thanks for your thoughts.

Tony
Hurstpierpoint, West Sussex SDHRSTP, Cab 4
Full Live Fibre Stats, Speed, ES, Ping etc

plusnet Unlimited Fibre 42 / 10Mbps @ 800m
HG612/Technicolor - All Homeplugs Exorcised
Standard User Chrysalis
(legend) Mon 23-Jun-14 18:15:21
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Re: Bad Gel Crimps?


[re: IranianGiraffe] [link to this post]
 
yeah whats amusing is when my attinable was sporadically shooting up, BT considered that a fault, the fault been it was shooting up rather than "not staying up".

After I had an engineer visit in early 2013 (which was done because of nightime packetloss) these sporadic boosts in attainable stopped, the engineer claimed he didnt do anything.

In my case they lasted sometimes as short as 10-15 mins, other times they could last over the weekend. The change only ever happened during weekdays so it might shoot up or down mon-fri but would never jump up/down on a saturday or sunday which meant if the attainable was high on a saturday it was going to stay until monday at least.

Standard User IranianGiraffe
(member) Tue 24-Jun-14 11:41:17
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Re: Bad Gel Crimps?


[re: tbailey2] [link to this post]
 
Hi again,

Looking at your bitloading graph, it looks like your D3 band is no longer being used (no doubt due to attenuation going over the threshold) so that's where some of your speed would have gone.
You are also running old firmware for the modem as the bands have changed from what yours is using.

What is your power figures for the same period (especially before and after the drop), as the lowering of this will ultimately result in the lowering of speeds as well.
Standard User tbailey2
(member) Tue 24-Jun-14 13:30:31
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Re: Bad Gel Crimps?


[re: IranianGiraffe] [link to this post]
 
Thanks -can't do anything at the moment (200 miles away using Teamviewer). I'll dig out the power readings and I think D3 went months ago though. As regards firmware, last time I looked on Kitz it was still current so will have a look again. I have a spare HG612 I can flash to eliminate one other possibility.

Tony
Hurstpierpoint, West Sussex SDHRSTP, Cab 4
Full Live Fibre Stats, Speed, ES, Ping etc

plusnet Unlimited Fibre 42 / 10Mbps @ 800m
HG612/Technicolor - All Homeplugs Exorcised
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