General Discussion
  >> Fibre Broadband


Register (or login) on our website and you will not see this ad.


Pages in this thread: 1 | 2 | (show all)   Print Thread
Standard User Broadbean2
(learned) Fri 19-Feb-16 21:45:50
Print Post

Residential/Business Link to a PSBA Programme


[link to this post]
 
Hi, I live in West Wales and am connected to cab 3 on the Newcastle Emlyn exchange which is in scope for an FTTP deployment.
The local primary school, also connected to the same cab, was provided with fibre broadband in late December 2015 under the Welsh Government’s Public Sector Broadband Aggregation (‘PSBA’) programme which, I understand, is separate to the BT/Superfast Cymru roll-out.

Superfast Cymru has told me that local homes and businesses cannot connect to that school’s fibre connection because this would be a breach of the state aid rules under which PSBA money was granted.
Therefore, local residents and businesses will have to wait until the planned FTTP infrastructure is built and made available (latest estimate by early spring 2017).
Incidentally, Superfast Cymru’s checker is indicating that the school is also in scope for an FTTP deployment.

There are two other primary schools in neighbouring communities also connected to the Newcastle Emlyn exchange but on different cabs (2 & 6). Both those cabs have been FTTC enabled and inputting the school’s phone nos. to the Superfast Cymru ‘Where & When’ checker indicates they both have access to an FTTC connection.
Also, I have established that a number of residents and businesses located near these schools can also access superfast broadband via the same cabs that provide the schools connections.

Assuming that both those schools have also been fibre-enabled under the PSBA programme, can it be assumed that the state aid rule restriction has susequently been resolved to allow nearby residents and businesses in those local communities to also gain access to a fibre broadband from the same FTTC cabs?

Superfast Cymru has yet to respond to my query on this matter. However, a friend of mine has suggested that once services provided under a PSBA programme have been subsidised and those subsidies passed as acceptable, anyone, residents, businesses etc. are then free to take up those FTTC services if available. If this is the case, one would expect the schools to have had their fibre connections well before residents & businesses are allowed access to the same source. For this to happen, would an application have to be made to seek approval to do so under the PSBA guidelines? If so, any indications as to what length of time might be involved (i.e. between the schools getting access and residents/businesses being able to access same)?
Standard User WWWombat
(knowledge is power) Fri 19-Feb-16 23:32:37
Print Post

Re: Residential/Business Link to a PSBA Programme


[re: Broadbean2] [link to this post]
 
Doesn't PSBA really represent a private WAN rather than mere "next generation access"? Is PSBA really considered as "state aid" rather than merely procurement for public services?

The first school might just have installed a leased fibre line, with no implication on the surrounding NGA infrastructure for the GPON network that the public will have access to. And the leased line is wired into uncontended core bandwidth.

Meanwhile, the other schools could be getting an entry-level "Ethernet over GEA" leased line, where the access component is an FTTC line, but the WAN component is still private. This goes together to make a cheapish 20Mbps leased line. But they too could have installed a "proper" leased line.

The former could be totally disconnected from BDUK's NGA work, while the latter two piggyback off it. Or none of them use it at all.

I suspect you are looking for a linkage that just doesn't exist. But who knows...
Administrator MrSaffron
(staff) Sat 20-Feb-16 09:31:52
Print Post

Re: Residential/Business Link to a PSBA Programme


[re: Broadbean2] [link to this post]
 
Newcastle Emlyn cabinet 6 is not live, it is in the build phase. Cab 2 is live.

Both were done under BDUK/SuperfastCymru project, and as schools have phone lines, they will show also as enabled beyond that I do not see what the link to the PSBA programme is. Are the schools actually using a FTTC based connection or you presuming so based on the checker results?

Leased lines which it sounds like the PSBA is rolling out are different to FTTP and generally run as a private network.

The author of the above post is a thinkbroadband staff member. It may not constitute an official statement on behalf of thinkbroadband.


Register (or login) on our website and you will not see this ad.

Standard User gah789
(member) Sat 20-Feb-16 12:47:26
Print Post

Re: Residential/Business Link to a PSBA Programme


[re: Broadbean2] [link to this post]
 
There is a program in Scotland (known as SWAN) similar to PSBA in Wales. It causes a considerable amount of confusion and aggravation. In substance it is the collective procurement of a large number of private leased lines designed to serve schools, health centres and a variety of public facilities. The idea is that centralised management of the circuits will replace the need for individual contracts and IT support for each location, thus reducing the costs incurred by public sector bodies. It is quite separate from any programme to expand the coverage of fibre broadband.

So why the confusion. There are two reasons. First, there may be public benefit provisions which allow the circuits to used by community organisations that can link to the network at schools or health centres. This creates the impression that there is some form of wider access to the private network. In practice such use is very restricted and difficult to organise - partly because of state aid concerns but more because the programme managers want to keep very tight control over how the network is operated.

Second, there is the general sense that "fibre is fibre" - i.e. if company or school A connected to exchange or cabinet X can get a fibre leased line then why can't everyone on the same exchange or cabinet get it too. Readers of TBB may understand that the technology and requirements for a private leased line are not the same as those for a public FTTC or FTTP service but BT/Openreach do a rotten job of explaining the differences and their implications. Depending upon your proneness to conspiracy theories this may be the result of a deep & dark plan or just the product of incompetence and blindness. However, it is infuriating to anyone who has to deal with the public confusion that is caused.

There is, however, a genuine point that comes out of the "fibre is fibre" view of matters. Openreach has a de facto monopoly in most (real) rural areas. When it is paid to install or upgrade fibre infrastructure to serve a school or a company, the subsequent costs of providing public FTTC or FTTP services should be significantly reduced. So if public money is spent on charges to provide leased lines for public facilities, why do the costs of upgrading exchanges to provide FTTC or FTTP remain so high? Part of the answer lies in the way in which the regulatory system operates in order to encourage competition between networks.

Still, it doesn't make much sense to anyone taking the view that a de facto monopoly is still a monopoly and that the goal should be to regulate it to provide a range of services at lowest overall cost, implying a single pool of revenue from leased lines, retail services, etc. The argument is not unique to the UK - there have been similar debates in the US where they are keener on promoting competition between infrastructure networks. The underlying problem is that a regulatory system designed for 80-90% of customers really doesn't fit the needs of the remaining 10-20% of customers.
Standard User Icaras
(committed) Sat 20-Feb-16 16:20:34
Print Post

Re: Residential/Business Link to a PSBA Programme


[re: gah789] [link to this post]
 
So if public money is spent on charges to provide leased lines for public facilities, why do the costs of upgrading exchanges to provide FTTC or FTTP remain so high? Part of the answer lies in the way in which the regulatory system operates in order to encourage competition between networks.


I understand your general point but the technology is different. FTTC and native Openreach FTTP aren't the same as a leased line fibre connection. The school in question will have an Openreach leased fibre connection. This is a dedicated fibre from the school to the exchange (and the local exchange at that, rather than to the nearest headend in the case of FTTC or FTTP). FTTC and FTTP have aggregation points, and many splice points along the way to the headend. A leased line has none of that stuff.
Standard User RobertoS
(elder) Sat 20-Feb-16 17:02:27
Print Post

Re: Residential/Business Link to a PSBA Programme


[re: Icaras] [link to this post]
 
"Wot! No splice points?"

(If you remember the half-moon face and fingers over the wall).

The indispensable man or woman passes from the scene, and what happens next is more or less the same thing as was happening before.
My broadband basic info/help site - www.robertos.me.uk. Domains, site and mail hosting - Tsohost.
Connection - AAISP Home::1 80/20. Sync 59504/15641kbps @ 600m. - BQM
Standard User BatBoy
(sensei) Sat 20-Feb-16 17:06:14
Print Post

Re: Residential/Business Link to a PSBA Programme


[re: RobertoS] [link to this post]
 
Mr Chad?
Standard User RobertoS
(elder) Sat 20-Feb-16 18:01:47
Print Post

Re: Residential/Business Link to a PSBA Programme


[re: BatBoy] [link to this post]
 
That's the one smile.

The indispensable man or woman passes from the scene, and what happens next is more or less the same thing as was happening before.
My broadband basic info/help site - www.robertos.me.uk. Domains, site and mail hosting - Tsohost.
Connection - AAISP Home::1 80/20. Sync 59504/15641kbps @ 600m. - BQM
Standard User kitcat
(committed) Sat 20-Feb-16 19:14:05
Print Post

Re: Residential/Business Link to a PSBA Programme


[re: Icaras] [link to this post]
 
Icarus

Partially correct.

The fibre cable will have other fibres within it that may be used for other services. The cable may also go through aggregation points where other service can be connected to the same cable. The Fibre tail from the last aggregation point to the school will be unique and the fibre pair this is spliced to within the cable will only be used for the one service.
Thus others can not piggy back on the school service as it is dedicated BUT other services can be provided within the same cable from aggregation points along it's route. ( May not even go to the local exchange but to another exchange entirely)
Standard User Icaras
(committed) Sun 21-Feb-16 17:47:34
Print Post

Re: Residential/Business Link to a PSBA Programme


[re: kitcat] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by kitcat:
Icarus

Partially correct.

The fibre cable will have other fibres within it that may be used for other services. The cable may also go through aggregation points where other service can be connected to the same cable. The Fibre tail from the last aggregation point to the school will be unique and the fibre pair this is spliced to within the cable will only be used for the one service.
Thus others can not piggy back on the school service as it is dedicated BUT other services can be provided within the same cable from aggregation points along it's route. ( May not even go to the local exchange but to another exchange entirely)


I should say I do this for a living, I'm not just guessing! I'm pretty much right though in what I've said, the actual fibre itself is dedicated. From the school to the exchange. I should have made clear I meant the actual fibre rather than the cable that it is in. As you say there's nothing to stop it being spliced at different points and joining other cables. But that's still very different from how the FTTC network works.

I'm pretty sure I said usually go back to the local exchange. Most leased lines do.

Whereas with FTTC it's often the case that they don't go to the local exchange.

In reply to a post by RobertoS:
"Wot! No splice points?"

(If you remember the half-moon face and fingers over the wall).


The reference is lost on me I'm afraid!

I just meant it won't have "many" splice points. Not always necessary on a leased line. Suppose it depends on what cables are already in the ground though.

Edited by Icaras (Sun 21-Feb-16 17:49:53)

Pages in this thread: 1 | 2 | (show all)   Print Thread

Jump to