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Standard User philjones88
(newbie) Mon 18-Jul-16 09:31:40
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Bovis new build only IFNL, no hope of other providers?


[link to this post]
 
Hello all,

I've hit a bit of a deadlock in my quest to get a better ISP. I am currently with "See The Light" and suffer terrible speeds and latency at peak hours or under heavy usage. Other residents suffer similarly issues at peak hours, generally 10 minutes after STL's support closes (8pm).

I bought a new build Bovis house last year in North Bristol (Charlton Hayes), BS34 5FN and was told on purchase that "See The Light" were the only provider, this turned out to be kind of true in the fact that the only broadband and telephone network installed by Bovis and other developers is that of IFNL. There are currently 4 "suppliers" of internet to my property (See The Light, Direct Save Telecom, VFast and Love your Broadband or something), the problem is they are basically resellers on IFNL's network which has the same issues due to it being the same network!

IFNL = Independent Fibre Networks Ltd

Residents of Charlton Hayes are generally mixed satisfaction wise with the service provided by IFNL providers, mapping happy/unhappy residents it seems the newer phases suffer worse issues.

Trying uSwitch and other shows providers offering services but getting to checkout always results in failures. From my understanding there isn't copper installed just fibre by DTC+IFNL.

From my understanding IFNL and DTC installed fibre, never got a clear answer on to what level but won't allow other ISPs to access the development.

Emailing IFNL I get a reply with:

Thanks for the email. IFNL operates under the same Ofcom rules and regulations as Openreach and offer the same services to Service Providers using our Open Access Network. we are not preventing any Service Provider from delivering services. The only condition is if BT or Virgin wish to use our infrastructure then there is a requirement to sign our agreement.

For new housing developments all land is private until the roads are adopted by the local authority and this typically takes 2 years after the completion of the site. Only when the roads are adopted can other Service Providers such as BT or Virgin then elect to dig to properties. The Service provider electing to dig would typically only do so if there was a commercial business case to warrant the expense.

I read this as, it's private property of Bovis still (roads are currently being finished as I type) and even when that's done VM/BT/etc won't be able to install cabling into IFNL's ducts and can only be a supplier on their network?


What hope do we the residents of Chartlon Hayes have of getting choice of supplier?

Edited by philjones88 (Mon 18-Jul-16 10:02:38)

Standard User godsell4
(member) Mon 18-Jul-16 12:30:07
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Re: Bovis new build only IFNL, no hope of other providers?


[re: philjones88] [link to this post]
 
If IFNL are that bad, have as many people in your new build development as possible vote with your wallets, do not sign up for IFNL, or start paying them what you think the service is worth at the current performance/quality levels. With that money saved build your own Wireless network or approach Gigaclear or similar to install FTTP in your area.

Also see if NHBC have any influence ... can you argue the service is not of satisfactory quality or similar?

PlusNet Unlimited Fibre 3Mb to 5Mb
Standard User philjones88
(newbie) Mon 18-Jul-16 12:32:52
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Re: Bovis new build only IFNL, no hope of other providers?


[re: godsell4] [link to this post]
 
I'm starting to build a list of people who are not happy and willing to help put pressure on IFNL/Bovis/NHBC or anyone who will listen.

We would like to vote with our wallets but all the "suppliers" all use IFNL's network as there is not other network available to properties, no BT line at all.

I approached Hyperoptic who are already in Bristol and spoke to a very helpful chap there but he said they won't (and possibly everyone else) install to Charlton Hayes as it'd be too costly to dig up the roads and IFNL won't allow access to their tunnels/ducting.


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Standard User TheEulerID
(experienced) Mon 18-Jul-16 12:58:26
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Re: Bovis new build only IFNL, no hope of other providers?


[re: philjones88] [link to this post]
 
The most obvious route is to put pressure on the developer. If you bought a house with an implied promise of good broadband infrastructure and this hasn't materialised, then there's a case you've been sold something which hasn't been delivered. One householder is not enough of course, so the more than can join together into a pressure group, the better. It should also include lobbying local politicians.

Essentially the exercise is to put pressure on the developer to put further pressure on the infrastructure provider to sort this issue out as they are in a position to do so. Bovis will not want it to be publicised that their chosen partner is delivering services not fit for purpose, and if there's some potential threat of legal action for compensation (through miss-selling), that could help focus their minds too.

The claim by IFNL that they operate under the same rules as Ofcom apply to Openreach is sheer nonsense. Whilst there are some parts of the regulation that apply to both, OR are far more tightly regulated as OR are deemed to have significant market power. They have duties of equivalence and access to passive infrastructure that simply don't apply to altnets.

Of course OR have a duty to supply basic telecoms under a USO, but that is subject to cost limits (and could incur excess construction costs). It is also limited (at the moment) to a duty to provide a copper path and doesn't include a broadband USO. It's not quite true that it's impossible to dig up the roads and streets until the council have adopted the roads (who would not be keen on more excavation anyway). It is always, theoretically at least, possible for a telecom infrastructure provider with the required code powers to force essential work, but that's a very expensive, uncertain and last resort exercise.

Edited by TheEulerID (Mon 18-Jul-16 13:00:32)

Administrator MrSaffron
(staff) Mon 18-Jul-16 13:19:22
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Re: Bovis new build only IFNL, no hope of other providers?


[re: TheEulerID] [link to this post]
 
Code powers only apply once a road/pavement has been adopted by a council, some new builds remain private for a few years before adoption, and thus even for Openreach to provide is reliant on permission from road owner.

Unfortunately the poor speeds some see on FTTH via IFNL shows that while FTTH is a great technology future proofing the final connection to a property does not ensure that speeds are fast enough for the usual video streaming at peak times.

On pursuing the developer, do they allow satellite dishes? If not, then the FTTH is going to be even more in demand and used by people, i.e. chasing online video rather using a Sky/FreeSat PVR .

The author of the above post is a thinkbroadband staff member. It may not constitute an official statement on behalf of thinkbroadband.
Standard User Christine07
(newbie) Wed 03-Aug-16 17:26:48
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Re: Bovis new build only IFNL, no hope of other providers?


[re: philjones88] [link to this post]
 
Hi
I am moving into a Bovis home on the same site in a few weeks' time. I have been asked by Bovis which broadband provider of the four offered that I would like to go with.

Having seen this thread, It seems they are all as bad as each other!

Can any residents advise as to which is the least worst of the four?

Also, I'm very happy to join any residents groups that are putting pressure on Bovis to sort this out. Please let me have details of anything you have organised that I can attend or access online.

Thanks!
Standard User David_W
(fountain of knowledge) Wed 03-Aug-16 21:53:12
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Re: Bovis new build only IFNL, no hope of other providers?


[re: Christine07] [link to this post]
 
There has been mention of some potential legal routes in this thread - "satisfactory quality" and misrepresentation. These concepts relate to contract law in general (misrepresentation) and the law on the sale of goods ("satisfactory quality"). The corresponding concept to "satisfactory quality" for supply of services is "reasonable care and skill". The law on real property transactions - in which I am no expert - is rather different to the law relating to supply of services. For what are hopefully obvious reasons, real property law is much more heavily weighted to transactions being final once completed and registered. So far as I remember, it is possible for misrepresentation to apply to the purchase of a house, but it is very unlikely that Bovis gave any sort of representation, let alone an implicit contractual term, about Internet performance or minimum speed available from the residential providers.

I would think it unlikely the poor Internet quality would give any legal remedy against Bovis (or whoever else the property was bought or leased from). Any legal remedy available would seem to relate only to the broadband contract, where the most you would likely achieve is termination of the contract.

The reality is that the regulatory framework permits this situation. It is near certain that IFNL offers the likes of Bovis cheaper prices than Openreach would charge for FTTP whilst allowing the developer to claim, truthfully, that the properties have FTTP. As IFNL do not have significant market presence, they are not required to provide access to their physical infrastructure, so it would be hugely expensive for Openreach or Virgin Media to use their code powers to extend their networks into IFNL areas once the roads are adopted, whilst almost everyone who wants fixed broadband will have already signed up with a service provider running over IFNL, so there would be very limited payback for such expensive works. It is very unlikely that Openreach, Virgin Media or any of the altnets can be persuaded to spend limited capital resources on overbuilding an IFNL area. Indeed, Virgin Media Business provide services over IFNL in at least one IFNL area. IFNL offers open access terms to service providers, but the big service providers will have limited interest in operating via a niche network partner like IFNL. Without regulatory change, it is likely that an area built as IFNL only will remain IFNL only.

The universal service obligation doesn't help here, as the properties already have phone and FTTP, so it would likely not be a "reasonable request" to BT for connection under the USO. If BT did provide a connection via the USO or at commercial rates, it is likely to involve a vast bill for excess construction charges and the connection may well only support slow ADSL at best.

The problem lies with the weasel words "up to", also the expectation formed by many using Openreach based broadband services that they experience little to no visible contention. As the service is FTTP, 100% of properties can connect at the rated speed, so "up to" is the maximum speed possible. With the high speed services sold on IFNL, the peering and especially backhaul requirements to permit everyone to operate at near full speed under all but extreme circumstances will be cost prohibitive for consumer broadband. The same issue affects Virgin Media - the degree to which they oversell the available capacity results in very poor service for some at busier times.

What is unclear is whether the root cause of the experienced issues are limitations on the IFNL network, or with the low capacity bought by the four residential service providers. One possible remedy is to approach some of the business providers providing services via IFNL to see if they can provide service to a home address.

As MrSaffron has said numerous times on these forums, the best way to express your feelings about the importance of broadband is refusing to buy a property if you are not happy with the broadband currently available there. Unfortunately, in these times when property in many areas is scarce and expensive, there will always be people who are not clued up about the potential pitfalls relating to broadband speed who will be happy to buy.



ZeN Unlimited Fibre 2 with native IPv6
thinkbroadband speed test : speedtest.net : thinkbroadband quality monitor IPv4 IPv6
Standard User Fastman2
(committed) Thu 04-Aug-16 10:30:37
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Re: Bovis new build only IFNL, no hope of other providers?


[re: philjones88] [link to this post]
 
that is a lock out site there is no other infrastructure than INFL on that Site
Standard User philjones88
(newbie) Thu 04-Aug-16 10:47:17
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Re: Bovis new build only IFNL, no hope of other providers?


[re: Christine07] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by Christine07:
Hi
I am moving into a Bovis home on the same site in a few weeks' time. I have been asked by Bovis which broadband provider of the four offered that I would like to go with.

Having seen this thread, It seems they are all as bad as each other!

Can any residents advise as to which is the least worst of the four?

Also, I'm very happy to join any residents groups that are putting pressure on Bovis to sort this out. Please let me have details of anything you have organised that I can attend or access online.

Thanks!


If you are prepared to complain heavily and are reasonably savvy with networking and routers, See The Light seem to be the best of the bad bunch.

I've only been in 1 year and with See The Light, looking at the others, the services are roughly the same and the prices the same, if not more costly. Well it is the same raw network I guess...

They are sending out new Thomson routers after huge customer complaints about the one they force you to use, mysteriously using my third party router (Asus RT-N66U) has PPPoE drops but chaining it with their "blessed" router in front solves the drops... I gave up trying to get their script monkeys to understand I wanted to talk to somehow about it rather than turning it on and off again and just chained the routers so I could get decent wifi and no drops.
Standard User BatBoy
(sensei) Thu 04-Aug-16 11:07:49
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Re: Bovis new build only IFNL, no hope of other providers?


[re: philjones88] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by philjones88:
mysteriously using my third party router (Asus RT-N66U) has PPPoE drops but chaining it with their "blessed" router in front solves the drops... I gave up trying to get their script monkeys to understand I wanted to talk to somehow about it rather than turning it on and off again and just chained the routers so I could get decent wifi and no drops.
Presumably by "chaining it" you mean the N66U is configured as an Access Point?
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