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Standard User Chrysalis
(legend) Fri 13-Jan-17 21:55:20
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Re: Openreach to rollout 3dB target SNRm for FTTC next year


[re: MCM] [link to this post]
 
not everyone judging by the replies smile

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Standard User AndyHCZ
(committed) Fri 13-Jan-17 22:19:56
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Re: Openreach to rollout 3dB target SNRm for FTTC next year


[re: Chrysalis] [link to this post]
 
It's possibly to replace every piece of copper cable in the country, it's neither practical nor is it cost effective to do so.

It looks to me that OR did a special favour to resolve that line issue, which wasn't part of their normal protocol.
Standard User Ignitionnet
(knowledge is power) Fri 13-Jan-17 23:57:59
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Re: Openreach to rollout 3dB target SNRm for FTTC next year


[re: adslmax] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by adslmax:
Or maybe my cabinet is reduced SNR cos of more taken in or due to crosstalk?


This.


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Standard User Chrysalis
(legend) Sat 14-Jan-17 01:00:54
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Re: Openreach to rollout 3dB target SNRm for FTTC next year


[re: AndyHCZ] [link to this post]
 
I never said it was cost effective, I just said its possible. I also never suggested they should be replacing all of the copper nationwide,

Of course tho without CPs been in the way leeching of revenue and with openreach able to increase prices to compensate for lack of CP profit margin, openreach would also have more headroom to do better fixes on their network.

Generally tho replacing copper is dumb anyway as its not future proof. But thats the path openreach have chosen.

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Edited by Chrysalis (Sat 14-Jan-17 01:01:39)

Standard User billford
(elder) Sat 14-Jan-17 01:10:50
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Re: Openreach to rollout 3dB target SNRm for FTTC next year


[re: Chrysalis] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by Chrysalis:
Generally tho replacing copper is dumb anyway as its not future proof. But thats the path openreach have chosen.
The only thing that is truly future-proof is a reliable crystal ball and a bottomless pit of money... companies do what they can with what's available.




edit- typo

Bill
A level playing field is level in both directions.

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Edited by billford (Sat 14-Jan-17 01:12:02)

Standard User WWWombat
(knowledge is power) Sat 14-Jan-17 02:34:17
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Re: Openreach to rollout 3dB target SNRm for FTTC next year


[re: MrSaffron] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by MrSaffron:
What I will say is I am expecting CDS to fight tooth and nail ... The journey so far has not been a friendly one.


That's *really* obvious.

In the recent meeting, one Devon councillor was ripping into BT for having not installed many of the vouchers from the recent voucher scheme. Once it was pointed out that BT wasn't involved, the vitriol went, and he listened to the (reasonable) explanation.

In reply to a post by MrSaffron:
... over even a slight delay even if this just down to extra time needed for FTTP work.


The last meeting suggested the delays were mostly related to wayleaves, and are likely to be sorted in the first 3 months of the year.

If I have the numbers right, the delays affect around 4% of the total premises due to get SF speeds. That makes the delay/numbers very similar to those encountered by North Yorkshire. That delay didn't cause any particular fractiousness, but did allow the council to apply a little leverage to encourage completion of 3 "at risk" commercial cabinets.

In terms of outcome, it seems that CDS is getting a similar result to the rest of the country. A project complete almost on time, and certainly within budget. But the experience on the journey ...

In reply to a post by MrSaffron:
Given a few more hours in a day


Funny how Santa never brings *that* present...

In reply to a post by MrSaffron:
On the CDS scenario, don't know the exact number of premises in contract paperwork as was signed, but in terms of delivery the fighting is going to be about the drop from VDSL2 coverage, to 24 Mbps or 30 Mbps thresholds. In what has been delivered 84% can get over 24 Mbps and a lower 81.8% on our figures.


I agree where the fight will happen.

From previous work, I figure that 3dB can be worth as much as 11Mbps for people capable of getting 60-80Mbps (because they have all tones available). For lines with speeds around 20-30Mbps, 3dB is likely to give them something in the region of 3 or 6Mbps. The gain at the lower end when they only get the D1 band, the higher gain if they get D1 and a good chunk of D2.

Using your coverage figures (in the fibre guide) around distances of 900-1200m, it seems those speed increases could equate to extra range of 150-300 metres, and extra coverage of 3-5%.

Those numbers could be critical.

In reply to a post by MrSaffron:
That said there is some FTTP still in build, and there has been some infill work. Will do an overall CDS report at weekend, as the commercial areas have an impact on the 90% target too.

That was another aspect noted: that there was outstanding commercial work that means they won't hit 90% even when phase 1 completes.
Standard User WWWombat
(knowledge is power) Sat 14-Jan-17 02:43:20
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Re: Openreach to rollout 3dB target SNRm for FTTC next year


[re: Nightglow] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by Nightglow:
In reply to a post by Icaras:
Now how the hell would a Kelly's employee know anything about BT strategy? Ignore him.

Wait & seewink


It was notable that, even when BT were planning to deploy vectoring, they still weren't planning on increasing the top speed to 100Mbps.

And vectoring would likely have get a bigger gain than a 3dB profile.

An increase in VDSL2 top speed /now/ will reduce the market for G.Fast upgrades (to the 160Mbps level).
Standard User PaulKirby
(knowledge is power) Sat 14-Jan-17 06:23:57
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Re: Openreach to rollout 3dB target SNRm for FTTC next year


[re: Chrysalis] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by Chrysalis:
true, but its still not the same as stating they powerless.

a guy on kitz after the openreach exec team got involved had a speed issue resolved, when management approve it suddenly they can get things done.

They redug a trench, fed some new cable through and swapped his port at the cabinet all in a single day.

Normal support channels got him nowhere.

His experience has shown what can happen when the CP is taken out of the equation and we deal with openreach direct.

Without CPs been in the middle openreach also can take a larger revenue as the CP middle man mark up is removed from the relationship as well.

I see CPs been involved in the line retal arrangement as akin to a letting agent renting out properties, they are a useless leech.

Well my local MP and myself was getting no where for the last 2 to 5 years with BT's Exec team via emails or over the phone.

We only got our fibre installed when I wrote a polite email to the CEO of BT Group and the Chairman's Office of BT also including a copy of the email that I had just sent my local MP along with evidence etc.

And then a few days later they did some more work down my road then re-booked the engineers and our fibre was installed.

So in my eyes you have to get the people at the top aware of the issues before anything will get done and I think it shouldn't be that way.

Paul

BTBroadband - Infinity 4 - 310Mbps (down), 31Mbps (up)
TBB Speedtest
Standard User Nightglow
(member) Sat 14-Jan-17 10:17:55
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Re: Openreach to rollout 3dB target SNRm for FTTC next year


[re: PaulKirby] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by PaulKirby:
In reply to a post by Chrysalis:
true, but its still not the same as stating they powerless.

a guy on kitz after the openreach exec team got involved had a speed issue resolved, when management approve it suddenly they can get things done.

They redug a trench, fed some new cable through and swapped his port at the cabinet all in a single day.

Normal support channels got him nowhere.

His experience has shown what can happen when the CP is taken out of the equation and we deal with openreach direct.

Without CPs been in the middle openreach also can take a larger revenue as the CP middle man mark up is removed from the relationship as well.

I see CPs been involved in the line retal arrangement as akin to a letting agent renting out properties, they are a useless leech.

Well my local MP and myself was getting no where for the last 2 to 5 years with BT's Exec team via emails or over the phone.

We only got our fibre installed when I wrote a polite email to the CEO of BT Group and the Chairman's Office of BT also including a copy of the email that I had just sent my local MP along with evidence etc.

And then a few days later they did some more work down my road then re-booked the engineers and our fibre was installed.

So in my eyes you have to get the people at the top aware of the issues before anything will get done and I think it shouldn't be that way.

Paul


Exactly the same situation, getting 9-14Mb here, despite checker say 70Mb minimum,& contining drop connection, nearly 18 months of getting nowhere with BT/OR at normal levels.
Made myself unpopular by writing to CEO's of BT & OR, with a fortnight, 2 engineers turned up & moved me to the rear pole ran new cable from house & down back lane, had a other few problems,so whole job took them two & half days to sort.

What is so annoying is the number of engineers, think it was eight sent previously to sort problem at various times, one wanted to do something, yet some bean counter wouldn't authorise it, so the problem continue,it shouldn't be like this,the OR engineer on the ground should be allow more freedom to sort the the problem.

Edited by Nightglow (Sat 14-Jan-17 10:26:41)

Administrator MrSaffron
(staff) Sat 14-Jan-17 10:41:17
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Re: Openreach to rollout 3dB target SNRm for FTTC next year


[re: WWWombat] [link to this post]
 
Have found the phase I target figure 277,000 at over 24 Mbps, in terms of 'fibre' based well past that point, so distance performance is key here, and the pessimism of our model means we are likely to under shoot BT Group figures. Got one more process running to collate intervention area data.

We have looked at our model versus reality from speed tests and they line up, but scope for a small improvement around the 1km mark, but want to do a deeper split to look at difference per cabinet manufacturer etc. Hope is that in time might be able to see difference vectoring makes, and run multiple models depending on the cabinet type. Too few premises involved in LR-VDSL trials to get anything useful from that trial.

Another factor meaning 90% is hard, is while new build numbers are small, it has a bit of an effect especially if not all of them get VDSL2/FTTP

The tracking of Airband coverage is a challenge, and need to see speed data to see what we call it speed wise. We do see some really great fixed wireless services, but also see some mediocre ones that tick a superfast box but rare to see someone on that product. Can't imagine the outcry if the most popular BT Infinity product was an up to 15 Mbps service.

At end of the day this is looking like a case of very close to targets, and will be able to add my if you want to ensure 100% coverage, best to plan to deliver 110%. The reality of the project target NOT being 90% in each community/constituency/district council area is something I think lots of councillors/MPs are starting to only just understand.

The author of the above post is a thinkbroadband staff member. It may not constitute an official statement on behalf of thinkbroadband.
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