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Standard User alidaf
(newbie) Sun 19-Mar-17 08:15:09
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When is FTTC not FTTC?


[link to this post]
 
I switched to fibre since our exchange went live around 2 years ago. I've had nothing but problems; first with BT and now with Sky.
Constant disconnections! I left BT because it appeared from the router's tr069 logs that the disconnections were caused by remote management, but the Sky router logs aren't as cryptic and clearly show the VDSL2 line being dropped. I've now had 8 or 9 Openreach visits and most claim to have found and fixed a fault, but the problem persists albeit slightly better. I was somewhat alarmed though, when one of the more recent technicians told me that even though the service is advertised as FTTC, it actually isn't. Our cabinet still has a copper connection to the exchange.
How can this possibly be? Even the Openreach website lists the exchange (Manor Park) as FTTC (Cabinet No 9). The most recent technician diagnosed a difference in wire lengths between the exchange and cabinet as a potential problem (amber warning), which also suggests that we don't actually have FTTC.
Is this common practice or simply Openreach misleading customers?
Standard User WilliamGrimsley
(committed) Sun 19-Mar-17 08:41:06
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Re: When is FTTC not FTTC?


[re: alidaf] [link to this post]
 
Hmm, very strange.

Are you able to post line stats from the router? This will allow us to confirm that the line is activated for VDSL2.
Standard User alidaf
(newbie) Sun 19-Mar-17 08:44:50
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Re: When is FTTC not FTTC?


[re: WilliamGrimsley] [link to this post]
 
Here's a snippet (I have logs going back to January):

Mar 18 09:15:14 syslog: Lease renewed 3600 ip 151.227.178.3
Mar 18 09:42:50 syslog: Lease renewed 3600 ip 151.227.178.3
Mar 18 10:07:08 syslog: Lease renewed 3600 ip 151.227.178.3
Mar 18 10:12:05 syslog: [256911.764000] Line 0: VDSL2 link down
Mar 18 10:12:08 syslog: [256914.203000] Line 0: xDSL G.994 training
Mar 18 10:12:08 syslog: Clear IP addresses. IP connection DOWN.
Mar 18 10:12:22 syslog: [256928.209000] Line 0: VDSL G.993 started
Mar 18 10:14:00 syslog: [257026.997000] Line 0: VDSL2 link up, Bearer 0, us=6000, ds=22400
Mar 18 10:14:00 syslog: [257027.003000] Line 0: VDSL2 link up, Bearer 1, us=0, ds=0
Mar 18 10:14:11 syslog: Send out NTP request to ntp1.isp.sky.com
Mar 18 10:15:02 syslog: ptm0.1 - WAN link UP.
Mar 18 10:15:02 syslog: Received valid DHCP lease from server. Connection UP.
Mar 18 10:15:02 syslog: Connection Up. SNO/MAC/IP/SWVER: [AC10163E000884/902106762208/151.227.178.3/2.01.1860.R]
Mar 18 10:15:02 syslog: Send out NTP request to ntp1.isp.sky.com
Mar 18 10:15:02 syslog: Received NTP Sync Reply from ntp1.isp.sky.com
Mar 18 10:15:02 syslog: System time is up to date
Mar 18 10:15:02 syslog: Received NTP Sync Reply from ntp1.isp.sky.com
Mar 18 10:39:32 syslog: Lease renewed 3600 ip 151.227.178.3
Mar 18 11:13:24 syslog: Lease renewed 3600 ip 151.227.178.3
Mar 18 11:40:42 syslog: Lease renewed 3600 ip 151.227.178.3
Mar 18 12:11:41 syslog: [264088.116000] Line 0: VDSL2 link down
Mar 18 12:11:43 syslog: [264090.087000] Line 0: xDSL G.994 training
Mar 18 12:11:43 syslog: Clear IP addresses. IP connection DOWN.
Mar 18 12:11:56 syslog: [264103.108000] Line 0: VDSL2 link down
Mar 18 12:11:57 syslog: [264104.113000] Line 0: ADSL G.992 started
Mar 18 12:12:00 syslog: [264107.125000] Line 0: ADSL link down
Mar 18 12:12:01 syslog: [264108.130000] Line 0: ADSL G.992 started
Mar 18 12:12:02 syslog: [264109.143000] Line 0: ADSL link down
Mar 18 12:12:03 syslog: [264110.146000] Line 0: ADSL G.992 started
Mar 18 12:12:04 syslog: [264111.158000] Line 0: ADSL link down
Mar 18 12:12:05 syslog: [264112.161000] Line 0: ADSL G.992 started
Mar 18 12:12:08 syslog: [264115.174000] Line 0: ADSL link down
Mar 18 12:12:09 syslog: [264116.177000] Line 0: ADSL G.992 started
Mar 18 12:12:11 syslog: [264118.189000] Line 0: ADSL link down
Mar 18 12:12:12 syslog: [264119.193000] Line 0: ADSL G.992 started
Mar 18 12:12:13 syslog: [264120.213000] Line 0: ADSL link down
Mar 18 12:12:19 syslog: [264126.219000] Line 0: ADSL G.992 started
Mar 18 12:12:21 syslog: [264128.231000] Line 0: ADSL link down
Mar 18 12:12:23 syslog: [264130.235000] Line 0: ADSL G.992 started
Mar 18 12:12:24 syslog: [264131.246000] Line 0: ADSL link down
Mar 18 12:12:25 syslog: [264132.249000] Line 0: ADSL G.992 started
Mar 18 12:12:26 syslog: [264133.260000] Line 0: ADSL link down
Mar 18 12:12:28 syslog: [264135.263000] Line 0: ADSL G.992 started
Mar 18 12:12:30 syslog: [264137.276000] Line 0: ADSL link down
Mar 18 12:12:31 syslog: [264138.280000] Line 0: ADSL G.992 started
Mar 18 12:12:34 syslog: [264141.291000] Line 0: ADSL link down
Mar 18 12:12:35 syslog: [264142.294000] Line 0: ADSL G.992 started
Mar 18 12:12:36 syslog: [264143.306000] Line 0: ADSL link down
Mar 18 12:12:37 syslog: [264144.309000] Line 0: ADSL G.992 started
Mar 18 12:12:40 syslog: [264147.321000] Line 0: ADSL link down
Mar 18 12:12:41 syslog: [264148.324000] Line 0: ADSL G.992 started
Mar 18 12:12:44 syslog: [264151.335000] Line 0: ADSL link down
Mar 18 12:12:45 syslog: [264152.338000] Line 0: ADSL G.992 started
Mar 18 12:12:48 syslog: [264155.350000] Line 0: ADSL link down
Mar 18 12:12:52 syslog: [264159.353000] Line 0: ADSL G.992 started
Mar 18 12:12:57 syslog: [264164.365000] Line 0: ADSL link down
Mar 18 12:13:01 syslog: [264168.369000] Line 0: ADSL G.992 started
Mar 18 12:13:04 syslog: [264171.383000] Line 0: ADSL link down
Mar 18 12:13:05 syslog: [264172.386000] Line 0: ADSL G.992 started
Mar 18 12:13:06 syslog: [264173.398000] Line 0: ADSL link down
Mar 18 12:13:07 syslog: [264174.402000] Line 0: ADSL G.992 started
Mar 18 12:13:08 syslog: [264175.414000] Line 0: ADSL link down
Mar 18 12:13:10 syslog: [264177.418000] Line 0: ADSL G.992 started
Mar 18 12:13:11 syslog: [264178.431000] Line 0: ADSL link down
Mar 18 12:13:16 syslog: [264183.435000] Line 0: ADSL G.992 started
Mar 18 12:13:18 syslog: [264185.446000] Line 0: ADSL link down
Mar 18 12:13:24 syslog: [264191.451000] Line 0: ADSL G.992 started
Mar 18 12:13:25 syslog: [264192.462000] Line 0: ADSL link down
Mar 18 12:13:26 syslog: [264193.465000] Line 0: ADSL G.992 started
Mar 18 12:13:29 syslog: [264196.478000] Line 0: ADSL link down
Mar 18 12:13:34 syslog: [264201.486000] Line 0: xDSL G.994 training
Mar 18 12:13:49 syslog: [264216.491000] Line 0: VDSL G.993 started
Mar 18 12:16:13 syslog: [264360.307000] Line 0: VDSL2 link up, Bearer 0, us=4998, ds=20000
Mar 18 12:16:13 syslog: [264360.313000] Line 0: VDSL2 link up, Bearer 1, us=0, ds=0
Mar 18 12:17:23 syslog: ptm0.1 - WAN link UP.
Mar 18 12:17:23 syslog: Received valid DHCP lease from server. Connection UP.
Mar 18 12:17:23 syslog: Connection Up. SNO/MAC/IP/SWVER: [AC10163E000884/902106762208/94.195.69.68/2.01.1860.R]
Mar 18 12:17:23 syslog: Send out NTP request to ntp1.isp.sky.com
Mar 18 12:17:23 syslog: Received NTP Sync Reply from ntp1.isp.sky.com
Mar 18 12:17:23 syslog: System time is up to date


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Standard User witchunt
(member) Sun 19-Mar-17 08:48:36
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Re: When is FTTC not FTTC?


[re: alidaf] [link to this post]
 
You clearly have a VDSL (FTTC ) connection, one that doesn't work very well for some reason
Standard User WilliamGrimsley
(committed) Sun 19-Mar-17 08:56:59
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Re: When is FTTC not FTTC?


[re: witchunt] [link to this post]
 
This is weird, it shows ADSL and VDSL2 connections being made...
Standard User richi
(regular) Sun 19-Mar-17 09:11:26
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Re: When is FTTC not FTTC?


[re: alidaf] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by alidaf:
one of the more recent technicians told me that even though the service is advertised as FTTC, it actually isn't. Our cabinet still has a copper connection to the exchange.
Openreach engineers often talk utter nonsense, sadly. (For example, the chap who visited me, saying there was no such thing as LLU, swearing blind that the equipment in all exchanges is all owned and run by BT.)

But there's often a grain of truth in what they say. In this case, I bet your exchange is one of those where the fibre actually runs to a different exchange. So the only connections from the cabinets to your local exchange is the traditional "E-side" copper. It's common if your exchange is quite small but close to a larger exchange.

3 km line on THTG: 19/1.2 Mb/s with Sky
Previously: BT ISDN, Nildram, Plusnet, 186k, EFH, Be*, Plusnet (again), Pulse8
Standard User Nightglow
(member) Sun 19-Mar-17 09:13:24
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Re: When is FTTC not FTTC?


[re: WilliamGrimsley] [link to this post]
 
One extract, how is this possible,I'm very confused.

Mar 18 12:11:56 syslog: [264103.108000] Line 0: VDSL2 link down
Mar 18 12:11:57 syslog: [264104.113000] Line 0: ADSL G.992 started
Standard User alidaf
(newbie) Sun 19-Mar-17 09:17:06
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Re: When is FTTC not FTTC?


[re: witchunt] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by witchunt:
You clearly have a VDSL (FTTC ) connection, one that doesn't work very well for some reason

Well, Openreach claimed to have found faults and fixed them, but I still have, and a lot of people in the area also have problems. I also get a lot of periods where the DHCP lease isn't renewed for around an hour unless I soft reset the connection.
At one point, Sky claimed that a disconnected lamp near the router was the cause of the problems. It has been one long farce.
The question remains though, should FTTC mean exactly that, i.e. cabinet rather than exchange, because I certainly don't have it. A lot of the problems, from what I have discussed with the Openreach personnel, have been between the cabinet and the exchange.
Standard User alidaf
(newbie) Sun 19-Mar-17 09:19:59
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Re: When is FTTC not FTTC?


[re: Nightglow] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by Nightglow:
One extract, how is this possible,I'm very confused.

Mar 18 12:11:56 syslog: [264103.108000] Line 0: VDSL2 link down
Mar 18 12:11:57 syslog: [264104.113000] Line 0: ADSL G.992 started


Well, I don't have much clue regarding those specific entries but I found the logs from the BT router's tr069 logs even more confusing!
Standard User WilliamGrimsley
(committed) Sun 19-Mar-17 09:25:16
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Re: When is FTTC not FTTC?


[re: Nightglow] [link to this post]
 
I hope it's just the router's way of saying a DSL connection is being attempted.
Standard User RobertoS
(elder) Sun 19-Mar-17 09:26:00
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Re: When is FTTC not FTTC? *DELETED*


[re: richi] [link to this post]
 
Post deleted by RobertoS
Standard User RobertoS
(elder) Sun 19-Mar-17 09:29:02
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Re: When is FTTC not FTTC?


[re: WilliamGrimsley] [link to this post]
 
That could be it.

Kindness isn't going to cure the world of all its awfulness but it's a good place to begin. Daisy Ridley.
My broadband basic info/help site - www.robertos.me.uk. Domains, site and mail hosting - Tsohost.
Connection - AAISP Home::1 80/20. Sync 65618/13914Kbps @ 600m. BQMs - IPv4 & IPv6
Standard User witchunt
(member) Sun 19-Mar-17 09:53:12
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Re: When is FTTC not FTTC?


[re: alidaf] [link to this post]
 
It's possibly a duff DSLAM port. The router logs show it eventually making a VDSL connection so your line is definitely connected to a FTTC port
Standard User alidaf
(newbie) Sun 19-Mar-17 09:59:17
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Re: When is FTTC not FTTC?


[re: witchunt] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by witchunt:
It's possibly a duff DSLAM port. The router logs show it eventually making a VDSL connection so your line is definitely connected to a FTTC port

Could that port be in the exchange, or is it always in the cabinet?
I've had the port changed at least once. After one change my disconnections increased by a factor of 3 for almost a week until Openreach were called out again.
Standard User Zarjaz
(eat-sleep-adslguide) Sun 19-Mar-17 10:00:22
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Re: When is FTTC not FTTC?


[re: witchunt] [link to this post]
 
It's possibly a duff DSLAM port.

I agree there, or maybe a rectified split pair hence the turmoil between ADSL and VDSL signals ?

Which router is the OP using ? can someone else using the same router on FTTC see if the logs look the same please ?

Standard User Zarjaz
(eat-sleep-adslguide) Sun 19-Mar-17 10:01:14
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Re: When is FTTC not FTTC?


[re: alidaf] [link to this post]
 
You have FTTC, so the port in question will be in the cabinet.

Standard User witchunt
(member) Sun 19-Mar-17 10:01:39
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Re: When is FTTC not FTTC?


[re: alidaf] [link to this post]
 
It's in the DSLAM cabinet where the VDSL connection is made. It maybe the card is failing , which does happen
Standard User alidaf
(newbie) Sun 19-Mar-17 10:03:09
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Re: When is FTTC not FTTC?


[re: Zarjaz] [link to this post]
 
I'm using a Sky Q router.
Administrator MrSaffron
(staff) Sun 19-Mar-17 10:08:35
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Re: When is FTTC not FTTC?


[re: alidaf] [link to this post]
 
FTTC will have fibre to the cabinet, there are one or two with a microwave wireless backhaul but makes no difference to the VDSL2 side.

VDSL2 modems are backwards compatible with ADSL/ADSL2+ so when set to auto mode it would not surprise me to see logs trying VDSL2 first, if that fails to then try ADSL2+ modes, which is what the log is telling me.

Maybe the engineer was attempting to explain that maybe there is an issue with the splitters and some ADSL signal is bleeding through and needs that addressing.

The author of the above post is a thinkbroadband staff member. It may not constitute an official statement on behalf of thinkbroadband.
Standard User alidaf
(newbie) Sun 19-Mar-17 12:15:30
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Re: When is FTTC not FTTC?


[re: MrSaffron] [link to this post]
 
One of them said that he replaced a wire between the exchange and cabinet. He had to wait for someone to allow access to the tunnels. Another said that there was a difference in length between two wires between the exchange and cabinet. She used so much jargon in such a short space of time that I was left with shellshock!
Administrator MrSaffron
(staff) Sun 19-Mar-17 12:21:31
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Re: When is FTTC not FTTC?


[re: alidaf] [link to this post]
 
Only way replacing copper that is between exchange and cabinet should have an effect is the voice side and injecting noise affecting the VDSL2 side from cabinet onwards, but that should be removed by the filtering at the cabinets

One option is that you have a joint pillar which is between the home and the actual cabinet, only way to know is to say which exchange and cabinet number, and someone will point Streetview at where the cabinet actually is.

The author of the above post is a thinkbroadband staff member. It may not constitute an official statement on behalf of thinkbroadband.
Standard User eckiedoo
(fountain of knowledge) Sun 19-Mar-17 13:43:59
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Re: When is FTTC not FTTC?


[re: MrSaffron] [link to this post]
 
Could this be a faulty VDSL Filter in the FTTC Cabinet, in combination with ADSL still being linked in the Telephone Exchange (E-side), thus the Modem in his house, is being offered two signals, ADSL from the Exchange and VDSL from the FTTC Cabinet?
Standard User burakkucat
(experienced) Sun 19-Mar-17 23:06:02
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Re: When is FTTC not FTTC?


[re: eckiedoo] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by eckiedoo:
Could this be a faulty VDSL Filter in the FTTC Cabinet, . . .
Yes, a defective low-pass filter could possibly account for the symptoms so described.

100% Linux and, previously, Unix.
Standard User eckiedoo
(fountain of knowledge) Mon 20-Mar-17 07:18:52
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Re: When is FTTC not FTTC?


[re: burakkucat] [link to this post]
 
Thanks for confirming that possibility.

When a subscriber upgrades from ADSL to VDSL, what is "normal practice" in the Exchange?

Is the ADSL feed in the Exchange left physically connected; or is it disconnected; or otherwise "switched OFF"?

Edited by eckiedoo (Mon 20-Mar-17 07:20:16)

Standard User simon194
(experienced) Mon 20-Mar-17 09:53:51
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Re: When is FTTC not FTTC?


[re: Nightglow] [link to this post]
 
Sky modem/routers always try to establish a ADSL connection first before VDSL2. Guess it saves a bit of time just in case it's being used non-FTTC line.

Edited by simon194 (Mon 20-Mar-17 09:57:23)

Standard User RobertoS
(elder) Mon 20-Mar-17 10:10:28
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Re: When is FTTC not FTTC?


[re: simon194] [link to this post]
 
That isn't what the log in the OP's second post shows.

Not only that, but when it does try ADSL it does so for one minute 31 seconds before giving up. If all Sky FTTC connections took getting on for two minutes to negotiate sync there would be screams all over the internet.

Kindness isn't going to cure the world of all its awfulness but it's a good place to begin. Daisy Ridley.
My broadband basic info/help site - www.robertos.me.uk. Domains, site and mail hosting - Tsohost.
Connection - AAISP Home::1 80/20. Sync 65618/13914Kbps @ 600m. BQMs - IPv4 & IPv6

Edited by RobertoS (Mon 20-Mar-17 10:10:53)

Standard User WilliamGrimsley
(committed) Mon 20-Mar-17 10:24:20
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Re: When is FTTC not FTTC?


[re: RobertoS] [link to this post]
 
You got it! wink
Standard User Zarjaz
(eat-sleep-adslguide) Mon 20-Mar-17 11:45:42
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Re: When is FTTC not FTTC?


[re: eckiedoo] [link to this post]
 
It is usually left connected, but port switched off, until such time as the port is required elsewhere.

Standard User burakkucat
(experienced) Mon 20-Mar-17 16:50:17
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Re: When is FTTC not FTTC?


[re: eckiedoo] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by eckiedoo:
Is the ADSL feed in the Exchange left physically connected; or is it disconnected; or otherwise "switched OFF"?
The process of minimum intervention is followed. So the physical jumpering, connecting the exchange located MSAN to the circuit, is left in situ upon an end-user's upgrade from a G.992.5 to a G.993.2 based service. Obviously if that MSAN port is now required for a different end-user's service, the jumpers will be modified appropriately.

Hence it is quite possible for the G.992.5 signal to remain upon the circuit, event though a G.993.2 signal is now being injected at the cabinet. It really depends upon the "loosing" provider's mode of operation . . . if a change of service provider has also occurred.

The cabinet based low-pass filter will take care of the above scenario perfectly adequately.

The low-pass filter actually performs a number of functions:

(1) It prevents the E-side cabling acting as a bridge tap on the G.993.2, D-side based, circuit.
(2) It enables the voice-band signal (300 Hz to 3400 Hz, for telephony) to be extracted from/inserted into the G.993.2 circuit.
(3) It prevents any exchange based G.992.5 circuit, if still extant, from being extended to the end-users CPE.

100% Linux and, previously, Unix.
Standard User eckiedoo
(fountain of knowledge) Mon 20-Mar-17 18:45:33
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Re: When is FTTC not FTTC?


[re: burakkucat] [link to this post]
 
Thanks for the detailed reply.

Assuming the Filter-Link in the right-hand side of an Huawei FTTC Cabinet becomes faulty, that appears to be one possible way of how ADSL signals appear on what should be VDSL-only.

However, the probability seems very low.
Standard User burakkucat
(experienced) Mon 20-Mar-17 18:56:30
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Re: When is FTTC not FTTC?


[re: eckiedoo] [link to this post]
 
You are welcome.

100% Linux and, previously, Unix.
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