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Standard User Bill100
(newbie) Sun 19-Mar-17 16:52:25
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Pre-existing fibre


[link to this post]
 
Hi

We already have BT fibre in our premises from a leased line.

Would we be able to order FTTP over this line?

Bill
Standard User panda
(experienced) Sun 19-Mar-17 17:15:36
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Re: Pre-existing fibre


[re: Bill100] [link to this post]
 
Short answer - no.

Longer answer - They use different infrastructure and topology.
Your existing Leased Line fibre will be direct to a PoP for whatever service you have.

FTTC/P services use a 'spreading root' network to ultimately connect to a specific ISP handover point.

Why do you want FTTP if you already have a Leased Line?

Eats shoots and leaves.
Standard User RobertoS
(elder) Sun 19-Mar-17 17:28:15
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Re: Pre-existing fibre


[re: panda] [link to this post]
 
LOL
Because it's a heck of a lot faster and cheaper?

(In many cases).

Kindness isn't going to cure the world of all its awfulness but it's a good place to begin. Daisy Ridley.
My broadband basic info/help site - www.robertos.me.uk. Domains, site and mail hosting - Tsohost.
Connection - AAISP Home::1 80/20. Sync 65618/13914Kbps @ 600m. BQMs - IPv4 & IPv6

Edited by RobertoS (Sun 19-Mar-17 17:28:39)


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Standard User panda
(experienced) Sun 19-Mar-17 18:19:24
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Re: Pre-existing fibre


[re: RobertoS] [link to this post]
 
And no SLAs nor SLGs.

So what would be the cost to the user if there was no service for days/weeks?
LOL.

Eats shoots and leaves.

Edited by panda (Sun 19-Mar-17 18:20:19)

Standard User craski
(member) Sun 19-Mar-17 19:09:22
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Re: Pre-existing fibre


[re: RobertoS] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by RobertoS:
Because it's a heck of a lot faster and cheaper?
(In many cases).

Depending on which variant of FTTP you have, the connection can be allowed to drop to 40Mb or 70Mb throughput before it is considered a fault.

Zen Unlimited Fibre Office BQM
Standard User Michael_Chare
(fountain of knowledge) Sun 19-Mar-17 19:29:58
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Re: Pre-existing fibre


[re: Bill100] [link to this post]
 
If the monthly rental prices of Fibre on Demand don't put you off, you could try to get a quote and see what the outcome is.

Michael Chare
Standard User Bill100
(newbie) Mon 20-Mar-17 09:35:59
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Re: Pre-existing fibre


[re: Michael_Chare] [link to this post]
 
Thank you for your explanations.

I understand the point about the topology being different for leased lines, but the private circuit does not go down a totally separate physical route.

For example the fibre from my premises ends up in a node a few hundred metres away (500m I believe). At the node it is connected or spliced to another bit of fibre going to the POP which is the BT exchange, possibly with some other equipment in between along the way.

If I ordered FTTPoD they would reuse this 500m or so of fibre and connect it to a splitter in the node. I doubt very much they would dig in an entirely new fibre cable from the node when a servicable one already exists.

That set up would certainly qualify for native FTTP pricing after 3 years - so why not now? The FFTPoD charges are based on the costs of building the circuit from the node to the premises. This part already exists, and we have already paid for it when the fibre was installed in the first place.

So why should we effectively pay again? (Obviously some installation charge is reasonable (but at native FTTP levels.)
Administrator MrSaffron
(staff) Mon 20-Mar-17 09:39:46
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Re: Pre-existing fibre


[re: Bill100] [link to this post]
 
The path already exists for millions of premises, its the existing duct.

Only way to know what the charge will be is to actually order.

I very much doubt that the node you talk about is actually a splitter or aggregation node for the GPON GEA-FTTP network. Leased line infrastructure does not share the same fibre infrastructure as the GPON networks.

The author of the above post is a thinkbroadband staff member. It may not constitute an official statement on behalf of thinkbroadband.
Standard User Bill100
(newbie) Mon 20-Mar-17 10:41:49
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Re: Pre-existing fibre


[re: MrSaffron] [link to this post]
 
Yes I can see the point - the node is probably not set up for GPON at the moment.

I suspect it could easily be transformed into one though with a little willpower from the powers that be.

I guess there are thousands of such cases around the country - fibre infrastructure already deployed but unable to be used for standard FTTP.

If I placed a FTTPoD order, then potentially that node would be set up with GPON capability..... is that correct?
Standard User witchunt
(member) Mon 20-Mar-17 10:47:42
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Re: Pre-existing fibre


[re: Bill100] [link to this post]
 
No, they will build a new splitter node. Depending on where the headend for FTTP is and the network design , the splitter node may be nowhere near the existing fibre network.
Standard User baby_frogmella
(fountain of knowledge) Mon 20-Mar-17 11:49:07
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Re: Pre-existing fibre


[re: Bill100] [link to this post]
 
In that case you may want to place a FTTPoD order (assuming its available to you), after the survey is done Openreach should be able to advise you if all/most/any of the existing fibre infrastructure to your property can be used for a native FTTP connection. You will end up paying £250 for the survey if you pull out - you pay nothing up front. In the worst case you might be able to get FTTPoD for a reduced price but until the survey is done no-one can say for sure.

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Standard User AndyHCZ
(experienced) Mon 20-Mar-17 11:54:35
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Re: Pre-existing fibre


[re: baby_frogmella] [link to this post]
 
Ethernet circuits and FTTP/FoD aren't interchangeable.
Administrator MrSaffron
(staff) Mon 20-Mar-17 11:59:15
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Re: Pre-existing fibre


[re: Bill100] [link to this post]
 
1000's in a county of over 28,000,000 premises so while important to you, in the big picture its nothing.

Very much doubt the fibre would get reused, or any other elements, only useful part and its the expensive part is the ducting (not the duct itself which is cheap but the fact that a simple route already exists - but then this applies to millions of premises already)

A node would NOT be converted, the FoD order would be done to where the existing aggregation node is.

You can try and force them down the route you want, but by the time its diverged from the usual pattern the extra costs of doing something different will probably eat up any savings.

The author of the above post is a thinkbroadband staff member. It may not constitute an official statement on behalf of thinkbroadband.
Standard User baby_frogmella
(fountain of knowledge) Mon 20-Mar-17 12:01:16
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Re: Pre-existing fibre


[re: AndyHCZ] [link to this post]
 
Thanks, OP may not be in luck then.

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My Broadband Quality Monitor
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Standard User Bill100
(newbie) Mon 20-Mar-17 12:38:53
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Re: Pre-existing fibre


[re: MrSaffron] [link to this post]
 
Very much doubt the fibre would get reused, or any other elements, only useful part and its the expensive part is the ducting (not the duct itself which is cheap but the fact that a simple route already exists - but then this applies to millions of premises already)


I'm not sure the millions of premises bit is relevant. We are always told that the most expensive part of deploying fibre is the final run to the premises. It that is already in place, then the install costs should be *considerably* lower and should reflect the other costs of delivering bandwidth down that fibre.

And why do you say the fibre would not be reused?

You can try and force them down the route you want, but by the time its diverged from the usual pattern the extra costs of doing something different will probably eat up any savings.


If only it were possible to have a proper discussion with OR directly about this rather than having to go through some convoluted process through an ISP.
Administrator MrSaffron
(staff) Mon 20-Mar-17 12:47:14
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Re: Pre-existing fibre


[re: Bill100] [link to this post]
 
There are different types of fibre, do you know exactly what specification is installed and what they use for GPON?

The author of the above post is a thinkbroadband staff member. It may not constitute an official statement on behalf of thinkbroadband.
Standard User Bill100
(newbie) Mon 20-Mar-17 13:09:35
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Re: Pre-existing fibre


[re: MrSaffron] [link to this post]
 
Not sure what spec exactly we have ... how could I find out?
Administrator MrSaffron
(staff) Mon 20-Mar-17 13:10:06
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Re: Pre-existing fibre


[re: Bill100] [link to this post]
 
Usually stamped on the cables

The author of the above post is a thinkbroadband staff member. It may not constitute an official statement on behalf of thinkbroadband.
Standard User Icaras
(experienced) Mon 20-Mar-17 18:24:57
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Re: Pre-existing fibre


[re: Bill100] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by Bill100:
Thank you for your explanations.

I understand the point about the topology being different for leased lines, but the private circuit does not go down a totally separate physical route.

For example the fibre from my premises ends up in a node a few hundred metres away (500m I believe). At the node it is connected or spliced to another bit of fibre going to the POP which is the BT exchange, possibly with some other equipment in between along the way.

If I ordered FTTPoD they would reuse this 500m or so of fibre and connect it to a splitter in the node. I doubt very much they would dig in an entirely new fibre cable from the node when a servicable one already exists.

That set up would certainly qualify for native FTTP pricing after 3 years - so why not now? The FFTPoD charges are based on the costs of building the circuit from the node to the premises. This part already exists, and we have already paid for it when the fibre was installed in the first place.

So why should we effectively pay again? (Obviously some installation charge is reasonable (but at native FTTP levels.)


They're trying to be more flexible about this sort of thing nowadays and there are ongoing projects to try and see how existing fibres can be re-used. As you say they could just re-use part of the leased line fibre that you have. One thing that I did read recently is that to be re-used the fibre must have been installed after year 2000.

But in all likelihood as it stands at the moment they WON'T re-use some of your leased line fibre.

Edited by Icaras (Mon 20-Mar-17 18:26:51)

Standard User Bill100
(newbie) Tue 21-Mar-17 07:48:07
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Re: Pre-existing fibre


[re: Icaras] [link to this post]
 
Thanks Icarus that's a bit encouraging.

I should say that the current fibre was not actually installed for a leased line. It was originally installed to deliver an ISDN service (after 2000). It was then re-used for a leased line several years later.

So I suspect the only thing holding back a re-use for the purposes of FTTP is a lack of desire and perhaps commercial reasons.
Standard User WWWombat
(knowledge is power) Tue 21-Mar-17 17:11:20
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Re: Pre-existing fibre


[re: Bill100] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by Bill100:
So I suspect the only thing holding back a re-use for the purposes of FTTP is a lack of desire and commercial reasons


One "commercial reason" might be the principal difference between leased lines and mass-market products.

Leased lines are bespoke.

Mass market cheapness comes from deploying the same thing over and over, and having that one type to maintain for the next few decades.

To fit in with the latter concept, then think the other way around: not whether your line could be used for FTTP for you alone, but what would BT deploy to bring FTTP to your area for many. Your individual fibre really needs to match the intention for surrounding premises.

Your line would need to fit in with the same kind of connectorised DP with connectorised cables too. Or the same kind of manifold and blown fibre tubing. Then the fibres routed in a shared cable back to a splitter node (which would likely not be colocated with the aggregation node). And then shared fibre cables back to the aggregation node (which likely isn't colocated with the leased line nodes).

To turn your existing fibre into something useful for future FTTP (to more than just yourself), it needs to do 3 different jobs, none of which it is suited for. And if it can't be used to support others, or at least marry up with the same BFT or connectorised hardware, then it will remain forever bespoke.

One bespoke fibre does not a GPON distribution network make.
Standard User Bill100
(newbie) Tue 21-Mar-17 19:52:03
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Re: Pre-existing fibre


[re: WWWombat] [link to this post]
 
To fit in with the latter concept, then think the other way around: not whether your line could be used for FTTP for you alone, but what would BT deploy to bring FTTP to your area for many. Your individual fibre really needs to match the intention for surrounding premises.


Good point - no objection to that.

Your line would need to fit in with the same kind of connectorised DP with connectorised cables too. Or the same kind of manifold and blown fibre tubing. Then the fibres routed in a shared cable back to a splitter node (which would likely not be colocated with the aggregation node). And then shared fibre cables back to the aggregation node (which likely isn't colocated with the leased line nodes).


So the issue is that my single fibre could not be plugged into the splitter node unless it came back in a shared bundle? That could be the case if the fibre type was completely different , e.g. diameter, single mode/multi mode etc. If not, and I suspect the same single mode fibre is used fairly widely within BT, then the required "FTTP" connector could be spliced on to it - which is probably what they do with shared cable fibres anyway.

Even if that is not the case, then there should be some process to do so, even if it would not be done on a widespread basis - as this is fairly simple compared to re-running physical fibre.

Beyond the splitter node to the aggregation point there would be nothing non-standard.

One bespoke fibre does not a GPON distribution network make.

Indeed but it could be accomodated. And I wonder if you missed the point in my last post that this fibre wasn't specifically installed for a leased line...?
Standard User ian72
(eat-sleep-adslguide) Wed 22-Mar-17 08:24:48
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Re: Pre-existing fibre


[re: Bill100] [link to this post]
 
Even if that is not the case, then there should be some process to do so, even if it would not be done on a widespread basis - as this is fairly simple compared to re-running physical fibre.


The question is how many suitable dormant fibres are there that could be reused. If it is a relatively small number then defining the processes to deal with it may not be worthwhile - running a new fibre would potentially give better future supportability.

Also, BT are not offering FTTP in most areas - until they come up with a model that does (or that offers FTTPoD in a more cost effective manner) then they are not actually selling anything to most people that could resuse the fibre.
Standard User Bill100
(newbie) Wed 22-Mar-17 11:31:57
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Re: Pre-existing fibre


[re: ian72] [link to this post]
 
Also, BT are not offering FTTP in most areas - until they come up with a model that does (or that offers FTTPoD in a more cost effective manner) then they are not actually selling anything to most people that could resuse the fibre.


Yes that's the point... they should come up a better model for delivering FTTP and FTTPoD.

... and then they should offer FTTP to all customers that can currently order FTTPoD but already have fibre! Perhaps with a reasonable fibre re-use charge.

Then I would be happy.
Standard User AndyHCZ
(experienced) Wed 22-Mar-17 12:04:07
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Re: Pre-existing fibre


[re: Bill100] [link to this post]
 
No national operator would ever mix and match fibre networks. It's a recipe for disaster doing this.

FTTP has a required standard in terms of the equipment and cabling used. This will have all gone through extensive testing and be fit for purpose. Once you start joining old/new networks on an ad-hoc basis, you encounter all kinds of potential problems.
Standard User Rastus
(experienced) Thu 23-Mar-17 10:42:55
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Re: Pre-existing fibre


[re: AndyHCZ] [link to this post]
 
Not quite the same situation, but BT were involved in re-purposing this unused fibre cable! wink
Standard User Bill100
(newbie) Fri 24-Mar-17 20:23:16
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Re: Pre-existing fibre


[re: Rastus] [link to this post]
 
That's quite an undertaking and as they say:

"Where there's a will there's a way"
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