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Standard User rcoup
(newbie) Fri 12-Jan-18 16:44:27
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FTTP -> "Please pay £3500"


[link to this post]
 
So, FTTP became available in early November. We're about 50m from the exchange ("ESLIM") on an EO line. Yay, down with ADSL1! ADSLChecker says "WBC FTTP, 330/30". Choices for FTP provider were Zen & BT, since I wasn't a Plusnet subscriber. Went with Zen.

OpenReach guy came out in late November. Poked some blue string down the ducting from the house, then declared that the street box didn't have ducting connecting to the other street box with the fibre in it (buried armoured cable). Said someone would arrive to do some digging and duct it then he'd come back and hook it up. Spraypainted lines everywhere to mark it out.

Couple of days before Christmas an OpenReach contracted surveyor turned up. Said exactly the same thing. Diggers would chuck some new ducting down, and we're done. The proposed duct will run past other neighbours who are also ordering fibre too.

Last week I get an email saying installation would be completed by the 22nd.

Today I get an email saying:

Following your most recent site survey, additional charges have been identified due to the need for added installation tasks required to install fibre to (and into) your site.

The charges are as follows:

Survey 1 = 245.14
Duct Soft Surface (7M) = 201.53
Duct Carriageway (36M) = 4033.80
Total Cost: 4480.47

Openreach cover the first £1000, therefore the amount payable from yourself would be: £3480.47


Not sure where the distances came from but I'll check. Think it's more like 30m total, but whatever. None of it is on my property.

Feels like if my phone line failed between the street boxes they'd have to replace it? (in fact, they added ducting between my house & the street box in June because the existing armoured cable had given up). I can kind of understand paying for between my house and the street, but not between one bit of the street and another, all on their network. First person who orders pays for it all?!

I found a thread from 2014 discussing similar stuff, but I suspect the state of play may have changed since then?

Anyone encountered similar issues, and is there anything I can do about it? I have better things to do with £3K than give it to OpenReach to fix their network.

Edited by rcoup (Fri 12-Jan-18 16:45:40)

Standard User Andrue
(eat-sleep-adslguide) Fri 12-Jan-18 16:52:52
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Re: FTTP -> "Please pay £3500"


[re: rcoup] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by rcoup:
Anyone encountered similar issues, and is there anything I can do about it? I have better things to do with £3K than give it to OpenReach to fix their network.
Their network is not broken. You are asking them to upgrade it just for you.

---
Andrue Cope
Brackley, UK
Standard User RobertoS
(elder) Fri 12-Jan-18 16:54:11
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Re: FTTP -> "Please pay £3500"


[re: rcoup] [link to this post]
 
Cancel the order and wait till someone else has forked out.

A better idea might be to get a group letter or email sent to the CEO of Openreach, asking for the ducting costs to be spread. If everyone says no, tell them you are ducking out then as I suggested above, and then see what the others say.

My broadband basic info/help site - www.robertos.me.uk. Domains, site and mail hosting - Tsohost.
Connection - AAISP Home::1 80/20. 200GB. Sync 74496/13801Kbps @ 600m. BQMs - IPv4 & IPv6

Edited by RobertoS (Fri 12-Jan-18 16:55:44)


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Administrator MrSaffron
(staff) Fri 12-Jan-18 17:02:53
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Re: FTTP -> "Please pay £3500"


[re: rcoup] [link to this post]
 
Long shot but try again with BT Consumer, there is rumour of them swallowing the excess construction charges

Or if the neighbours are also directly buried and all wanting to order then group together and point out your £1,000 that Openreach will pay add up to cover the cost of putting in ducting.

The author of the above post is a thinkbroadband staff member. It may not constitute an official statement on behalf of thinkbroadband.
Standard User rcoup
(newbie) Fri 12-Jan-18 17:07:08
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Re: FTTP -> "Please pay £3500"


[re: MrSaffron] [link to this post]
 
Yeah, I know there are at least 2x others directly buried who have ordered, and the surveyor mentioned "the whole street is like this, seems like someone missed it when they were planning".

But considering you can't even _talk_ to OpenReach, how do I coordinate this sort of "I have 5x orders, so we're up to £5K" logic?
Standard User rcoup
(newbie) Fri 12-Jan-18 17:09:20
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Re: FTTP -> "Please pay £3500"


[re: Andrue] [link to this post]
 
I certainly didn't put armoured cable down the street. And I certainly didn't decide to offer FTTP instead of putting a cabinet at the exchange and doing FTTC.

Presumably they've already taken the additional Scottish Govt funding for providing broadband to EO lines, even though in reality we're being asked to pay for it.
Standard User RobertoS
(elder) Fri 12-Jan-18 17:33:43
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Re: FTTP -> "Please pay £3500"


[re: rcoup] [link to this post]
 
Openreach CEO contact details. Don't forget to read the Hints and Tips at the bottom.

My broadband basic info/help site - www.robertos.me.uk. Domains, site and mail hosting - Tsohost.
Connection - AAISP Home::1 80/20. 200GB. Sync 74496/13801Kbps @ 600m. BQMs - IPv4 & IPv6
Administrator MrSaffron
(staff) Fri 12-Jan-18 18:11:08
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Re: FTTP -> "Please pay £3500"


[re: RobertoS] [link to this post]
 
Which should work, or failing that me andrew@thinkbroadband.com and will pester away

Though CEO should be the best bet if it gets noticed

The author of the above post is a thinkbroadband staff member. It may not constitute an official statement on behalf of thinkbroadband.
Standard User Chrysalis
(legend) Fri 12-Jan-18 19:00:10
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Re: FTTP -> "Please pay £3500"


[re: rcoup] [link to this post]
 
4 grand for 36 metres?

Sky Fibre Pro BQM - IPv4 BQM - IPv6
Standard User AndyHCZ
(experienced) Fri 12-Jan-18 19:45:20
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Re: FTTP -> "Please pay £3500"


[re: Chrysalis] [link to this post]
 
How much do you think it should cost?

Digging up the road and burying ducting at 450-600mm is not a cheap process.
Standard User Chrysalis
(legend) Fri 12-Jan-18 19:48:08
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Re: FTTP -> "Please pay £3500"


[re: AndyHCZ] [link to this post]
 
not my line of work, but I dont recall seeing previous quotes that expensive per metre. Native FTTP isnt that expensive per metre either.

Sky Fibre Pro BQM - IPv4 BQM - IPv6
Standard User unknown101
(regular) Fri 12-Jan-18 20:01:18
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Re: FTTP -> "Please pay £3500"


[re: Chrysalis] [link to this post]
 
Sounds about right when 30 odd metres is in carriageway, carriageway is around £120 a metre to a civics contractors.

Openreach is a business and it isnít making a penny out of the connection, why should they pay for the works? Keep ADSL1 connection at no extra cost other than monthly rental and broadband cost.
Standard User AndyHCZ
(experienced) Fri 12-Jan-18 21:30:26
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Re: FTTP -> "Please pay £3500"


[re: Chrysalis] [link to this post]
 
The ECCs are set in stone - https://www.openreach.co.uk/orpg/home/products/prici...

The cost to lay new ducting in a carriage way is currently £112.05 a metre. This might seem like a lot, but when you consider the cost of getting a wayleave, permission to dig, closing a road/restricting access, doing the underground survey, digging 0.5m underground, the cost of the new ducting and then re-tarmacing, it's an expensive process.

I'm not sure what you mean by "Native FTTP isn't that expensive per metre". If the infrastructure to lay the fibre does not exist, it has to be built and the cost can be considerable.
Standard User Michael_Chare
(fountain of knowledge) Sat 13-Jan-18 01:00:08
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Re: FTTP -> "Please pay £3500"


[re: unknown101] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by unknown101:
Openreach is a business and it isnít making a penny out of the connection, why should they pay for the works? Keep ADSL1 connection at no extra cost other than monthly rental and broadband cost.
In the case there appears to be a claim that FTTP is available, presumably at the regular price.

Openreach do claim to be deploying FTTP. It is quite ridiculous, if having said that it is available, they then turn round and say 'but only if you pay £3500 to fix some problem' that they have. I suspect that broadband has kept the BT group solvent given the widespread availability of mobile phones.

Michael Chare
Standard User j0hn83
(committed) Sat 13-Jan-18 01:35:41
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Re: FTTP -> "Please pay £3500"


[re: Michael_Chare] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by Michael_Chare:
In reply to a post by unknown101:
Openreach is a business and it isnít making a penny out of the connection, why should they pay for the works? Keep ADSL1 connection at no extra cost other than monthly rental and broadband cost.
In the case there appears to be a claim that FTTP is available, presumably at the regular price.

Openreach do claim to be deploying FTTP. It is quite ridiculous, if having said that it is available, they then turn round and say 'but only if you pay £3500 to fix some problem' that they have. I suspect that broadband has kept the BT group solvent given the widespread availability of mobile phones.
It is available at the regular price.
There have always been ECC's with WBC FTTP, they just don't always apply. The average user has ducted/overhead wiring.

As pointed out above digging that deep for over 30m on a live carriageway is an expensive process.
Complaints should bemade to the BDUK scheme provider for doing half a job.

Why should Openreach get the bill? Why not force Virgin Media to come along and dig it up. Openreach is a profit making company like any other and absolutely shouldn't have to swallow this for every buried EO line.
Standard User MCM
(knowledge is power) Sat 13-Jan-18 01:37:28
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Re: FTTP -> "Please pay £3500"


[re: Michael_Chare] [link to this post]
 
I suspect that broadband has kept the BT group solvent given the widespread availability of mobile phones.
Covering ones costs is what keeps a company solvent hence their charge unreasonably large as it appears to be. With BT "swallowing" £1,000 of the cost it would still take paying for infinity 4 for six or seven years to cover just BT's installation costs let alone the cost of servicing the connection.

Perhaps rather than moaning at BT we should have a go at those carrying out the civils.
Standard User MatHal
(newbie) Sat 13-Jan-18 09:32:53
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Re: FTTP -> "Please pay £3500"


[re: rcoup] [link to this post]
 
Using BT's logic the first person to use a new train has to pay for the carriage!

Report this to the regulator and to your MP, it's an absolute disgrace (and always has been) that BT charge any form of 'connection' charge.

Most businesses accept that they need to provide and pay for the infrastructure before they can start recouping that by charging customers. This sort of thing started when BT was a state-owned monopoly and should have been sorted out when the company was sold off.
Standard User astateoftrance
(fountain of knowledge) Sat 13-Jan-18 10:16:45
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Re: FTTP -> "Please pay £3500"


[re: MatHal] [link to this post]
 
If this is WBC FTTP and part of BDUK funding then there should be absolutely no charge for any work done up to the person's property. It would be reasonable to charge for the connection crossing the person's property. That's how I see it.
Standard User AndyHCZ
(experienced) Sat 13-Jan-18 10:26:26
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Re: FTTP -> "Please pay £3500"


[re: MatHal] [link to this post]
 
I am not quite sure why you find it a disgrace that BT charge any form of a 'connection' charge. This has been standard practice for decades and it is regulated by OFCOM. Most connection charges are absorbed by the Communication Provider.

In this case, the issue is not the connection charge. It is the Excess Construction Charges, which are there when additional infrastructure is required to be built to provide a new service to a premises. Openreach will cover the first £1,000.00 of ECCs for Brownfield FTTP. Beyond that, it is chargeable to the CP who places the order.

If the FTTP was completed as part of BDUK Scotland, then it is something that they need to raise with BT. If it was commercial deployment, I would place an order with BT Consumer who would most likely absorb the ECCs themselves.

Edited by AndyHCZ (Sat 13-Jan-18 10:26:57)

Administrator MrSaffron
(staff) Sat 13-Jan-18 10:28:27
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Re: FTTP -> "Please pay £3500"


[re: j0hn83] [link to this post]
 
Its not just Openreach at this game...

Gigaclear have distance based install charges, DIY £100 but someone doing it starts at £200

NOTE: For those saying BDUK project should cover it, they usually have a £1700 budget limit per premise, though this is changing in some phase II projects

In this case the key is whether the ducting would be used by others, and if that is the case a combined order by getting a provider to cluster the orders, or some pestering by someone like me or personal to CEO might help.

The author of the above post is a thinkbroadband staff member. It may not constitute an official statement on behalf of thinkbroadband.
Standard User Chrysalis
(legend) Sun 14-Jan-18 00:41:45
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Re: FTTP -> "Please pay £3500"


[re: unknown101] [link to this post]
 
well first to answer your question, openreach are the ones who will own the installed fibre and be able to sell services again and again on that fibre for the life of the fibre. That is a pretty big reason why they should pay for it. Its a bit like me buying a car but then having to pay to rent it out as well.

However the FTTPoD design is not what I was questioning, simply the size of the costs.

I see its now been explained that costs are apparently much higher when its under a carriageway. I never suggested openreach are ripping someone off (by charging excessive amounts per the cost to themselves), but rather than it seems there is improvements still to be made in efficiencies. Just install that 36m overhead if the underground cost is excessive. Also why is digging up even required? if they have proper underground infrastructure already in place which is well maintained (which it should be), then the fibre can simply be pushed, pulled or blown through.

If it were me I wouldnt even consider paying thousands for infrastructure in which I have no ownership claim to, if the FTTP was essential I would consider installing my own FTTP cable instead that I own (since I am paying the full cost anyway for the works) and then leasing that cable back to openreach or another telco which could be used to provide broadband services on.

Sky Fibre Pro BQM - IPv4 BQM - IPv6

Edited by Chrysalis (Sun 14-Jan-18 00:46:40)

Standard User mlmclaren
(knowledge is power) Sun 14-Jan-18 04:10:29
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Re: FTTP -> "Please pay £3500"


[re: rcoup] [link to this post]
 
It's good to see our national providers got [censored] covered....

Dum Di Dum Di Dum Di Dum
Standard User AndyHCZ
(experienced) Sun 14-Jan-18 11:07:59
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Re: FTTP -> "Please pay £3500"


[re: Chrysalis] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by Chrysalis:
well first to answer your question, openreach are the ones who will own the installed fibre and be able to sell services again and again on that fibre for the life of the fibre. That is a pretty big reason why they should pay for it. Its a bit like me buying a car but then having to pay to rent it out as well.


Complete nonsense. If you go to any utility company and ask them to provide a new service, they will check whether the existing infrastructure can support this. If it can't and new infrastructure is needed, they will charge for it.

In reply to a post by Chrysalis:
I see its now been explained that costs are apparently much higher when its under a carriageway. I never suggested openreach are ripping someone off (by charging excessive amounts per the cost to themselves), but rather than it seems there is improvements still to be made in efficiencies.


Where can there be improvements in efficiencies? If the OP went to a public work's contractor and ask for a quotation for the work to be done, I can almost guarantee it would be significantly more expensive and he wouldn't get the £1,000 contribution from Openreach.

In reply to a post by Chrysalis:
Just install that 36m overhead if the underground cost is excessive.


It's not that simple. Planning regulations restrict the use of overhead cables in many areas now, so this is likely to be an issue.

Also, I doubt the home owners in the neighbourhood would be particularly happy with the sudden installation of multiple telegraph poles outside of their properties.

In reply to a post by Chrysalis:
Also why is digging up even required? if they have proper underground infrastructure already in place which is well maintained (which it should be), then the fibre can simply be pushed, pulled or blown through.


Ducting has only really been used in the last 20-30 years for new properties. Before then it was common to lay telecoms cable directly in the earth.

Even new builds, some developers have laid cable directly in earth (presumably to save cost).

In reply to a post by Chrysalis:
If it were me I wouldnt even consider paying thousands for infrastructure in which I have no ownership claim to, if the FTTP was essential I would consider installing my own FTTP cable instead that I own (since I am paying the full cost anyway for the works) and then leasing that cable back to openreach or another telco which could be used to provide broadband services on.


How would you install your own FTTP cable in a public road? The council would never allow this.

If it's private land, then it's a different story and Openreach do allow people to install ducting to their specification. However, when it comes to carriageways, there are a whole list of reasons why a council would never let someone randomly start digging to install ducting and a fibre cable.
Administrator MrSaffron
(staff) Sun 14-Jan-18 17:16:30
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Re: FTTP -> "Please pay £3500"


[re: AndyHCZ] [link to this post]
 
Option is neighbour can get it, install at that property and run ethernet across the garden to your house...

The author of the above post is a thinkbroadband staff member. It may not constitute an official statement on behalf of thinkbroadband.
Standard User AndyHCZ
(experienced) Sun 14-Jan-18 17:30:10
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Re: FTTP -> "Please pay £3500"


[re: MrSaffron] [link to this post]
 
Or just order from BT Retail and hope they absorb the cost (I imagine it is likely they would).

If you really don't want BT Retail, you could encourage a neighbour to order/upgrade or place an order with them and cancel within the 14 day cooling off period.
Standard User MatHal
(newbie) Mon 15-Jan-18 17:25:53
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Re: FTTP -> "Please pay £3500"


[re: astateoftrance] [link to this post]
 
That fact that this has become industry practice and has been going on for decades with government endorsement is precisely why this practice is a disgrace. As I said, it originates with the government-owned monopoly that became BT.

Telecomms companies should never be allowed to charge customers fees for building company infrastructure.
I can see the point that perhaps a realistic charge could be made for providing the connection on the customers' premises but only with the condition that customers were allowed to provide that part of the line themselves.
Standard User AndyHCZ
(experienced) Mon 15-Jan-18 17:55:05
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Re: FTTP -> "Please pay £3500"


[re: MatHal] [link to this post]
 
I guess you would take offence that if you built a new house, the water, gas and electricity boards would all charge you to connect your property to their grids. This charge is essentially to build the infrastructure to connect you to their networks.
Administrator MrSaffron
(staff) Mon 15-Jan-18 21:53:56
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Re: FTTP -> "Please pay £3500"


[re: MatHal] [link to this post]
 
You said NEVER, so how will a company ever recoup the cost of rolling out infrastructure?

The author of the above post is a thinkbroadband staff member. It may not constitute an official statement on behalf of thinkbroadband.
Standard User Zarjaz
(eat-sleep-adslguide) Tue 16-Jan-18 06:03:59
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Re: FTTP -> "Please pay £3500"


[re: MrSaffron] [link to this post]
 
I wonder also if the poster has considered how much insurance is needed to do things like provide duct through public footpaths and roads ?

Standard User jabuzzard
(regular) Tue 16-Jan-18 11:29:37
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Re: FTTP -> "Please pay £3500"


[re: j0hn83] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by j0hn83:
As pointed out above digging that deep for over 30m on a live carriageway is an expensive process.


Then perhaps they should use any of the myriad of technologies that exist which don't involve digging the road up to get from one side to the other.

Part of the problem with a BT lead FTTP role out is the costs due to a highly conservative approach to doing the civils. When they where first doing FTTP they would insist on putting new ducting to your house because for some reason it was impossible to reuse the existing ducting that your existing telephone line was in. Not sure if this is still the case but the total lack of imagination on the part of BT/Openreach is pushing the cost up much higher than it needs to be.
Administrator MrSaffron
(staff) Tue 16-Jan-18 11:34:46
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Re: FTTP -> "Please pay £3500"


[re: jabuzzard] [link to this post]
 
Your scenario is not the current case and has not been the case for some time.

The author of the above post is a thinkbroadband staff member. It may not constitute an official statement on behalf of thinkbroadband.
Standard User Gadget
(committed) Tue 16-Jan-18 11:56:01
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Re: FTTP -> "Please pay £3500"


[re: jabuzzard] [link to this post]
 
could you perhaps name just three?
Standard User MHC
(sensei) Tue 16-Jan-18 12:02:51
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Re: FTTP -> "Please pay £3500"


[re: jabuzzard] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by jabuzzard:
In reply to a post by j0hn83:
As pointed out above digging that deep for over 30m on a live carriageway is an expensive process.


Then perhaps they should use any of the myriad of technologies that exist which don't involve digging the road up to get from one side to the other.


What are these miracle technologies?


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

M H C


taurus excreta cerebrum vincit
Standard User mpellatt
(member) Tue 16-Jan-18 12:18:46
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Re: FTTP -> "Please pay £3500"


[re: MatHal] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by MatHal:
Telecomms companies should never be allowed to charge customers fees for building company infrastructure.

And the other utility companies ? Gas ? There's millions of households and businesses who would absolutely love this utopian principle to be applied to all utilities. No more smelly oil or eye-wateringly expensive bottled gas.
Standard User rcoup
(newbie) Tue 16-Jan-18 12:31:55
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Re: FTTP -> "Please pay £3500"


[re: MHC] [link to this post]
 
What are these miracle technologies?

Directional drilling "moles" are very common in other countries for running comms/power/water/etc in urban areas, and there are a number of small/portable models for small-scale jobs. For fibre/comms ducts under roads/pavements/driveways microtrenching (ie. 20-40mm wide "cuts" 100-300mm deep) is used too, they effectively just do an epoxy/grout job to fill them in ó quick and painless. Of course all depends on the situation, but there are practical solutions out there beside "digging a 1-foot-wide trench and patching it with bitumen".

Source: my brother is a civils contractor in New Zealand.
Standard User rcoup
(newbie) Tue 16-Jan-18 12:39:04
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Re: FTTP -> "Please pay £3500"


[re: MrSaffron] [link to this post]
 
Thanks, doing some investigations with the neighbours at the moment then figuring out what they've encountered and some next steps.

Cancelling & retrying with BT and hoping some magical pixie will cover it appears to be a bit of a consensus here (though I don't understand why they would unless there's a big pile of govt funding they have which no other ISP does).
Standard User MHC
(sensei) Tue 16-Jan-18 12:51:07
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Re: FTTP -> "Please pay £3500"


[re: rcoup] [link to this post]
 
BT are restricted in what they can do by legislation, local by-laws and inter-utility agreements.

Moles cannot be used as there are too many other services under roads - most of which are not accurately identifiable.

Micro trenching would not be suitable for three reasons - firstly, telco cable need to be a minimum of 450mm below the finished surface, secondly, 20-40mm may be enough for one fibre bundle but in almost every case there is a requirement for several or future expansion and thus the use of 100 or 150mm ducts. Finally, there is no visibility of any other service pipes or cables running in that location and that could include power.

There is also a requirement to lay marker tape above the services, neither moling or microtrenching can provide that additional protection.


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

M H C


taurus excreta cerebrum vincit
Standard User rcoup
(newbie) Tue 16-Jan-18 12:57:05
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Re: FTTP -> "Please pay £3500"


[re: MatHal] [link to this post]
 
Personally I don't have a big problem paying for connections to new developments, or anything that happens on a new property. Part of the cost of building a $00K house or a $M development is getting power/water/comms/roads/etc connected to it.

Payback period for a lot of infrastructure upgrades is in the decades range, that's why it's partially funded by government ó it doesn't make any sense on an individual user-pays basis, the overheads are too high (and it's not like as an individual I have the option of paying back the upfront costs over decades either, is it?). And sure, some properties will cost a bit more, others will cost less.

This is all even more relevant for infrastructure upgrades ó there's zero commercial reason for OpenReach to put any fibre outside dense city centres without govt funding, but as a country we're shooting ourselves in the foot long-term if we don't prioritise connectivity, and it's worth doing.

What I do have a problem with in this case is the taxpayer paying for more properties to be connected to fibre via the above mechanisms, but it turns out in practise that they're not actually connected at all. If you live right next door to their drop-point you can get connected ó everyone else has to build out the network on an individual basis. Yet the "we've connected 20 more properties in this street" funding has been handed over.
Administrator MrSaffron
(staff) Tue 16-Jan-18 13:04:22
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Re: FTTP -> "Please pay £3500"


[re: rcoup] [link to this post]
 
If they do absorb its not to do with govt funding, but just a willingness to gamble on you being a decade or more long customer, i.e. massive operators can take on costs like this and spread them across the whole customer base more easily

i.e. one reason perhaps why BT Consumer pricing is not ultra competitive

The author of the above post is a thinkbroadband staff member. It may not constitute an official statement on behalf of thinkbroadband.
Standard User rcoup
(newbie) Tue 16-Jan-18 13:07:58
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Re: FTTP -> "Please pay £3500"


[re: MHC] [link to this post]
 
Other countries & cities around the world have these exact same constraints...

Like everything else, they are choices and tradeoffs to consider, discuss and decide on, with appropriate mitigation measures. We shouldn't just say that the existing process is the only way because any new process is (by definition!) not the existing process.

If as a country we can install to many more properties for the same $ by adopting different techniques where it makes sense, but there's a slightly higher risk of future disruption, maybe that's a tradeoff we should consider? (Though there's zero reason for newly laid stuff not to be extremely accurately located).
Standard User ukhardy07
(knowledge is power) Tue 16-Jan-18 14:42:48
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Re: FTTP -> "Please pay £3500"


[re: rcoup] [link to this post]
 
My gut feeling is BT retail might just pay the costs, if there are challenges I and others here can link you to decent teams at BT who can look into what is and what is not possible

Faced with a complaint, they might come to an agreement of some sorts.

Edited by ukhardy07 (Tue 16-Jan-18 14:43:09)

Standard User simon194
(experienced) Tue 16-Jan-18 15:17:27
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Re: FTTP -> "Please pay £3500"


[re: MHC] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by MHC:
Moles cannot be used as there are too many other services under roads - most of which are not accurately identifiable.

... or even accurately mapped. A few years back they were replacing some gas mains in a main road where I live and they marked out on the road where all the services ran. They started digging and managed to cut through an LV duct that was 4 feet from where it was supposed to be on the maps.
Standard User Zarjaz
(eat-sleep-adslguide) Tue 16-Jan-18 15:38:47
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Re: FTTP -> "Please pay £3500"


[re: jabuzzard] [link to this post]
 
Itís not still the case.

Standard User Zarjaz
(eat-sleep-adslguide) Tue 16-Jan-18 15:42:17
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Re: FTTP -> "Please pay £3500"


[re: MHC] [link to this post]
 
I believe the market tape is only for electric, it certainly isnít used for Openreach ducts.

Standard User AndyHCZ
(experienced) Tue 16-Jan-18 15:42:23
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Re: FTTP -> "Please pay £3500"


[re: jabuzzard] [link to this post]
 
The original FTTP trial in the 1980s and then the trial in 2009/10 used existing ducting.
Standard User Zarjaz
(eat-sleep-adslguide) Tue 16-Jan-18 15:50:32
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Re: FTTP -> "Please pay £3500"


[re: MHC] [link to this post]
 
I suppose also, whilst not an excuse, a consideration ...

there has been much talk of forced duct sharing in recent years, you can see why a company might be reticent to just stump up and provide duct here there and everywhere gratis, when there is a good chance they will be forced to let every Tom, Dick, and OLO just ram what ever they wish up there shortly after.

Standard User MHC
(sensei) Tue 16-Jan-18 16:09:12
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Re: FTTP -> "Please pay £3500"


[re: simon194] [link to this post]
 
Exactly, and I wonder what the restoratio and compensation bill was.


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

M H C


taurus excreta cerebrum vincit
Standard User jabuzzard
(regular) Tue 16-Jan-18 16:09:23
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Re: FTTP -> "Please pay £3500"


[re: MHC] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by MHC:
Micro trenching would not be suitable for three reasons - firstly, telco cable need to be a minimum of 450mm below the finished surface, secondly, 20-40mm may be enough for one fibre bundle but in almost every case there is a requirement for several or future expansion and thus the use of 100 or 150mm ducts. Finally, there is no visibility of any other service pipes or cables running in that location and that could include power.


In which case Openreach should not be charging the end user. Either the duct is for the customer they are charging and them alone in which case the customer pays. Alternatively it is to overcome an issue that they are then going to use for multiple other users down the line in which case Openreach pay it all or at the very least the difference between using a cheaper technology,

As regards alternative technologies all the other countries have exactly the same issues as we have in the UK. There is nothing special about our roads and pavements that precludes there usage. I would also add there are a myriad of technologies to find out what is under the ground without actually digging it up.
Standard User ian72
(eat-sleep-adslguide) Tue 16-Jan-18 16:20:57
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Re: FTTP -> "Please pay £3500"


[re: jabuzzard] [link to this post]
 
BT don't have to provide so could refuse where costs are high.

The part I agree with you on is if these were part of BDUK rollout then there should have been something in the BDUK contracts to control additional costs to the consumer as if it is going to cost thousands then BT shouldn't get BDUK funding for it. But, I have no idea if the BDUK contracts have anything to this end.
Standard User rcfurse
(newbie) Tue 16-Jan-18 20:00:00
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Re: FTTP -> "Please pay £3500"


[re: ian72] [link to this post]
 
Find someone in the street you can see (up to 2km away) who has fibre to the house. Have a line installed there and pay for it, giving the householder £50 for time and electricity. Fit a Ubiquiti Nano beam on his house and yours (about £150) and you'll have fibre speeds. My fibre line terminates 1km away from me. Two dishes painted to blend in provide a link that has not failed (I put them and the router plus BT end equipment on a UPS)
Standard User Taras
(eat-sleep-adslguide) Wed 17-Jan-18 19:56:43
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Re: FTTP -> "Please pay £3500"


[re: MrSaffron] [link to this post]
 
to be fair, OR is a business, but neither us; via directly or indirectly (via bduk) should be paying for OR's previous cockups.

And if others in the same street are wanting to order, then it should be flagged, and or nagged at to the ceo..
Standard User AndyHCZ
(experienced) Wed 17-Jan-18 20:16:34
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Re: FTTP -> "Please pay £3500"


[re: Taras] [link to this post]
 
Who said this was a cockup? Not every cable laid by Openreach (or its predecessor) is ducted. When you go to rural areas, it's common in verges to find cables that were originally laid directly in earth.

The same goes with homes where the builders laid the telecoms cable.
Standard User Zarjaz
(eat-sleep-adslguide) Wed 17-Jan-18 20:18:05
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Re: FTTP -> "Please pay £3500"


[re: Taras] [link to this post]
 
But things change, when that copper was put it it was sufficient for the technology that existed at the time, and in many cases beyond expectations with FTTC.

Standard User partial
(experienced) Wed 17-Jan-18 20:35:23
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Re: FTTP -> "Please pay £3500"


[re: AndyHCZ] [link to this post]
 
>>Who said this was a cockup? Not every cable laid by Openreach (or its predecessor) is ducted. When you go to rural areas, it's common in verges to find cables that were originally laid directly in earth.

There's plenty of crazies advising and plenty of OLOs actually doing the same thing now in town. Fibre tubes buried straight in the ground unducted, very shallow and undetectable to common tracking tools. It'll end in tears.

Edited by partial (Wed 17-Jan-18 20:37:46)

Standard User Michael_Chare
(fountain of knowledge) Wed 17-Jan-18 20:51:50
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Re: FTTP -> "Please pay £3500"


[re: rcoup] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by rcoup:
This is all even more relevant for infrastructure upgrades ó there's zero commercial reason for OpenReach to put any fibre outside dense city centres without govt funding, but as a country we're shooting ourselves in the foot long-term if we don't prioritise connectivity, and it's worth doing.
I suspect the problem with Openreach is that their fibre costs are to high. Gigaclear can manage it.

Fibre is much more suitable than copper for broadband in rural and some urban areas because it does not suffer from distance attenuation and cross talk problems.

Michael Chare
Standard User Chrysalis
(legend) Wed 17-Jan-18 21:29:38
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Re: FTTP -> "Please pay £3500"


[re: AndyHCZ] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by AndyHCZ:
Complete nonsense. If you go to any utility company and ask them to provide a new service, they will check whether the existing infrastructure can support this. If it can't and new infrastructure is needed, they will charge for it.


Then they would get the same response from me.

End of the day I am not going to spend 1000s on something which I have no ownership of, that to me is ludicrous unless I had to do it as a means to make money (business transanction).

This 4k cost, how long would the job take, how does the costs break down, all questions to be asked when determining if its efficient as can be.

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Administrator MrSaffron
(staff) Wed 17-Jan-18 21:55:44
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Re: FTTP -> "Please pay £3500"


[re: Michael_Chare] [link to this post]
 
Gigaclear does have a higher install fee for everyone though, starting at £100 if you DIY from the pot

Maybe thats the answer Openreach to charge more across the board

Also for new entrants the need to show a profit are often non existent as the promise is of profits in a few years time, and early investors take the risk as the pay back can be very large if a company gets acquired

The author of the above post is a thinkbroadband staff member. It may not constitute an official statement on behalf of thinkbroadband.
Standard User Andrue
(eat-sleep-adslguide) Thu 18-Jan-18 08:48:17
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Re: FTTP -> "Please pay £3500"


[re: MrSaffron] [link to this post]
 
Plus Gigaclear don't have to provide a wholesale service so they get to keep all the profits whereas BT has to - potentially - split them with other retailers.

---
Andrue Cope
Brackley, UK
Standard User ian72
(eat-sleep-adslguide) Thu 18-Jan-18 09:50:12
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Re: FTTP -> "Please pay £3500"


[re: Chrysalis] [link to this post]
 
They aren't making you buy their service. If you were to build a house and didn't want to pay for utilities then you are welcome to live with no electric/gas/phone/water. They don't make you take their services - but if you want them then they have to be paid for.
Administrator MrSaffron
(staff) Thu 18-Jan-18 10:59:51
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Re: FTTP -> "Please pay £3500"


[re: Andrue] [link to this post]
 
Cough - there is a wholesale service if I recall Exa is one option, so more business focussed but don't think it is anywhere as complex as the arrangements Openreach has to adhere to

The author of the above post is a thinkbroadband staff member. It may not constitute an official statement on behalf of thinkbroadband.
Standard User Andrue
(eat-sleep-adslguide) Thu 18-Jan-18 12:28:44
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Re: FTTP -> "Please pay £3500"


[re: MrSaffron] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by MrSaffron:
Cough - there is a wholesale service if I recall Exa is one option, so more business focussed but don't think it is anywhere as complex as the arrangements Openreach has to adhere to
Ah, perhaps I'll rephrase the statement then:

'Unlike BT, which is forced to over a wholesale service at prices that encourage competition, Gigaclear has the freedom to choose whether or not to offer a wholesale service and can price it however they like".

- any better?

smile

---
Andrue Cope
Brackley, UK
Standard User Michael_Chare
(fountain of knowledge) Thu 18-Jan-18 17:14:04
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Re: FTTP -> "Please pay £3500"


[re: Andrue] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by Andrue:
Ah, perhaps I'll rephrase the statement then:

'Unlike BT, which is forced to over a wholesale service at prices that encourage competition, Gigaclear has the freedom to choose whether or not to offer a wholesale service and can price it however they like".

- any better?

smile
I suspect that offering a wholesale service is a condition where they have bid for local government contracts.

Michael Chare
Standard User Chrysalis
(legend) Sun 21-Jan-18 17:08:26
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Re: FTTP -> "Please pay £3500"


[re: ian72] [link to this post]
 
I know, I am just giving my view, on how I consider the deal been offered.

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