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Standard User Kail
(learned) Wed 18-Apr-12 21:02:21
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Bright Box faulty or just pants?


[link to this post]
 
Is my Bright Box faulty or just plain rubbish?

I recently switched from BT to Orange in February to save money on my broadband/phone deal. I was sent the new Orange Bright Box router when I joined. I replaced my BT HUB2 with the Bright Box, using the same cabling and filtered faceplate I had previously used and it synced at a slightly higher speed of 6368Kbps than the HUB2 did (the HUB2 had settled at 5920Kbps). The exchange is 20CN 8Mb ADSL only. I'm 1km from the exchange as the crow flies across a public park, 2km by road.

It spent the next week going up and down through the sync ranges and attempting to connect at some very high speeds. Eventually though it settle at the same speed the HUB2 had been using previously. Great, and I had a good many weeks of trouble free surfing through March. Well mostly, at one point we had no connection and Windows7 troubleshooter reported that the DNS server was not responding. I logged into the Bright Box and there did not seem to be any problem, it said it was connected. So I used the reboot option and when it reset it worked fine, I could browse the web again.

The DNS problem occurred again at the beginning of April. Thinking Orange may have a problem I manually put in the IP's of a couple of public DNS servers, but it did not work there was no connection even though the router again said it was connected. I rebooted the Bright Box and again it worked, I could browse the internet again. I then started to notice that MS Messenger would keep disconnecting. I had connection issues with Messenger in the past and an MS KB article recommended changing some TCP/IP settings in Win7 which had solved it. As Win7 establishes a new connection with fresh TCP/IP settings for each new network connection, I simply thought it was the old problem resurfacing because I had not altered the new TCP/IP settings. However, I eventually noticed that the Bright Box was re-syncing at the same time.

Then the broadband light started flashing (slowly) every time I tried to go on the internet. It was rock solid until I tried to open a web page or log in to another online service like Messenger, email, etc. It would take an age to re-sync and would only stay connected for a minute or two while I browsed, before doing it again. If it re-synced too high (one time it got to 7456kbps) Win7 would again report the DNS server was not responding. One day the wife tried to log in using Wi-Fi and it disconnected again. I got a call at work and she said that the broadband light was flashing again, it was still flashing when I came home 3 hours later. I simply switched it off, waited and turned it on again. Guess what it worked again.

I tried it in the test socket to rule out the faceplate filter and it still disconnected. At this point I was thinking the Bright Box had gone faulty. I dug out my old Netgear DG834v2, it connected at 4320kbps which of course killed my IP profile which dropped to 3.5Mbps according to BT's speed tester. I changed some settings and rebooted the Netgear and it connected at 6976Kbps and it stayed at that for over 2 days, the IP profile jumped to 6Mbps after the first 20 hours. It then dropped to 6528 kbps and stayed there, IP profile 5.5Mbps, rock solid. Everything seemed to work fine, however no Wi-Fi.

I've been able to run RouterStats on the Netgear. The SNR value goes to 0dB during the evening and returns to about 5-6dB during the day. The Bright Box stats screen had been reporting -1dB and -1.4 at one point, but until the disconnects it stayed around the 4dB-6dB most of the day. I can not run RouterStats on the Bright Box as the stats page has a dynamic url (the number on the end of the url keeps changing every time you refresh the page) and it seems to use javascript. Router Stats does not seem to be able to render a stats page that uses java, so it can not read the figures.

My line attenuation by router...BT HUB2 42dB, Bright Box 43dB, Netgear 44dB
I have the MTU at 1500 on the Netgear. It is limited to 1492 on the Bright Box.

BT's speed test has returned differing results,
2.48Mbps
4.92Mbps
1.45Mbps (Speed test Beta at same time 6.18Mbps)
6Kbps (after logging in using the BT domain the further speed test gets 50% complete and then fails due to unknown error)
581Kbps (Unknown error occurred after the further test was 96% complete)
333Kbps (Same error as before when doing further tests, Beta test shows no problem with 5.5Mbps)
3.53Mbps (Speed test Beta a moment later gave 5.69Mbps)

Other speed test sites including Thinkbroadband, speedtest.net show much higher figures of 4.5Mbps to 6Mbps. But retests moments later can be different by as much as 1Mbps or more on some occasions.

I decided to put the Bright Box back on and give it a second chance, just in case it was another problem on the line. True to current form it has started to go up and down through the ranges again. It makes it very difficult to run services like Messenger as you can not keep a constant connection and the IP keeps changing forcing the software to log in again. Constantly waiting for it to reconnect is a pain in the bum. As you can guess I am far from impressed with the Bright Box. It has re-synced 3 times while I've been typing this. I've composed this in OpenOffice before pasting into the web browser for posting. It would not have stayed connected long enough for me to log in, type and then post. Suffice to say I'm going back to the trusted Netgear for now.

I think it is faulty, but I would appreciate any ideas on what this could be.

Router Stats...

NETGEAR DG834v2 (when last connected)
System Up Time 125:59:45
Port Status TxPkts RxPkts Collisions Tx B/s Rx B/s Up Time
WAN PPPoA 724192 1182550 0 268 5906 72:50:01
LAN 10M/100M 2023720 1297369 0 5600 352 125:59:40
ADSL Link Downstream Upstream
Connection Speed 6528 kbps 448 kbps
Line Attenuation 44 db 14 db
Noise Margin 2147483647 db 27 db

ORANGE BRIGHT BOX (current)
Broadband Type: ADSL
Broadband State: Connected
Internet State: Connected
Time Connected: 00:31:36
Downstream Rate: 6080kbps
Upstream Rate: 448kbps
Status:
Configured Current
Line Status --- SHOWTIME
Link Type --- Interleaved Path
Operation Mode Automatic G992.1(G.DMT)
Data Rate Information:
Stream Type Actual Data Rate
Upstream 448 (Kbps.)
Downstream 6080 (Kbps.)
Defect/Failure Indication:
Operation Data Upstream Downstream
Noise Margin 26.0 dB 6.2 dB
Line Attenuation 28.0 dB 43.0 dB
Indicator Name Near End Indicator Far End Indicator
Output Power 12.0 dBm 19.9 dBm
Fast Path FEC Correction NA NA
Interleaved Path FEC Correction 1589 0
Fast Path CRC Error NA NA
Interleaved Path CRC Error 2 0
Loss of Signal Defect 11 0
Fast Path HEC Error STR NA NA
Interleaved Path HEC Error 28 0
Error Seconds 270 0
Statistics:
Received Cells 230
Transmitted Cells 231

NOTE: I was quicker to put the Netgear back to post this as Bright Box would not reconnect, Netgear connected at 6560Kbps. The Netgear fires up really fast and syncs in a few seconds and your away.

Edited by Kail (Wed 18-Apr-12 21:03:18)

ISP Representative UKDoc
(isp) Thu 19-Apr-12 11:55:49
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Re: Bright Box faulty or just pants?


[re: Kail] [link to this post]
 
Hello Kali,

The noise margin on your line for both routers is too high and will require some help from Orange to resolve the issue.

If you haven't already reported this issue, please call on 0844 873 8586*, or call 150 free from your Orange pay monthly mobile. We’re here from 7am-11pm, every day.

Best Regards

Gavin

* Calls from an Orange Home Phone are free. Calls from a BT landline or your second line (if you have one) cost 5.1p a minute. Calls from mobiles and other networks may vary. Calls may be monitored and recorded for training purposes.

Gavin
Orange Home Broadband

'Here to help'
The above post has been made by an ISP REPRESENTATIVE (although not necessarily the ISP being discussed in the post).
Standard User XRaySpeX
(eat-sleep-adslguide) Thu 19-Apr-12 12:48:35
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Re: Bright Box faulty or just pants?


[re: Kail] [link to this post]
 
BrightBox would seem to be faulty as Netgear OK (but no wireless).

Get Orange to replace and/or buy new Netgear DG834GT or DG834Gv4 on eBay or < £20.

1999: Freeserve 48K Dial-Up => 2005: Wanadoo 1 Meg BB => 2007: Orange 2 Meg BB => 2008: Orange 8 Meg LLU => 2010: Orange 16 Meg LLU => 2011: Orange 19 Meg WBC


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Standard User Kail
(learned) Sat 26-May-12 00:13:00
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Bright Box faulty so is Tech Support


[re: UKDoc] [link to this post]
 
I know this bumps and older post up the list but I have an update and the problem is not solved. Thanks for your suggestion Gavin(UKDoc) but things have not gone well. I have since had 3 conversations with Orange and I'm convinced I'm flogging a dead horse with these people.

Conversation 1...

I explained the problem about the Bright Box re-syning and going so fast that the stats page shows nothing be errored seconds and I have no internet. Also that it re-syncs in the middle of doing something (i.e. banking the other night) and now I've noticed that it randomly (no pattern I recognise) blocks traffic as well. IE and Messenger, Windows Live mail all say there is no connection from time to time, even though Windows is not reporting a problem and the Router reports that everything is fine.

He said there was an update and he would remotely send it and I had to press the reset on the back to get that to work. The on board software still reports that it is from November last year which if I remember correctly was what it said when I first got it, so what has been updated I don't know.

I also explained that I had tried all combinations of router and filter and that I thought the Bright Box was fault. He asked me to conduct at least 3 speed tests using BT's speedtester and call back again in the morning from an alternative number so they could test the line and look at the problem again as the call centre was about 10 minutes from closing.

Conversation 2...

I had to call during the evening after work but had time to conduct 3 tests an hour apart the previous night, 1 at lunch time and another early evening. They all fell in the range 4.38Mbps-4.53Mbps, it had resynced in the night but the IP profile was still 5Mbps. Not bad figures but in the real world web broswsing was veeeerrrrry slooooowwww, with some pages not loading at all. Though it might settle down, but I made the call to Orange with the speed test results, although surely they should get them from BT.

I spoke to another man that said I should change the filter, even though I had already done this all before he insisted on it. Compared to my faceplate filter the provided filters have always resulted in at least 0.5Mbps less in speed and that is what happened. He also told me to unplug the filter while it was all switched on and connected, and change it over quickly. I did this even though I believe it was not a very good way to do it as the exchange may interpret it as fault and set a lower sync speed. It did go slower down from 6.3Mbps to 5.3Mbps He kept telling me that I have a very good speed, I said I'm not disagreeing but the constant re-syncing was ruining my ability to use the service. I told him I think it is faulty as my Netgear seemed to hold the line well enough at a much higher speed. At one point he said I had a 2mb connection, like he was reading off another script, not sure why? He told me to call back latter before the call centre closed at 11pm to report any changes.

NOTE: I forgot to add that this call centre worker got me to change the settings on my Wi-Fi from channel 11 to 9 and 20Mhz to 40Mhz. He seemed to suggest that altering the Wi-Fi would make it work better. Go no problem with the Wi-Fi it's the ADSL that won't work properly!

Conversation 3...

I called back as asked just over an hour later as the Bright Box had re-synced a few times (AGAIN!) from 5664Kbps to 5696Kbps to 5856Kbps to 5568Kbps to 5600Kbps. It's has managed to hold that last speed for 1 hour now while I type this, wow! BTW I'm again typing this offline in OpenOffice before posting, just in case.

The man I spoke to this time said he would look at the notes and after a long period of silence (call centre background chatter) he said my connection was 2mb, eh? The other guy said that, what is going on? I corrected him and said the profile was 5Mbps, at least before the filter change earlier in the evening. I explained that the Bright Box appears to be faulty. He said please wait (more background chatter) and after a long wait, he hung up on me!

So, what do I do?

I copied the Bright Box log during 2 of the silly re-sync sessions it has had. 1st log covers just over 1 hour (19:06 to 22:14) on Monday May 21, it shows it loosing the connection 6 times. The 2nd log covers almost 3 hours (20:29 to 22:17) on Friday May 25, again it shows it loosing the connection 6 times in this period.

I've had this problem for a few months now and they don't believe me. The call centre staff are hopeless and clearly don't seem to know what they are doing. They seem to think off the shelf solutions like switch it off/on again is the answer. Between phantom updates (did he actually do anything, it was all rather quick and nothing changed), and insisting my connection is slower than it is then hanging up on me. There is no one else to speak to. What do I do? Any suggestions gladly accepted.

Please help!

NOTE: Gone back to Netgear router, I can not put up with the intermittent behaviour of the Bright Box even though I loose the Wi-Fi. The Netgear has synced at 6304Kbps and been rock solid for over 3 hours now, the Bright Box would have changed spped a few times by now.

Edited by Kail (Sat 26-May-12 02:53:49)

Standard User XRaySpeX
(eat-sleep-adslguide) Sat 26-May-12 11:50:56
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Re: Bright Box faulty so is Tech Support


[re: Kail] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by Kail:
There is no one else to speak to. What do I do?
Don't speak; write formal complaint!

However you have an obvious solution; use the Netgear and bin the DimBox.

1999: Freeserve 48K Dial-Up => 2005: Wanadoo 1 Meg BB => 2007: Orange 2 Meg BB => 2008: Orange 8 Meg LLU => 2010: Orange 16 Meg LLU => 2011: Orange 19 Meg WBC
Standard User ukhardy07
(experienced) Sat 26-May-12 12:35:06
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Re: Bright Box faulty or just pants?


[re: Kail] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by Kail:
Connection Speed 6528 kbps 448 kbps
Line Attenuation 44 db 14 db
Noise Margin 2147483647 db 27 db


Ok here we have a problem. The noise margin goes to this high figure when the noise margin goes below 0. It SHOULD NOT be doing this. A line will lose stability with a noise margin of around 1.5 db and below.

The noise margin should sync at 6db and move around between 5.5 and 6.5 db on a stable line. My noise margin varies between 5.8 and 6.2 dB. So no big variations.

I've been able to run RouterStats on the Netgear. The SNR value goes to 0dB during the evening and returns to about 5-6dB during the day. The Bright Box stats screen had been reporting -1dB and -1.4 at one point, but until the disconnects it stayed around the 4dB-6dB most of the day. I can not run RouterStats on the Bright Box as the stats page has a dynamic url (the number on the end of the url keeps changing every time you refresh the page) and it seems to use javascript. Router Stats does not seem to be able to render a stats page that uses java, so it can not read the figures.


You have said it yourself. The noise margin goes to -1 dB and - 1.4 dB... At anything below around 1.5 db the line can drop out and resync. Some lines even struggle to hold on at 3dB

Often however when the noise margin is so low - the line stays connected but the error build up is so high and therefore websites don't actually load.

I don't think the bright box is broken I just think it's more sensitive to the excessive noise on your line. The BT home hub is very good at holding onto a broadband connection even with a flappy noise margin.

Orange can increase your target noise margin to 9 dB or 12 dB which should prevent the noise margin going so low. This will cause you to loose speed BUT will increase the stability quite a lot. I think this is the answer to your problems.

If the noise margin is set to 15 dB target and the noise margin is then still dropping extremely low the ISP should send out an engineer.

Have orange increase the noise margin slowly. E.g. try 9 dB target, then 12 dB if it's still dropping, then 15 dB if it's still dropping.

Each increase will make you loose some sync speed.

Edited by ukhardy07 (Sat 26-May-12 12:37:48)

Standard User XRaySpeX
(eat-sleep-adslguide) Sat 26-May-12 15:59:03
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Re: Bright Box faulty or just pants?


[re: ukhardy07] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by ukhardy07:
Have orange increase the noise margin slowly.
Unfortuneately, getting blood from a stone!

Agree with rest of your analysis smile

1999: Freeserve 48K Dial-Up => 2005: Wanadoo 1 Meg BB => 2007: Orange 2 Meg BB => 2008: Orange 8 Meg LLU => 2010: Orange 16 Meg LLU => 2011: Orange 19 Meg WBC
Standard User Kail
(regular) Sat 26-May-12 21:47:01
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Re: Bright Box faulty or just pants?


[re: ukhardy07] [link to this post]
 
Thanks UKHardy07, your advise is sound but as XRaySpeX points out it is like getting blood from a stone.

I realise in hind-sight that even the first person I spoke to, as much as he sounded like he was listening, he was also following the same script that the other 2 where following. They suggested everything was fine and did not even know what speed my service was running at, so they clearly don't have relevant information at hand. It is impossible to deal with someone that will not actually act on what you are saying, and insists on doing things you have already done and other things that have no affect (like changing Wi-Fi settings).

Doing repeated line-tests from their end has the same result as most of the recent download tests, at the moment the test is made the line works well and the speed test results look good. So no apparent problem spotted and that is where I am suffering. They don't believe me and it is what I am experiencing (which they have not seen) against their data which is flawed because it is taken at a time the fault is not apparent.

They told me to call back when it happens. I did and they still don't believe me because by the time I get through the call centre menu and then explain it to them, there is no fault as the Bright Box has reconnected and runs fine for while (if only for a few minutes sometimes). If BT had passed along any data from the previous really slow speed tests conducted the other month then they would see there is a problem. They clearly have no access to records of my router disconnecting repeatedly or they would see that straight away and agree with me. They should have all the data and the answers instead of asking me to do silly filter changes and even more speed tests, which have already been done again and again.

In the end it comes down to the fact they will not listen and so asking them to change anything will not solve the problem. I might as well ask them to make pigs fly, the response would be lets conduct a speed test.

I am seriously exasperated and loosing my patients with Orange, I've never been treated with such disrespect by any company. To add to the problem I recently had post that said I was on an 18-month contract? I did not agree to any such contract and if I had known it was I would never had joined Orange in the first place, I think I have made a serious mistake.
Standard User Kail
(regular) Sat 26-May-12 21:52:58
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Re: Bright Box faulty so is Tech Support


[re: XRaySpeX] [link to this post]
 
Yes I will make a complaint as the situation is unacceptable.

Sadly I need Wi-Fi now, so the Netgear is not a long term solution but with cash in short supply for now it will have to do for a while. I'm not putting the Thick Box back on until they do something about it.

My question would be what is the modern wireless-N equivalent of the Netgear DG834v2?
Standard User E7er
(knowledge is power) Sun 27-May-12 10:20:58
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Re: Bright Box faulty so is Tech Support


[re: Kail] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by Kail:
Yes I will make a complaint as the situation is unacceptable.

Sadly I need Wi-Fi now, so the Netgear is not a long term solution but with cash in short supply for now it will have to do for a while. I'm not putting the Thick Box back on until they do something about it.

My question would be what is the modern wireless-N equivalent of the Netgear DG834v2?
Hi, try and use the Orange Bright Box Wireless router as the Wireless access point if it can be configured. wink

You disable the DHCP in Bright Box

Connect your Bright Box to Negear LAN to LAN.

http://i.dslr.net/pics/faqs/image93081.jpg

http://www.tested.com/news/how-to/298-how-to-use-an-...

http://www.homenethelp.com/web/howto/static-ip-addre...

Orange WBC 20 Mbps. Sync 11864 kbps Downstream, 1189 kbps Upstream.
Netgear DGN1000 ADSL2+ wireless N 150 Router supplied by Orange
BT Business Hub 2Wire 2700HGV v2 ADSL2+ Dual SSID wireless Router
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