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Standard User creative1
(newbie) Sun 13-Feb-11 18:55:08
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Jump in HEC errors


[link to this post]
 
Hi,
Since about 4pm today, i`ve been seeing a big jump in the amount of HEC errors, on the downstream. Usually, I would get at most, around 200 per day. I`ve been connected for 8 days now, and up until 4pm I only had 895 HEC errors.

Can anyone tell me if this is normal or not?

My stats so you can see for yourselves:

Mode: G.DMT
Type: ANNEX_A
Status: Showtime

Downstream Upstream
Rate (Kbps): 6240 kbps 448 kbps

SNR Margin (dB): 11.5 21.0
Attenuation (dB): 45.5 23.0
Output Power (dBm): 20.0 12.0

Super Frames: 41088439 41088431
RS Correctable Errors: 22957 52
RS Uncorrectable Errors: 27685 5

HEC Errors: 51696 6
Total Cells: 14311401 7701576
Data Cells: 80732662 10217259
Bit Errors: 0 0

Sorry if i`ve put this in the wrong place.
Standard User RobertoS
(sensei) Sun 13-Feb-11 21:41:28
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Re: Jump in HEC errors


[re: creative1] [link to this post]
 
Look at both lots of RS Errors as well.

Pity it is night-time, as a reconnection now will be slower than if you waited till tomorrow in the daytime. But my first reaction would be to turn the router off for a few minutes and see/post what the stats are like immediately after a restart.

Before restarting I would make sure all connections are secure, as in plug and unplug the filter to the socket, both ends of the ADSL cable from filter to router, all ethernet cables from the router, and all phones.

The noise margin points to some trouble in the past. I'd like to see it after what I just suggested, whether you do it now or tomorrow.

Nobody has accidentally connected something without a filter have they, when it normally goes through one? Might be worth a look round.

My broadband basic info/help site - www.robertos.me.uk
My domains,website and mail hosting - Tsohost. Internet connection - O2 Standard.
Standard User creative1
(newbie) Sun 13-Feb-11 22:07:31
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Re: Jump in HEC errors


[re: RobertoS] [link to this post]
 
Thanks for the reply.

I had no choice as my internet had disconnected!

My stats are now:

Mode: G.DMT
Type: ANNEX_A
Status: Showtime

Downstream Upstream
Rate (Kbps): 5088 kbps 448 kbps

SNR Margin (dB): 13.5 21.0
Attenuation (dB): 45.5 23.0
Output Power (dBm): 20.0 12.0

Super Frames: 1406 1406
RS Correctable Errors: 0 0
RS Uncorrectable Errors: 0 0

HEC Errors: 0 0
Total Cells: 14561692 7821178
Data Cells: 49 49
Bit Errors: 0 0

My logs showed up this error before it went off, if it means anything...

Virtual Circuits :
Test your Ethernet(1-4) Connection: PASS
Test ADSL Synchronization: PASS

INTERNET CONNECTIVITY CHECK
Test the assigned IP address: PASS
Ping ISP Default Gateway: FAIL
Ping Preferred DNS server: PASS

My speeds were also slow and I got the following result from BT speedtester:

Download speedachieved during the test was - 822 Kbps
For your connection, the acceptable range of speeds is 600-7150 Kbps.
Additional Information:
Your DSL Connection Rate :6240 Kbps(DOWN-STREAM), 448 Kbps(UP-STREAM)
IP Profile for your line is - 5500 Kbps

I`ve recently had a fault on my line. It was a voice fault, and the engineer changed the cable from the pole to my property. Before i`d been seeing a lot of disconnections. I don`t hear any noise on the line now though, so this may be a new issue I have.

He did at the time mention that some of the ducts had collapsed around here, and sure enough they had been digging up the road from two houses down from me. Could this be part of my problem?( These house were further away from the exchange from me)

Sorry for the long post, and thanks for any help you can offer.

Edited to add:
I`m now using a brand new router and filter, and i`m in the test socket. Stayed in the test socket to be sure that my problem had gone. Also using a brand new corded phone, and had noticed that I get a couple of upstream errors when it rings in, but not sure on an outgoing call.

I will have a go properly with just the phone tomorrow, as I don`t want to make things worse, given the time of night.

Edited by creative1 (Sun 13-Feb-11 22:11:24)


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Standard User RobertoS
(sensei) Sun 13-Feb-11 22:15:22
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Re: Jump in HEC errors


[re: creative1] [link to this post]
 
Not sure what to say, except things seem to be going downhill fast. For example your IP Profile will fall again within minutes.

You don't happen to have another router to try do you? Just in case yours is dying. Also spare filters? That can fail as well. Apart from that, not a lot I can suggest right now. It sounds like a line fault somewhere, period. Engineer needed.

You need to raise this as a problem with your ISP. Which is it?

My broadband basic info/help site - www.robertos.me.uk
My domains,website and mail hosting - Tsohost. Internet connection - O2 Standard.
Standard User creative1
(newbie) Sun 13-Feb-11 22:20:42
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Re: Jump in HEC errors


[re: RobertoS] [link to this post]
 
I have another new filter that I could try, and a new Netgear DGN1000, although the wireless doesn`t hold on that for me. That`s why I invested in the router i`m using now, and it`s only two weeks old, so doubt that`s the issue.

I`m with Virgin Media for my sins. Although I find their UK support very good!

I was really hoping this was over with, but I fear you are right, and I need another engineer out.

The errors kept coming and clearing, before the disconnect occured. Seems my stats only show up to 50000 before they clear.

Edit:
Must have been more than 50000, as my first stats show over that amount.

Edited by creative1 (Sun 13-Feb-11 22:23:26)

Standard User RobertoS
(sensei) Sun 13-Feb-11 22:27:22
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Re: Jump in HEC errors


[re: creative1] [link to this post]
 
frown
Sounds nasty.

Worth a try with the old router and a new filter though. Callouts can be very expensive if it turns out to be your stuff.

Also electronic equipment can be odd. Whereas mechanical stuff wears out, a lot of electronics go on for ever once they get through the early days.

My broadband basic info/help site - www.robertos.me.uk
My domains,website and mail hosting - Tsohost. Internet connection - O2 Standard.
Standard User creative1
(newbie) Sun 13-Feb-11 22:35:55
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Re: Jump in HEC errors


[re: RobertoS] [link to this post]
 
Just a thought, but a while back we had issues with an electric fault around this area, as in it would go on and off for a few seconds. Not sure if they ever found the cause of the problem, and I may email them to find out, before anything else.

Last week, we had a couple of outages with electric, so may be worth a shot.

You reminded me when you mentioned electrical equipment.

I`ve not noticed my equipment causing issues, and had a disconnect before with everything but the internet off. I was at the time, trying to rule it all out, although that doesn`t mean it isn`t to blame. This was a suggestion from VM, as they didn`t want to send an engineer out, and have to charge me.

Before the voice fault, i`d have a broadband engineer out, who discovered errors in their thousands on the upstream. I`m not seeing many of them now though, so assume that was sorted at the time.

This has been ongoing for months now, and i`m wondering if maybe a new line would be an idea?
Standard User RobertoS
(sensei) Mon 14-Feb-11 09:20:29
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Re: Jump in HEC errors


[re: creative1] [link to this post]
 
A new line is an expensive way at this stage, and no guarantee it would solve it. Far better to get Openreach to find the problem and if it isn't easily repaired then to swap you to a different pair. That's free.

Let us know what you find out.

My broadband basic info/help site - www.robertos.me.uk
My domains,website and mail hosting - Tsohost. Internet connection - O2 Standard.
Standard User creative1
(newbie) Mon 14-Feb-11 09:23:42
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Re: Jump in HEC errors


[re: RobertoS] [link to this post]
 
Well I checked with just the phone this morning, and have some noise on the line, although nothing too bad. Seems it hasn`t been cleared like I thought it had, and i`ll have to get onto BT again.

My stats this morning are:

Mode: G.DMT
Type: ANNEX_A
Status: Showtime

Downstream Upstream
Rate (Kbps): 6432 kbps 448 kbps

SNR Margin (dB): 12.5 20.0
Attenuation (dB): 45.0 23.0
Output Power (dBm): 20.0 12.0

Super Frames: 4134 4134
RS Correctable Errors: 32 0
RS Uncorrectable Errors: 0 0

HEC Errors: 0 0
Total Cells: 44 37
Data Cells: 44 37
Bit Errors: 0 0

Again thanks for the reply.
Standard User RobertoS
(sensei) Mon 14-Feb-11 10:08:23
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Re: Jump in HEC errors


[re: creative1] [link to this post]
 
and have some noise on the line, although nothing too bad
There shouldn't be any as long as you only have a corded phone into the test socket.

My broadband basic info/help site - www.robertos.me.uk
My domains,website and mail hosting - Tsohost. Internet connection - O2 Standard.
Standard User creative1
(newbie) Mon 14-Feb-11 11:32:40
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Re: Jump in HEC errors


[re: RobertoS] [link to this post]
 
Appears that one was my fault as it happened again so tried another corded phone, and it wasn`t there with that, but was with the other.

Shows how careful we need to be with these checks to avoid being charged!

I have two phones that are the same, except that one is new, and the other is older. Seems I got the two mixed up.
Standard User RobertoS
(sensei) Mon 14-Feb-11 13:29:31
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Re: Jump in HEC errors


[re: creative1] [link to this post]
 
So which phone causes the noise, and do the HEC errors occur if the noisy phone is not present?

My broadband basic info/help site - www.robertos.me.uk
My domains,website and mail hosting - Tsohost. Internet connection - O2 Standard.
Standard User creative1
(newbie) Mon 14-Feb-11 16:15:48
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Re: Jump in HEC errors


[re: RobertoS] [link to this post]
 
I`ve seen to it that the faulty phone ended up in the bin where it belongs!

The problem i`m going to have, is that i`ll need to now wait and see how the errors go, as it can be fine for a while before I have issues again. I`m not sure of the error count from this morning, as I never thought to check a before and after, but at the moment I have recorded them. I`ll keep an eye on them now and see what happens.

They certainly aren`t mounting up at the moment, but this is typical for my line at times.
Standard User creative1
(newbie) Mon 14-Feb-11 20:53:26
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Re: Jump in HEC errors


[re: creative1] [link to this post]
 
My errors at the moment are:

RS Correctable Errors: 64642 1
RS Uncorrectable Errors: 12 1

HEC Errors: 137 1

These are up from earlier:

RS Correctable Errors: 3464 0
RS Uncorrectable Errors: 2 0

HEC Errors: 44 0

Not as bad as last night thankfully, but this is how mine line has been a lot lately. The connection could hold for a few days, or sometimes less than a couple of hours. The errors are sometimes very little, or the jump up in the hundreds, etc...

I`ve also found out that my electric will be off most of the day tomorrow (from 9am until 4pm), as they are doing work around here. This may be what the problem is, so i`m going to hold off and see what happens once it`s back on again. Also gives me a chance to sit with just the phone, on a quiet line test, and see if I can pick anything up (obviously won`t be happening all day though).

If any problems occur after the electricity is back on, i`ll either be onto BT (if I pick up noise with only the phone), or my ISP to raise this as a fault.
Standard User creative1
(newbie) Tue 15-Feb-11 16:04:49
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Re: Jump in HEC errors


[re: creative1] [link to this post]
 
Electric back on, and they were cutting down some tree branches, so no idea if there will be any difference.

My stats after switching back on are:

Mode: G.DMT
Type: ANNEX_A
Status: Showtime

Downstream Upstream
Rate (Kbps): 6656 kbps 448 kbps

SNR Margin (dB): 12.5 20.0
Attenuation (dB): 43.5 23.0
Output Power (dBm): 20.0 12.0

Super Frames: 477 477
RS Correctable Errors: 0 0
RS Uncorrectable Errors: 0 0

HEC Errors: 0 0
Total Cells: 2 4
Data Cells: 2 4
Bit Errors: 0 0

No noise heard on the phone line today while I was having a listen, so that`s all clear.
Standard User RobertoS
(sensei) Tue 15-Feb-11 16:09:33
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Re: Jump in HEC errors


[re: creative1] [link to this post]
 
Fingers crossed. Though not over-hopeful.

My broadband basic info/help site - www.robertos.me.uk
My domains,website and mail hosting - Tsohost. Internet connection - O2 Standard.
Standard User creative1
(newbie) Tue 15-Feb-11 16:20:42
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Re: Jump in HEC errors


[re: RobertoS] [link to this post]
 
I`m not either! I`m already seeing correctable errors...

RS Correctable Errors: 99 0
RS Uncorrectable Errors: 0 0

HEC Errors: 0 0

These usually lead to the other errors building. That`s for 17 minutes connection time.

I`ll just see how I go over night, and maybe phone my ISP if they begin to do the usual build up.

EDIT: they are now at 114!

Edited by creative1 (Tue 15-Feb-11 16:21:47)

Standard User RobertoS
(sensei) Tue 15-Feb-11 16:29:40
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Re: Jump in HEC errors


[re: creative1] [link to this post]
 
Well over 100,000 correctable errors a day is no big deal, so don't worry yet smile.

My broadband basic info/help site - www.robertos.me.uk
My domains,website and mail hosting - Tsohost. Internet connection - O2 Standard.
Standard User creative1
(newbie) Tue 15-Feb-11 16:34:05
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Re: Jump in HEC errors


[re: RobertoS] [link to this post]
 
Thanks for that! Made me feel a bit better about seeing them. Still no other errors showing, so as you say, fingers crossed..
Standard User creative1
(newbie) Tue 15-Feb-11 17:48:02
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Re: Jump in HEC errors


[re: creative1] [link to this post]
 
Now i`m cross with VM!

My HEC`s and RS errors started jumping up again, so I phoned support and got fobbed off. Then I phone to get my MAC code, as i`m not in contract, and got offered broadband for £4.95 per month, instead of the £14.99 i`m paying now.

That`s for the same deal I have, which is unlimited broadband, and phone (but not line rental). He told me to go and think about it, and who to ask for etc... when I phone back. If I do decide on it, I won`t be settling for anything other than what was offered!

The real problem is, that i`ve had this fault for so long, and VM don`t seem to want to help me with it. Most of their support staff are fine, but I don`t like the fact that it takes so long to get anything done, and the last one said to wait until it happens again and then phone back. Instead of doing the right thing, and sorting now!

I know if I go elsewhere my fault comes with me, but i`d be hopeful that someone else would help me fix it. There is an ISP willing to take on lines with a fault, but they cost more than most.

It would mean another 12 month contract also, and I don`t like being stuck with a company for so long.

What to do?
Standard User RobertoS
(sensei) Tue 15-Feb-11 17:54:40
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Re: Jump in HEC errors


[re: creative1] [link to this post]
 
There is an ISP willing to take on lines with a fault, but they cost more than most.

It would mean another 12 month contract also, and I don`t like being stuck with a company for so long.
I assume you mean AAISP?

As far as I know, apart from the resold Be LLU, and FTTC, they are monthly contract.

Peask time rates are horrendous, off-peak quite good, night period effectively unlimited.

My broadband basic info/help site - www.robertos.me.uk
My domains,website and mail hosting - Tsohost. Internet connection - O2 Standard.
Standard User creative1
(newbie) Tue 15-Feb-11 18:09:30
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Re: Jump in HEC errors


[re: RobertoS] [link to this post]
 
That`s the one!

Would it even be worth going with them to rid myself of this fault once and for all, or are they as bad as others when it comes to these things?

We do have FTTC around here, but my estimate is only 7.2 down and 1.1 up, which means BT won`t provide it at the minute. There is no LLU available here, so the best I can get right now is ADSL max.

Question about my noise margin; Is it normal for it to vary from around 13 during the day to around 7 at night (sometimes less)? I noticed mine does that before, and did mean to mention it earlier, but forgot with all the error chat.

I mentioned it to VM, but he didn`t seem bothered. As far as i`m aware that shouldn`t be happening?

It`s now:

SNR Margin (dB): 9.5 20.0
Standard User RobertoS
(sensei) Tue 15-Feb-11 18:21:47
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Re: Jump in HEC errors


[re: creative1] [link to this post]
 
A variation of that much in noise margin isn't normal, but looks to be fairly common.

If you remember, the default sync-time setting on BT Wholesale is 6dB, but on unstable lines (ie more than 6dB variation) it can get hiked to 9, 12 or even 15dB.

That has two simultaneous effects. First it obviously allows more variation, second it lowers the connection speed so fewer errors occur.

As long as you don't lose connection, the variation of the noise margin doesn't really matter in itself. However it is an indicator of possible noise problems.

Have you done the usual such as disconnecting ring wires, making sure everything is filtered and no filters have failed, and so on?

So far as I know, AAISP live up to their claims. If you hunt around their website they show samples of their diagnostics, some of which they run all the time on every customer's line anyway - a bit like the tbb BQM.

You could ask in the AAISP forum? Or give them a ring tomorrow?

My broadband basic info/help site - www.robertos.me.uk
My domains,website and mail hosting - Tsohost. Internet connection - O2 Standard.
Standard User creative1
(newbie) Tue 15-Feb-11 18:59:12
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Re: Jump in HEC errors


[re: RobertoS] [link to this post]
 
Thankyou.

It doesn`t seem to be a case of losing the connection due to noise on the line, but due to the error build up.

I`m wondering if I should take VM up on the good offer, and put up with things as they are for now? As you can see my sync isn`t bad at all, and to be honest the worst IP profile i`ve seen is 3000 due to disconnects. I do see speeds that aren`t great at all, even during the day, but they are not there all the time.

I did at one stage, go through a period of several daily disconnects, and that puts me off doing the above a little. Although as said, my IP profile didn`t suffer much considering.

I changed to another (just out of the wrapper) filter this afternoon before starting my connection again (I got two with my new modem/router). I only have one phone line into the house, so don`t need anymore than the one filter. I`ll have to check out the ringwire tomorrow, but i`m pretty sure that isn`t connected, but may be wrong.

Would a BT iplate help at all? Even though I don`t use extensions?
Standard User RobertoS
(sensei) Tue 15-Feb-11 19:02:34
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Re: Jump in HEC errors


[re: creative1] [link to this post]
 
The iPlate just filters the ring wire. Easier and cheaper just to gently disconnect it if present.

While you have the master open, just not down what colour wires are connected to which terminals.

In fact - before you bother disconnecting anything, just open the master and plug your filter into the Test Socket on the wall at the back. See how things go from there.

My broadband basic info/help site - www.robertos.me.uk
My domains,website and mail hosting - Tsohost. Internet connection - O2 Standard.
Standard User creative1
(newbie) Tue 15-Feb-11 19:05:50
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Re: Jump in HEC errors


[re: RobertoS] [link to this post]
 
It`s already in the test socket, but there are no visable wires at all. They are tucked up out of site, as the engineer who tested my broadband connection a while ago had to take another part off to get to them.

Hope you know what I mean?

Edited by creative1 (Tue 15-Feb-11 19:06:28)

Standard User RobertoS
(sensei) Tue 15-Feb-11 19:10:06
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Re: Jump in HEC errors


[re: creative1] [link to this post]
 
Ummmm.

Although you shouldn't remove the cover over the incoming cable connection, I would be tempted to make sure no wires are tucked in there in such a way that they could make an electrical contact!

Even fish the loose ones out to make sure.

My broadband basic info/help site - www.robertos.me.uk
My domains,website and mail hosting - Tsohost. Internet connection - O2 Standard.
Standard User creative1
(newbie) Tue 15-Feb-11 19:17:13
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Re: Jump in HEC errors


[re: RobertoS] [link to this post]
 
You could very well be right!

I`ve just been looking at images for the test socket, and you can see where the wiring is going to from them, and I can`t with mine. Some seem to have wiring on the faceplate, but I don`t with mine, it just slots into the test socket.
Standard User RobertoS
(sensei) Tue 15-Feb-11 19:24:09
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Re: Jump in HEC errors


[re: creative1] [link to this post]
 
As long as there are no wired extensions in the house, you would not expect any connections to the faceplate terminals.

Equally, if there are extensions present, even if you don't use them, then they should be wired to the faceplate not to the back.

What I'm thinking of is just unused wires making an electrical contact when they shouldn't.

My broadband basic info/help site - www.robertos.me.uk
My domains,website and mail hosting - Tsohost. Internet connection - O2 Standard.
Standard User creative1
(newbie) Tue 15-Feb-11 19:30:38
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Re: Jump in HEC errors


[re: RobertoS] [link to this post]
 
I`ll get a good look tomorrow when i`ll have a chance of holding my sync, rather than upset things again tonight.

Hopefully there is something simple going on with it, and I can get it fixed. Not too fused on doing it though, as I don`t like the thought of doing anything wrong.
Standard User RobertoS
(sensei) Tue 15-Feb-11 19:44:11
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Re: Jump in HEC errors


[re: creative1] [link to this post]
 
Just be careful, but there isn't anything delicate behind there to break.

As you say, best done in daylight, as easier to see what you are doing never mind the better stability.

My broadband basic info/help site - www.robertos.me.uk
My domains,website and mail hosting - Tsohost. Internet connection - O2 Standard.
Standard User creative1
(newbie) Wed 16-Feb-11 10:50:07
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Re: Jump in HEC errors


[re: RobertoS] [link to this post]
 
Ok,, so I had a little look, and there were two wires behind there that were disconnected. One was white with a bit of orange on the end, and I can`t remember the other now. The two wires with blue were connected up.

I didn`t take it right off, as the screws seemed to go on for ever, so just had a look with it loosened off.

I wasn`t really sure what to look for problem wise, but as a non-expert, it all looked fine to me.

Had a listen with just the phone again, and it all sounds clear, so can`t be a voice problem. Unless of course, it`s even more intermittent than before.

I ended up just putting the faceplate back on this time round, and here are my stats with it:


Downstream Upstream
Rate (Kbps): 6496 kbps 448 kbps

SNR Margin (dB): 13.5 20.0
Attenuation (dB): 44.5 23.0
Output Power (dBm): 20.0 12.5

Super Frames: 1439 1439
RS Correctable Errors: 0 0
RS Uncorrectable Errors: 0 0

HEC Errors: 0 0
Total Cells: 202 88
Data Cells: 202 88
Bit Errors: 0 0

Doesn`t appear to be a difference with or without that on, so I think it`s safe to assume that is fine. I plan on removing it again later, but trying not to have to re-sync too often here. Maybe do it after 1pm, and then i`m all set if I need to phone VM about this again.
Standard User creative1
(newbie) Sat 19-Feb-11 22:46:07
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Re: Jump in HEC errors


[re: creative1] [link to this post]
 
Bit of an update as it may be useful for someone else.

After checking the wires, and having tightened the screws, i`d noticed my errors were creeping up more often (even the upstream started seeing a lot more than usual). So today, I just loosened the screws very slightly, and with 10 hours connection my stats are:

Mode: G.DMT
Type: ANNEX_A
Status: Showtime

Downstream Upstream
Rate (Kbps): 6464 kbps 448 kbps

SNR Margin (dB): 7.5 20.0
Attenuation (dB): 45.0 23.0
Output Power (dBm): 20.0 12.0

Super Frames: 2038456 2038456
RS Correctable Errors: 61409 0
RS Uncorrectable Errors: 7 0

HEC Errors: 28 0
Total Cells: 7896921 1700597
Data Cells: 22380429 1700597
Bit Errors: 0 0

These are now a lot less than before! Although, it may just be a case of having a good 10 hours, but fingers crossed.
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