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Anonymous
(Unregistered)Mon 28-Feb-11 16:14:00
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The best that I can get?


[link to this post]
 
I'm a registered user (smurf46) but not currently on a PC with my login. I'm trying to work out whether it's worth trying to do anything about my ADSL service or even possibly going for a fibre upgrade. PC ethernet-connected to main socket with i-plate (but no difference if connected behind faceplate and ring wire disconnected) and domestic phone wiring was replaced by BT in 2001.

My theory is that my link through the street underground cable may have been damaged during someone else's repair, as on a couple of occasions since Xmas I have continual loss of connection for several hours the following day after steady rain, though BT quiet line test has no noise. ISP Orange; speeds have declined over last 2 years from 5.5Meg>4 Meg>2Meg, which I believe is their "fixed" profiles on their "old" up to 8 Meg service (as I refuse to upgrade whilst speeds are so poor). Their speed estimate is 2Meg, although they say 4Meg for their 20Meg service!). No fibre yet, but the wholesale checker says ADSL. 3.5-5.5Meg, and fibre due in summer of 25 Meg. Currently I refuse to believe it, but is it possible with these line stats? I'm particularly interested in hearing what any of the smaller providers who also do fibre have to say. (Are the errors the best indicator of a problem: trouble is that Livebox only records on connection so this level is probably after less than 5 days - this level of upload errors are a recent feature). Speed is stable throughout the day/night but at sub-2Meg (1.4-1.9) is OK for browsing but not much else. I've usually had multiple billions of errors on the download but only several thousand on the upload and a stable connection for more than a month at a time with speeds of up to 4 (down)/0.6 (upload) Meg for a year until last autumn. It's Orange so I need to tell them what to do, but don't want an avoidable BT bill, and I have suggested a reversion to ADSL2/1 but no they say, their standard (whoosh?) line test is OK!

A particular question is whether a BT engineer in a fibre set up would detect and arrange a line repair if required? I'm also in Essex, and I understand from a BT operative several years ago during a line problem that the estate underground lines installed in the old eastern region in the 60s/70s are known to be decrepid; to those that might know am I therefore wasting my time even thinking about these things?

INVENTEL version : v5.10.7-uk (Livebox)
ADSL_TYPE=Fast ADSL_MODE=ADSL2+ ADSL_NOISE_MARGIN=10.3 ADSL_ATTENUATION=50.0 ADSL_ATTAINABLE=3294 ADSL_DOWNSTREAM=2268 ADSL_UPSTREAM=285 ADSL_NOISE_MARGIN_UP=7.2 ADSL_ATTENUATION_UP=29.6 ADSL_ATTAINABLE_UP=344 ADSL_RSCORR=2535 ADSL_RSUNCORR=0 ADSL_RSCORR_UP=17172645 ADSL_RSUNCORR_UP=0.
Exchange EABOR: O2 thought I couldn't do any better.
Standard User b4dger
(knowledge is power) Mon 28-Feb-11 16:31:17
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Re: The best that I can get?


[re: Anonymous] [link to this post]
 
A bit of a confusing question...

My attenuation is the same as yours (50/51db down) and I connect around 56xx.
It looks as if your Target SNR is either 9 or 12db which is reducing your sync.

Obviously if your can get FTTC then your connection should improve massively depending on how far away your BT cabinet is, you will be moving off from using a mile or two of copper cable which can only be a good thing smile

Standard User smurf46
(learned) Mon 28-Feb-11 16:47:11
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Re: The best that I can get?


[re: b4dger] [link to this post]
 
Anonymous OP here. Sorry about confusing questions. Interesting thing is that SNR has remained at 10 throughout, whilst speeds have declined from 5.5Meg to 2 Meg.


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Administrator MrSaffron
(staff) Mon 28-Feb-11 16:51:22
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Re: The best that I can get?


[re: smurf46] [link to this post]
 
Probably was an IPStream at 5.5Meg, then Orange LLU arrived in 2008 at the exchange and they have dropped you onto slower and slower profiles

You might get your speeds back by just changing to any ISP that is NOT Orange, even one that uses BT Wholesale products.

Andrew Ferguson, andrew@thinkbroadband.com
www.thinkbroadband.com - formerly known as ADSLguide.org.uk
The author of the above post is a thinkbroadband staff member. It may not constitute an official statement on behalf of thinkbroadband.
Standard User smurf46
(learned) Mon 28-Feb-11 17:22:10
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Re: The best that I can get?


[re: MrSaffron] [link to this post]
 
Thanks I think you're right about the forced slower profiles: though the 5.5Meg speed was over a 6 month period in 2009, nine months after Orange LLU'd the exchange. I was told the engineer couldn't restore the connection without a forced reduction in speed, but I thought when it happened for a second time it begs the question "why?". Are you suggesting it's an Orange dodgy DSLAM - in which case I could wait and presumably it should get sorted when they move their customers over to the BT wholesale 21CN network. (Orange claim to have both done a lift and shift and to have "rebuilt" the connection on separate occasions).

Edited by smurf46 (Mon 28-Feb-11 17:29:08)

Administrator MrSaffron
(staff) Mon 28-Feb-11 17:46:01
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Re: The best that I can get?


[re: smurf46] [link to this post]
 
Could be there is an underlying issue with the phone line and it can only provide stable broadband at the speeds you are getting, but without a change of ISP to one who can answer questions about what DLM system they are using you are simply guessing.

The orange use of 21CN was known of some months ago, and no massive sign of it happening in large numbers yet. Whether it will be better depends on how much capacity Orange order, the old Orange access via BT Wholesale was never very good - BT Wholesale generally are not cheap if quality is needed.

Andrew Ferguson, andrew@thinkbroadband.com
www.thinkbroadband.com - formerly known as ADSLguide.org.uk
The author of the above post is a thinkbroadband staff member. It may not constitute an official statement on behalf of thinkbroadband.
Standard User iwish
(committed) Tue 01-Mar-11 01:05:35
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Re: The best that I can get?


[re: MrSaffron] [link to this post]
 
You should be getting the same as what i get

SNR (dB): 6.1 11.1
Attn(dB): 51.5 31.5
Pwr(dBm): 0.0 12.9
Max(Kbps): 6384 756
Rate (Kbps): 5763 675
Standard User XRaySpeX
(knowledge is power) Tue 01-Mar-11 14:08:13
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Re: The best that I can get?


[re: smurf46] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by smurf46:
Interesting thing is that SNR (you mean NM) has remained at 10 throughout, whilst speeds have declined from 5.5Meg to 2 Meg.
Orange's default NM on LLU seems to be 10 dB for stability; I'm running with it untweaked. It probably shaves about 1 Meg off your speed.

1999: Freeserve 48K Dial-Up => 2005: Wanadoo 1 Meg BB => 2007: Orange 2 Meg BB => 2008: Orange 8 Meg LLU BB => 2010: Orange 16 Meg LLU BB
Standard User smurf46
(learned) Wed 02-Mar-11 10:57:54
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Re: The best that I can get?


[re: MrSaffron] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by MrSaffron:
You might get your speeds back by just changing to any ISP that is NOT Orange, .


With respect, I think that comes from the "pigs might fly" school of thought! I know you think I'm guessing, but it's a simple process of logical thought: the exchange is modern and has good backhaul, and the local wiring in my dwelling has been replaced, but the bit in the middle (local loop) is underground with repair joints at every other house on the estate back at 1km to the cab. Any DLM whether automatic or manual is only going to respond to a problem elsewhere, it's not random.

So it's a wait until the voice phone fails (which from past experience could be a decade or more), as that's Openreach's only legal obligation . I wondered if they might be incentivised to do something in the context of a fibre installation, but the deafening silence in response to that question indicates eloquently, that the answer is "no, of course not"! BT the master in the 1950s time warp of UK infrastructure, and everyone else including the government and so-called regulator (the beggars) can't be choosers.

Just to confirm my prejudices, I've discovered the Visualware tester, which appears to give access to the metrics behind the speedtest, and suffice it that apart from being consistent with TBB auto and other tests and what other posters say about the capacity of my connection, its CoS (consistency of service?) summary comes out at 6% for ADSL (compared to 93% for a fixed wireless alternative I have, even at 5 miles from the transmitter), and the graphing of the results is about as erratic as I can imagine, with a much more block-like graph for the fixed wireless, and TCP delays of 400-800ms for ADSL and 40-100 for fixed wireless. (It suggests the wireless download runs at 12+/12.8 available bandwidth/40 route capacity, and the comparable figures for ADSL 1.1/6.8/24).

So to conclude the thread by answering my own question, I can (and probably should) abandon the phone line and certainly not bet the farm on any improvement!
Standard User E7er
(knowledge is power) Wed 02-Mar-11 19:08:31
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Re: The best that I can get?


[re: smurf46] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by smurf46:
With respect, I think that comes from the "pigs might fly" school of thought! I know you think I'm guessing, but it's a simple process of logical thought: the exchange is modern and has good backhaul, and the local wiring in my dwelling has been replaced, but the bit in the middle (local loop) is underground with repair joints at every other house on the estate back at 1km to the cab. Any DLM whether automatic or manual is only going to respond to a problem elsewhere, it's not random.

So to conclude the thread by answering my own question, I can (and probably should) abandon the phone line and certainly not bet the farm on any improvement!
Hi smurf46, with your router stats as below you should have it set for Interleaved not Fast for a stable connection, you must have a long line back to the exchange.

Protocol: G.DMT2+ Annex A
Downstream Rate: 2268 kbps
Upstream Rate: 285 kbps
Channel: Fast
Current Noise Margin: 10.3 dB (Downstream), 7.2 dB (Upstream)
Current Attenuation: 50.9 dB (Downstream), 29.6 dB (Upstream)

On Orange LLU 20 Meg I use the BT Business Hub 2Wire 2700HGV wireless router, it gives me the fastest speeds and it is the best router for a long line, you get one on eBay.

http://shop.ebay.co.uk/i.html?_nkw=BT+2+Wire+2700HGV...

Orange (SMPF) LLU 20 Meg. Sync 11864 Kbps Downstream, 1157 Kbps Upstream.
3Com 3CRWDR101A-75 ADSL2/2+ wireless router
Netgear DGN1000 ADSL2+ wireless N 150 Router supplied by Orange
BT Business Hub 2Wire 2700HGV v2 ADSL2+ Dual SSID wireless Router
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