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Anonymous
(Unregistered)Mon 28-Feb-11 16:14:00
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The best that I can get?


[link to this post]
 
I'm a registered user (smurf46) but not currently on a PC with my login. I'm trying to work out whether it's worth trying to do anything about my ADSL service or even possibly going for a fibre upgrade. PC ethernet-connected to main socket with i-plate (but no difference if connected behind faceplate and ring wire disconnected) and domestic phone wiring was replaced by BT in 2001.

My theory is that my link through the street underground cable may have been damaged during someone else's repair, as on a couple of occasions since Xmas I have continual loss of connection for several hours the following day after steady rain, though BT quiet line test has no noise. ISP Orange; speeds have declined over last 2 years from 5.5Meg>4 Meg>2Meg, which I believe is their "fixed" profiles on their "old" up to 8 Meg service (as I refuse to upgrade whilst speeds are so poor). Their speed estimate is 2Meg, although they say 4Meg for their 20Meg service!). No fibre yet, but the wholesale checker says ADSL. 3.5-5.5Meg, and fibre due in summer of 25 Meg. Currently I refuse to believe it, but is it possible with these line stats? I'm particularly interested in hearing what any of the smaller providers who also do fibre have to say. (Are the errors the best indicator of a problem: trouble is that Livebox only records on connection so this level is probably after less than 5 days - this level of upload errors are a recent feature). Speed is stable throughout the day/night but at sub-2Meg (1.4-1.9) is OK for browsing but not much else. I've usually had multiple billions of errors on the download but only several thousand on the upload and a stable connection for more than a month at a time with speeds of up to 4 (down)/0.6 (upload) Meg for a year until last autumn. It's Orange so I need to tell them what to do, but don't want an avoidable BT bill, and I have suggested a reversion to ADSL2/1 but no they say, their standard (whoosh?) line test is OK!

A particular question is whether a BT engineer in a fibre set up would detect and arrange a line repair if required? I'm also in Essex, and I understand from a BT operative several years ago during a line problem that the estate underground lines installed in the old eastern region in the 60s/70s are known to be decrepid; to those that might know am I therefore wasting my time even thinking about these things?

INVENTEL version : v5.10.7-uk (Livebox)
ADSL_TYPE=Fast ADSL_MODE=ADSL2+ ADSL_NOISE_MARGIN=10.3 ADSL_ATTENUATION=50.0 ADSL_ATTAINABLE=3294 ADSL_DOWNSTREAM=2268 ADSL_UPSTREAM=285 ADSL_NOISE_MARGIN_UP=7.2 ADSL_ATTENUATION_UP=29.6 ADSL_ATTAINABLE_UP=344 ADSL_RSCORR=2535 ADSL_RSUNCORR=0 ADSL_RSCORR_UP=17172645 ADSL_RSUNCORR_UP=0.
Exchange EABOR: O2 thought I couldn't do any better.
Standard User b4dger
(knowledge is power) Mon 28-Feb-11 16:31:17
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Re: The best that I can get?


[re: Anonymous] [link to this post]
 
A bit of a confusing question...

My attenuation is the same as yours (50/51db down) and I connect around 56xx.
It looks as if your Target SNR is either 9 or 12db which is reducing your sync.

Obviously if your can get FTTC then your connection should improve massively depending on how far away your BT cabinet is, you will be moving off from using a mile or two of copper cable which can only be a good thing smile

Standard User smurf46
(learned) Mon 28-Feb-11 16:47:11
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Re: The best that I can get?


[re: b4dger] [link to this post]
 
Anonymous OP here. Sorry about confusing questions. Interesting thing is that SNR has remained at 10 throughout, whilst speeds have declined from 5.5Meg to 2 Meg.


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Administrator MrSaffron
(staff) Mon 28-Feb-11 16:51:22
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Re: The best that I can get?


[re: smurf46] [link to this post]
 
Probably was an IPStream at 5.5Meg, then Orange LLU arrived in 2008 at the exchange and they have dropped you onto slower and slower profiles

You might get your speeds back by just changing to any ISP that is NOT Orange, even one that uses BT Wholesale products.

Andrew Ferguson, andrew@thinkbroadband.com
www.thinkbroadband.com - formerly known as ADSLguide.org.uk
The author of the above post is a thinkbroadband staff member. It may not constitute an official statement on behalf of thinkbroadband.
Standard User smurf46
(learned) Mon 28-Feb-11 17:22:10
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Re: The best that I can get?


[re: MrSaffron] [link to this post]
 
Thanks I think you're right about the forced slower profiles: though the 5.5Meg speed was over a 6 month period in 2009, nine months after Orange LLU'd the exchange. I was told the engineer couldn't restore the connection without a forced reduction in speed, but I thought when it happened for a second time it begs the question "why?". Are you suggesting it's an Orange dodgy DSLAM - in which case I could wait and presumably it should get sorted when they move their customers over to the BT wholesale 21CN network. (Orange claim to have both done a lift and shift and to have "rebuilt" the connection on separate occasions).

Edited by smurf46 (Mon 28-Feb-11 17:29:08)

Administrator MrSaffron
(staff) Mon 28-Feb-11 17:46:01
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Re: The best that I can get?


[re: smurf46] [link to this post]
 
Could be there is an underlying issue with the phone line and it can only provide stable broadband at the speeds you are getting, but without a change of ISP to one who can answer questions about what DLM system they are using you are simply guessing.

The orange use of 21CN was known of some months ago, and no massive sign of it happening in large numbers yet. Whether it will be better depends on how much capacity Orange order, the old Orange access via BT Wholesale was never very good - BT Wholesale generally are not cheap if quality is needed.

Andrew Ferguson, andrew@thinkbroadband.com
www.thinkbroadband.com - formerly known as ADSLguide.org.uk
The author of the above post is a thinkbroadband staff member. It may not constitute an official statement on behalf of thinkbroadband.
Standard User iwish
(committed) Tue 01-Mar-11 01:05:35
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Re: The best that I can get?


[re: MrSaffron] [link to this post]
 
You should be getting the same as what i get

SNR (dB): 6.1 11.1
Attn(dB): 51.5 31.5
Pwr(dBm): 0.0 12.9
Max(Kbps): 6384 756
Rate (Kbps): 5763 675
Standard User XRaySpeX
(knowledge is power) Tue 01-Mar-11 14:08:13
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Re: The best that I can get?


[re: smurf46] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by smurf46:
Interesting thing is that SNR (you mean NM) has remained at 10 throughout, whilst speeds have declined from 5.5Meg to 2 Meg.
Orange's default NM on LLU seems to be 10 dB for stability; I'm running with it untweaked. It probably shaves about 1 Meg off your speed.

1999: Freeserve 48K Dial-Up => 2005: Wanadoo 1 Meg BB => 2007: Orange 2 Meg BB => 2008: Orange 8 Meg LLU BB => 2010: Orange 16 Meg LLU BB
Standard User smurf46
(learned) Wed 02-Mar-11 10:57:54
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Re: The best that I can get?


[re: MrSaffron] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by MrSaffron:
You might get your speeds back by just changing to any ISP that is NOT Orange, .


With respect, I think that comes from the "pigs might fly" school of thought! I know you think I'm guessing, but it's a simple process of logical thought: the exchange is modern and has good backhaul, and the local wiring in my dwelling has been replaced, but the bit in the middle (local loop) is underground with repair joints at every other house on the estate back at 1km to the cab. Any DLM whether automatic or manual is only going to respond to a problem elsewhere, it's not random.

So it's a wait until the voice phone fails (which from past experience could be a decade or more), as that's Openreach's only legal obligation . I wondered if they might be incentivised to do something in the context of a fibre installation, but the deafening silence in response to that question indicates eloquently, that the answer is "no, of course not"! BT the master in the 1950s time warp of UK infrastructure, and everyone else including the government and so-called regulator (the beggars) can't be choosers.

Just to confirm my prejudices, I've discovered the Visualware tester, which appears to give access to the metrics behind the speedtest, and suffice it that apart from being consistent with TBB auto and other tests and what other posters say about the capacity of my connection, its CoS (consistency of service?) summary comes out at 6% for ADSL (compared to 93% for a fixed wireless alternative I have, even at 5 miles from the transmitter), and the graphing of the results is about as erratic as I can imagine, with a much more block-like graph for the fixed wireless, and TCP delays of 400-800ms for ADSL and 40-100 for fixed wireless. (It suggests the wireless download runs at 12+/12.8 available bandwidth/40 route capacity, and the comparable figures for ADSL 1.1/6.8/24).

So to conclude the thread by answering my own question, I can (and probably should) abandon the phone line and certainly not bet the farm on any improvement!
Standard User E7er
(knowledge is power) Wed 02-Mar-11 19:08:31
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Re: The best that I can get?


[re: smurf46] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by smurf46:
With respect, I think that comes from the "pigs might fly" school of thought! I know you think I'm guessing, but it's a simple process of logical thought: the exchange is modern and has good backhaul, and the local wiring in my dwelling has been replaced, but the bit in the middle (local loop) is underground with repair joints at every other house on the estate back at 1km to the cab. Any DLM whether automatic or manual is only going to respond to a problem elsewhere, it's not random.

So to conclude the thread by answering my own question, I can (and probably should) abandon the phone line and certainly not bet the farm on any improvement!
Hi smurf46, with your router stats as below you should have it set for Interleaved not Fast for a stable connection, you must have a long line back to the exchange.

Protocol: G.DMT2+ Annex A
Downstream Rate: 2268 kbps
Upstream Rate: 285 kbps
Channel: Fast
Current Noise Margin: 10.3 dB (Downstream), 7.2 dB (Upstream)
Current Attenuation: 50.9 dB (Downstream), 29.6 dB (Upstream)

On Orange LLU 20 Meg I use the BT Business Hub 2Wire 2700HGV wireless router, it gives me the fastest speeds and it is the best router for a long line, you get one on eBay.

http://shop.ebay.co.uk/i.html?_nkw=BT+2+Wire+2700HGV...

Orange (SMPF) LLU 20 Meg. Sync 11864 Kbps Downstream, 1157 Kbps Upstream.
3Com 3CRWDR101A-75 ADSL2/2+ wireless router
Netgear DGN1000 ADSL2+ wireless N 150 Router supplied by Orange
BT Business Hub 2Wire 2700HGV v2 ADSL2+ Dual SSID wireless Router
Standard User smurf46
(learned) Tue 22-Mar-11 23:40:05
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Re: The best that I can get?


[re: E7er] [link to this post]
 
Thanks for these thoughts E7er. I've decided after some thought to give the BT hub a try. I'm 3.5km (by road) from the exchange which is riight for the attenuation.

I'm on the "old" Orange up to 8Meg LLU, and I think from experience (and what I've read on the OrangeProblems forum) that Orange have fixed profiles (sync speeds) of [7xxx], 5500, 4092 and 2268 for those customers (who are not on their automated DLM unlike customers on the newer and more expensive up to 20Meg services), which reflects the decline in my speeds. (I cannot achieve the highest attainable speed due to distance from the exchange, which is also why up to 20Meg services are a waste of time and money for me).

The Livebox (supplied by Orange) currently shows an improved attainable sync speed of 3502 (formerly 42XX), so I'm hopng that if the alternative router can achieve a higher attainable sync speed of over 4 Meg then I can recover to the higher profile. Orange will not change me from Fastpath to interleaved, and although the highest attainable & actual sync was achieved on ADSL2 rather than 2+, I was told an Orange contracted engineer changed settings on the DSLAM to keep me on a fixed ADSL2+ Fastpath at a maximum sync rate of 4092Mbps, when he could not achieve a faster stable rate after the initial fault. (Subsequently when a PPP server fault recurred Orange "rebuilt" the connection followed by an initial reduction to 2268 maximum sync but then recovered over 2 weeks or so to its previous 4092).

The practical significance for me is that the 2268 MSR gives an actual throughput speed of between 1.4-1.9Mbps (pitiful towards the lower end) download and 0.25Mbps upload whilst the 4092 MSR gave an actual throughput of between 3.4-3.9 download 0.6 upload which was much more useful. I don't by the way have any disconnection problem, the Livebox has always resynched with the PPP server weekly, but stays connected to the exchange.

Am I right in reading that I should only need to disable the automatic checking for a BT login, and enter my Orange authentication details to get the BT Business Hub to work on the Orange LLU connection?

Edited by smurf46 (Wed 23-Mar-11 00:10:47)

Standard User XRaySpeX
(knowledge is power) Wed 23-Mar-11 02:32:55
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Re: The best that I can get?


[re: smurf46] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by smurf46:
I'm on the "old" Orange up to 8Meg LLU, and I think from experience (and what I've read on the OrangeProblems forum) that Orange have fixed profiles (sync speeds) of [7xxx], 5500, 4092 and 2268 for those customers (who are not on their automated DLM unlike customers on the newer and more expensive up to 20Meg services)
I don't believe this! Orange's "old" 8 Meg LLU is now just Orange's "new" 20 Meg LLU capped to 8 Meg by increasing the NM to damp the speed. I know; I was on it up to last year and Sync'ed at 8061 Kbps constantly for 2 years. Never found such a statement on OrangeProblems either!

You should be able to put your Orange authentication details and other settings in any generic router.

1999: Freeserve 48K Dial-Up => 2005: Wanadoo 1 Meg BB => 2007: Orange 2 Meg BB => 2008: Orange 8 Meg LLU BB => 2010: Orange 16 Meg LLU BB
Standard User smurf46
(learned) Wed 23-Mar-11 07:58:54
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Re: The best that I can get?


[re: XRaySpeX] [link to this post]
 
I thought you were right too, but my NM is normally the standard Orange 10, and has been as low as 8 or as high as 14, but it doesn't alter the 2268 sync rate however it varies (and similarly didn't before when I was on either the 4092 or 5500 sync rates) . The only explanation I can offer is that Orange didn't follow a consistent approach amongst different exchanges, perhaps another reason for the high costs why the contract was moved over to BT. (I doubt it's a Livebox fault since identical results were achieved with a substitute old BT Voyager modem). Or if it is their DLM, it gets stuck . . . every time, just on my line?

Perhaps interestingly their website still shows a 2Mbps speed for my connection (as it did when I had the 4Mbps sync!) and a 3Mbps estimate (used to be 4 before the website was reconfigured this morning) for the up to 20Mbps service, may be the latter reflecting the BT line profiling on IPStream/21CN which Orange appear to be using for "new" connections?

The Orange marketing logo (which they are so keen on) should perhaps be "Everything Everywhere: anything is possible with Orange" then they've covered it all.
Standard User E7er
(knowledge is power) Wed 23-Mar-11 08:30:11
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Re: The best that I can get?


[re: smurf46] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by smurf46:
Thanks for these thoughts E7er. I've decided after some thought to give the BT hub a try. I'm 3.5km (by road) from the exchange which is riight for the attenuation.

Am I right in reading that I should only need to disable the automatic checking for a BT login, and enter my Orange authentication details to get the BT Business Hub to work on the Orange LLU connection?
Hi smurf46, the BT 2700HGV a great router, will connect with any ISP using ADSL2/2+ broadband connection.

Orange settings for any ADSL2+ router all you need is…

ATM Circuit Identifier: VPI:0 / VCI:38
ATM Encapsulation: VC-Mux
Connection Type: PPPoA
Username:
Password:
MTU 1492
-------------

BT2700HGV router configuration Hack http://forums.thinkbroadband.com/dslrouter/t/3964549...

When you configure the router, do not bother with the CD and do not use their silly numbers from the base of the router and for wireless security use your custom encryption key with WPA-PSK.

The wireless SSID (network name) can be whatever you wish I sometimes use Mickey Mouse.

Use Wireless Mode: 802.11g.

Check (Save) to save the settings.

Useful hidden page for Management and Diagnostic Console.
http://192.168.1.254/mdc

Orange (SMPF) LLU 20 Meg. Sync 11864 Kbps Downstream, 1157 Kbps Upstream.
3Com 3CRWDR101A-75 ADSL2/2+ wireless router
Netgear DGN1000 ADSL2+ wireless N 150 Router supplied by Orange
BT Business Hub 2Wire 2700HGV v2 ADSL2+ Dual SSID wireless Router
Standard User warweezil
(fountain of knowledge) Wed 23-Mar-11 10:20:27
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Re: The best that I can get?


[re: E7er] [link to this post]
 
All I do with the ones I have (at least the ones that still run BT 6.1.x.x firmware) is go to the (hidden) page below and enter my ISP log in details and presto. I should mention that sometimes the router is connected and running before the "internet light" turns green, so keep that in mind.

192.168.1.254/xslt?PAGE=HURL13

Note that if you have changed the IP range from the default then this link needs to reflect that change. That is enough to connect. I never yet had to enter codes and stuff to get connected.

I have 20 2700s that are running either BT firmware and Qwest firmware that I am rolling out to all the locations where I support friends or family. I have a non standard IP range specced for my network but the one above is for the default BT IP range.

There is firmware that you can update to from the 6.1 BT crippleware if you are feeling brave, but that would depend on your requirements

The site linked to elsewhere is a useful resource that still gets updated from time to time I would recommend you bookmark it for future reference
http://bt2700hgv.tripod.com/ir1002700HGV.htm

Any ISP that thinks that selling my click traffic is acceptable is MisinPHORMed
Market 1 (IPSC) - a BT group investment NOT Spot
Standard User XRaySpeX
(knowledge is power) Wed 23-Mar-11 12:23:34
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Re: The best that I can get?


[re: smurf46] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by smurf46:
my NM is normally the standard Orange 10, and has been as low as 8 or as high as 14
That's because the 10 is set by Orange's DLM when you connect and then varies up & down as line noise changes over time (it is a margin after all). As long as this noise variation is not enough to cause a discon, your Sync will remain what it was upon connection.

1999: Freeserve 48K Dial-Up => 2005: Wanadoo 1 Meg BB => 2007: Orange 2 Meg BB => 2008: Orange 8 Meg LLU BB => 2010: Orange 16 Meg LLU BB
Standard User smurf46
(learned) Sat 26-Mar-11 18:25:53
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Re: The best that I can get?


[re: E7er] [link to this post]
 
Well I've had an interesting afternoon setting up the BT hub on Orange LLU, and interestingly, its VOIP facility also seems to work with the Orange VOIP service, which makes it a good substitute for the Livebox. (I suppose we loose that VOIP service when Orange discontinue their LLU which would be disappointing as it's the reason I persevere with them!). At the moment wireless is a bit erratic, and the built in firewall is playing havoc with some programs.

No change in speeds yet, but of greater interest is the better stats available from the router, which do show the service as interleaved and the NM (down) as 17, which is more what I would expect from my knowledge of the decrepid state of the local infrastructure, compared to the Livebox readings. (Any change to the Orange Livebox stats always followed a disconnect/reconnect as the Livebox stats do not update save on a reconnect).
Standard User E7er
(knowledge is power) Sat 26-Mar-11 18:50:38
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Re: The best that I can get?


[re: smurf46] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by smurf46:
Well I've had an interesting afternoon setting up the BT hub on Orange LLU, and interestingly, its VOIP facility also seems to work with the Orange VOIP service, which makes it a good substitute for the Livebox. (I suppose we loose that VOIP service when Orange discontinue their LLU which would be disappointing as it's the reason I persevere with them!). At the moment wireless is a bit erratic, and the built in firewall is playing havoc with some programs.

No change in speeds yet, but of greater interest is the better stats available from the router, which do show the service as interleaved and the NM (down) as 17, which is more what I would expect from my knowledge of the decrepid state of the local infrastructure, compared to the Livebox readings. (Any change to the Orange Livebox stats always followed a disconnect/reconnect as the Livebox stats do not update save on a reconnect).
Hi smurf46, wow! That’s the first time I have heard anyone say they got the VOIP connection working with the BT Business Hub 2Wire 2700HGV router other than with BT. How do you get that service with Orange do you have to be registered with Orange for it and what phone do you use? I am very interested I want one. smile

Orange (SMPF) LLU 20 Meg. Sync 11864 Kbps Downstream, 1157 Kbps Upstream.
3Com 3CRWDR101A-75 ADSL2/2+ wireless router
Netgear DGN1000 ADSL2+ wireless N 150 Router supplied by Orange
BT Business Hub 2Wire 2700HGV v2 ADSL2+ Dual SSID wireless Router
Standard User smurf46
(learned) Sat 26-Mar-11 21:17:45
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Re: The best that I can get?


[re: E7er] [link to this post]
 
Sorry, I gather for Orange VOIP you have to had registered for the service on the "old" pre-October 2010 Home Ultra or (as in my case the even earlier) Home Max service - they've withdrawn it from new connections. Foolish me though, I think it just runs through the normal landline, not the Orange VOIP!!

Edited by smurf46 (Sat 26-Mar-11 21:25:57)

Standard User dodgy8
(newbie) Wed 30-Mar-11 23:05:37
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Re: The best that I can get?


[re: smurf46] [link to this post]
 
continual loss of connection for several hours the following day after steady rain, though BT quiet line test has no noise.

Have you tried a qlt when the connection is down?
Standard User smurf46
(learned) Sat 09-Apr-11 08:44:03
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Re: The best that I can get?


[re: E7er] [link to this post]
 
Perhaps not, to answer my original question. The Business Hub originally made no difference (apart from showing NM as up to 18) for the first three weeks.

But this morning (on PC being switched on for the first time in a week) stats show the following (a bit of a difference from the 2268/285 synch I've had for the last 2 years:
Protocol: G.DMT2 Annex A [so it's at last slipped down from ADSL2+)]
Downstream Rate: 5186 kbps
Upstream Rate: 875 kbps
Channel: Interleaved
Current Noise Margin: 10.9 dB (Downstream) 9.5 dB (Upstream)
Current Attenuation: 47.6 dB (Downstream) 29.5 dB (Upstream) [lower as expected for ADSL2}
Current Output Power: 19.4 dBm (Downstream) 12.5 dBm (Upstream)
DSLAM Vendor Information: Country: {0xB5} Vendor: {IFTN} Specific: {0xBE71}
...
Internet Connection Details
..
Internet Address: 2.25.17* {edit: having checked this shows up as Orange Home WBC not Orange LLU as previously, confirming my theory).

The DSLAM and internet address details look different from the traditional Orange, so is it a switchover to BT 21CN, though I've had no advisory e-mail from Orange. These speeds are as good as ever achieved (temporarily) on my line in last 4 years with Orange, so perhaps its not just the dry spring weather has at last got to the decrepid underground line!

Edited by smurf46 (Sat 09-Apr-11 10:47:22)

Standard User XRaySpeX
(knowledge is power) Sat 09-Apr-11 16:07:25
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Re: The best that I can get?


[re: smurf46] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by smurf46:
having checked this shows up as Orange Home WBC not Orange LLU as previously, confirming my theory
Where do you check this?

1999: Freeserve 48K Dial-Up => 2005: Wanadoo 1 Meg BB => 2007: Orange 2 Meg BB => 2008: Orange 8 Meg LLU BB => 2010: Orange 19 Meg Tweaked / 16 Meg Untweaked LLU BB
Standard User BatBoy
(legend) Sat 09-Apr-11 16:10:37
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Re: The best that I can get?


[re: XRaySpeX] [link to this post]
 
Ripe http://www.db.ripe.net/whois?searchtext=2.25.17.&sea...



______________________________________________________________________________attack_the_post_not_the_poster__________________
Standard User smurf46
(regular) Sat 09-Apr-11 17:57:41
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Re: The best that I can get?


[re: XRaySpeX] [link to this post]
 
Batboy's correct, though of course I didn't give out my full IP address in the post but it's the same result!
Standard User XRaySpeX
(knowledge is power) Sat 09-Apr-11 18:27:53
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Re: The best that I can get?


[re: smurf46] [link to this post]
 
Yes, thanks! I know all about Whois, but never realised that these descriptions included "LLU/WBC".

1999: Freeserve 48K Dial-Up => 2005: Wanadoo 1 Meg BB => 2007: Orange 2 Meg BB => 2008: Orange 8 Meg LLU BB => 2010: Orange 19 Meg Tweaked / 16 Meg Untweaked LLU BB
Standard User smurf46
(regular) Sat 09-Apr-11 19:03:08
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Re: The best that I can get?


[re: XRaySpeX] [link to this post]
 
Presumably the descriptions are used by Orange staff and might perhaps be the only way they can tell the difference?
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