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Standard User backtogeek
(newbie) Fri 01-Apr-11 22:48:49
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Orange Home Broadband... feel like I am being lied too


[link to this post]
 
Hi Folks,

Looking for a little advice.

I switched over from plusnet to orange because orange were the only provider on my exchange (NEAT) that said they had capacity on their LLU service and I got so sick of the IP Profile trampoline!

Apart from the nightmare actualy getting signed up and migrated and having no internet for 48 hours I am now pretty sure they have put me on a BT Wholesale product.

In my account setting it seems I am on an up to 8mbit service which was the first alarm bell.

The second alarm bell is that I can still use the BT speedtester site and I seem to have an IP profile of 1000 blush Syncing at around 2800

So I rang orange to challenge them on this (I was VERY clear I would only migrate if they put me on LLU) after getting very little sence out of the call center and being asked to factory reset my router ......WHAT? (I refused) I demanded to be put through to the cancelations dept.

They said that I have to wait 10 days for the training period before they could troubleshoot speed issues. I asked why I even had a BT ip profile and was told that I am deffinatley on the orange network (ovoiding saying LLU) but my speeds would be low for 10 days while I migrate to a WBC line.

Now this all seems to conflict and the call center guys while troubleshooting the original no connection for 48 hours asked me to enter the BT test user details in to the router which started my initial suspicion.

Is there anyway that I can verify without any doubt I am on oranges LLU service and not a BTW line and is it fair to have to wait a certain period to migrate on to LLU?

Perhaps I missed somthing but I remember a few years back being on sky LLU and the speed i synced at was the speed I got even during the training period, should this not be the same with Orange?

Any tips or advice welcome.

Thanks.
Standard User XRaySpeX
(knowledge is power) Fri 01-Apr-11 23:19:33
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Re: Orange Home Broadband... feel like I am being lied too


[re: backtogeek] [link to this post]
 
Post your router stats so we can confirm you are not on LLU (which the running of the BT speedtester confirms anyway).

As a consequence of Orange getting in bed with BT, it appears that, since about New Year, they put all new joiners on BT IPStream, with the intention of moving those capable of > 8 Meg to WBC "eventually" on 21CN exchanges.

You're not the 1st, see : http://forums.thinkbroadband.com/unhappiness/f/39826...

1999: Freeserve 48K Dial-Up => 2005: Wanadoo 1 Meg BB => 2007: Orange 2 Meg BB => 2008: Orange 8 Meg LLU BB => 2010: Orange 16 Meg LLU BB

Edited by XRaySpeX (Fri 01-Apr-11 23:20:52)

Standard User backtogeek
(newbie) Fri 01-Apr-11 23:38:43
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Re: Orange Home Broadband... feel like I am being lied too


[re: XRaySpeX] [link to this post]
 
Connection Speed 2627 kbps 736 kbps
Line Attenuation 64.0 db 33.0 db
Noise Margin 5.5 db 4.7 db

Reading that thread now.

Thanks for the reply


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Standard User XRaySpeX
(knowledge is power) Fri 01-Apr-11 23:55:09
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Re: Orange Home Broadband... feel like I am being lied too


[re: backtogeek] [link to this post]
 
From your Up Sync you are already on WBC (it would be 448 on IPStream).

However, at your 64 dB attn. it's never going to make any difference to you and you'll always be fastest on ADSL1. You're already getting as good as you're going to get for Down Sync.

Does your router status have anything on ADSL/Line Mode/Modulation?

1999: Freeserve 48K Dial-Up => 2005: Wanadoo 1 Meg BB => 2007: Orange 2 Meg BB => 2008: Orange 8 Meg LLU BB => 2010: Orange 16 Meg LLU BB
Standard User backtogeek
(newbie) Sat 02-Apr-11 00:04:40
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Re: Orange Home Broadband... feel like I am being lied too


[re: XRaySpeX] [link to this post]
 
Thanks XRaySpeX,

My attn when I was on plusnet (same router) was 59 dB which is odd I would not expect that to change but I guess it is what it is.

So am I right in thinking that what I sync at I should actualy get i.e. sync at 2600 I should get roughly 2.6 mbit download speed or will I be limited by an IP profile?

bt speed tester site:

Download speedachieved during the test was - 858 Kbps
For your connection, the acceptable range of speedsis 400-1000 Kbps.
Additional Information:
Your DSL Connection Rate :2624 Kbps(DOWN-STREAM), 736 Kbps(UP-STREAM)
IP Profile for your line is - 1000 Kbps
The throughput of Best Efforts (BE) classes achieved during the test is - 8.45:25.07:66.57 (SBE:NBE:PBE)
These figures represent the ratio while sententiously passing Sub BE, Normal BE and Priority BE marked traffic.

The results of this test will vary depending on the way your ISP has decided to use these traffic classes.

Perhaps I have somthing not quite right in my thinking but I had assumed with an LLU service I would get what I synced at, even during the training period?

Why do I have an IP profile am I not understanding the difference between WBC and LLU, is there a difference?

so confused.

Edited by backtogeek (Sat 02-Apr-11 00:05:49)

Standard User XRaySpeX
(knowledge is power) Sat 02-Apr-11 01:04:14
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Re: Orange Home Broadband... feel like I am being lied too


[re: backtogeek] [link to this post]
 
OK, a few points to cover!

Firstly, Flavours of ADSL (phone line) BB
  • LLU is where ISPs put their own kit in BT exchanges and it doesn't matter what kit BT has there. They usually use ADSL2+ mode which is capable of up to 24 Meg, but it is often better to downgrade to ADSL1 or ADSL2 on very long lines (like yours).
  • IP Stream is where ISPs use BT kit (initially) in BT exchanges. This always uses ADSL1 (ADSL Max) mode which is only capable of up to 8 Meg.
  • WBC is where ISPs use BT kit (initially) in BT 21CN exchanges. This usually uses ADSL2+ mode just like LLU.
Orange used to use either LLU or IPStream in exchanges where they had no presence; now they are supposed to moving over gradually to either IPStream in 20CN exchanges or WBC in 21CN ones. However, existing customers, like myself are still on LLU (for the time being) smile

With Plusnet you were probably on IPStream running ADSL1. It is quite usual for your attn. to increase (by about) 3 dB when you move to ADSL2+. That's why I asked you for your Line Mode status.

IP Profile

Both IPStream and WBC use BT's dreaded laggy IP Profile and the only way to see it is via the BT Speedtester. LLU doesn't and can't! smile. Unlike LLU, the IP Profile takes days to recover after it senses frequent disconnections. It is always less than the Sync and could be much less. It is supposed to account for all the overheads.

Your actual throughput will usually be about 83% of Sync on a good line with low contention, but will be limited by the IP Profile. So, you will only get good throughput when the IP Profile recovers towards the Sync.

You are not on LLU but on WBC.

1999: Freeserve 48K Dial-Up => 2005: Wanadoo 1 Meg BB => 2007: Orange 2 Meg BB => 2008: Orange 8 Meg LLU BB => 2010: Orange 16 Meg LLU BB
Standard User backtogeek
(newbie) Sat 02-Apr-11 09:04:00
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Re: Orange Home Broadband... feel like I am being lied too


[re: XRaySpeX] [link to this post]
 
Thanks for the explination.

I will be calling orange to cancle today.

I was assured LLU at the point of sale and I am on WBC.
Standard User E7er
(knowledge is power) Sat 02-Apr-11 09:45:48
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Re: Orange Home Broadband... feel like I am being lied too


[re: backtogeek] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by backtogeek:
Thanks for the explination.

I will be calling orange to cancle today.

I was assured LLU at the point of sale and I am on WBC.
Hi backtogeek, with you being able to use the BT speed checker and your Down Speed 736 kbps. It looks you are on the new BT WBC 21CN 24Mbit/s service, that all Orange LLU broadband customers will be moved over to this year where WBC 21CN is installed.

I see at your exchange NEATH TE it has only just been installed 31/03/2011
With your Line Attenuation 64.0 db or 59db you will not get a great speed, you could see what your line is capable of after the 10 days training period.

http://www.samknows.com/broadband/exchange/SWNM

WBC 21CN Data Sheet https://www.btwholesale.com/pages/downloads/Communit...

BT WBC 21CN https://www.btwholesale.com/pages/static/Community/B...

Orange (SMPF) LLU 20 Meg. Sync 11864 Kbps Downstream, 1157 Kbps Upstream.
3Com 3CRWDR101A-75 ADSL2/2+ wireless router
Netgear DGN1000 ADSL2+ wireless N 150 Router supplied by Orange
BT Business Hub 2Wire 2700HGV v2 ADSL2+ Dual SSID wireless Router
Standard User backtogeek
(newbie) Sat 02-Apr-11 09:56:01
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Re: Orange Home Broadband... feel like I am being lied too


[re: E7er] [link to this post]
 
indeed, I sync between 2600 - 2800 I have a very good quality line for the length (Cost me a few favours) and if I sync at 2600 I want 2600, with WBC I am still subject to an IP profile so will be reduced to 2000.

So if thats the case I would rather cancle and go back to plusnet at least they have customer service worth talking too.
Standard User XRaySpeX
(knowledge is power) Sat 02-Apr-11 11:01:20
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Re: Orange Home Broadband... feel like I am being lied too


[re: backtogeek] [link to this post]
 
What I didn't mention before is that actual throughput is less than Sync (about 83%) because the transmission carries overheads, just like a letter needs an envelope so the PO can deliver it to you but you throw away the envelope (17% of weight) when you receive it to read the actual letter (83% of weight).

Even when you Sync @ 2600 you will never get more than about 2160 with any ISP. So, if you allow the IP Profile to finish training, you will get almost the tops.

You probably won't be much different with another ISP, even LLU, with your v. high attn.

1999: Freeserve 48K Dial-Up => 2005: Wanadoo 1 Meg BB => 2007: Orange 2 Meg BB => 2008: Orange 8 Meg LLU BB => 2010: Orange 16 Meg LLU BB
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