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Standard User dosfbb
(newbie) Tue 24-Jan-12 21:07:41
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Orange ISP Connection Drop Outs and Slow Speeds


[link to this post]
 
Hello everyone,

I am new here and this is my first post i hope that i have posted it in the correct area. I used to think i knew a fair bit about computers until i read some of the threads on here. I am pretty clueless with routers and broad band terms so if i have overlooked something it is an oversight on my part not arrogance to blame my ISP.

Unfortunately i am having problems with my broadband connection. The service provider is Orange, they are the ISP and line rental (BT line).
The service began in December and its been poor from the beginning, i was told when i signed up that i would receive 11Mb/s. At the moment i am getting 3Mb/s and that is the best that i have seen it since the service began. In addition to this disappointing speed (compared to what i was assured i would receive) i am getting constant signal drop outs.

I have reported these matters three times to the level 1 support, the first time i was told a BT engineer would look at the exchange, i was never called back but upon calling a second time i was told the first fault was logged as solved and closed. The second call i was told they would do a remote reboot of the router. In both cases there was no improvement in service.
A third call to orange i was told that my line was capable of significantly faster speed than what i was receiving at that moment, i was told that there was noise on the line that was preventing a speed to settle and it had been erratic and that explained the loss of signal the operator went on to inform me that my line had been monitored since the 11th January and the speeds shown are erratic 2Mb/s 3Mb/s 11Mb/s. I was told that once the noise issue is addressed i should get a settled service and faster speeds. As the operator was convinced of this diagnosis he put me through to orange telephone services who then ran a test which showed no faults on the line, the operator asked that i take a call with him on my landline (i rang on mobile originally) during the land line call he commented about the background noise but given this was an international call (orange have a fault centre off shore) this is not surprising, he then asked that i use a second handset which i didn't have, he advised me to obtain one plug it into the test socket then call back, the purpose of this exercise i was told is that if the second handset was noisy then he would put it as a fault and call out an engineer to assess the problem but warned that if the fault was the result of equipment inside the property a charge would be levied against my account. Has anyone else been told this? I haven't had time to get a second handset yet, i am not sure whether this will demonstrate anything.

Since that third call i have plugged my router into the test socket, my download speed has not changed but the values in noise and attenuation have if you look at the two set of figures below both taken from the router status page.

Here are my router stats, the first is before i plugged into the test socket (with noise filter) the second is after i plugged into the test socket(still with noise filter). The noticeable difference is the noise margin but i dont know what this means, but the broad band speeds are about the same, the first reading was taken Monday 8:30pm and the second Tuesday 8:30pm.

ADSL Link Downstream Upstream
Connection Speed 3064 Kbps 1116 Kbps
Line Attenuation 26.9 dB 10.8 dB
Noise Margin 6.5 dB 6.3 dB

ADSL Link Downstream Upstream
Connection Speed 3072 Kbps 1192 Kbps
Line Attenuation 25.7 dB 10.0 dB
Noise Margin 18.0 dB 6.1 dB


I would like some help please i have never experienced such a problem with broadband at this house previously i was with AOL for 5 years they were the ISP and the Post Office were the landline (BT line) i was enticed by a cheaper deal without doing any home work on orange there appears to be many similar reports on the net in different forums, am i doing something wrong or is it orange?
I dont know what my former connection to AOL was like, all i can say is that it just worked it rarely faltered as a result i never bothered to look at my connection stats; the only comment i can make to my former connection is that on AOL i was able to stream BBC i player HD programs to my PS3 over wi-fi whereas now i cant even watch HD programs over an ethernet cable, a crude comparison i realise.

My operating systems are OSX tiger, Windows Vista SP2, IOS4 and IOS5 and PS3 all devices suffer drop out and slow speeds.

What is frustrating is that my GF's father has Orange ISP and is getting 11Mb/s with the same router and same computer OS platforms as me, the only difference is that he bought his own router (no orange software) and he is on a different exchange. With this in mind i know orange can provide a good ISP service his experience was so positive i never thought to question whether orange could deliver the speeds they assured me of.

I would be most grateful if someone could help me troubleshoot my home setup as i really want to be sure before an engineer comes out, would hate to be stung for something that was my fault.

Many thanks in advance and i apologise if i have rambled on in my first post.

A.

*Just read the forum sticky, best sum up my issues
1. ISP= Orange Speed at router= 3072Kbps(upstream 1192Kbps) Speedtest.net= 2.64Mbps(upload 1.00Mbps)
2. Router= Netgear DGN1000 N150 wireless ADSL2+ (with orange software/firmware on it)
3. Attenuation Down= 25.7dB Up 10.0dB Noise Margin Down= 18.0dB Up=6.1dB
4. The above stats are the test socket
5. I dont know which bit to check so i have copied the bt answer below
Your exchange is ADSL enabled, and our initial test on your line indicates that your line should be able to have an ADSL broadband service that provides a fixed line speed up to 2Mbps.

Our test also indicates that your line currently supports an estimated ADSL Max broadband line speed of 8Mbps; typically the line speed would range between 7Mbps and 8Mbps.

Our test also indicates that your line currently supports an estimated ADSL2+ broadband line speed of 13Mbps; typically the line speed would range between 7.5Mbps and 17.5Mbps. Our test also indicates that your line could support an estimated ADSL 2+ Annex-M broadband upstream line speed of 1Mbps and downstream line speed of 13Mbps; typically the downstream speed would range between 7.5Mbps and 17.5Mbps.
Standard User RobertoS
(sensei) Tue 24-Jan-12 21:56:14
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Re: Orange ISP Connection Drop Outs and Slow Speeds


[re: dosfbb] [link to this post]
 
Hi dosfbb. Welcome to the forums.

A pretty sad state of affairs frown.

Let's start with the easy, and encouraging, bit smile. The almost certainly reliable figure in your stats is the attenuation of under 27dB. That means that is very likely your line can achieve a lot more than the estimate of 11Mbps. That comes from a rather unreliable BT database. With an attenuation of 27dB a connection speed of something between 15Mbps and 17.5Mbps can be expected.

The hard bit is finding why you aren't getting it. I've a few suggestions.

One thing I strongly recommend is you do as one of the support guys said about a handset. A cordless one isn't the best idea for diagnosing line problems, but a cheap corded one is a good idea to have around. We have one in a cupboard, and have been on cordless for normal use for 10 years.

This sort of thing from Amazon would be fine. Plenty of others there and you may have a shop nearby with others.

You don't sound daft, but please can you confirm that by the "test socket" you are thinking of the one on the wall at the back in this pic. Many people do get mixed up, and we could waste a lot of time if you are talking about the external socket smile.

Cordless phones can easily introduce electrical noise onto a line. That's why a corded one is important. If you plug that into the test socket, no filter, just the phone, and try the Quiet Line Test, 17070 option 2, it should be silent.

If that is noisy, we have probably found the problem. That's why it is the first thing to try. Also, while the faceplate is off, make sure no extensions work.

If it is noisy, you ring BT, not Orange, as they are your phone line rental company. You tell them you have tried a corded phone into the test socket and it is noisy. (This is what you are told to do in the BT Phone Book if you suspect a line fault). Do not mention broadband at all in the conversation!

If you mention you have a broadband problem they will do a body-swerve/pass the buck, and tell you to contact your ISP. That is pointless as you have established there is a voice fault, and Orange (a) probably can't detect it, and (b) certainly can't do anything to get it fixed. It isn't their phone line.

There is a 99.999% probability that fixing the voice fault will (largely) fix the broadband problem. I say "largely" because the broadband settings will be screwed, but we can sort those out later.

If that Quiet line test is silent, then we have something more complicated. But let's see if the simple solution works first.

While you wait for the phone, have a browse of my Troubleshooting section. Ignore the "Odd speed test results" and "Router acting oddly" pages. See if anything there applies to you.

Good luck smile.

My broadband basic info/help site - www.robertos.me.uk
My domains,website and mail hosting - Tsohost. Internet connection - IDNet Home Starter Fibre. Live BQM.

"Where talent is a dwarf, self-esteem is a giant." - Jean-Antoine Petit-Senn.
Standard User vimto_girl
(regular) Tue 24-Jan-12 22:14:42
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Re: Orange ISP Connection Drop Outs and Slow Speeds


[re: dosfbb] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by dosfbb:
ADSL Link Downstream Upstream
Connection Speed 3064 Kbps 1116 Kbps
Line Attenuation 26.9 dB 10.8 dB
Noise Margin 6.5 dB 6.3 dB

ADSL Link Downstream Upstream
Connection Speed 3072 Kbps 1192 Kbps
Line Attenuation 25.7 dB 10.0 dB
Noise Margin 18.0 dB 6.1 dB
The huge rise in downstream noise margin when using the test socket shows the fault lies with your extension wiring which is introducing a lot of noise. It looks like the line management has already accounted for this and capped your sync to 3Mbps. You can keep in the test socket, report to Orange that you have fixed your wiring and ask for the Line Management to be reset. An ADSL filter faceplate to the master socket and the router plugged in there would be an easy fix long-term.

Reported router stats vary massively model to model, nobody can estimate sync speed without knowing the router model in question. 27dB line attenuation on your Netgear would be reported as 33dB+ on a Thomson for example. I would therefore expect a speed of around 11-13Mbps and would be surprised at much more, but this is just an experienced guess.


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Standard User XRaySpeX
(eat-sleep-adslguide) Tue 24-Jan-12 22:15:10
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Re: Orange ISP Connection Drop Outs and Slow Speeds - EDITED


[re: dosfbb] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by dosfbb:
the only difference is that he bought his own router (no orange software)
Even with an Orange Router there is no need for any of their software on your PC, if that's what you mean. Never use an ISP's installation CD.

This is what you can get (with Netgear DG834GT router) on Orange with your sort of attenuation smile:
ADSL Link Downstream Upstream
Connection Speed 18272 kbps 1166 kbps
Line Attenuation 25.5 db 13.9 db
Noise Margin 4.3 db 6.1 db
As Roberto recommends, do a Quiet Line Test, 17070 option 2 with a cheap corded phone. It's far more indicative than some Indian trying to phone you from afar frown.

1999: Freeserve 48K Dial-Up => 2005: Wanadoo 1 Meg BB => 2007: Orange 2 Meg BB => 2008: Orange 8 Meg LLU => 2010: Orange 16 Meg LLU => 2011: Orange 19 Meg WBC

Edited by XRaySpeX (Tue 24-Jan-12 22:17:49)

Standard User XRaySpeX
(eat-sleep-adslguide) Tue 24-Jan-12 22:25:04
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Re: Orange ISP Connection Drop Outs and Slow Speeds


[re: vimto_girl] [link to this post]
 
Could be a case of removing ring wire, if not already done.

I found that a BT ADSL filtered faceplate more noisy on voice than the normal one and still had to add dangly filter to silence it. Have since removed it.

1999: Freeserve 48K Dial-Up => 2005: Wanadoo 1 Meg BB => 2007: Orange 2 Meg BB => 2008: Orange 8 Meg LLU => 2010: Orange 16 Meg LLU => 2011: Orange 19 Meg WBC
Standard User RobertoS
(sensei) Tue 24-Jan-12 22:39:15
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Re: Orange ISP Connection Drop Outs and Slow Speeds


[re: vimto_girl] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by vimto_girl:
Largely but not entirely making an awful lot of very assertive statements.

I agree the line may have been capped by the DLM. I alluded to the DLM settings probably being messed up in my reply to the OP.

As for a 6dB variation in reported attenuation between different makes of router, I have never seen anything approaching that posted on these forums by anyone. My personal experience is of Linksys, two SpeedTouch 585v6s, and several Broadcom-based Netgears. The range of attenuations reported was 3dB.

As the attenuation reported is under 27dB, and this appears to be the figure used in the "training" of the line when negotiating the sync speed, (as the higher attenuation router always obtains a commensurately lower sync), your comment is in any case irrelevant.

The expected sync for a 27dB attenuation, with a 6dB sync-time noise margin, is normally within the range I quoted. Slightly higher with a perfect line; and grossly lower with a fault of some sort as we have in this case, is also possible.

Your suggestions as to the OP's course of action I completely reject.

My broadband basic info/help site - www.robertos.me.uk
My domains,website and mail hosting - Tsohost. Internet connection - IDNet Home Starter Fibre. Live BQM.

"Where talent is a dwarf, self-esteem is a giant." - Jean-Antoine Petit-Senn.
Standard User dosfbb
(newbie) Tue 24-Jan-12 23:40:11
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Re: Orange ISP Connection Drop Outs and Slow Speeds


[re: RobertoS] [link to this post]
 
Hello there, thank you for getting back to me so quickly.

OK so i will reply in order,

Number 1 response to RobertoS
I have gotten hold of a fixed wired telephone (non wireless) and the line is significantly clearer to the extent that you would never think there is a fault with audio quality and by my lay person measure i would assume therefore there is no fault on the line. But when i call 17070option 2 there is a quiet background noise, i wouldnt say it was loud and if that happened during a normal telephone conversation i dare say i would notice it; how perfect is the line meant to be?

In terms of the BT socket when i say test i mean what is shown in the picture below, it looks different to the one you have shown in your picture. I only use the term 'test socket' as this is what the orange operator told me it was called. Since using this socket i have not had a drop out in a 3 hour window, but the speeds are still lower than expected so i am at least making some progress on the situation.

[img]http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7142/6757065783_6e1bbb...[/img]


Number 2 response to Vimto_girl
You make a point which i never would have considered, do you propose that the effect of house wiring could have distorted the value for what my line could take by the line management of the ISP? The only reason i ask is now that i have eliminated all house wiring i have not had a single drop of line connection which may support what you have said if i have interpreted your statement correctly. But the question remains why didnt i have this problem with my previous ISP?
Is a reset of line management a big thing? would it bare a cost or is it just one of those common requests an ISP receives from users- what would that involve me doing i.e. leave the router on for a lengthy period to bed down?
When you say ADSL filter faceplate do you mean an I-plate like the one shown here in this video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UNUMwZQ-lbk&feature=r...

Number 3 response to XRaySpeX
I meant the firmware on the router, i read on this forum i think that these routers from orange are locked down, just thought i would mention it incase someone advised a firmware update. I havent installed any software from orange on any of my PC/devices.
Please pardon my ignorance, but what is ring wire?
Your experience of the faceplate, did it result in improved broadband speed at the cost of call clarity, i would be happy with that, we only use the land line for internet access.



At this stage i don't know what to do next. I am quite pleased that i have this evening enjoyed three and a half hours uninterrupted internet connection but i do think i should be getting higher speeds.
In terms of problem shooting, my GF's father has said he will swap routers with me to see if we can eliminate a fault in that part of the setup or would anyone suggest to me at this stage it is not a router fault? Would it be best at this stage to call Orange and state that it is not the phone line at fault and that the signal drop outs do not occur in the test socket (or what ever it is called) and ask for a reset of line management as the speeds are still lower than expected.
If anyone would like me to carry out more checks for me before i do i will happily do so.

Many thanks again.

A.
Standard User XRaySpeX
(eat-sleep-adslguide) Wed 25-Jan-12 01:36:18
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Re: Orange ISP Connection Drop Outs and Slow Speeds


[re: dosfbb] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by dosfbb:
Your experience of the faceplate, did it result in improved broadband speed at the cost of call clarity, i would be happy with that,
It made not a blind bit of diff to my BB. but then it wouldn't as I had no extensions anyway. It was unnecessary; BT OR only fitted it for "cosmetic" purposes frown.
In reply to a post by dosfbb:
we only use the land line for internet access.
But you do have extension sockets? Cuz removing the faceplate shot up the NM considerably as it disengaged the extensions.

You did do the BT Quiet Line Test from your test socket (which is the same as the one Roberto showed) with router discon'ed? It should be completely silent.

Improve your adsl broadband connection speed - Removing the Ring Wire

1999: Freeserve 48K Dial-Up => 2005: Wanadoo 1 Meg BB => 2007: Orange 2 Meg BB => 2008: Orange 8 Meg LLU => 2010: Orange 16 Meg LLU => 2011: Orange 19 Meg WBC
Standard User dosfbb
(newbie) Wed 25-Jan-12 18:01:19
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Re: Orange ISP Connection Drop Outs and Slow Speeds


[re: XRaySpeX] [link to this post]
 
Hello XRaySpeX
I do have extension sockets, now that they are out of the setup should i call orange and ask for a reset of line management?
When i did the noise test i must confess i did not take the router out which i now see as a foolish mistake. I just performed a test with just the phone in the test socket and it is significantly quieter than with the router, i would say it is almost silent not completely there is a feint hiss but you have to concentrate hard to hear it. Is the line meant to be dead silent are there no margins of error to be expected?

On a different note, last night and all day today i left the router in the test socket with a noise filter (and a simple corded phone coming out the other socket of the filter) and the values of the router status appear to have changed again. These are the latest

Connection Speed 3064Kbps 1187Kbps
Line Attenuation 25.6dB 10.0dB
Noise Margin 30.3dB 6.2dB


Also one more thing, i note that i may have had at least one signal drop out during the night as the router status shows the following stats(prior to the most recent 17070 option2 test). Can anyone confirm this for me based on the values below?

System Up Time 21:32:10
WAN PPPoA UpTime 09:12:38
LAN 10m/100m 21:31:51
WLAN 11m/54m/150m 21:31:54

all the above stats had the same value when i left for work this morning. Any advice as to the next course of action?

Many thanks once again,A.
Standard User vimto_girl
(regular) Wed 25-Jan-12 19:29:56
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Re: Orange ISP Connection Drop Outs and Slow Speeds


[re: dosfbb] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by dosfbb:
Number 2 response to Vimto_girl
You make a point which i never would have considered, do you propose that the effect of house wiring could have distorted the value for what my line could take by the line management of the ISP? The only reason i ask is now that i have eliminated all house wiring i have not had a single drop of line connection which may support what you have said if i have interpreted your statement correctly. But the question remains why didnt i have this problem with my previous ISP?
Is a reset of line management a big thing? would it bare a cost or is it just one of those common requests an ISP receives from users- what would that involve me doing i.e. leave the router on for a lengthy period to bed down?
When you say ADSL filter faceplate do you mean an I-plate like the one shown here in this video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UNUMwZQ-lbk&feature=r...
Yes, that's exactly what I conclude about your house wiring. If you can relocate your router to the master socket and want to keep the extension sockets for phone available, a filtered faceplate is the best solution. I don't mean an I-plate, but a faceplate that has an ADSL filter built-in like this one and which effectively isolates all your extension wiring from the ADSL portion. You can alternatively just disconnect your extension wiring from the back of your existing faceplate.

The line management reset is just a click of a button with no cost. Line management is always running, and you should leave your modem on all the time anyway really. Don't ever tell a provider something was not their fault, just say you have made changes to your internal wiring and would now like to see how it goes, and will get back to them.

Your latest set of stats show good noise figures, whereas they were on the poor side before (but not really on the "definitely faulty-looking" side IMO). I would therefore now expect higher sync speed than the estimate if that is maintained.

There a whole bunch of good technical reasons you may not have had frequent disconnections with your previous provider - a lot of things have changed that may have precipitated the effect of your wiring. Sure, there could be other issues, nobody can be sure until we see, but it looks like this is the likely culprit for now and I stand by my recommended steps.
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