General Discussion
  >> General Broadband Chatter


Register (or login) on our website and you will not see this ad.


Pages in this thread: 1 | 2 | 3 | (show all)   Print Thread
Standard User jayteepics
(newbie) Sun 14-Oct-12 15:31:34
Print Post

Is this a fair assessment please?


[link to this post]
 
I am writing a piece for our village newsletter and would appreciate feedback on accuracy and fairness of the following:-

"Market 1 means that the ‘Local Loop’ has not been unbundled or LLU’d this means that non-BT Internet Service Providers (ISPs) have to pay BT wholesale to compete for your business but you will pay a premium price for that service and if that premium is not passed on to your bill then your ISP is swallowing it to achieve greater market share. One notable ISP exception who will not take this loss but will pass it on to you is O2 who want £30pm incl. line rental if you are an O2 mobile customer and £35pm if you are not. Note this is for a theoretical max. ADSL speed of 8Mbps making the TV ads an irrelvant joke.
To conclude, not only are rural communities likely to have to wait up until 2020 to get on the superfast broadband highway but in the meantime they are being left languishing on the ‘Slow and Expensive ‘B’ Roads."

TIA
Standard User uno
(knowledge is power) Sun 14-Oct-12 15:36:27
Print Post

Re: Is this a fair assessment please?


[re: jayteepics] [link to this post]
 
Ignoring the bold.. a little unfair to finger O2, as Sky do the same and Talk Talk have even stopped offering out of network customers services at all!

Matt

uno Broadband
t: 0808 221 8642
Official Maidenhead, Milton Keynes & Sheffield Speedtest.net Host
Standard User jayteepics
(newbie) Sun 14-Oct-12 15:39:17
Print Post

Re: Is this a fair assessment please?


[re: uno] [link to this post]
 
Matt fair point it may not have come over but I actually respect O2 for their position


Register (or login) on our website and you will not see this ad.

Standard User RobertoS
(sensei) Sun 14-Oct-12 16:21:53
Print Post

Re: Is this a fair assessment please?


[re: jayteepics] [link to this post]
 
It reads to me as though you are particularly criticising them. As you apparently didn't intend that, I suggest some re-wording is indicated.

Is a premium price charged though? There are plenty of customers on all the LLU exchanges who are not on LLU, being charged the same as you on a Market 1 exchange.

The one ISP I know of giving a discount on Market 2 and 3 is Plusnet, as they are charged less.

Orange, which is in fact just a sales force for a direct BT Wholesale service, charge a premium on all the exchanges they themselves had not LLU'ed at the time they ceased to be a real ISP and became a vISP. That includes some Market 2 and 3 exchanges, as well as the obvious Market 1.
Edit - Typo spelling mistake in "criticising".

My broadband basic info/help site - www.robertos.me.uk | Domains,website and mail hosting - Tsohost.
Connection - Plusnet Extra Fibre (FTTC). Sync ~ 57.4/14.6Mbps @ 600m. - BQM

"Where talent is a dwarf, self-esteem is a giant." - Jean-Antoine Petit-Senn.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Allergy information: This post was manufactured in an environment where nuts are present. It may include traces of understatement, litotes and humour.

Edited by RobertoS (Sun 14-Oct-12 16:38:43)

Standard User jayteepics
(newbie) Sun 14-Oct-12 16:36:34
Print Post

Re: Is this a fair assessment please?


[re: RobertoS] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by RobertoS:
It reads to me as though you are particularly critcising them. As you apparently didn't intend that, I suggest some re-wording is indicated.

I have had a go at changing this...

Market 1 means that the ‘Local Loop’ has not been unbundled or LLU’d this means that non-BT Internet Service Providers (ISPs) have to pay BT wholesale to compete for your business but you will pay a premium price for that service and if that premium is not passed on to your bill then your ISP is swallowing it to achieve greater market share. O2 is one of the ISP’s who, quite understandably, will not take this loss but will pass it on to you. They will charge you £30pm incl. line rental if you are an O2 mobile customer and £35pm if you are not. Note this is for a theoretical max. ADSL speed of 8Mbps making the TV ads an irrelvant joke. It also should be noted that some ISPs have even stopped offering ‘out of network’ customers services entirely.
To conclude, not only are rural communities likely to have to wait up until 2020 to get on the “Superfast Broadband Highway” but in the meantime they are being left languishing on the “Slow and Expensive ‘B’ Roads”.



Is a premium price charged though? There are plenty of customers on all the LLU exchanges who are not on LLU, being charged the same as you on a Market 1 exchange.

The above is food for thought - Thanks
Could your point me to some further reading on this as I clearly don't know enough about this.

Interesting about Orange too


The one ISP I know of giving a discount on Market 2 and 3 is Plusnet, as they are charged less.

Orange, which is in fact just a sales force for a direct BT Wholesale service, charge a premium on all the exchanges they themselves had not LLU'ed at the time they ceased to be a real ISP and became a vISP. That includes some Market 2 and 3 exchanges, as well as the obvious Market 1.
Standard User RobertoS
(sensei) Sun 14-Oct-12 16:36:55
Print Post

Re: Is this a fair assessment please?


[re: jayteepics] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by jayteepics:
"Market 1 means that the ‘Local Loop’ has not been unbundled or LLU’d this means that non-BT Internet Service Providers (ISPs) have to pay BT wholesale to compete for your business....
That looks to be wrong way round to me. Surely you mean the BT Wholesale-based ones?

I think you will find very few of your readers will know that BT Retail broadband is not what you are talking about. There's quite a bit of jargon there jumbled up together, impenetrable to many. On proof-reading what I just written, I'm not sure I'm even reading your draft correctly myself.

Have you read my page on What is LLU? There's a lot more than you need in there, but it might help you explain more clearly. It might even be better not to use the acronym LLU and just say that only BT Wholesale have broadband equipment there. That Sky, O2 and TalkTalk do not, so any service they offer is based on the BT Wholesale service like all others, which is why it is more expensive than where they have their own equipment.

There's also a very important point you don't mention. That is whether or not the exchange is WBC (21CN) enabled. If it is, then the speeds available are not slow.

My broadband basic info/help site - www.robertos.me.uk | Domains,website and mail hosting - Tsohost.
Connection - Plusnet Extra Fibre (FTTC). Sync ~ 57.4/14.6Mbps @ 600m. - BQM

"Where talent is a dwarf, self-esteem is a giant." - Jean-Antoine Petit-Senn.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Allergy information: This post was manufactured in an environment where nuts are present. It may include traces of understatement, litotes and humour.
Standard User jayteepics
(newbie) Sun 14-Oct-12 16:42:00
Print Post

Re: Is this a fair assessment please?


[re: RobertoS] [link to this post]
 
Thanks for the 'What is LLU' link I'm off to read it.

Regarding whether the exchange is WBC (21CN) enabled I doubt it. The exchange is WWCHIS can you tell me how I could find out about what is and is not in our exchange if it isn't too much to ask please?
Standard User RobertoS
(sensei) Sun 14-Oct-12 16:47:47
Print Post

Re: Is this a fair assessment please?


[re: jayteepics] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by jayteepics:
In reply to a post by RobertoS:
Is a premium price charged though? There are plenty of customers on all the LLU exchanges who are not on LLU, being charged the same as you on a Market 1 exchange.
The above is food for thought - Thanks
Could your point me to some further reading on this as I clearly don't know enough about this.
No reading, but just think about it.

Market 2 or 3 by definition means there are LLU suppliers or Virgin Media cable. Let's ignore the VM for the purpose of this discussion and assume at least one LLU supplier.

BT Wholesale is present in all exchanges, with BT Broadband, Plusnet, (special case already mentioned), Zen, IDNet, all Entanet resellers, vivaciti, xilo/uno, ADSL24, ukfsn, Claranet, Timico/Newnet, etc. etc. Over a hundred ISPs offering BT Wholesale based services. All the Market 2 and Market 3 customers of all those ISPs, (PN and Orange excepted), are paying the same as Market 1 users.

My broadband basic info/help site - www.robertos.me.uk | Domains,website and mail hosting - Tsohost.
Connection - Plusnet Extra Fibre (FTTC). Sync ~ 57.4/14.6Mbps @ 600m. - BQM

"Where talent is a dwarf, self-esteem is a giant." - Jean-Antoine Petit-Senn.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Allergy information: This post was manufactured in an environment where nuts are present. It may include traces of understatement, litotes and humour.
Standard User RobertoS
(sensei) Sun 14-Oct-12 16:52:03
Print Post

Re: Is this a fair assessment please?


[re: jayteepics] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by jayteepics:
Regarding whether the exchange is WBC (21CN) enabled I doubt it. The exchange is WWCHIS can you tell me how I could find out about what is and is not in our exchange if it isn't too much to ask please?
http://www.samknows.com/broadband/exchange/WWCHIS

21CN WBC status is shown as Not available. That is the BT Wholesale "up to 24Mbps" service that matches LLU for speed.

Although your exchange doesn't have it at the moment, somewhere there is a list of those which are in a current expansion of it. I'm afraid I don't have a link for the list.

My broadband basic info/help site - www.robertos.me.uk | Domains,website and mail hosting - Tsohost.
Connection - Plusnet Extra Fibre (FTTC). Sync ~ 57.4/14.6Mbps @ 600m. - BQM

"Where talent is a dwarf, self-esteem is a giant." - Jean-Antoine Petit-Senn.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Allergy information: This post was manufactured in an environment where nuts are present. It may include traces of understatement, litotes and humour.
Administrator MrSaffron
(staff) Sun 14-Oct-12 17:07:24
Print Post

Re: Is this a fair assessment please?


[re: jayteepics] [link to this post]
 
While market 1 may strictly mean no LLU, with TalkTalk pushing to 93% of the country until Ofcom does a review on the market definitions there are a good number of exchanges that are mis-classified.

I'd suggest better to not mention market 1 at all, and just refer to your small exchange if it is that, and that the cheapest options may not be available in the area. County Council in theory is investing (don't know your area) so things may change in three years time.

O2 Access which is their offnet product does not have a good reputation in terms of peoples experience.

Andrew Ferguson, andrew@thinkbroadband.com
www.thinkbroadband.com - formerly known as ADSLguide.org.uk
The author of the above post is a thinkbroadband staff member. It may not constitute an official statement on behalf of thinkbroadband.
Pages in this thread: 1 | 2 | 3 | (show all)   Print Thread

Jump to