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Standard User Vince730i
(newbie) Sat 30-Mar-13 20:38:37
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DSL Error Help


[link to this post]
 
Hi all.

I'm new here and looking for any info on the problems I'm having with EE ADSL Home Broadband.
I've been a customer with them since February this year and spent more time talking to the tech department than my own family!!
Any help with the following info from my ADSL Status page.
Thanks in advance smile

ADSL STATUS

This page shows information about your ADSL connection if applicable.

Status
Configured Current
Line Status --- SHOWTIME
Link Type --- Fast Path
Operation Mode Automatic G992.5(ADSL2+)
Data Rate Information
Stream Type Actual Data Rate
Upstream 691 (Kbps.)
Downstream 9727 (Kbps.)
Defect/Failure Indication
Operation Data Upstream Downstream
Noise Margin 14.9 dB 16.3 dB
Line Attenuation 17.6 dB 33.0 dB
Indicator Name Near End Indicator Far End Indicator
Output Power 10.1 dBm 0.0 dBm
Fast Path FEC Correction 0 0
Interleaved Path FEC Correction NA NA
Fast Path CRC Error 1800 65
Interleaved Path CRC Error NA NA
Loss of Signal Defect 250 0
Fast Path HEC Error STR 3215 24
Interleaved Path HEC Error NA NA
Error Seconds 8826 4694
Statistics
Received Cells 18356482
Transmitted Cells 16496282
Standard User 4M2
(fountain of knowledge) Sat 30-Mar-13 20:50:43
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Re: DSL Error Help


[re: Vince730i] [link to this post]
 
You possibly have a noisy line: noise margins are excessive and they are holding back your sync speeds!

Did technical support advise you, at any stage, to connect the router to the NTE5 test socket and then check the router stats for the noise margin values and sync speeds?
Standard User XRaySpeX
(eat-sleep-adslguide) Sat 30-Mar-13 20:54:00
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Re: DSL Error Help


[re: Vince730i] [link to this post]
 
You should be getting a 13 Meg Downstream sync speed @ 6dB NM.
In reply to a post by Vince730i:
Operation Data Upstream Downstream
Noise Margin 14.9 dB 16.3 dB
That's the problem; the Down NM is far too high. EE are prone to holding users NMs unnecessarily high. You need to speak to Orange's Fault Management Team to release them.

What is "Time Connected: " on top Status page and was that when you last hard rebooted router?

1999: Freeserve 48K Dial-Up => 2005: Wanadoo 1 Meg BB => 2007: Orange 2 Meg BB => 2008: Orange 8 Meg LLU => 2010: Orange 16 Meg LLU => 2011: Orange 20 Meg WBC


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Standard User XRaySpeX
(eat-sleep-adslguide) Sat 30-Mar-13 20:57:26
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Re: DSL Error Help


[re: Vince730i] [link to this post]
 
What speed did they promise you upon joining?

1999: Freeserve 48K Dial-Up => 2005: Wanadoo 1 Meg BB => 2007: Orange 2 Meg BB => 2008: Orange 8 Meg LLU => 2010: Orange 16 Meg LLU => 2011: Orange 20 Meg WBC
Standard User 4M2
(fountain of knowledge) Sat 30-Mar-13 20:58:00
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Re: DSL Error Help


[re: XRaySpeX] [link to this post]
 
Yep, and OP only has an upstream sync of 691Kbps on fastpath!
Standard User XRaySpeX
(eat-sleep-adslguide) Sat 30-Mar-13 21:06:19
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Re: DSL Error Help


[re: 4M2] [link to this post]
 
Yep, sorting out the more predominant (grin) downstream often sorts out the upstream too.

1999: Freeserve 48K Dial-Up => 2005: Wanadoo 1 Meg BB => 2007: Orange 2 Meg BB => 2008: Orange 8 Meg LLU => 2010: Orange 16 Meg LLU => 2011: Orange 20 Meg WBC

Edited by XRaySpeX (Sat 30-Mar-13 22:05:58)

Standard User 4M2
(fountain of knowledge) Sat 30-Mar-13 21:11:07
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Re: DSL Error Help


[re: XRaySpeX] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by XRaySpeX:
Yep, sorting out the more important downstream often sorts out the upstream too.


Both are equally important for me personally, but I know exactly what you mean smile
Standard User yarwell
(sensei) Sat 30-Mar-13 21:11:19
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Re: DSL Error Help


[re: Vince730i] [link to this post]
 
Loss of Signal Defect 250 0
Error Seconds 8826 4694


Not sure how long it was on, but that's a lot of signal losses and explains why the noise margin has got ramped up.

What symptoms do you have ?

Do you have extension wiring, is everything plugged into the phone system fed through a filter, etc.

--

Phil

MaxDSL - goes as fast as it can and doesn't read the line checker first.

MaxDSL diagnostics

Edited by yarwell (Sat 30-Mar-13 21:12:36)

Standard User Vince730i
(newbie) Sat 30-Mar-13 22:21:33
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Re: DSL Error Help


[re: yarwell] [link to this post]
 
I've had the router connected permanently since a BT Engineer visited 11 days ago. Every thing was fine for 9days - so all of the signal losses are from the past 48 hours. I've got noise on my landline and I have a new master socket that doesn't require the micro filter as its now built in. I have tried using a micro filter this morning to see if it helped, but no change at all. I had the Engineer disconnect all the extensions in my house in case they were causing the same fault the first time around. The router has been connected for nearly 12 hours solid now with no loss of signal at all.
I appreciate you reply. It's nice to know there are some helpful people still out there smile
Standard User Vince730i
(newbie) Sat 30-Mar-13 22:29:03
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Re: DSL Error Help


[re: XRaySpeX] [link to this post]
 
Interesting question. I was told that I can expect speeds of between 9 and 13 meg, but realistically I should get 9.5. Anyway, I went ahead and confirmed the order and waited till everything arrived and set it up as instructed. I logged into my account and noticed a selection to do with my speed and clicked on it. It stated that I am forecast to recieve 2meg download. When I spoke to EE I asked if it was a mistake and was told that my line would support and has been set at 4.5 D/L but it will vary anywhere between 3.5 and 5.5. My previous connection was "interleaved" but has been on Fast Path since the Engineer vist. Thanks again for your help smile
Standard User 4M2
(fountain of knowledge) Sat 30-Mar-13 22:31:25
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Re: DSL Error Help


[re: Vince730i] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by Vince730i:
I've got noise on my landline and I have a new master socket...


???

Did fitting a new master socket and filtered faceplate cure the landline noise?

Was it an OR SFI engineer who did the work and did he check your line from the test socket?
Standard User Vince730i
(newbie) Sat 30-Mar-13 22:35:57
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Re: DSL Error Help


[re: 4M2] [link to this post]
 
If anything, since the new socket and filtered faceplate, its been a nightmare - and yes, an OR engineer fitted and tested my line afterwards. Oddly... Everything was fine for 9 days and I only had 2 loss of signals in that time. The rest are from the last 24 hours.
Standard User 4M2
(fountain of knowledge) Sat 30-Mar-13 22:40:16
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Re: DSL Error Help


[re: Vince730i] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by Vince730i:
If anything, since the new socket and filtered faceplate, its been a nightmare - and yes, an OR engineer fitted and tested my line afterwards. Oddly... Everything was fine for 9 days and I only had 2 loss of signals in that time. The rest are from the last 24 hours.


Can you just do a quick quiet line test using a corded phone if possible - dial 17070
Standard User Vince730i
(newbie) Sat 30-Mar-13 22:51:24
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Re: DSL Error Help


[re: 4M2] [link to this post]
 
I don't have a corded phone, but while I was watching my router earlier while trying to reconnect to broadband, I did do a quiet line test and could quite clearly hear crackling and a varing low to high tone.
I just can't quite work out what has caused this so quickly. I've disconnected my phone for now and spend most of the evening watching the lights on my router instead.
Standard User XRaySpeX
(eat-sleep-adslguide) Sat 30-Mar-13 23:20:49
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Re: DSL Error Help


[re: Vince730i] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by Vince730i:
I logged into my account and noticed a selection to do with my speed and clicked on it. It stated that I am forecast to receive 2meg download
If you mean this:
speed information

The speed estimate at registration or the speed we have measured on your line is 2.0Mb.
It has always said that about my 20 Meg sync line, and for others I have spoken to.

Therefore it is meaningless.

1999: Freeserve 48K Dial-Up => 2005: Wanadoo 1 Meg BB => 2007: Orange 2 Meg BB => 2008: Orange 8 Meg LLU => 2010: Orange 16 Meg LLU => 2011: Orange 20 Meg WBC
Standard User XRaySpeX
(eat-sleep-adslguide) Sat 30-Mar-13 23:32:32
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Re: DSL Error Help


[re: Vince730i] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by Vince730i:
I've got noise on my landline and I have a new master socket that doesn't require the micro filter as its now built in.
An OR eng fitted 1 of those for me for "cosmetic purposes". It was noisy! Since replaced by normal NTE5 faceplate + dangly filter; it is much better.

Recoomend you hard reboot router and plug into test socket with dangler (won't affect you as you have no extensions now).

Then run for a day or 2 and report back "Time Connected" & full router stats, so we can keep an eye on error rates.

1999: Freeserve 48K Dial-Up => 2005: Wanadoo 1 Meg BB => 2007: Orange 2 Meg BB => 2008: Orange 8 Meg LLU => 2010: Orange 16 Meg LLU => 2011: Orange 20 Meg WBC
Standard User 4M2
(fountain of knowledge) Sat 30-Mar-13 23:37:48
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Re: DSL Error Help


[re: Vince730i] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by Vince730i:
I don't have a corded phone, but while I was watching my router earlier while trying to reconnect to broadband, I did do a quiet line test and could quite clearly hear crackling and a varing low to high tone.
I just can't quite work out what has caused this so quickly. I've disconnected my phone for now and spend most of the evening watching the lights on my router instead.


Filtered faceplates do fail - tomorrow during daylight can you power off and connect the router to the test socket using only a dangle micro filter, turn on the router and then, once the connection is esbalished, immediately check and record the router stats? This will eliminate all your home wiring from the circuit with the faceplate removed and, if it is convenient, can you leave the router connected that way for a day or so in order that the line can be monitored?

Also do another quiet line test tomorrow with a corded phone, if you can get hold of one, connected to the test socket/micro filter.
Standard User yarwell
(sensei) Sun 31-Mar-13 08:38:45
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Re: DSL Error Help


[re: Vince730i] [link to this post]
 
If you have audible noise on the phone line then that's a fault that can be reported to your voice / telephony provider. Resolution of that will probably resolve the broadband issue.

The online fault reporting at bt.com and similar usually runs a test and gives a clue if a fault is detected.

--

Phil

MaxDSL - goes as fast as it can and doesn't read the line checker first.

MaxDSL diagnostics
Standard User Vince730i
(newbie) Sun 31-Mar-13 13:15:20
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Re: DSL Error Help


[re: 4M2] [link to this post]
 
Hi, to be honest I have had no losses of signal now for over 26 hours. So at present I have just left it alone. EE are sending out an OR Engineer on Tuesday, and I'm going to be having a chat with him and see what is going on. Regarding the filtered face plate, the OR Engineer that called before led me to believe that as I have the new faceplate, the telephone wire connects to the bottom and the RJ11 cable to the router connects to the top. And will only work in the top socket. I'm new to all this telephone stuff - so forgive me if I've made little sense. I'm guessing that there is still a master socket behind this new type of faceplate that I can plug a micro filter into ? I ask as I suspect a similar problem to crop up again in the not too distant future,
Standard User Vince730i
(newbie) Sun 31-Mar-13 13:20:24
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Re: DSL Error Help


[re: yarwell] [link to this post]
 
Thanks for your reply. I have done a quiet line test this morning and all seems to be fine. I've had no loss of signal now for the last 26 hours hours and apart from my upload speed being all but useless, all is good. I seem to of lost a considerable amount of upload speed during the 200 odd loss of signals.
Standard User yarwell
(sensei) Sun 31-Mar-13 13:37:26
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Re: DSL Error Help


[re: Vince730i] [link to this post]
 
yes, the fibre filtered faceplate has the xDSL connection at the top. The whole thing comes off to reveal the test socket as before.

--

Phil

MaxDSL - goes as fast as it can and doesn't read the line checker first.

MaxDSL diagnostics
Standard User XRaySpeX
(eat-sleep-adslguide) Sun 31-Mar-13 13:44:16
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Re: DSL Error Help


[re: Vince730i] [link to this post]
 
So just what were the symptoms or problem that prompted you to post here in the 1st place?

1999: Freeserve 48K Dial-Up => 2005: Wanadoo 1 Meg BB => 2007: Orange 2 Meg BB => 2008: Orange 8 Meg LLU => 2010: Orange 16 Meg LLU => 2011: Orange 20 Meg WBC
Standard User 4M2
(fountain of knowledge) Sun 31-Mar-13 13:48:02
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Re: DSL Error Help


[re: Vince730i] [link to this post]
 
You can remove that faceplate and in the master NTE5 you will see the test socket into which you can connect a dangle micro filter. It is the test socket that is normally used to check for any line problems since generally the rest of the home wiring (extensions etc.) will not be connected. It's an acceptable procedure for the end user to connect both the phone and phone plus router to the test socket - in the case of phone and router then a dangle micro filter should be used. Or for a router only connection to the test socket, then a modem lead (phone plug to rj11 lead) can be used without a micro filter.

I suspect that the OR engineer may only be coming to check for a voice fault since you haven't specifically mentioned that he will be a SFI engineer tasked with checking the broadband. However curing a voice fault, if there is one present, may be sufficient to improve your broadband performance issues.
Standard User Vince730i
(newbie) Sun 31-Mar-13 14:31:58
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Re: DSL Error Help


[re: XRaySpeX] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by XRaySpeX:
So just what were the symptoms or problem that prompted you to post here in the 1st place?



I came here due to the knowledge of the replies on the forum and because I have spoke with EE Fault Management Team at great length and they give very little away in terms of help. Also I was interested to know if there was anything I can do myself to help ease my broadband problem and make it more stable while EE decide what they will do next. I've has this loss of signal problem since day one of being with EE and I just can't seem to make them understand that I don't think the problem or issue is being resolved, more painted over than anything. They promised me faithfully that I would not experiance any further problems after the last OR engineer visit - yet its been worse and my disabled son relies heavily on a stable and reliable Internet connection. I have so many questions, but by posting the ADSL stats, I thought you guys might be able to tell me if I'm doing anything wrong. I'm willing to try any advice given, but would rather wait untill the loss of signal cycle starts again as I'm in the frame of mind that 'if its not broke, don't fix it' right now. EE didn't initially offer me a second engineer visit, but with NM fluctuating, I didn't understand what is good and bad until I found this forum. I have gained a lot of understanding in the hope that when I speak to EE Fault team... I can comfortably say what you have all advised. It's very helpful stuff and I really do appreciate all replies.
Standard User XRaySpeX
(eat-sleep-adslguide) Sun 31-Mar-13 14:41:31
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Re: DSL Error Help


[re: Vince730i] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by Vince730i:
would rather wait until the loss of signal cycle starts again
Loss of Signal is the obvious issue, but you don't know whether the other error indications, like Error Seconds, are too high w/out monitoring Time Connected. Our suggestions will cost you nothing.

EDIT: Eng visits can do nothing about the too high NMs; that can only be done by EE/BTw.

1999: Freeserve 48K Dial-Up => 2005: Wanadoo 1 Meg BB => 2007: Orange 2 Meg BB => 2008: Orange 8 Meg LLU => 2010: Orange 16 Meg LLU => 2011: Orange 20 Meg WBC

Edited by XRaySpeX (Sun 31-Mar-13 14:43:37)

Standard User Vince730i
(newbie) Sun 31-Mar-13 14:45:09
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Re: DSL Error Help


[re: 4M2] [link to this post]
 
Thank you for the detailed reply. I didn't really want to pull things apart just in case the new faceplate was different. All EE have said to me (regarding the engineer visit) is he will "sort it this time" hence why I came on here as I really didn't expect to see such a great loss of signals and fluctuating NM since an OR visit. Is it at all possible that the issue hay be coming from the exchange? And that leads me to the "Near End & Far End" question. Is near end my router and far end the exchange? Or is it a bit more technical than that? Sorry to keep asking questions, but I have a gut feeling that EE/Orange could be doing more to resolve this ongoing problem.
Standard User Vince730i
(newbie) Sun 31-Mar-13 14:55:30
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Re: DSL Error Help


[re: XRaySpeX] [link to this post]
 
I have to go out shortly, but I will reboot and connect directly to the master socket once I get back late this evening and post the router stats tomorrow. Do I have a higher than average values on anything from the stats page I posted ? I honestly have no idea as I've only just started looking into NM, Error Seconds and Loss of Signal ETC.... I have been trying to understand as much as possible, but I'm still unsure of what is good and bad apart from loss of signal which I know so many in a short time is very bad. I have new micro filters that came with my EE router. Is it best to use a new one or the previous one I was using with My old provider? I just want to make sure that everything is right to limit any errors on my part.
Standard User XRaySpeX
(eat-sleep-adslguide) Sun 31-Mar-13 15:02:35
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Re: DSL Error Help


[re: Vince730i] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by Vince730i:
And that leads me to the "Near End & Far End" question.
"Near End" is your router and measures downstream figures; "Far End" is the exchange and measures upstream figures. You should concentrate on "Near End" measures. "Far End" ones are held at exchange and nor affected by you rebooting router.

1999: Freeserve 48K Dial-Up => 2005: Wanadoo 1 Meg BB => 2007: Orange 2 Meg BB => 2008: Orange 8 Meg LLU => 2010: Orange 16 Meg LLU => 2011: Orange 20 Meg WBC
Standard User XRaySpeX
(eat-sleep-adslguide) Sun 31-Mar-13 15:10:20
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Re: DSL Error Help


[re: Vince730i] [link to this post]
 
Good!

NM: On good lines the Down Target (sync-time) NM should be 6dB or even 3dB and will then vary slightly during the sync session. Yours is far too high; your Target NM was probably 15dB. The higher the Target NM is the slower the sync speed. The UP Target NM is usually about 6dB.

1999: Freeserve 48K Dial-Up => 2005: Wanadoo 1 Meg BB => 2007: Orange 2 Meg BB => 2008: Orange 8 Meg LLU => 2010: Orange 16 Meg LLU => 2011: Orange 20 Meg WBC

Edited by XRaySpeX (Sun 31-Mar-13 15:13:59)

Standard User eckiedoo
(member) Sun 31-Mar-13 15:16:14
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Re: DSL Error Help


[re: Vince730i] [link to this post]
 
I suggest that as well as the EE Bright Box Stats, you should also try to get some idea of how long your phone line is.

That information may be available along with your Distribution Cabinet ID, via-

http://windows.mouselike.org/be/?DoAction=BrasChecker

(Some phones such as SKY are NOT included)

Regarding the "dongle", my understanding is that the xDSL/BB side is "straight-through", any Hi-Pass (Broad Band frequencies) filtering being built in to the Bright Box etc; and that it is a Lo-Pass (Low Frequency, audio only filter) on the phone side/output from the dongle.

So normally to test the Bright Box only, nothing else connected, you do not need the dongle.

However, there is a chance of failure in the Lo-Pas filter components (usually a choke/coil and capacitors) which could cause problems such as a (partial) short of the "straight-through" signal, so possibly a second test with other (new) dongles may help clarify.
Standard User Vince730i
(newbie) Sun 31-Mar-13 16:13:41
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Re: DSL Error Help


[re: eckiedoo] [link to this post]
 
I've just checked my landline number on the link you provided and this is the result

The current Downstream BRAS rate is: 8.58 Mbps
The current Upstream BRAS rate is: 0.83 Mbps

Exchange: EXETER (WWEXTR)
BT Recorded Line Length to Exchange (m): 1290
BE LLU: Activated
Real Error: Migration code required for this number

Don't know if this helps at all?

Here are my current ADSL Stats after 1 day, 4 hours and 37 minutes connected.


ADSL STATUS

This page shows information about your ADSL connection if applicable.

Status
Configured Current
Line Status --- SHOWTIME
Link Type --- Fast Path
Operation Mode Automatic G992.5(ADSL2+)
Data Rate Information
Stream Type Actual Data Rate
Upstream 691 (Kbps.)
Downstream 9727 (Kbps.)
Defect/Failure Indication
Operation Data Upstream Downstream
Noise Margin 14.9 dB 16.6 dB
Line Attenuation 17.6 dB 33.0 dB
Indicator Name Near End Indicator Far End Indicator
Output Power 10.1 dBm 0.0 dBm
Fast Path FEC Correction 0 0
Interleaved Path FEC Correction NA NA
Fast Path CRC Error 5574 68
Interleaved Path CRC Error NA NA
Loss of Signal Defect 250 0
Fast Path HEC Error STR 7093 25
Interleaved Path HEC Error NA NA
Error Seconds 9857 4697
Statistics
Received Cells 80053853
Transmitted Cells 43064149

Edited by Vince730i (Sun 31-Mar-13 16:23:26)

Standard User XRaySpeX
(eat-sleep-adslguide) Sun 31-Mar-13 17:25:41
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Re: DSL Error Help


[re: Vince730i] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by Vince730i:
Here are my current ADSL Stats after 1 day, 4 hours and 37 minutes connected.
That is not since the last hard reboot, so the error stats have not been reset since about 12 days ago and therefore cannot be properly assessed.

However, just comparing them with the set you posted in OP, they don't look too bad at a glance.

1999: Freeserve 48K Dial-Up => 2005: Wanadoo 1 Meg BB => 2007: Orange 2 Meg BB => 2008: Orange 8 Meg LLU => 2010: Orange 16 Meg LLU => 2011: Orange 20 Meg WBC
Standard User 4M2
(fountain of knowledge) Sun 31-Mar-13 17:27:28
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Re: DSL Error Help


[re: Vince730i] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by Vince730i:
...and I just can't seem to make them (EE) understand that I don't think the problem or issue is being resolved, more painted over than anything.


Yes that sums it up perfectly: high noise margins so that your connection is relatively stable - the problem has indeed been "painted over" frown
Standard User XRaySpeX
(eat-sleep-adslguide) Sun 31-Mar-13 17:29:10
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Re: DSL Error Help


[re: eckiedoo] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by eckiedoo:
http://windows.mouselike.org/be/?DoAction=BrasChecker
I find that checker somewhat underestimates line length.

1999: Freeserve 48K Dial-Up => 2005: Wanadoo 1 Meg BB => 2007: Orange 2 Meg BB => 2008: Orange 8 Meg LLU => 2010: Orange 16 Meg LLU => 2011: Orange 20 Meg WBC
Standard User Vince730i
(newbie) Sun 31-Mar-13 17:40:36
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Re: DSL Error Help


[re: XRaySpeX] [link to this post]
 
I may come across a bit stupid here, but is a reboot where you use a pen to press in the reset switch ? I'm currently using my iPhone and am losing the thread a bit - so I'm sorry if you have already explained this. But as you say, the router has not been powered off or rebooted in the last 12 days, but it will be this evening. When I do reboot it, can I expect to see better stats?
Standard User 4M2
(fountain of knowledge) Sun 31-Mar-13 17:51:35
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Re: DSL Error Help


[re: Vince730i] [link to this post]
 
Can you just unplug the router from the mains, remove the filtered faceplate, connected the router to the test socket using a new micro filter, plug the router back into the mains and once a connection is established post the new router stats?

Edited by 4M2 (Sun 31-Mar-13 17:55:51)

Standard User XRaySpeX
(eat-sleep-adslguide) Sun 31-Mar-13 18:19:08
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Re: DSL Error Help


[re: Vince730i] [link to this post]
 
No, no, not the pen/pin. That's a Factory Reset.

Sorry, I just mean power it off then on.

We should obtain more analysable error stats from the reboot and possibly better performance from the test socket.

1999: Freeserve 48K Dial-Up => 2005: Wanadoo 1 Meg BB => 2007: Orange 2 Meg BB => 2008: Orange 8 Meg LLU => 2010: Orange 16 Meg LLU => 2011: Orange 20 Meg WBC
Standard User Vince730i
(newbie) Sun 31-Mar-13 19:23:50
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Re: DSL Error Help


[re: XRaySpeX] [link to this post]
 
I will be able to do that later, but thanks for clearing that up smile probably another silly question, but should something like this happen again (I 90% expect it to) is there anything that can be done from EE's end to help resolve the problem? I understand that they control the NM but they seem to get lost and book an Engineer visit as opposed to trying actually do anything to help.
Standard User Vince730i
(newbie) Sun 31-Mar-13 19:29:06
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Re: DSL Error Help


[re: 4M2] [link to this post]
 
That's what I plan on doing once I get home. It will probably be silly o'clock, but I'm interested to see what differences the router stats show once I've done this. I just want to thank yourself and X ray spec X for all your help. It's appreciated very much smile
Standard User eckiedoo
(member) Sun 31-Mar-13 21:00:48
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Re: DSL Error Help


[re: Vince730i] [link to this post]
 
Evening

Interesting comparison.

My line is almost the same (BE) length as yours, 1286 Metres; which is very close to the likely geographic routing.

Bright Box - ORANGE branding, EE update etc.

The current Downstream BRAS rate is: 16.02 Mbps
The current Upstream BRAS rate is: 0.83 Mbps

ADSL Status
This page shows information about your ADSL connection if applicable.

Status
Configured Current
Line Status --- SHOWTIME
Link Type --- Fast Path
Operation Mode Automatic G992.5(ADSL2+)

Data Rate Information
Stream Type Actual Data Rate
Upstream 1191 (Kbps.)
Downstream 18163 (Kbps.)

Defect/Failure Indication
Operation Data Upstream Downstream
Noise Margin 7.2 dB 6.1 dB
Line Attenuation 11.4 dB 24.5 dB

Indicator Name Near End Indicator Far End Indicator
Output Power 12.4 dBm 0.0 dBm
Fast Path FEC Correction 0 0
Interleaved Path FEC Correction NA NA
Fast Path CRC Error 3987 1156
Interleaved Path CRC Error NA NA
Loss of Signal Defect 1 0
Fast Path HEC Error STR 32020 821
Interleaved Path HEC Error NA NA
Error Seconds 13999 2500

Statistics
Received Cells 20339837
Transmitted Cells 15722493

===================

The Downstream Line Attenuation hovers around 24 db, which ties in with the 23 db of a late PO Telephone/early BT individually requested (and paid-for) measurement.

This was in connection with early dial-up access, at 300 Baud.

===================

This table is from a spreadsheet I have kept, since the Bright Box replaced the Love Box in June 2012-

Earliest Latest Readings Elapsed Days
22-Jun-12 - to - 27-Mar-13 62 278
11:00:00 AM 9:20:00 AM
"Extracted from :-
Advanced Setup
System
adsl status"
"Automatic
G992.5 (ADSL2+)"
SHOWTIME
Fast Path

Best Average Worst Median
5.4 6.3 9.3 6.1 Down Noise margin (dB) :
24.0 24.2 25.0 24.0 Down Attenuation (dB) :
6.0 7.2 10.8 7.2 Up Noise margin (dB) :
11.3 11.4 11.7 11.4 Up Attenuation (dB) :

1,286 Line Length Metres



Best Average Worst Median
Downstream Actual Data Rate
18,247 17,946 15,968 18,055 Rate (kbps)
16,100 16,100 16,100 16,100 BT IP Profile
Upstream
1,195 1,168 888 1,183 Rate (kbps)
19,426 17,948 1,183 19,226 Down + Up

Uptime from last Break
Max/Good Average Min/Bad
23 15:43:23 07 05:38:28 00 00:02:20
dd hh:mm:ss dd hh:mm:ss dd hh:mm:ss
Last Reboot
24/03/2013

The Min/Bad Uptime readings particularly have to be treated with great caution as they are highly dependent on how soon after a reboot they are taken.

The Max/Good Uptime readings are susceptible to similar discrepancies; but are more likely to be realistic of not absolutely accurate.
Standard User 4M2
(fountain of knowledge) Sun 31-Mar-13 21:16:24
Print Post

Re: DSL Error Help


[re: eckiedoo] [link to this post]
 
Not sure what you are getting at: OP's downstream attenuation is 33dB and yours is 24.5dB. Are you suggesting that he has excessive loop loss possibly due to aluminium rather than copper in the line to the exchange, or something else, based on your stated distances to the exchanges?
Standard User eckiedoo
(member) Sun 31-Mar-13 21:34:15
Print Post

Re: DSL Error Help


[re: 4M2] [link to this post]
 
I supplied the data as a basis for comparison, given the almost identical distances.

You may be correct regarding aluminium wires and the Local Loop distance; but as no information has been given on that aspect, it is difficult for anyone to comment; but it has produced this possibility from you and may lead to an explanation at least, if not an eventual solution.

I was hoping that others with more up-to-date knowledge and more local knowledge of EXETER may be able to enlarge on such aspects.
Standard User 4M2
(fountain of knowledge) Sun 31-Mar-13 21:38:17
Print Post

Re: DSL Error Help


[re: eckiedoo] [link to this post]
 
Let's wait until the OP gets some results from the test socket and then we can perhaps comment further smile
Standard User XRaySpeX
(eat-sleep-adslguide) Sun 31-Mar-13 21:40:16
Print Post

Re: DSL Error Help


[re: eckiedoo] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by eckiedoo:
Interesting comparison.
Where?

You are conning yourself with the so-called BE line lengths. Yours and the OP's attenuations are vastly different!

You are just misleading the OP!

1999: Freeserve 48K Dial-Up => 2005: Wanadoo 1 Meg BB => 2007: Orange 2 Meg BB => 2008: Orange 8 Meg LLU => 2010: Orange 16 Meg LLU => 2011: Orange 20 Meg WBC
Standard User XRaySpeX
(eat-sleep-adslguide) Sun 31-Mar-13 21:50:01
Print Post

Re: DSL Error Help


[re: eckiedoo] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by eckiedoo:
You may be correct regarding aluminium wires and the Local Loop distance; but as no information has been given on that aspect, it is difficult for anyone to comment
No, you have all the info. you need! The OP's loop loss is 33dB. Whether this is due to length or materials or a combination of both, it is a fact and there is nowt the OP or his ISP can do about it.

1999: Freeserve 48K Dial-Up => 2005: Wanadoo 1 Meg BB => 2007: Orange 2 Meg BB => 2008: Orange 8 Meg LLU => 2010: Orange 16 Meg LLU => 2011: Orange 20 Meg WBC
Standard User billford
(elder) Sun 31-Mar-13 21:57:07
Print Post

Re: DSL Error Help


[re: XRaySpeX] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by XRaySpeX:
No, you have all the info. you need! The OP's loop loss is 33dB. Whether this is due to length or materials or a combination of both, it is a fact and there is nowt the OP or his ISP can do about it.
But if it's due to something else (sub-par connection somewhere?) then there may be...

Knowing the actual cause of something is useful information, even if it means that all you can do is shrug your shoulders and put up with it.

Bill
A level playing field is level in both directions.________________Planes and Boats and ... _____________BQMs: IPv4 IPv6
Standard User BatBoy
(legend) Sun 31-Mar-13 22:09:09
Print Post

Re: DSL Error Help


[re: XRaySpeX] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by XRaySpeX:
In reply to a post by eckiedoo:
Interesting comparison.
Where?

You are conning yourself with the so-called BE line lengths.
In reply to a post by XRaySpeX:
In reply to a post by eckiedoo:
http://windows.mouselike.org/be/?DoAction=BrasChecker
I find that checker somewhat underestimates line length.
It doesn't do any estimating, it simply reports what's recorded on a BT database
BT Recorded Line Length to Exchange



__________________________________________________________________________The back pedalling starts here__________________
Standard User eckiedoo
(member) Mon 01-Apr-13 09:32:52
Print Post

Re: DSL Error Help


[re: XRaySpeX] [link to this post]
 
Agreed fully that there is nothing that the OP or ISP can do about it, if it is aluminium.

I posted that data simply for comparison; and given his 33db attenuation, the basic rate is unlikely to increase by much.

My only experience of aluminium wiring is with a 1990's Alarm System, for the domestic internal wiring.

I have tried searching for the use of aluminium wire on the phone market; but so far I have not found anything relevant.

Do you know if and when aluminium wiring/cables was used for the Exchange to Cabinet and onward to Domestic premises, was prevalent?

I suspect that it may have been in the 1960s and 1970s, as back in the 1950s, the underground cables were copper, soldered joints and encased in sleeves with "wiped" soldering, traditionally using beaver skin. Quite an art on itself!

Thanks for any information you can provide on those aspects,, learning more every day.
Standard User eckiedoo
(member) Mon 01-Apr-13 09:35:07
Print Post

Re: DSL Error Help


[re: 4M2] [link to this post]
 
Agreed.
Standard User BatBoy
(legend) Mon 01-Apr-13 09:58:29
Print Post

Re: DSL Error Help


[re: eckiedoo] [link to this post]
 
in Milton Keynes yesterday. The city's telephone network, built in the seventies when the price of copper was sky-high, has an awful lot of aluminium in it, which makes it pretty useless in terms of delivering broadband.



__________________________________________________________________________The back pedalling starts here__________________
Standard User eckiedoo
(member) Mon 01-Apr-13 10:12:48
Print Post

Re: DSL Error Help


[re: BatBoy] [link to this post]
 
Thanks Batboy.

That helps explain the very low speeds that a colleague encounters in MK, compared to myself up in the Kingdom.
Standard User Vince730i
(newbie) Mon 01-Apr-13 10:51:37
Print Post

Re: DSL Error Help


[re: XRaySpeX] [link to this post]
 
Morning all.

Router now connected to the test socket and no landline plugged in and here are the stats from 2 minutes after turning the router back on.


ADSL STATUS

This page shows information about your ADSL connection if applicable.

Status
Configured Current
Line Status --- SHOWTIME
Link Type --- Fast Path
Operation Mode Automatic G992.5(ADSL2+)
Data Rate Information
Stream Type Actual Data Rate
Upstream 1208 (Kbps.)
Downstream 9727 (Kbps.)
Defect/Failure Indication
Operation Data Upstream Downstream
Noise Margin 6.5 dB 14.5 dB
Line Attenuation 17.6 dB 32.5 dB
Indicator Name Near End Indicator Far End Indicator
Output Power 12.2 dBm 0.0 dBm
Fast Path FEC Correction 0 0
Interleaved Path FEC Correction NA NA
Fast Path CRC Error 228 0
Interleaved Path CRC Error NA NA
Loss of Signal Defect 0 0
Fast Path HEC Error STR 81 0
Interleaved Path HEC Error NA NA
Error Seconds 7 0
Statistics
Received Cells 1879
Transmitted Cells 472
Standard User 4M2
(fountain of knowledge) Mon 01-Apr-13 11:14:32
Print Post

Re: DSL Error Help


[re: Vince730i] [link to this post]
 
Looking good - if the downstream noise margin can be reduced to 6dB (or even 3dB) then your downstream sync should improve considerably. Upstream noise margin and sync speed are now looking spot on!

Please leave the router connected to the test socket until the engineer comes tomorrow (?) and I'm sure it will be OK to plug the phone into the dangle micro filter also. The router may re-sync before tomorrow and the downstream noise margin may reduce to 12db initially with a corresponding increase in sync speed - keep an eye on it smile
Standard User Vince730i
(newbie) Mon 01-Apr-13 11:36:08
Print Post

Re: DSL Error Help


[re: 4M2] [link to this post]
 
Thanks for your reply smile

I just have two questions now.
1, EE can sort out the NM if I speak to the Fault Management Team?
2, What was the likely cause of the high NM's and massive loss if signal?

Sorry to keep asking questions, but I'm sure EE could do a little bit more for the customer than arrange a OR Engineer visit in 6 days after reporting the problem.

Thanks again for all your help. It's greatly appreciated and very interesting smile
Standard User 4M2
(fountain of knowledge) Mon 01-Apr-13 11:57:41
Print Post

Re: DSL Error Help


[re: Vince730i] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by Vince730i:
I just have two questions now.
1, EE can sort out the NM if I speak to the Fault Management Team?
2, What was the likely cause of the high NM's and massive loss if signal?


Question 1 : hopefully an EE user can answer that based on their experience of dealing with that ISP

Question 2: it's possible that interference from telephony equipment/wiring in your home has been leaking past the filter and affecting the upstream ADSL frequencies, in particular, causing a general poor performance. Any noise (interference) on the line will result in a noise margin being set when the ADSL connection is established (sync time) depending on it's severity. This margin can then vary during a period of connection and acts as a buffer against an ADSL drop.

Edited by 4M2 (Mon 01-Apr-13 12:02:11)

Standard User Vince730i
(newbie) Mon 01-Apr-13 12:06:17
Print Post

Re: DSL Error Help


[re: 4M2] [link to this post]
 
Thanks again for your help and knowledge. It's been a massive help to me.

I will have to look through the thread as I can't remember who said to contact EE Fault Management Team about the NM.

And I'm guessing that when I spoke to EE during my high NM and loss of signal the other day, its likely that they could of given me a procedure to follow to try and get my broadband back on track? As opposed to saying "we will send an engineer out for you."
Standard User 4M2
(fountain of knowledge) Mon 01-Apr-13 12:14:31
Print Post

Re: DSL Error Help


[re: Vince730i] [link to this post]
 
They possibly thought it could be a home wiring issue and hence the filtered faceplate being fitted as a precaution - however I'm surprised that they never advised you to use the test socket in order to check the status of the connection, even BT ask folks to do that even if they just have a voice fault.
Standard User Vince730i
(newbie) Mon 01-Apr-13 12:50:42
Print Post

Re: DSL Error Help


[re: 4M2] [link to this post]
 
I see what you mean. I'm going to call the Fault Team later on, and will let you know what the say regarding the NM. At a guess, I am aware that EE assume that every new customer are a fair distance away from the exchange and for that reason they do put restrictions on. I think they may be to do with the difference between Fast Path and Interleaved? As when I first joined EE I was on interleaved and my Download speeds were considerably lower. Since the OR Engineer visit, I have been on Fast Path with considerably higher speeds. As I said, I am only guessing as I am very new to all this DSL stuff, but do customers suffer similar issues on Fibre - or is that a whole new ball game? smile
Standard User 4M2
(fountain of knowledge) Mon 01-Apr-13 13:17:54
Print Post

Re: DSL Error Help


[re: Vince730i] [link to this post]
 
I think I would be inclined not to contact the ISP just yet about the NM and interleaving but to leave the setup as it is for a while and monitor it. Others including the engineer may, of course, have a different view regarding how to proceed. Personally I prefer an interleaved connection since I prioritize stability over speed and latency.

Sorry don't know anything about fibre - an ADSL2+ 13000Kbps sync speed on a 37dB attenuation is ample for my needs smile

Edited by 4M2 (Mon 01-Apr-13 13:24:08)

Standard User XRaySpeX
(eat-sleep-adslguide) Mon 01-Apr-13 13:34:26
Print Post

Re: DSL Error Help


[re: Vince730i] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by Vince730i:
1, EE can sort out the NM if I speak to the Fault Management Team?
(It was me). Leave it running a week or 2 from the test socket. It may sort itself out.

Those stats are good so far; the upstream has vastly improved.

Please take the stats and post just before the eng comes.

The DLM sets Interleaving or Fast Path automatically based on the stability it perceives; EE can't force it. Fast Path will give a faster Up sync on stable lines.

1999: Freeserve 48K Dial-Up => 2005: Wanadoo 1 Meg BB => 2007: Orange 2 Meg BB => 2008: Orange 8 Meg LLU => 2010: Orange 16 Meg LLU => 2011: Orange 20 Meg WBC
Standard User Vince730i
(newbie) Mon 01-Apr-13 14:11:02
Print Post

Re: DSL Error Help


[re: 4M2] [link to this post]
 
Cool. Thanks for the advice. I will leave off the call to EE, but will update what the engineer says. I'm guessing that this will reset my line and the 10 day stabilisation will kick in? I tend to suffer a fair amount of loss of signal during this time and not sure if its normal as I have not got an idea how DLM works.
Standard User Vince730i
(newbie) Mon 01-Apr-13 14:15:40
Print Post

Re: DSL Error Help


[re: XRaySpeX] [link to this post]
 
I really can't thank you enough for your help and knowledge and speedy replies.

I will happily get the router stats before the Engineer visit and post them as soon as. At a guess, it will be no good posting any stats after the visit due to DLM ?
Standard User 4M2
(fountain of knowledge) Mon 01-Apr-13 14:24:33
Print Post

Re: DSL Error Help


[re: Vince730i] [link to this post]
 
Did you manage to to do a quiet line test with a corded phone now that you are connected to the micro filter/test socket? Or is the line quiet even when using a cordless phone?
Standard User Vince730i
(newbie) Mon 01-Apr-13 14:44:35
Print Post

Re: DSL Error Help


[re: 4M2] [link to this post]
 
Tried the quiet line test with the cordless phone and no noise at all. Everything seems to be good right now. In fact, I might take a look at the stats again to see if there are differences since this morning.

Just checked and noticed my NM are changing. Near End is currently at 7.2 dB Far End 16.4 dB at time of reboot it was Near End 6.5 Far End 14.5. Is this normal fluctuation - or does it mean there is an underlying issue ?

Edited by Vince730i (Mon 01-Apr-13 15:00:37)

Standard User 4M2
(fountain of knowledge) Mon 01-Apr-13 14:57:27
Print Post

Re: DSL Error Help


[re: Vince730i] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by Vince730i:
Tried the quiet line test with the cordless phone and no noise at all. Everything seems to be good right now. In fact, I might take a look at the stats again to see if there are differences since this morning.


It looking as if you had a faulty filtered faceplate - yes it will be interesting to see how your stats look now.

I'm not sure about the "training/stabilization period" thing but that would probably only happen again if your connection was formally reset by the ISP. I believe at the moment your line is being constantly monitored by the exchange kit and a resync may happen automatically in order for you to achieve "the fastest possible speed" smile
Standard User 4M2
(fountain of knowledge) Mon 01-Apr-13 15:18:34
Print Post

Re: DSL Error Help


[re: Vince730i] [link to this post]
 
Sorry missed your edit...

Increase in NM is a good thing since the reboot - it means the line is less noisy and you have more margin to play with - if the margin had reduced then there would have been noise events that caused it and hence less margin to play with. For example: if a sync time margin is 6dB and there is a significant noise event that uses up that margin then the margin may reduce to zero and the DSL may drop due to a high error rate. Some routers can hold a connection with a zero margin (e.g. 2Wire routers which are very useful on long lines where there is considerable loop loss and susceptibility to noise.)
Standard User Vince730i
(newbie) Mon 01-Apr-13 15:37:04
Print Post

Re: DSL Error Help


[re: 4M2] [link to this post]
 
Thanks again for the reply smile

I was thinking that higher NM's were a bad thing. Sorry for comming across a bit dim with all this, but I really did try and make sense of it myself, but I managed to get lost quirte early on. Saying that, you guys on here are amazing and very helpful and tolerant of people like me - so thank you for that alone smile
Standard User 4M2
(fountain of knowledge) Mon 01-Apr-13 16:08:40
Print Post

Re: DSL Error Help


[re: Vince730i] [link to this post]
 
Best of luck with the engineer visit - make sure you have a good selection of biscuits handy to go with his tea smile

As XRaySpeX advised, please record your router stats tomorrow before he comes.
Standard User XRaySpeX
(eat-sleep-adslguide) Mon 01-Apr-13 16:54:24
Print Post

Re: DSL Error Help


[re: Vince730i] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by Vince730i:
I was thinking that higher NM's were a bad thing.
Depends on context.

A too high NM at sync-time means it found too much noise variation at that time to be able to sync with a lower NM (or that the ISP or DLM is holding it high for the time being).

An increase of NM since sync-time means that noise has reduced since then and that is a good chance that if you were to re-sync now you'd get a faster sync with the same earlier sync-time margin.

1999: Freeserve 48K Dial-Up => 2005: Wanadoo 1 Meg BB => 2007: Orange 2 Meg BB => 2008: Orange 8 Meg LLU => 2010: Orange 16 Meg LLU => 2011: Orange 20 Meg WBC
Standard User XRaySpeX
(eat-sleep-adslguide) Mon 01-Apr-13 16:59:59
Print Post

Re: DSL Error Help


[re: Vince730i] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by Vince730i:
noticed my NM are changing. Near End is currently at 7.2 dB Far End 16.4 dB
Small point of terminology: NMs are measured Up/Downstream, not Near/Far Ends, and anyway you mixed them up.

1999: Freeserve 48K Dial-Up => 2005: Wanadoo 1 Meg BB => 2007: Orange 2 Meg BB => 2008: Orange 8 Meg LLU => 2010: Orange 16 Meg LLU => 2011: Orange 20 Meg WBC
Standard User Vince730i
(newbie) Mon 01-Apr-13 17:24:58
Print Post

Re: DSL Error Help


[re: XRaySpeX] [link to this post]
 
Soory frown I'm trying to take so much info in, I'm struggling to get to grips with it.
. I'm flicking through so many copied and pasted notes and stats, I think I need to clear it up a bit and try again,

Im keeping an eye on the stats and will post before the engineer arrives.
Out of interest. I had a high amount of Signal losses before this new faceplate was fitted, but no signal losses ever with Sky BB withe the only difference being the routers. Same line, same micro filter etc, yet I switch to EE and problems arise instantly. Are Telephone exchanges highly unlikely to fail from time to time - or do the regularly suffer there own faults?
Standard User Vince730i
(newbie) Mon 01-Apr-13 17:32:27
Print Post

Re: DSL Error Help


[re: 4M2] [link to this post]
 
Thank you - andI'm more than willing to share my Mcvities Dark Chocolate biscuits with him smile

Stats will be posted before he arrives. I'm actually quite excited which is a bit odd considering I'm still new to all this stuff and its still sinking in.
Standard User Lethe
(fountain of knowledge) Mon 01-Apr-13 17:36:58
Print Post

Re: DSL Error Help


[re: Vince730i] [link to this post]
 
From experience the *engineer* will ignore what you show anyway, and just do the tests. These will 'pass', of course.

So don't try to hard.

Nick
Standard User 4M2
(fountain of knowledge) Mon 01-Apr-13 17:38:12
Print Post

Re: DSL Error Help


[re: Vince730i] [link to this post]
 
You may not have been on ADSL2+ with Sky?
Standard User XRaySpeX
(eat-sleep-adslguide) Mon 01-Apr-13 17:44:07
Print Post

Re: DSL Error Help


[re: Vince730i] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by Vince730i:
I had a high amount of Signal losses before this new faceplate was fitted, but no signal losses ever with Sky BB
I thought you said you had this filtered faceplate fitted 13 days ago by the OR eng, and you only the Loss of Signal on last Fri/Sat?

1999: Freeserve 48K Dial-Up => 2005: Wanadoo 1 Meg BB => 2007: Orange 2 Meg BB => 2008: Orange 8 Meg LLU => 2010: Orange 16 Meg LLU => 2011: Orange 20 Meg WBC
Standard User 4M2
(fountain of knowledge) Mon 01-Apr-13 17:49:13
Print Post

Re: DSL Error Help


[re: Lethe] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by Lethe:
From experience the *engineer* will ignore what you show anyway, and just do the tests. These will 'pass', of course.

So don't try to hard.

Nick


That's rather cynical and pessimistic isn't it?

From my experience of an OR engineer, admittedly an SFI, he was both interested in my setup, results and experiences with the BB connection, extremely helpful, explained what he was doing, showed me his findings from the test socket and called me from the exchange after he had checked the line from the test socket via the cabinet to the exchange. Lastly he reported that he had found the fault at the exchange and had fixed it and was going to send the report to my ISP.
Standard User Lethe
(fountain of knowledge) Mon 01-Apr-13 18:21:45
Print Post

Re: DSL Error Help


[re: 4M2] [link to this post]
 
I did say from *my experience*.

I guess it luck of the draw.

The tests will pass though.

Nick
Standard User Vince730i
(learned) Mon 01-Apr-13 18:23:03
Print Post

Re: DSL Error Help


[re: 4M2] [link to this post]
 
I've had BB with EE since 22nd off Feb this year. I had around 86 signal losses since day one up untill the 18th of March. During these dates I had D/L speeds as low as 0.02 and U/L of 0.74 and highest speeds of 3.2 D/L and 0.97 U/L. I had contacted EE due to my router re-syncing and they told me it was all due to DLM running and would sort itself out. I got so fed up with it starting to re-sync on a Thursday/Friday that I called them and said that something must be wrong, and they sent an Engineer out. I had an unfiltered face plate which he changed for the new type and all was good for a while. I disregarded the previous signal losses as I didn't think it would happen again once DLM (10 day stabilisation) had finished, but Thursday/Friday last week was beyond a joke and registered the 250 signal losses which made me think a problem exsists somewhere. Sorry for any confusion frown
Standard User Vince730i
(learned) Mon 01-Apr-13 18:26:56
Print Post

Re: DSL Error Help


[re: 4M2] [link to this post]
 
That's a good point, but I honestly don't know if I was as I rarely had to log into my router to check for any issues. Is ADSL2+ a little more sensitive?
Standard User Vince730i
(learned) Mon 01-Apr-13 18:32:16
Print Post

Re: DSL Error Help


[re: Lethe] [link to this post]
 
I've got nothing to show him really - and the last engineer that called out was a great guy. I'm hoping he returns again, but a second opinion is always a good thing.
Standard User XRaySpeX
(eat-sleep-adslguide) Mon 01-Apr-13 18:42:15
Print Post

Re: DSL Error Help


[re: Lethe] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by Lethe:
From experience the *engineer* will ignore what you show anyway,
We have asked OP to get stats to show us so we can assist him, not for showing eng.

1999: Freeserve 48K Dial-Up => 2005: Wanadoo 1 Meg BB => 2007: Orange 2 Meg BB => 2008: Orange 8 Meg LLU => 2010: Orange 16 Meg LLU => 2011: Orange 20 Meg WBC
Standard User 4M2
(fountain of knowledge) Mon 01-Apr-13 18:45:58
Print Post

Re: DSL Error Help


[re: Lethe] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by Lethe:
I did say from *my experience*.


seem to remember that you might have had those Qube people rather than a pukka OR engineer, or am I confusing your previous problems with some one else‘s?
Standard User Lethe
(fountain of knowledge) Mon 01-Apr-13 18:46:13
Print Post

Re: DSL Error Help


[re: Vince730i] [link to this post]
 
Yes, but that is the point.

They only have a certain test[s] to do with their equipment - that is their job. When the test[s] pass, no faults found, you are stuck with the same [censored] connection as it meets the BT standard. The engineer isn't interested (nor bothered, I suppose) to see why... he just does the tests to make sure the line is kosher or YOUR end is bad (then bills).

Trust me, I have been here, tee-shirts etc.

Nick
Standard User 4M2
(fountain of knowledge) Mon 01-Apr-13 19:02:04
Print Post

Re: DSL Error Help


[re: Vince730i] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by Vince730i:
I got so fed up with it (router) starting to re-sync on a Thursday/Friday that I called them and said that something must be wrong, and they sent an Engineer out. I had an unfiltered face plate which he changed for the new type and all was good for a while.


The engineer should be able to check that out but it does perhaps seem that you have a home wiring problem that was remedied by the fitting of a filtered faceplate which may have now failed - all this is speculation of course.

BTW do you have a Sky box normally connected to your phone line?

Yes ADSL2+ will be more sensitive than ADSL MAX - what were your previous throughput speeds when you were with Sky ( I realise that you probably don't have any router stats from that time) but it might give us some indication of the line's previous performance - although Sky ADSL MAX is normally really dismal when it comes to throughput (download) speeds.
Standard User Vince730i
(learned) Mon 01-Apr-13 19:30:45
Print Post

Re: DSL Error Help


[re: XRaySpeX] [link to this post]
 
And although I've been a little bit slow on the advice from the guys on this forum, their assistance has been fantastic And appreciated very much. My chat with the engineer tomorrow will consist of the signal losses and the noise I experienced on the line during the quiet line test in the hope it gives him enough to go on to fix the problem.
Standard User Vince730i
(learned) Mon 01-Apr-13 19:53:38
Print Post

Re: DSL Error Help


[re: 4M2] [link to this post]
 
It does sounds like there was a problem to start with, but I was unfortunate enough to suffer a second one

I have never had my Sky box connected to the phone line as I couldn't really see how it benefitted me to be honest.

When I had Sky BB, I must confess that it wasn't that bad. D/L speeds were around 5.5 and U/L was around around 0.7. The reason I left sky was down to their BB virtually grinding to a halt, and at the time of that happening, it coincided with an article I read about Sky 'over subscribing' and choking their own network. Plus (this might open a whole new can of worms) I was told that Sky have a ratio of 200-1 whereas Orange/EE have a Ratio of 50-1. Plase don't shout at me too loudly for the ratio's, it's what EE quoted to me when trying to recruit me smile

Although my current speeds are higher than with Sky, my son informs me that with Sky.... He could download stuff at 1MB per second but with higher speeds from EE it tends to be about 600Kb per second. I have no idea what area I'm getting into here but it might make more sense to you guys than it does to me? I'm purely guessing that the website he is downloading from may be responsible for this ?

Ithe website he downloads from is steampowered.com I am very strict regarding torrent sites - so they are not allowed.

Edited by Vince730i (Mon 01-Apr-13 20:00:24)

Standard User 4M2
(fountain of knowledge) Mon 01-Apr-13 20:15:57
Print Post

Re: DSL Error Help


[re: Vince730i] [link to this post]
 
5.5 Mbps and 0.7Mbps throughput speeds do seem about right for an ADSL MAX type connection on your attenuation.

Please check again with your son's figures: a 1MB/s file transfer = 8Mbps (8 x 1024 = 8192Kbps) and 600Kbps = 600Kbps! If he is seeing 600KB/s then that would be 4800Kbps (600 x 8 = 4800Kbps.)

Edited by 4M2 (Mon 01-Apr-13 20:25:39)

Standard User yarwell
(sensei) Mon 01-Apr-13 20:20:47
Print Post

Re: DSL Error Help


[re: eckiedoo] [link to this post]
 
Rhodesia / Zimbabwe was a large source of copper, and sanctions sent the price sky high.
"In addition, about £10 million of the additional cost of copper imports in 1967 might be attributed to the Rhodesian situation, among the many factors affecting copper prices."

--

Phil

MaxDSL - goes as fast as it can and doesn't read the line checker first.

MaxDSL diagnostics
Standard User Vince730i
(learned) Mon 01-Apr-13 20:46:45
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Re: DSL Error Help


[re: 4M2] [link to this post]
 
Certainly files (games in my Son's case) did seem to download a lot quicker with Sky than EE. And I use my Xbox 360 for online gaming, and even with a better download speed than Sky, I do lag while playing the games, and 'lag out' quite regularly. I recently downloaded a 1.86GB file on my Xbox, and that took 34 minutes with Sky. I re-downloaded it again with EE and it took 1hour 15 minutes - and that was with a D/L speed of 7.67 and a ping of around 130.
Looking into it now, it does seem a bit strange.
Standard User 4M2
(fountain of knowledge) Mon 01-Apr-13 21:45:46
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Re: DSL Error Help


[re: Vince730i] [link to this post]
 
There are so many factors than affect throughput speed, but I was just questioning your son's 1 MB/s reported speed.

Your 34 minutes for the 1.86GB download would have averaged out at about 7375Kbps which is good for an ADSL MAX type connection - in fact possibly too good if you had an IP Profile...
Standard User Vince730i
(learned) Mon 01-Apr-13 22:01:58
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Re: DSL Error Help


[re: 4M2] [link to this post]
 
To be honest, I've not got much if an idea about throughput speeds and could only recall the times taken to download the Xbox file. I will ask my Son if he can clarify the info and let you know what we come up with smile strangely, I have a thing about wanting to be an electrician, but I think with my knowledge I will stay clear of it. I know there is a difference between an electrician and a technician, but if I can't get my head round this, it's the safest way. If my Son reads this forum, he will wonder how I managed to build him a Gaming PC. I'm wondering myself now smile
Standard User 4M2
(fountain of knowledge) Mon 01-Apr-13 22:24:34
Print Post

Re: DSL Error Help


[re: Vince730i] [link to this post]
 
Ah electrickery! I like to think of it in terms of plumbing: water pressure, volumes, etc.

Too much demanded water (internet traffic) along a small pipe equals a bottle neck and hence a reduction in gallons (MB) per minute at each branch-off point (router) smile

Edited by 4M2 (Mon 01-Apr-13 22:26:33)

Standard User Vince730i
(learned) Mon 01-Apr-13 22:51:31
Print Post

Re: DSL Error Help


[re: 4M2] [link to this post]
 
That's awesome. You could of saved 9 pages of trying to make me understand BB with that one post smile
I want to be a plumber now. I think it's the answer to most problems smile
Standard User 4M2
(fountain of knowledge) Mon 01-Apr-13 22:53:18
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Re: DSL Error Help


[re: Vince730i] [link to this post]
 
But water and electricity don't mix smile
Standard User Vince730i
(learned) Mon 01-Apr-13 22:55:35
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Re: DSL Error Help


[re: 4M2] [link to this post]
 
Problem solving has clearly never been my strong point smile
Standard User 4M2
(fountain of knowledge) Mon 01-Apr-13 23:15:34
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Re: DSL Error Help


[re: Vince730i] [link to this post]
 
Same here: sometimes by trying to solve one problem I create a multitude more laugh
Standard User RobertoS
(sensei) Tue 02-Apr-13 09:34:17
Print Post

Re: DSL Error Help


[re: Vince730i] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by Vince730i:
That's awesome. You could of saved 9 pages of trying to make me understand BB with that one post smile
I want to be a plumber now. I think it's the answer to most problems smile
An explanation of Noise Margin, which you need top read before the second link,
and
an explanation of High Noise Margin.

What Sky product were you on? It begins to sound like Sky Connect.

The reason I ask is that if it had been Sky LLU that could have explained this issue if it started at Minute 1 of the migration. If it was Sky Connect the migration should not have caused any issues at all.

Good luck with the engineer.

My broadband basic info/help site - www.robertos.me.uk | Domains,website and mail hosting - Tsohost.
Connection - Plusnet UnLim Fibre (FTTC). Sync ~ 54.2/15.2Mbps @ 600m. - BQM

"Where talent is a dwarf, self-esteem is a giant." - Jean-Antoine Petit-Senn.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Allergy information: This post was manufactured in an environment where nuts are present. It may include traces of understatement, litotes and humour.
Standard User RobertoS
(sensei) Tue 02-Apr-13 09:36:03
Print Post

Re: DSL Error Help


[re: XRaySpeX] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by XRaySpeX:
We have asked OP to get stats to show us so we can assist him, not for showing eng.
It's strange that no-one has mentioned the extremely odd fact that he is still on Fast Path.

I wonder if the BrightBox is duff? Or maybe just needs a Factory Reset?

My broadband basic info/help site - www.robertos.me.uk | Domains,website and mail hosting - Tsohost.
Connection - Plusnet UnLim Fibre (FTTC). Sync ~ 54.2/15.2Mbps @ 600m. - BQM

"Where talent is a dwarf, self-esteem is a giant." - Jean-Antoine Petit-Senn.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Allergy information: This post was manufactured in an environment where nuts are present. It may include traces of understatement, litotes and humour.
Standard User Vince730i
(learned) Tue 02-Apr-13 10:55:42
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Re: DSL Error Help


[re: RobertoS] [link to this post]
 
Thanks for your post - and your website looks like a good starting point for me.

Regarding Sky, they had two different types of Broadband. One being the Connect that you mentioned and another cheaper one I think. I'm not to sure which way round they were, but when I took out BB with Sky, they told me that I was in a "Sky Service Area" and would therefore be as to take advantage of the cheaper package (I guess this is using their own equipment at the exchange)?

It was so long ago that I signed up with Sky, that I really can't remember if it was called Connect or not.
To be fair, if Sky hadn't 'over subscribed' their BB network and chocked it, I probably would of still been with them.

Sorry if none of the above makes sense, but I will see if I can find out which package I was on smile
Still waiting for the Engineer he's supposed to be here before 1pm and I've not had a phone call to say he's on his way yet, but will update once he's been.
Standard User Vince730i
(learned) Tue 02-Apr-13 11:17:10
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Re: DSL Error Help


[re: RobertoS] [link to this post]
 
Good point. When I last spoke to EE Faults Management Team, they led me to believe that it would swittch to 'Interleaved' if there was too many errors and with a high amount of signal losses in a very short space of time, I would of expected it to.

I have questioned the Brightbox router and even looked into the possibility of using the old Sky Netgear and Siemens ones I have as they were extremely reliable.

EE seem to think that crediting money to my account is a short term solution to this problem, but I'm more interested in having a reliable and stable BB connection.

I have Factory reset the router a few times on the advice of EE, but that's always been done during the 10 day stabilisation and wondered if that can cause its own issues ?
Standard User 4M2
(fountain of knowledge) Tue 02-Apr-13 11:20:04
Print Post

Re: DSL Error Help


[re: Vince730i] [link to this post]
 
Yes your exchange is Sky LLU'd http://www.samknows.com/broadband/exchange/WWEXTR so the likelihood is that you were on ADSL2+ with them.

So your son's 1 MB/s download speed would definitely have been possible.

Good luck with the engineer visit - I'm sure the offer of Mcvities Dark Chocolates will be appreciated smile

Edited by 4M2 (Tue 02-Apr-13 11:22:25)

Standard User Vince730i
(learned) Tue 02-Apr-13 11:29:27
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Re: DSL Error Help


[re: 4M2] [link to this post]
 
Thanks for your post smile Engineer is on his way now and I'm hoping he doesn't like the biscuits too much smile
Standard User 4M2
(fountain of knowledge) Tue 02-Apr-13 11:37:06
Print Post

Re: DSL Error Help


[re: Vince730i] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by Vince730i:
I have Factory reset the router a few times on the advice of EE, but that's always been done during the 10 day stabilisation and wondered if that can cause its own issues ?


Don't think I would have followed that advice unless I had made a mess of the setup frown

Anyway what's done is done - good luck...
Standard User Vince730i
(learned) Tue 02-Apr-13 15:12:41
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Re: DSL Error Help


[re: 4M2] [link to this post]
 
Afternoon all. Sorry for the long post, but just trying to provide all the info you needsmile
I did copy the stats before the Engineer arrived, but we seem to of stuffed a brief power cut during the night at some point.

This is the Stats before the Engineer arrived:
Status
Configured Current
Line Status --- SHOWTIME
Link Type --- Fast Path
Operation Mode Automatic G992.5(ADSL2+)
Data Rate Information
Stream Type Actual Data Rate
Upstream 1240 (Kbps.)
Downstream 9727 (Kbps.)
Defect/Failure Indication
Operation Data Upstream Downstream
Noise Margin 5.8 dB 16.4 dB
Line Attenuation 17.6 dB 33.0 dB
Indicator Name Near End Indicator Far End Indicator
Output Power 12.3 dBm 0.0 dBm
Fast Path FEC Correction 0 0
Interleaved Path FEC Correction NA NA
Fast Path CRC Error 108 3
Interleaved Path CRC Error NA NA
Loss of Signal Defect 0 0
Fast Path HEC Error STR 336 1
Interleaved Path HEC Error NA NA
Error Seconds 87 3
Statistics
Received Cells 1030012
Transmitted Cells 117745

This is the Stats immediately after the Engineer left:
Status
Configured Current
Line Status --- SHOWTIME
Link Type --- Fast Path
Operation Mode Automatic G992.5(ADSL2+)
Data Rate Information
Stream Type Actual Data Rate
Upstream 1187 (Kbps.)
Downstream 9727 (Kbps.)
Defect/Failure Indication
Operation Data Upstream Downstream
Noise Margin 6.0 dB 16.6 dB
Line Attenuation 17.7 dB 32.5 dB
Indicator Name Near End Indicator Far End Indicator
Output Power 12.5 dBm 0.0 dBm
Fast Path FEC Correction 0 0
Interleaved Path FEC Correction NA NA
Fast Path CRC Error 2 0
Interleaved Path CRC Error NA NA
Loss of Signal Defect 0 0
Fast Path HEC Error STR 1 0
Interleaved Path HEC Error NA NA
Error Seconds 2 0

And this is the current Stats:
Status
Configured Current
Line Status --- SHOWTIME
Link Type --- Fast Path
Operation Mode Automatic G992.5(ADSL2+)
Data Rate Information
Stream Type Actual Data Rate
Upstream 1195 (Kbps.)
Downstream 15697 (Kbps.)
Defect/Failure Indication
Operation Data Upstream Downstream
Noise Margin 6.3 dB 6.0 dB
Line Attenuation 17.6 dB 32.5 dB
Indicator Name Near End Indicator Far End Indicator
Output Power 12.3 dBm 0.0 dBm
Fast Path FEC Correction 0 0
Interleaved Path FEC Correction NA NA
Fast Path CRC Error 172 0
Interleaved Path CRC Error NA NA
Loss of Signal Defect 3 0
Fast Path HEC Error STR 595 0
Interleaved Path HEC Error NA NA
Error Seconds 798 17

He ran all the tests and the only thing he could find "that shouldn't be an issue" is the SNR was at 15dB, but other than that, he said it all looks good smile

Edited by Vince730i (Tue 02-Apr-13 15:15:09)

Standard User XRaySpeX
(eat-sleep-adslguide) Tue 02-Apr-13 15:25:41
Print Post

Re: DSL Error Help


[re: Vince730i] [link to this post]
 
Well, you are now getting good speed with a 6dB Target NM smile

It must have re-synced since eng left.

Only possibly worrying thing is high ESs & 3 Loss of Signal in in a short period. What was "Time Connected" for the "current" stats? Did eng or you reboot the router at the time?

1999: Freeserve 48K Dial-Up => 2005: Wanadoo 1 Meg BB => 2007: Orange 2 Meg BB => 2008: Orange 8 Meg LLU => 2010: Orange 16 Meg LLU => 2011: Orange 20 Meg WBC

Edited by XRaySpeX (Tue 02-Apr-13 15:27:42)

Standard User Vince730i
(learned) Tue 02-Apr-13 15:46:37
Print Post

Re: DSL Error Help


[re: XRaySpeX] [link to this post]
 
Thanks for you post XraySpecX smile

The router was rebooted while the Engineer was here at the time of the first Loss of Signal.
He left around 13.15 and the router is showing that I've been connected for1hour and 26minutes.

Any ideas as to why the ES's are high and LoS could still be an issue? I'm tempted to just switch back to Sky if things get as bad as before.
Standard User XRaySpeX
(eat-sleep-adslguide) Tue 02-Apr-13 15:59:48
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Re: DSL Error Help


[re: Vince730i] [link to this post]
 
1.5 hours is too soon to say.

As suggested earlier, just let it run from test socket (is it still there?) for some time and monitor "Time Connected" against error stats.

Did eng do anything about faceplate?

1999: Freeserve 48K Dial-Up => 2005: Wanadoo 1 Meg BB => 2007: Orange 2 Meg BB => 2008: Orange 8 Meg LLU => 2010: Orange 16 Meg LLU => 2011: Orange 20 Meg WBC
Standard User 4M2
(fountain of knowledge) Tue 02-Apr-13 16:11:13
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Re: DSL Error Help


[re: Vince730i] [link to this post]
 
The final set of stats look great - think I would invest in another router before too long.

Perhaps you might like to see how the throughput speeds are also before deciding to change ISP?
Standard User Vince730i
(learned) Tue 02-Apr-13 16:14:14
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Re: DSL Error Help


[re: XRaySpeX] [link to this post]
 
It's still the same faceplate, and he's put it all back together with the RJ11 plugged into the top and the RJ12 plugged in the bottom. I asked about the stability of the inbuilt filter on the faceplate, and he said if its the Infinity faceplate, he doesn't know as they are too new to know if there are any faults with them.

The only other thing that is possibly(?) the cause cause of the Signal Loss is the "drop off's" associated with the 10 day stabilisation. He advised that it might do this, but shouldn't be too much of a problem.
Standard User XRaySpeX
(eat-sleep-adslguide) Tue 02-Apr-13 16:22:59
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Re: DSL Error Help


[re: Vince730i] [link to this post]
 
Personally, I'd have no hesitation in removing the faceplate, using the test socket, rebooting the router and monitoring it from there, to take a faulty faceplate out the equation. A single, or even a few, re-syncs should not throw the DLM.

1999: Freeserve 48K Dial-Up => 2005: Wanadoo 1 Meg BB => 2007: Orange 2 Meg BB => 2008: Orange 8 Meg LLU => 2010: Orange 16 Meg LLU => 2011: Orange 20 Meg WBC
Standard User XRaySpeX
(eat-sleep-adslguide) Tue 02-Apr-13 16:24:26
Print Post

Re: DSL Error Help


[re: 4M2] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by 4M2:
think I would invest in another router before too long.
Why? What's wrong or suspect about this one?

1999: Freeserve 48K Dial-Up => 2005: Wanadoo 1 Meg BB => 2007: Orange 2 Meg BB => 2008: Orange 8 Meg LLU => 2010: Orange 16 Meg LLU => 2011: Orange 20 Meg WBC
Standard User Vince730i
(learned) Tue 02-Apr-13 16:31:36
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Re: DSL Error Help


[re: XRaySpeX] [link to this post]
 
I think that's ver sound advice to be honest, considering the fact it was a very stable and reliable connection after doing it that way before smile if I unplug the the RJ11 and connect it to the Master Socket, will that 'technically' force a re-sync ?
Standard User Vince730i
(learned) Tue 02-Apr-13 16:38:58
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Re: DSL Error Help


[re: 4M2] [link to this post]
 
I'm just so confused with all these problems with Signal Loss. The throughput speed is looking pretty impressive, but I just worry how much more of these problems I can take smile EE called me after the Engineer visit and wanted to run a line test. Is this normal? I refused to let them as I didn't see the need or the point.
Standard User XRaySpeX
(eat-sleep-adslguide) Tue 02-Apr-13 16:40:10
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Re: DSL Error Help


[re: Vince730i] [link to this post]
 
Yes, but also power off/on to reboot so error stats are zeroised.

If you find LoS & ES are low w/out faceplate, but when you put it back later and LoS or ES start escalating, you'll know the faceplate is faulty.

1999: Freeserve 48K Dial-Up => 2005: Wanadoo 1 Meg BB => 2007: Orange 2 Meg BB => 2008: Orange 8 Meg LLU => 2010: Orange 16 Meg LLU => 2011: Orange 20 Meg WBC
Standard User 4M2
(fountain of knowledge) Tue 02-Apr-13 16:42:02
Print Post

Re: DSL Error Help


[re: XRaySpeX] [link to this post]
 
It would be nice to run another router just to verify the reported error rates etc. assuming the connection remains as it is and stable smile
Standard User 4M2
(fountain of knowledge) Tue 02-Apr-13 16:58:20
Print Post

Re: DSL Error Help


[re: Vince730i] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by Vince730i:
I'm just so confused with all these problems with Signal Loss. The throughput speed is looking pretty impressive, but I just worry how much more of these problems I can take smile EE called me after the Engineer visit and wanted to run a line test. Is this normal? I refused to let them as I didn't see the need or the point.


Yes that why I thought investing in another router may or may not verify the signal loss issues which is causing you some anxiety. If the connection holds and the sync speed is maintained with error seconds, loss of framing, loss of signal etc. and they are not excessive then you will be fine - at worst you may only go from fastpath to interleaved smile

It was polite of EE to call you but you are obviously able to see (and hear) for yourself how the line is performing and, indeed, what was the point of their line test other than to actually check if any work was done?
Standard User Vince730i
(learned) Tue 02-Apr-13 20:12:48
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Re: DSL Error Help


[re: XRaySpeX] [link to this post]
 
Thanks for clarifying that. I had forgotten about turning the router off and back on again. I'm sure I've left my brain somewhere I can't find it smile
Standard User Vince730i
(learned) Tue 02-Apr-13 20:22:10
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Re: DSL Error Help


[re: 4M2] [link to this post]
 
I think I will do do this in two stages. First I'm going to follow XRaySpecX advice and remove the faceplate again and connect to the Master Socket, reboot and see how that goes for a couple of days.

Secondly.... If that shows any issues, we can rule out the faceplate and go with your suggestion of a new router. Advice on Make would be appreciated smile as I've only really heard of Belkin and Netgear.
Standard User Vince730i
(learned) Tue 02-Apr-13 20:27:12
Print Post

Re: DSL Error Help


[re: Vince730i] [link to this post]
 
Let me know if I'm posting these Stats to often, but its a good way of keeping a record of them.

Stats after just over 6 hours connected :


ADSL STATUS

This page shows information about your ADSL connection if applicable.

Status
Configured Current
Line Status --- SHOWTIME
Link Type --- Fast Path
Operation Mode Automatic G992.5(ADSL2+)
Data Rate Information
Stream Type Actual Data Rate
Upstream 1195 (Kbps.)
Downstream 15697 (Kbps.)
Defect/Failure Indication
Operation Data Upstream Downstream
Noise Margin 6.3 dB 5.1 dB
Line Attenuation 17.6 dB 32.5 dB
Indicator Name Near End Indicator Far End Indicator
Output Power 12.3 dBm 0.0 dBm
Fast Path FEC Correction 0 0
Interleaved Path FEC Correction NA NA
Fast Path CRC Error 5592 10
Interleaved Path CRC Error NA NA
Loss of Signal Defect 3 0
Fast Path HEC Error STR 33153 7
Interleaved Path HEC Error NA NA
Error Seconds 2355 27
Statistics
Received Cells 12181473
Transmitted Cells 34666291
Standard User 4M2
(fountain of knowledge) Tue 02-Apr-13 20:43:35
Print Post

Re: DSL Error Help


[re: Vince730i] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by Vince730i:
I think I will do do this in two stages. First I'm going to follow XRaySpecX advice and remove the faceplate again and connect to the Master Socket, reboot and see how that goes for a couple of days.

Secondly.... If that shows any issues, we can rule out the faceplate and go with your suggestion of a new router. Advice on Make would be appreciated smile as I've only really heard of Belkin and Netgear.


Yes I didn't mean to rush into buying a new router, see how it goes first following XRaySpeX's sound advice and then consider an alternative router to verify stats and to have as a spare.

I'm not fussy about routers, just use one's that are several years old which people think are no good because they don't have a "n" wireless capability, yet 9 times out of 10 folks don't need any more than 20Mbps on their WLAN which is easily achievable with "g". For example, a used Thomson TG585 v7 (ex-Plusnet branded) in which I installed generic firmware works really well on my ADSL2+ connection.
Standard User XRaySpeX
(eat-sleep-adslguide) Tue 02-Apr-13 21:45:26
Print Post

Re: DSL Error Help


[re: Vince730i] [link to this post]
 
That's with faceplate on and no reboot?

LoS holding OK, but ES too high. Aim for about no more than 1 ES per min.

1999: Freeserve 48K Dial-Up => 2005: Wanadoo 1 Meg BB => 2007: Orange 2 Meg BB => 2008: Orange 8 Meg LLU => 2010: Orange 16 Meg LLU => 2011: Orange 20 Meg WBC
Standard User Vince730i
(learned) Tue 02-Apr-13 23:42:14
Print Post

Re: DSL Error Help


[re: XRaySpeX] [link to this post]
 
Yes. Faceplate is still on as Tuesdays are a busy night for me over on Twitter - so not had the chance to remove it yet. Just checked the Stats again and after 9hours connected, ES's are now at 6681. I'm guessing this is far to high and the faceplate needs to come off to see if this helps to keep them down. Also I have massively fluctuating speeds. I know I'm in the 10 day stabilisation, but a D/L of 0.34 and an U/L of 0.67 can't be right can it ? Or is this something you would normally expect? The router is still showing a Downstream of 15697kbps. Also, would it be worth asking EE to send another router or just purchase a new one? And Thanks for all your help smile
Standard User Vince730i
(learned) Tue 02-Apr-13 23:50:02
Print Post

Re: DSL Error Help


[re: 4M2] [link to this post]
 
Thanks for the router advice. I'm looking into it now smile
Just a thought, I've got my old Sky Sagem router still. It's about 3 years old and was very stable and reliable. Is it worth bothering with or too difficult to change the firmware ?
Standard User 4M2
(fountain of knowledge) Wed 03-Apr-13 00:35:12
Print Post

Re: DSL Error Help


[re: Vince730i] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by Vince730i:
Thanks for the router advice. I'm looking into it now smile
Just a thought, I've got my old Sky Sagem router still. It's about 3 years old and was very stable and reliable. Is it worth bothering with or too difficult to change the firmware ?


Probably best to use the test socket again for a while as XRaySpeX suggested and monitor how your broadband performs with the current router. Then at a later stage, if you are still reasonably happy with the service that you are getting from the ISP, i.e. stability and throughput speeds, we can look again at the error rates etc. and verify, with another router, that you have an optimised connection (and of course you will have a spare - the Sky Sagem might be OK for that, but I'm not sure though.)

If you are not happy with the service and decide to change ISP then another router would probably be provided anyway.
Standard User Vince730i
(learned) Wed 03-Apr-13 01:05:15
Print Post

Re: DSL Error Help


[re: 4M2] [link to this post]
 
You're absolutely right. I think my biggest problem so far is frustration. My 10 day stabilisation seems to of lasted for at least 30 days so far - so I tend to be running away with ideas a bit. Saying that.... I think it's safe to say that once my BB is sorted, they will probably role out Fibre Optic. It's jurist my luck smile
Standard User 4M2
(fountain of knowledge) Wed 03-Apr-13 01:17:13
Print Post

Re: DSL Error Help


[re: Vince730i] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by Vince730i:
You're absolutely right. I think my biggest problem so far is frustration. My 10 day stabilisation seems to of lasted for at least 30 days so far - so I tend to be running away with ideas a bit. Saying that.... I think it's safe to say that once my BB is sorted, they will probably role out Fibre Optic. It's jurist my luck smile


No harm would be done though if you requested EE to send out another router - it is normal to try an alternative router/adsl lead/micro filter in the test socket when one has concerns about broadband performance. But I don't think we have got to that stage yet smile

Edit: Actually ISP's, such as Plusnet, will recommend the use of an alternative router etc. in the test socket before one agrees to having an OR SFI visit. That increases the chances of the fault being exchange side of the NTE5/test socket and hence one would not be charged for the diagnosis and repair if the fault was found beyond one’s premises.

Edited by 4M2 (Wed 03-Apr-13 01:35:34)

Standard User Vince730i
(learned) Wed 03-Apr-13 02:30:39
Print Post

Re: DSL Error Help


[re: 4M2] [link to this post]
 
I'm still sure there is something not quite right with these ES's. I noticed from the lights on the router had gone out and it was re-syncing. 10 minutes later I copied the stats.

Status
Configured Current
Line Status --- SHOWTIME
Link Type --- Fast Path
Operation Mode Automatic G992.5(ADSL2+)
Data Rate Information
Stream Type Actual Data Rate
Upstream 1195 (Kbps.)
Downstream 14007 (Kbps.)
Defect/Failure Indication
Operation Data Upstream Downstream
Noise Margin 6.0 dB 6.4 dB
Line Attenuation 17.6 dB 32.5 dB
Indicator Name Near End Indicator Far End Indicator
Output Power 12.2 dBm 0.0 dBm
Fast Path FEC Correction 0 0
Interleaved Path FEC Correction NA NA
Fast Path CRC Error 4086 0
Interleaved Path CRC Error NA NA
Loss of Signal Defect 0 0
Fast Path HEC Error STR 3334 0
Interleaved Path HEC Error NA NA
Error Seconds 153 0
Statistics
Received Cells 449091
Transmitted Cells 110603

I think XRaySpecX said we were looking for 1 per minute.
Standard User Vince730i
(learned) Wed 03-Apr-13 02:57:52
Print Post

Re: DSL Error Help


[re: Vince730i] [link to this post]
 
As a follow up to the previous stats. Faceplate is removed and router rebooted. This is the stats 10 minutes after the reboot.

ADSL STATUS

This page shows information about your ADSL connection if applicable.

Status
Configured Current
Line Status --- SHOWTIME
Link Type --- Fast Path
Operation Mode Automatic G992.5(ADSL2+)
Data Rate Information
Stream Type Actual Data Rate
Upstream 1227 (Kbps.)
Downstream 14707 (Kbps.)
Defect/Failure Indication
Operation Data Upstream Downstream
Noise Margin 6.6 dB 6.1 dB
Line Attenuation 17.6 dB 32.5 dB
Indicator Name Near End Indicator Far End Indicator
Output Power 12.3 dBm 0.0 dBm
Fast Path FEC Correction 0 0
Interleaved Path FEC Correction NA NA
Fast Path CRC Error 6115 3
Interleaved Path CRC Error NA NA
Loss of Signal Defect 0 0
Fast Path HEC Error STR 14870 4
Interleaved Path HEC Error NA NA
Error Seconds 203 2
Statistics
Received Cells 36296
Transmitted Cells 48447
Standard User XRaySpeX
(eat-sleep-adslguide) Wed 03-Apr-13 04:01:05
Print Post

Re: DSL Error Help


[re: Vince730i] [link to this post]
 
Too short a period. Need days rarher than mins. Just let it run and take stats daily. Plse post Time Connected alongside them.

Good it is holding 6 dB NM Fast Path and no LoS.

1999: Freeserve 48K Dial-Up => 2005: Wanadoo 1 Meg BB => 2007: Orange 2 Meg BB => 2008: Orange 8 Meg LLU => 2010: Orange 16 Meg LLU => 2011: Orange 20 Meg WBC
Standard User Vince730i
(regular) Wed 03-Apr-13 10:18:16
Print Post

Re: DSL Error Help


[re: XRaySpeX] [link to this post]
 
Thanks. I am really impressed with the overall improvement so far. I think I'm getting a bit too varied away with these Stats and in particular ES's, but I guess I need it to stabilise as that could cause a high amount of ES's maybe ? Any particular time of day to post stats (and time connect) ?
Standard User 4M2
(fountain of knowledge) Wed 03-Apr-13 10:46:50
Print Post

Re: DSL Error Help


[re: Vince730i] [link to this post]
 
Sometimes I get a bunch of errors during a resync - leave the router connected to the test socket and perhaps post the stats daily at a time convenient for yourself and then we can see how the errors have accumulated over 24 hours. If however you are getting frequent resyncs when connected to the test socket (maybe 2 or more per day) then it might be time to think of using another router.

Check with XRaySpeX regarding your current router and whether it has a log showing the time of a resync or the total time of the DSL connection.

BTW. a TG585 v7 router has a log showing the stats at sync time and also the total time of DSL (and PPP link) up time in the normal stats GUI.

Edited by 4M2 (Wed 03-Apr-13 10:57:49)

Standard User Vince730i
(regular) Wed 03-Apr-13 11:01:01
Print Post

Re: DSL Error Help


[re: 4M2] [link to this post]
 
Thanks. Going by previous issues with resync, I am fully expecting it to do a bunch of them tomorrow evening as Thursdays seem to of become the norm for problems. I am hoping I'm wrong though.

All I have on my router regarding time connected is on the basic set up page and the time connected zero's with every re-sync. Is this the time you want me to post - or is there usually another one hidden on another page that I've not noticed yet? I will understand and get used to this one day I'm sure smile if not feel free to 'virtual slap' me.
Standard User 4M2
(fountain of knowledge) Wed 03-Apr-13 11:08:37
Print Post

Re: DSL Error Help


[re: Vince730i] [link to this post]
 
Time connected will be fine smile

Could be that something is creating significant noise events on Thursdays that is trashing your DSL coonection?
Standard User Vince730i
(regular) Wed 03-Apr-13 12:16:11
Print Post

Re: DSL Error Help


[re: 4M2] [link to this post]
 
I can only think it must be something that's causing it, but I can't think what. Just had a courtesy call from EE who decided to test my line and drop my BB connection before I even answered the call. We had a quick chat about how things were going, I mentioned the high amount of ES's mainly just as a record during the call more than anything, and he said it was "probably to do with the Exchange" so I logged into my router and no ES have been recorded from the exchange, but I had 253. He said he will have to look into it,. Although judging by his confused voice, I suspect he has absolutely no idea what I'm asking about. I'm hoping it is just the stabilisation that is recording the high amount of ES, but only time will tell smile

I must thank you guys again. I felt a lot more confident while on the phone today talking about things with EE's Fault Management Team - and it wouldn't of been possible without your knowledge and help - so thanks again. It is massively appreciated smile
Standard User 4M2
(fountain of knowledge) Wed 03-Apr-13 12:29:45
Print Post

Re: DSL Error Help


[re: Vince730i] [link to this post]
 
They possibly just work from scripts - post your router stats again tonight, if it is convenient, and mention if you have had any more resyncs today.

Before their call did you lose just the PPP link (internet) or the DSL connection (broadband) ?
Standard User XRaySpeX
(eat-sleep-adslguide) Wed 03-Apr-13 13:04:48
Print Post

Re: DSL Error Help


[re: Vince730i] [link to this post]
 
My pennyworth on a new router ...

I find the BrightBox an excellent router, good features, reliable, fast N wireless, holds a fast connection ... Unless it is faulty, and there is no evidence that it is, there is no need to replace it and if it is faulty EE should replace it.

You can confirm its readings, more or less, by connecting the Siemens, which is a reasonable average router, for a bit.

It's always worth having a back-up router and the Siemens would do for that. Or I'd recommend looking for a new Netgear DG834GT, but only G wireless, on eBay for under £20. No need to spend much on a router.

1999: Freeserve 48K Dial-Up => 2005: Wanadoo 1 Meg BB => 2007: Orange 2 Meg BB => 2008: Orange 8 Meg LLU => 2010: Orange 16 Meg LLU => 2011: Orange 20 Meg WBC
Standard User Vince730i
(regular) Wed 03-Apr-13 13:10:46
Print Post

Re: DSL Error Help


[re: 4M2] [link to this post]
 
I think the must be reading from scripts! Regarding the loss of connection, I noticed the globe light had gone off and my Son had been disconnected from his Skype call to his friend. After the Fault Manager introduced himself I immediately asked if he'd done a line test and he said yes.

Edited by Vince730i (Wed 03-Apr-13 18:20:43)

Standard User Vince730i
(regular) Wed 03-Apr-13 13:20:23
Print Post

Re: DSL Error Help


[re: XRaySpeX] [link to this post]
 
Thanks for your post.

Is the Netgear DG834GT an update of an older Netgear router? I ask as looking at the pictures, I'm sure I have a Sky branded one here somewhere that is more than like the G Wireless version as its quite old smile
Standard User 4M2
(fountain of knowledge) Wed 03-Apr-13 13:23:04
Print Post

Re: DSL Error Help


[re: Vince730i] [link to this post]
 
Not necessarily a bad thing working from a script since that eliminates personal opinions and possibly unlikely scenarios which may confuse end users.

What's the globe light? Does that indicate that the PPP link is up?
Standard User Vince730i
(regular) Wed 03-Apr-13 13:37:58
Print Post

Re: DSL Error Help


[re: 4M2] [link to this post]
 
That's a good point regarding script reading.

And the globe light does indicate if PPP link is up or down smile
Standard User 4M2
(fountain of knowledge) Wed 03-Apr-13 13:54:19
Print Post

Re: DSL Error Help


[re: Vince730i] [link to this post]
 
So the DSL did remain connected and it was only the PPP link that went down when they tested the line?

It just that sometimes an incoming phone call or line test can cause the DSL to drop due to a line fault - but that is one of those possibly unlikely opinionated scenarios that may not be scripted laugh
Standard User Vince730i
(regular) Wed 03-Apr-13 18:25:22
Print Post

Re: DSL Error Help


[re: 4M2] [link to this post]
 
Broadband State: Connected
Internet State: Connected
Time Connected: 06:35:40
Downstream Rate: 15852kbps
Upstream Rate: 1235kbps

ADSL STATUS

Status
Configured Current
Line Status --- SHOWTIME
Link Type --- Fast Path
Operation Mode Automatic G992.5(ADSL2+)
Data Rate Information
Stream Type Actual Data Rate
Upstream 1235 (Kbps.)
Downstream 15852 (Kbps.)
Defect/Failure Indication
Operation Data Upstream Downstream
Noise Margin 6.2 dB 5.9 dB
Line Attenuation 17.6 dB 32.5 dB
Indicator Name Near End Indicator Far End Indicator
Output Power 12.3 dBm 0.0 dBm
Fast Path FEC Correction 0 0
Interleaved Path FEC Correction NA NA
Fast Path CRC Error 6553 21
Interleaved Path CRC Error NA NA
Loss of Signal Defect 0 0
Fast Path HEC Error STR 49232 15
Interleaved Path HEC Error NA NA
Error Seconds 3347 39
Statistics
Received Cells 20842672
Transmitted Cells 9676932

From what I can make out, it's all looking quite good ? smile
Standard User 4M2
(fountain of knowledge) Wed 03-Apr-13 19:09:38
Print Post

Re: DSL Error Help


[re: Vince730i] [link to this post]
 
Yes it's certainly holding the connection since EE's intervention, keep an eye on the error rates, when it's convenient, since I don't think we are quite "out of the woods" yet - but I agree generally looking really good in terms of sync speeds and noise margins smile
Standard User Vince730i
(regular) Wed 03-Apr-13 20:09:26
Print Post

Re: DSL Error Help


[re: 4M2] [link to this post]
 
Cool, thanks smile I'm hoping stabilisation is responsible for a large part of the Errors early on - and they settle down as the days pass by. Is Ping affected by the Stabilisation process? Mine isn't excessively high (between 200 - 250ms) but is normally no higher than 50ms. I'm not complaining about it and it doesn't really affect me, but just wondered why that's shot up.

I'm sure I will run out of questions soon smile
Standard User 4M2
(fountain of knowledge) Wed 03-Apr-13 20:19:15
Print Post

Re: DSL Error Help


[re: Vince730i] [link to this post]
 
Between 200ms and 250ms is quite long for a fastpath connection.

Can you try 'ping bbc.co.uk' (without the inverted commas) from Windows Command Prompt?

Edited by 4M2 (Wed 03-Apr-13 20:20:57)

Standard User XRaySpeX
(eat-sleep-adslguide) Wed 03-Apr-13 20:25:52
Print Post

Re: DSL Error Help


[re: Vince730i] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by Vince730i:
And the globe light does indicate if PPP link is up or down smile
The single Globe light doubles up as "In Sync" and "PPP Up"; I think, No Sync = OFF, Sync but no PPP = Flashing, Both = ON.

1999: Freeserve 48K Dial-Up => 2005: Wanadoo 1 Meg BB => 2007: Orange 2 Meg BB => 2008: Orange 8 Meg LLU => 2010: Orange 16 Meg LLU => 2011: Orange 20 Meg WBC
Standard User XRaySpeX
(eat-sleep-adslguide) Wed 03-Apr-13 20:38:06
Print Post

Re: DSL Error Help


[re: Vince730i] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by Vince730i:
Mine isn't excessively high (between 200 - 250ms) but is normally no higher than 50ms.
To where? Seems high.

Try 'ping bbc.co.uk'; I get 11 ms on Fast Path.

Sky once issued a locked but unlockable version of the white DG834GT (I have one). Also a black Sky DG934G which was a locked version of Netgear DG834G v3.

1999: Freeserve 48K Dial-Up => 2005: Wanadoo 1 Meg BB => 2007: Orange 2 Meg BB => 2008: Orange 8 Meg LLU => 2010: Orange 16 Meg LLU => 2011: Orange 20 Meg WBC
Standard User Vince730i
(regular) Wed 03-Apr-13 22:33:35
Print Post

Re: DSL Error Help


[re: XRaySpeX] [link to this post]
 
I'm glad you guys are on here to sort out what I mean smile

Tested the ping bcc.co.uk and the result was 97.6ms in not sure why speedtest . net shows it about twice that. Very odd stuff.

I'm going to invest in a Netgear Router as trying to mess around with the old one will only lead me back here with more questions smile
Standard User Vince730i
(regular) Wed 03-Apr-13 22:40:09
Print Post

Re: DSL Error Help


[re: XRaySpeX] [link to this post]
 
The ping test I used with those results of 200-250ms were to Bristol via Speedtest . net

Just looking at the stats again.

Status
Configured Current
Line Status --- SHOWTIME
Link Type --- Fast Path
Operation Mode Automatic G992.5(ADSL2+)
Data Rate Information
Stream Type Actual Data Rate
Upstream 1235 (Kbps.)
Downstream 15852 (Kbps.)
Defect/Failure Indication
Operation Data Upstream Downstream
Noise Margin 6.0 dB 4.9 dB
Line Attenuation 17.6 dB 32.5 dB
Indicator Name Near End Indicator Far End Indicator
Output Power 12.3 dBm 0.0 dBm
Fast Path FEC Correction 0 0
Interleaved Path FEC Correction NA NA
Fast Path CRC Error 16027 58
Interleaved Path CRC Error NA NA
Loss of Signal Defect 2 0
Fast Path HEC Error STR 98449 58
Interleaved Path HEC Error NA NA
Error Seconds 5774 63
Statistics
Received Cells 59193972
Transmitted Cells 22655129

Time Connected

Broadband Type: ADSL
Broadband State: Connected
Internet State: Connected
Time Connected: 10:54:33
Downstream Rate: 15852kbps
Upstream Rate: 1235kbps
Standard User 4M2
(fountain of knowledge) Thu 04-Apr-13 00:45:41
Print Post

Re: DSL Error Help


[re: Vince730i] [link to this post]
 
Near end error seconds might still be a reason for concern, i.e. 2427 in 259 minutes, but I would imagine that they are at a steady rate rather than in bursts which could cause the DSL to drop.

Ping to bbc.co.uk should really have been much faster which suggests there is an issue with latency.

Problem is now that you are in a situation where the ISP may not be willing to act since your sync speeds and noise margins are really good. See how it goes for the next 24 hours and if the connection holds and throughput speeds are acceptable (especially during your problem Thursday evenings) then you may have to live with the error seconds and slow ping until we can verify the performance of your line with another router/ADSL lead/micro filter in the test socket.
Standard User yarwell
(sensei) Thu 04-Apr-13 06:26:08
Print Post

Re: DSL Error Help


[re: Vince730i] [link to this post]
 
hopefully in a new thread wink

--

Phil

MaxDSL - goes as fast as it can and doesn't read the line checker first.

MaxDSL diagnostics
Standard User Vince730i
(regular) Thu 04-Apr-13 12:03:24
Print Post

Re: DSL Error Help


[re: 4M2] [link to this post]
 
Afternoon all. Here are the Stats for the last 24 hours. I've not had any LoS
During this time, but that could change tonight, although I hope it doesn't smile


Broadband State: Connected
Internet State: Connected
Time Connected: 1 day 00:10:20
Downstream Rate: 15852kbps
Upstream Rate: 1235kbps

Status
Configured Current
Line Status --- SHOWTIME
Link Type --- Fast Path
Operation Mode Automatic G992.5(ADSL2+)
Data Rate Information
Stream Type Actual Data Rate
Upstream 1235 (Kbps.)
Downstream 15852 (Kbps.)
Defect/Failure Indication
Operation Data Upstream Downstream
Noise Margin 6.4 dB 6.1 dB
Line Attenuation 17.6 dB 32.5 dB
Indicator Name Near End Indicator Far End Indicator
Output Power 12.3 dBm 0.0 dBm
Fast Path FEC Correction 0 0
Interleaved Path FEC Correction NA NA
Fast Path CRC Error 316529 69
Interleaved Path CRC Error NA NA
Loss of Signal Defect 0 0
Fast Path HEC Error STR 1091309 69
Interleaved Path HEC Error NA NA
Error Seconds 16745 74
Statistics
Received Cells 4289744
Transmitted Cells 35467707
Standard User 4M2
(fountain of knowledge) Thu 04-Apr-13 12:20:45
Print Post

Re: DSL Error Help


[re: Vince730i] [link to this post]
 
Still looking pretty good smile

There were a couple of LoS last night: "Loss of Signal Defect 2 0"
- nothing significant and they may be deleted them from the stats at intervals?

It's possible you may get a resync at some point soon and be switched from fastpath to interleaved due to the error rates...if that does happen ping bbc.co.uk just to check the latency.
Standard User Vince730i
(regular) Thu 04-Apr-13 12:56:55
Print Post

Re: DSL Error Help


[re: 4M2] [link to this post]
 
To be honest, after the first OR Engineer visit, I fully expected to be switched to Interleaved at some point during the massive LoS and high ES's, but it didn't happen. It stayed on Fast Path and that really did surprise me. I think the 2 LoS were due to EE doing a line test, but I'm not sure.
I'm guessing that should I be switched to Interleaved, I will notice a big loss in D/L speeds?
I say this as when I was on Iterleaved when my EE BB was activated, my speeds would be anywhere between 3.5 and 5.5 and on a weekend (usually a Sunday) I would struggle to get 2meg.
Is there anything I can do or try to reduce the high amount of ES's ?
Standard User 4M2
(fountain of knowledge) Thu 04-Apr-13 13:13:44
Print Post

Re: DSL Error Help


[re: Vince730i] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by Vince730i:
...Is there anything I can do or try to reduce the high amount of ES's ?


Well the DSL connection is holding and you are using the test socket so at this point it's just a case of monitoring and waiting to see what happens. If the DSL starts to drop frequently even when you are on interleaved, use an alternative router/ADSL lead/micro filter then it's probably a job for an OR SFI engineer to investigate. However we certainly haven't got to that stage yet smile

Edit: Interleaving will not reduce your downstream sync speed significantly but I believe your upstream sync speed will be reduced markedly on 21CN WBC. Generally pings will be longer also.

Edited by 4M2 (Thu 04-Apr-13 13:20:50)

Standard User Vince730i
(regular) Thu 04-Apr-13 13:47:54
Print Post

Re: DSL Error Help


[re: yarwell] [link to this post]
 
Think I'm already suffering an information overload which is why I would rather buy a new router instead of trying to reflash a Sky branded one smile

You're all safe for now smile
Standard User XRaySpeX
(eat-sleep-adslguide) Thu 04-Apr-13 14:05:08
Print Post

Re: DSL Error Help


[re: Vince730i] [link to this post]
 
Why not just try the Siemens router that you already have for starters? Altho' I see no evidence there is anything wrong with this one.

It's all a bit psycological. It's only that this router reports error stats that you are aware of them. Some don't! On Netgears you don't see them immediately thro' the normal GUI.

1999: Freeserve 48K Dial-Up => 2005: Wanadoo 1 Meg BB => 2007: Orange 2 Meg BB => 2008: Orange 8 Meg LLU => 2010: Orange 16 Meg LLU => 2011: Orange 20 Meg WBC
Standard User Vince730i
(regular) Thu 04-Apr-13 14:08:50
Print Post

Re: DSL Error Help


[re: 4M2] [link to this post]
 
Interesting. What might of changed that caused my D/L speed to increase so much ?

I thought the lower speeds were due to the Interleaved setting capping speeds on long lines which gives a more stable connection and holds the D/L speeds lower.

I was also hoping that the ES's would level off a bit, but it looks like they haven't yet.
Standard User 4M2
(fountain of knowledge) Thu 04-Apr-13 14:15:47
Print Post

Re: DSL Error Help


[re: Vince730i] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by Vince730i:
Interesting. What might of changed that caused my D/L speed to increase so much ?

I thought the lower speeds were due to the Interleaved setting capping speeds on long lines which gives a more stable connection and holds the D/L speeds lower.

I was also hoping that the ES's would level off a bit, but it looks like they haven't yet.


Downstream noise margin from ~15dB to ~6db smile

Error seconds don't appear to be occuring in bursts so your DSL is holding - see how it goes tonight during your normally problematic Thursday evenings...
Standard User Vince730i
(regular) Thu 04-Apr-13 14:15:51
Print Post

Re: DSL Error Help


[re: XRaySpeX] [link to this post]
 
The Siemens router is Sky branded. I get what you're saying though.

I did discuss the ES's with EE yesterday and he could see them from his end, but was passing it though the Fault Management team so they could take a look at them - not heard from them since smile
Standard User XRaySpeX
(eat-sleep-adslguide) Thu 04-Apr-13 14:31:14
Print Post

Re: DSL Error Help


[re: Vince730i] [link to this post]
 
Ah, I thought you meant the old Orange Siemens router.

1999: Freeserve 48K Dial-Up => 2005: Wanadoo 1 Meg BB => 2007: Orange 2 Meg BB => 2008: Orange 8 Meg LLU => 2010: Orange 16 Meg LLU => 2011: Orange 20 Meg WBC
Standard User Vince730i
(regular) Thu 04-Apr-13 15:53:04
Print Post

Re: DSL Error Help


[re: XRaySpeX] [link to this post]
 
Sorry if I caused any confusion with the router. To be honest, it all seems to be holding well and the speed is incredible from what I was used to smile

Regarding the Ping issue. The ping . bbc returned a ping of 88.7.
Speedtest . net 127 and the BTw speedtester 33.13

I don't know who to believe smile
Standard User Vince730i
(regular) Thu 04-Apr-13 19:58:41
Print Post

Re: DSL Error Help


[re: 4M2] [link to this post]
 
I forgot about the NM coming down - so that explains my speed smile still confused over the 3 different Ping results. BTw Speedtester being the lowest at 33.13ms.
Standard User 4M2
(fountain of knowledge) Thu 04-Apr-13 20:45:05
Print Post

Re: DSL Error Help


[re: Vince730i] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by Vince730i:
...still confused over the 3 different Ping results. BTw Speedtester being the lowest at 33.13ms.


Try 'tracert bbc.co.uk' (without the inverted commas) from Windows Command Prompt and copy&paste the results if you get a chance - right click > edit > mark > highlight > edit > copy > paste, etc. from the top of the Command Prompt window.
Standard User Vince730i
(regular) Thu 04-Apr-13 23:25:08
Print Post

Re: DSL Error Help


[re: 4M2] [link to this post]
 
I will give that a go tomorrow smile its not worth it tonight as my speeds are all over the place and I'm guessing that because of the 10 day Stabilisation. 0.37 D/L 0.63 U/L and 204ms ping.
I really didn't expect stabilisation to reduce the speed so low, but the upside... No Signal Losses as of yet smile

Would it hurt to reboot the router ? Or is it best to just leave it and see if the speeds pick up ?

Edited by Vince730i (Thu 04-Apr-13 23:28:18)

Standard User 4M2
(fountain of knowledge) Fri 05-Apr-13 00:11:55
Print Post

Re: DSL Error Help


[re: Vince730i] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by Vince730i:
I will give that a go tomorrow smile its not worth it tonight as my speeds are all over the place and I'm guessing that because of the 10 day Stabilisation. 0.37 D/L 0.63 U/L and 204ms ping.
I really didn't expect stabilisation to reduce the speed so low, but the upside... No Signal Losses as of yet smile

Would it hurt to reboot the router ? Or is it best to just leave it and see if the speeds pick up ?


What sort of results are you getting from the BT speed tester?
Standard User RobertoS
(sensei) Fri 05-Apr-13 00:21:59
Print Post

Re: DSL Error Help


[re: Vince730i] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by Vince730i:
... my speeds are all over the place and I'm guessing that because of the 10 day Stabilisation
You've mentioned this several times.

I'm afraid the 10 days doesn't work like that. It might make the occasional connection (sync) speed adjustment, usually downwards, but it doesn't cause anything like what you are reporting.

There is a serious problem somewhere, but at the moment I can't think what it might be.

My broadband basic info/help site - www.robertos.me.uk | Domains,website and mail hosting - Tsohost.
Connection - Plusnet UnLim Fibre (FTTC). Sync ~ 54.2/15.2Mbps @ 600m. - BQM

"Where talent is a dwarf, self-esteem is a giant." - Jean-Antoine Petit-Senn.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Allergy information: This post was manufactured in an environment where nuts are present. It may include traces of understatement, litotes and humour.
Standard User 4M2
(fountain of knowledge) Fri 05-Apr-13 00:35:13
Print Post

Re: DSL Error Help


[re: RobertoS] [link to this post]
 
You probably read that the OP's ISP fault management team are apparemtly aware of issues and they are investigating...

Starting to look like try another router and if no improvement then an SFI might be needed?
Standard User Vince730i
(regular) Fri 05-Apr-13 02:10:49
Print Post

Re: DSL Error Help


[re: RobertoS] [link to this post]
 
I've never seen such a huge variation with the speeds as this before - and I took it for granted that its because I've been in stabilisation for the best part of 30 days with the odd break of a day or two.

Interestingly enough. EE are refusing to look into the issue as they have told me "We will not class this issue as a fault as you are in the stabilisation period" so I asked if we could add some notes to the fault that the OR Engineer came out for on the 2nd if April, and I was a little surprised to hear that EE fault Management Team have since "closed the fault down as its been rectified."

In will have to wait until12th of April now before they will investigate again.
Administrator MrSaffron
(staff) Fri 05-Apr-13 08:48:33
Print Post

Re: DSL Error Help


[re: Vince730i] [link to this post]
 
There is no stabilisation period of 30 days.

Wbc speeds can go up or down every time a resync occurs depending on

Current rf noise present
Target noise margin
Any banding applied
Changes in line eg drying or dampening joint

Andrew Ferguson, andrew@thinkbroadband.com
www.thinkbroadband.com - formerly known as ADSLguide.org.uk
The author of the above post is a thinkbroadband staff member. It may not constitute an official statement on behalf of thinkbroadband.
Standard User Vince730i
(regular) Fri 05-Apr-13 12:31:49
Print Post

Re: DSL Error Help


[re: MrSaffron] [link to this post]
 
This is my 3rd time of being in Stabilisation. 1 When my BB was activated,, 2, when the first engineer had been out and 3, the second engineer visit. So because of this, I have found it very difficult to recovers how stable my BB is running. Even more so when EE seem to think that no issue I call with will be raised as a fault until I am out of stabilisation.
Standard User 4M2
(fountain of knowledge) Fri 05-Apr-13 12:46:12
Print Post

Re: DSL Error Help


[re: Vince730i] [link to this post]
 
I may be wrong (usually am smile ) but I think a new stabilization/training period will only start again if your line is formally reset, if the line has not been reset the exchange kit will be constantly monitoring your line after the first 10 days and resyncs and adjustments may occur due to noise events or frequently perceived interruptions of the DSL connection.
Standard User Vince730i
(regular) Fri 05-Apr-13 12:53:27
Print Post

Re: DSL Error Help


[re: 4M2] [link to this post]
 
Both OR Engineers did reset it at the exchange, although the first one said "it will stabilise in 48 hours and the speed at this point will be the speed it will stay at."

The 2nd OR Engineer said I will have to sit out the 10 days and my line will support 9.7meg. He also said that my speed during the 10 days shouldn't drop below 4meg, but it might re-sync.

I've not looked at the Stats this morning, but will post them shortly smile
Standard User XRaySpeX
(eat-sleep-adslguide) Fri 05-Apr-13 12:54:54
Print Post

Re: DSL Error Help


[re: Vince730i] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by Vince730i:
This is my 3rd time of being in Stabilisation. 1 When my BB was activated,, 2, when the first engineer had been out and 3, the second engineer visit.
How do you know that you were put in a 10 day training period after the 2 eng visits? Did your ISP tell you so? The eng wouldn't know regardless of what he told you.

It needs to be formally recommenced by the ISP/BTw. An eng visit is not a trigger.

1999: Freeserve 48K Dial-Up => 2005: Wanadoo 1 Meg BB => 2007: Orange 2 Meg BB => 2008: Orange 8 Meg LLU => 2010: Orange 16 Meg LLU => 2011: Orange 20 Meg WBC
Standard User 4M2
(fountain of knowledge) Fri 05-Apr-13 13:01:04
Print Post

Re: DSL Error Help


[re: Vince730i] [link to this post]
 
I'm still intrigued by what happened on the 2nd April after the engineer's vist: a while after he left the stats improved dramatically - I wonder if he went to the cabinet or to the exchange and did something.

Unfortunately engineers' reports tend to by like medical records and the patient rarely sees them frown
Standard User Vince730i
(regular) Fri 05-Apr-13 13:11:50
Print Post

Re: DSL Error Help


[re: XRaySpeX] [link to this post]
 
Both Engineers told me I would be. And whenever I call EE with a problem they tell me I'm in stabilisation. I'm kind of concerned that if I've not been in stabilisation, what is going on with my hugely fluctuating speeds

I've never been told by the fault management team that I'm in stabilisation. I've only ever been told by Customer Services and and both OR Engineers.
Standard User Vince730i
(regular) Fri 05-Apr-13 13:16:33
Print Post

Re: DSL Error Help


[re: 4M2] [link to this post]
 
Is it worth me giving EE a cal and asking if the Engineerwent to the cabinet or exchange?
Standard User 4M2
(fountain of knowledge) Fri 05-Apr-13 13:18:12
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Re: DSL Error Help


[re: Vince730i] [link to this post]
 
Probably some confusion in terminology regarding the constant monitoring of your line for stability and "best speed possible" by the exchange kit and the so called 10 day training period...
Standard User 4M2
(fountain of knowledge) Fri 05-Apr-13 13:22:17
Print Post

Re: DSL Error Help


[re: Vince730i] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by Vince730i:
Is it worth me giving EE a cal and asking if the Engineerwent to the cabinet or exchange?


No, wouldn't bother - I think you said in a post just now, which I missed, that both engineers went to the exchange and did some work on your line.
Standard User Vince730i
(regular) Fri 05-Apr-13 13:30:33
Print Post

Re: DSL Error Help


[re: 4M2] [link to this post]
 
I have no idea if either of the Engineers went to the exchange or street cabinet. Both Engineers said that when they do all the tests on my line it will reset it. I'm confused smile
Administrator MrSaffron
(staff) Fri 05-Apr-13 13:30:39
Print Post

Re: DSL Error Help


[re: Vince730i] [link to this post]
 
In both cases probably just did their job and the variations are down to the ongoing ability of WBC connections to vary their speed.

Andrew Ferguson, andrew@thinkbroadband.com
www.thinkbroadband.com - formerly known as ADSLguide.org.uk
The author of the above post is a thinkbroadband staff member. It may not constitute an official statement on behalf of thinkbroadband.
Standard User Vince730i
(regular) Fri 05-Apr-13 13:35:54
Print Post

Re: DSL Error Help


[re: 4M2] [link to this post]
 
Sorry. I did say that in my post, but didn't realise that they can't reset it from my home. I was going off what they both said about resetting my line - so I assumed that they must of triggered something at the exchange once the tests had been completed. Neither Engineer said they were going to the exchange after testing my line. Sorry for the confusion.
Standard User Vince730i
(regular) Fri 05-Apr-13 13:52:11
Print Post

Re: DSL Error Help


[re: 4M2] [link to this post]
 
Broadband State: Connected
Internet State: Connected
Time Connected: 2 days 01:33:25
Downstream Rate: 15852kbps
Upstream Rate: 1235kbps


Status
Configured Current
Line Status --- SHOWTIME
Link Type --- Fast Path
Operation Mode Automatic G992.5(ADSL2+)
Data Rate Information
Stream Type Actual Data Rate
Upstream 1235 (Kbps.)
Downstream 15852 (Kbps.)
Defect/Failure Indication
Operation Data Upstream Downstream
Noise Margin 5.9 dB 6.0 dB
Line Attenuation 17.6 dB 32.5 dB
Indicator Name Near End Indicator Far End Indicator
Output Power 12.3 dBm 0.0 dBm
Fast Path FEC Correction 0 0
Interleaved Path FEC Correction NA NA
Fast Path CRC Error 1443154 145
Interleaved Path CRC Error NA NA
Loss of Signal Defect 2 0
Fast Path HEC Error STR 5461786 136
Interleaved Path HEC Error NA NA
Error Seconds 48613 133
Statistics
Received Cells 49391932
Transmitted Cells 19947045
Standard User 4M2
(fountain of knowledge) Fri 05-Apr-13 14:00:17
Print Post

Re: DSL Error Help


[re: Vince730i] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by Vince730i:
Both OR Engineers did reset it at the exchange


Possibly best if we use the term "re-train" - guess you could check wheher your line was "retrained" after the most recent engineer's visit if you are still uncomfortable with the BB performance...
Standard User XRaySpeX
(eat-sleep-adslguide) Fri 05-Apr-13 14:06:29
Print Post

Re: DSL Error Help


[re: Vince730i] [link to this post]
 
Sync speeds are good but ES still ramping up + 2 LoS.

Have you tried swapping filters?

Time to start posting speed test results with the router stats, so we can see how these errors affect your actual throughput.

1999: Freeserve 48K Dial-Up => 2005: Wanadoo 1 Meg BB => 2007: Orange 2 Meg BB => 2008: Orange 8 Meg LLU => 2010: Orange 16 Meg LLU => 2011: Orange 20 Meg WBC
Standard User 4M2
(fountain of knowledge) Fri 05-Apr-13 14:30:23
Print Post

Re: DSL Error Help


[re: XRaySpeX] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by XRaySpeX:
Time to start posting speed test results with the router stats, so we can see how these errors affect your actual throughput.


Yep, BT speed tester results might be good since the ISP may have a record of those (?) or at least give them some serious consideration smile
Standard User Vince730i
(regular) Fri 05-Apr-13 21:32:01
Print Post

Re: DSL Error Help


[re: 4M2] [link to this post]
 
Well. I must thank you all for your help and advice and sorry for any confusion recently - also sorry for repeating myself smile

I have just had a very long call to EE's Fault Management Team who have finally agreed that there is a serious problem. When I quoted the HEC, CRC and ES's he told me "that's impossible!" So I logged into my router (using my phone) and took a screenshot (for future reference) and my ES's are at around 55,000 at this moment. Anyway, I am not in "re-train" at this moment and neither of the OR Engineers have been to the exchange. EE are "remotely" trying to repair the issues at the exchange and will call me back within 48 hours. It's funny as at 19:39 my speedtester showed Ping 197ms 11.47 D/L and 0.53 U/L, but at 19:37 it was Ping 98 0.34 D/L 0.50 U/L and its because of this that I called them.

They seem to think that they are "Ramming too much speed down my line" and this is causing the Errors. So thanks again for your advice. Without it I wouldn't of got this far and probably just left it to do what it was doing, but I will update as soon as I hear back from them smile
Standard User Vince730i
(regular) Fri 05-Apr-13 21:37:22
Print Post

Re: DSL Error Help


[re: XRaySpeX] [link to this post]
 
EE seem to think that "Far End errors are way to high" I don't know if they're acceptable or not to be honest. They said "We don't concentrate on Near End Errors, only Far End."

Nice smile


Just had this email from them. Considering they will call me between 9an and 9pm, I'm guessing me and my PC will just have to get along as best we can smile

Hello,

We have an update on your broadband fault; we'll be in contact to go through some more checks with you at the time slot you gave us when you logged your fault. Please can you be at your computer for the call.

You can track the progress of your fault within Your Account.

Best Regards

Customer Support

Edited by Vince730i (Fri 05-Apr-13 21:41:49)

Standard User 4M2
(fountain of knowledge) Fri 05-Apr-13 21:44:39
Print Post

Re: DSL Error Help


[re: Vince730i] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by Vince730i:
Anyway, I am not in "re-train" at this moment and neither of the OR Engineers have been to the exchange. EE are "remotely" trying to repair the issues at the exchange...

They seem to think that they are "Ramming too much speed down my line" and this is causing the errors.


Sounds like they will simply cap your downstream sync by sticking the SNRM at 12dB or something like that frown

They really are a complete waste of space...if they are aware of the issues then a SFI should be booked!
Standard User XRaySpeX
(eat-sleep-adslguide) Fri 05-Apr-13 23:05:05
Print Post

Re: DSL Error Help - EDITED


[re: Vince730i] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by Vince730i:
EE seem to think that "Far End errors are way to high" I don't know if they're acceptable or not to be honest. They said "We don't concentrate on Near End Errors, only Far End."
It's the Near End errors that are high; the Far End ones are minuscule by comparison, often 0. The LoS are always on Near End.

It's the Near End errors that are important; they relate to Downstream.

They are talking rubbish and must have mixed up their ends, anus about face frown.
EDIT: Or are viewing it from the exchange end.
In reply to a post by Vince730i:
They seem to think that they are "Ramming too much speed down my line" and this is causing the Errors.
Which contradicts "Far End".

1999: Freeserve 48K Dial-Up => 2005: Wanadoo 1 Meg BB => 2007: Orange 2 Meg BB => 2008: Orange 8 Meg LLU => 2010: Orange 16 Meg LLU => 2011: Orange 20 Meg WBC

Edited by XRaySpeX (Fri 05-Apr-13 23:11:53)

Standard User Vince730i
(regular) Fri 05-Apr-13 23:11:40
Print Post

Re: DSL Error Help


[re: 4M2] [link to this post]
 
Sounds like they will simply cap your downstream sync by sticking the SNRM at 12dB or something like that frown

They really are a complete waste of space...if they are aware of the issues then a SFI should be booked!

Funnily enough, I did say something very similar to them regarding how they will deal with this fault. I don't think they have any intentions of actuall investigating the root cause of the fault, but as I said before, they will just paint over it. It's sad, but that's the stage they're at.

I may be wrong with this next bit?

I mentioned to the Fault Manager that If my line can not support the speed and is stable at 4.5meg, when Fibre Optic is available from FTTC, would I be able to receive the quoted figures? He said "it would hold 30 to 60 meg just fine.) considering its the same copper cable as now, is that not some sort of a contradiction ? As I said, I may be wrong, but it seems slightly odd.
Standard User XRaySpeX
(eat-sleep-adslguide) Fri 05-Apr-13 23:16:15
Print Post

Re: DSL Error Help


[re: Vince730i] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by Vince730i:
considering its the same copper cable as now
Only as far as your local cab. The fibre replaces the copper cable from cab to exchange.

So, they are probably right. The BTw Availability Checker with give the best estimate for FTTC.

1999: Freeserve 48K Dial-Up => 2005: Wanadoo 1 Meg BB => 2007: Orange 2 Meg BB => 2008: Orange 8 Meg LLU => 2010: Orange 16 Meg LLU => 2011: Orange 20 Meg WBC
Standard User Vince730i
(regular) Fri 05-Apr-13 23:23:43
Print Post

Re: DSL Error Help - EDITED


[re: XRaySpeX] [link to this post]
 
Oh dear frown I'm getting the feeling that I'm a long way from being out of the woods yet?

I'm guessing they will do what 4M2 suggested? NM up to 12db and hope it stabilises my line enough to stop me moaning.

Is it worth me mentioning the confusion they (EE) are having with Near and Far End?

With FTTC, I'm guessing the technology is different and that's how the higher speeds can be achieved.
Although our exchange is "fibre ready" our street cabinet has not been upgraded - and OR think its not "commercially viable to upgrade it yet" so it's onwards and (hopefully) upwards with EE for now.
I may even get a direct line to the Fault Team soon smile

What I should of said is, although the existing copper wire from cabinet to my home would be shorter, would that mean it can cope with the higher FIbre speeds ?

Edited by Vince730i (Fri 05-Apr-13 23:38:20)

Standard User 4M2
(fountain of knowledge) Sat 06-Apr-13 00:25:10
Print Post

Re: DSL Error Help


[re: Vince730i] [link to this post]
 
Let's hope they do nothing for the time being other than perhaps switch you to interleaved, which might happen automatically anyway.

The fact that there may be problems with the copper pair between your NTE5 and the cabinet means they are talking absolute nonsense when they mentioned potential FTTC speeds on your current line.
Standard User RobertoS
(sensei) Sat 06-Apr-13 12:24:46
Print Post

Re: DSL Error Help - EDITED


[re: Vince730i] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by Vince730i:
What I should of said is, although the existing copper wire from cabinet to my home would be shorter
tongue
Err - no.

The copper wire from the cabinet to your home is unchanged. The wire from the cabinet to the exchange then only carries your voice traffic and is filtered at the FTTC cabinet. You do have a slight increase in the cabinet to home length as the signal effectively has to travel from the FTTC cabinet to the PCP to connect to the home copper. More detail.

My broadband basic info/help site - www.robertos.me.uk | Domains,website and mail hosting - Tsohost.
Connection - Plusnet UnLim Fibre (FTTC). Sync ~ 54.2/15.2Mbps @ 600m. - BQM

"Where talent is a dwarf, self-esteem is a giant." - Jean-Antoine Petit-Senn.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Allergy information: This post was manufactured in an environment where nuts are present. It may include traces of understatement, litotes and humour.
Standard User Vince730i
(regular) Sat 06-Apr-13 14:38:45
Print Post

Re: DSL Error Help


[re: Vince730i] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by Vince730i:
Sounds like they will simply cap your downstream sync by sticking the SNRM at 12dB or something like that frown

4M2.... It looks like you we're spot on with the NM!


Status
Configured Current
Line Status --- SHOWTIME
Link Type --- Fast Path
Operation Mode Automatic G992.1(G.DMT)
Data Rate Information
Stream Type Actual Data Rate
Upstream 1184 (Kbps.)
Downstream 8128 (Kbps.)
Defect/Failure Indication
Operation Data Upstream Downstream
Noise Margin 7.0 dB 13.3 dB
Line Attenuation 18.0 dB 29.5 dB
Indicator Name Near End Indicator Far End Indicator
Output Power 11.6 dBm 19.8 dBm
Fast Path FEC Correction 0 0
Interleaved Path FEC Correction NA NA
Fast Path CRC Error 1 0
Interleaved Path CRC Error NA NA
Loss of Signal Defect 5 0
Fast Path HEC Error STR 0 0
Interleaved Path HEC Error NA NA
Error Seconds 64841 197
Statistics
Received Cells 316006
Transmitted Cells 101667

INTERNET
Broadband Type: ADSL
Broadband State: Connected
Internet State: Connected
Time Connected: 00:10:35
Downstream Rate: 8128kbps
Upstream Rate: 1184kbps
Standard User XRaySpeX
(eat-sleep-adslguide) Sat 06-Apr-13 15:00:26
Print Post

Re: DSL Error Help


[re: Vince730i] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by Vince730i:
Operation Mode Automatic G992.1(G.DMT)
They've stuck you on ADSL1.

Does it work if you set ADSL Mode = ADSL2+ and then reboot?

1999: Freeserve 48K Dial-Up => 2005: Wanadoo 1 Meg BB => 2007: Orange 2 Meg BB => 2008: Orange 8 Meg LLU => 2010: Orange 16 Meg LLU => 2011: Orange 20 Meg WBC
Standard User Vince730i
(regular) Sat 06-Apr-13 15:17:02
Print Post

Re: DSL Error Help


[re: XRaySpeX] [link to this post]
 
I'm out again right now, but will give that a try when I get back smile

I hadn't even noticed that they seitched me from ADSL2 + to be honest.
Is there much difference between the two - as Errors seem to of stabilised and they are sending out another Router now. Also I still have a ping of 100ms (min) 204ms (max) so I'm unsure If there may still be an issue somewhere.
Standard User Vince730i
(regular) Sat 06-Apr-13 15:49:01
Print Post

Re: DSL Error Help


[re: XRaySpeX] [link to this post]
 
Just got in and noticed that the router was re-syncing. Checked the stats and its now on ADSL2+ and moved from Fast Path to Interleaved.

I'm guess I'm no in re-train ?

Here are the stats.


ADSL STATUS

This page shows information about your ADSL connection if applicable.

Status
Configured Current
Line Status --- SHOWTIME
Link Type --- Interleaved Path
Operation Mode Automatic G992.5(ADSL2+)
Data Rate Information
Stream Type Actual Data Rate
Upstream 1248 (Kbps.)
Downstream 15981 (Kbps.)
Defect/Failure Indication
Operation Data Upstream Downstream
Noise Margin 6.1 dB 6.1 dB
Line Attenuation 17.7 dB 32.5 dB
Indicator Name Near End Indicator Far End Indicator
Output Power 12.8 dBm 0.0 dBm
Fast Path FEC Correction NA NA
Interleaved Path FEC Correction 192 0
Fast Path CRC Error NA NA
Interleaved Path CRC Error 0 0
Loss of Signal Defect 6 0
Fast Path HEC Error STR NA NA
Interleaved Path HEC Error 0 0
Error Seconds 64858 197
Statistics
Received Cells 7644
Transmitted Cells 3985

Broadband Type: ADSL
Broadband State: Connected
Internet State: Connected
Time Connected: 00:03:03
Downstream Rate: 15981kbps
Upstream Rate: 1248kbps

Speed test is showing 50ms Ping 8.12 Down 0.66 Up.
Standard User 4M2
(fountain of knowledge) Sat 06-Apr-13 16:00:01
Print Post

Re: DSL Error Help


[re: Vince730i] [link to this post]
 
The difference between the downstream ADSL1 and ADSL2+ attenuations of 3dB looks fine, interleaving doesn't seem to have helped the error rates on ADSL2+ just yet...

Probably a good idea to start a new thread when you hook up the replacement router in the test socket smile
Standard User XRaySpeX
(eat-sleep-adslguide) Sat 06-Apr-13 16:05:12
Print Post

Re: DSL Error Help


[re: Vince730i] [link to this post]
 
You don't retrain just cuz it re-synced. You need deliberate action from ISP for that.

1999: Freeserve 48K Dial-Up => 2005: Wanadoo 1 Meg BB => 2007: Orange 2 Meg BB => 2008: Orange 8 Meg LLU => 2010: Orange 16 Meg LLU => 2011: Orange 20 Meg WBC
Standard User Vince730i
(regular) Sat 06-Apr-13 16:16:34
Print Post

Re: DSL Error Help


[re: XRaySpeX] [link to this post]
 
I'm off to give them a call. D/L speed about 10 mins ago was 0.07. 2 mins later D/L was 13.6 I just don't get it.
Standard User 4M2
(fountain of knowledge) Sat 06-Apr-13 16:27:52
Print Post

Re: DSL Error Help *DELETED*


[re: XRaySpeX] [link to this post]
 
Post deleted by 4M2
Standard User 4M2
(fountain of knowledge) Sat 06-Apr-13 16:37:04
Print Post

Re: DSL Error Help


[re: Vince730i] [link to this post]
 
Just out of interest: what AV/firewall software are you running when testing for pings and throughput speeds? And, sorry you may have answered this before, are you using an ethernt wired connection from the pc to the router or a wireless connection?
Standard User Vince730i
(regular) Sat 06-Apr-13 16:48:14
Print Post

Re: DSL Error Help


[re: 4M2] [link to this post]
 
I always use Ethernet connection on the PC and I'm using Avast AV at the moment.

I've just taken a look at the stats again and are the Interleaved Errors high already - or is it normal?

I took it for granted that re-train would be triggered when the exchange was made aware of a problem like in this case.

Status
Configured Current
Line Status --- SHOWTIME
Link Type --- Interleaved Path
Operation Mode Automatic G992.5(ADSL2+)
Data Rate Information
Stream Type Actual Data Rate
Upstream 1248 (Kbps.)
Downstream 15981 (Kbps.)
Defect/Failure Indication
Operation Data Upstream Downstream
Noise Margin 6.1 dB 5.1 dB
Line Attenuation 17.7 dB 32.5 dB
Indicator Name Near End Indicator Far End Indicator
Output Power 12.8 dBm 0.0 dBm
Fast Path FEC Correction NA NA
Interleaved Path FEC Correction 7846975 0
Fast Path CRC Error NA NA
Interleaved Path CRC Error 37003 0
Loss of Signal Defect 6 0
Fast Path HEC Error STR NA NA
Interleaved Path HEC Error 496768 0
Error Seconds 65910 197
Statistics
Received Cells 9946248
Transmitted Cells 7509886
Standard User 4M2
(fountain of knowledge) Sat 06-Apr-13 17:05:32
Print Post

Re: DSL Error Help


[re: Vince730i] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by Vince730i:
I always use Ethernet connection on the PC and I'm using Avast AV at the moment.

I've just taken a look at the stats again and are the Interleaved Errors high already - or is it normal?

Interleaved Path FEC Correction 7846975 0
Fast Path CRC Error NA NA
Interleaved Path CRC Error 37003 0
Loss of Signal Defect 6 0
Fast Path HEC Error STR NA NA
Interleaved Path HEC Error 496768 0
Error Seconds 65910 197


Just wanted to confirm that you were using ethernet, Avast AV should be fine - if you were using Kaspersky Internet Security then that could explain some latency and throughput anomalies.

Errors and LoS still don't look that promising, FEC corrections may be quite high (I usually get no more than 1,000,000 per 24 hours) but others may be better able to comment about that - i.e. interleaving depth etc.

Let's see what happens when you get the new router smile
Standard User XRaySpeX
(eat-sleep-adslguide) Sat 06-Apr-13 17:15:24
Print Post

Re: DSL Error Help


[re: Vince730i] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by Vince730i:
I've just taken a look at the stats again and are the Interleaved Errors high already - or is it normal?
Interleaved ES should be much lower than Fast ES.

But can you rely on those error counts if you didn't reboot when it re-sync? You are just carrying forward counts from before the re-sync.

1999: Freeserve 48K Dial-Up => 2005: Wanadoo 1 Meg BB => 2007: Orange 2 Meg BB => 2008: Orange 8 Meg LLU => 2010: Orange 16 Meg LLU => 2011: Orange 20 Meg WBC
Standard User Vince730i
(regular) Sat 06-Apr-13 17:56:17
Print Post

Re: DSL Error Help


[re: XRaySpeX] [link to this post]
 
Fully understated what you're saying, but I can look back through what I've copied and pasted to get a rough idea of how much the ES's have gone up. Here are the stats from about 5 minutes ago.


ADSL STATUS

This page shows information about your ADSL connection if applicable.

Status
Configured Current
Line Status --- SHOWTIME
Link Type --- Interleaved Path
Operation Mode Automatic G992.5(ADSL2+)
Data Rate Information
Stream Type Actual Data Rate
Upstream 1248 (Kbps.)
Downstream 15981 (Kbps.)
Defect/Failure Indication
Operation Data Upstream Downstream
Noise Margin 6.1 dB 6.1 dB
Line Attenuation 17.7 dB 32.5 dB
Indicator Name Near End Indicator Far End Indicator
Output Power 12.8 dBm 0.0 dBm
Fast Path FEC Correction NA NA
Interleaved Path FEC Correction 7957032 13
Fast Path CRC Error NA NA
Interleaved Path CRC Error 37256 0
Loss of Signal Defect 6 0
Fast Path HEC Error STR NA NA
Interleaved Path HEC Error 499373 0
Error Seconds 65988 197
Statistics
Received Cells 14309706
Transmitted Cells 8756940

INTERNET
Broadband Type: ADSL
Broadband State: Connected
Internet State: Connected
Time Connected: 02:09:39
Downstream Rate: 15981kbps
Upstream Rate: 1248kbps

ES's have risen around 1,130 since switching to ADSL2+ Interleaved.

Edited by Vince730i (Sat 06-Apr-13 18:06:06)

Standard User Vince730i
(regular) Sat 06-Apr-13 21:33:15
Print Post

Re: DSL Error Help


[re: 4M2] [link to this post]
 
Something I have found interesting and strange, since being on interleaved, whenever I turn my Xbox on and it's signing in, my D/L speed dropped from over 13.2 right down to 0.07. This used to happen when I was on Interleaved and thought it was due to the original Re-training at the point of my BB being activated. This never happened on fast path, but to make sue its not the Xbox, I'm going to try it with my spare one. It's connected via Ethernet also, but can imagine why it should wipe out so much of my D/L speed.
Standard User 4M2
(fountain of knowledge) Sat 06-Apr-13 22:13:48
Print Post

Re: DSL Error Help


[re: Vince730i] [link to this post]
 
Sorry don't know anything about Xbox but certainly, for example, with the Windows XP OS ADSL2+ download speeds can be seriously reduced if the MTU, TCP Receive Window, etc. settings are not optimised...

Edit: Don't use it for tweaking, unless it's for XP, but you may find the results from this site http://www.dslreports.com/tweaks interesting smile

Edited by 4M2 (Sat 06-Apr-13 22:20:59)

Standard User Vince730i
(regular) Sat 06-Apr-13 23:03:53
Print Post

Re: DSL Error Help


[re: 4M2] [link to this post]
 
Thanks smile I just mentioned it as I thought it was a bit strange. I'm still not convinced that interleaved has done me any favours and I'm hoping that another Router and new micro filter will rule out that as the cause. The line has been checked twice, faceplate removed and plugged directly into the master socket hasn't seem to of made any difference - so router is all that's left I think smile
Standard User 4M2
(fountain of knowledge) Sun 07-Apr-13 00:12:21
Print Post

Re: DSL Error Help


[re: Vince730i] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by Vince730i:
I'm still not convinced that interleaved has done me any favours and I'm hoping that another Router and new micro filter will rule out that as the cause. The line has been checked twice, faceplate removed and plugged directly into the master socket hasn't seem to of made any difference - so router is all that's left I think smile


See how you get on with the new router/ADSL lead/micro filter in the test socket, if no improvement then an OR SFI will be needed to check the line from the test socket through to the exchange - if that is the case please don't accept any prevarication from the ISP.
Standard User Zarjaz
(knowledge is power) Sun 07-Apr-13 08:12:23
Print Post

Re: DSL Error Help


[re: 4M2] [link to this post]
 
Both OR Engineers did reset it at the exchange

Possibly best if we use the term "re-train" - guess you could check wheher your line was "retrained" after the most recent engineer's visit if you are still uncomfortable with the BB performance...


Sounds suspiciously as though the engineers are doing resets. Using a remote access tool have the the profile wiped back to the 'out of the box' setting of 6db/fastpath.

There is of course no point in doing this unless they have actually found and resolved an issue, because it'll all just go Pete Tong again.

Not even sure why they are doing this, their access to this system is supposed to be for BB Boost tasks only, and the OP's CP don't supply boost visits, just SFI's.

Standard User 4M2
(fountain of knowledge) Sun 07-Apr-13 11:11:08
Print Post

Re: DSL Error Help


[re: Zarjaz] [link to this post]
 
Not quite sure what the OR guys were doing - they may have only been tasked with a voice fault. And there has been some confusion about the 10 day stabilisation ("training") period(s) and DSL reset(s), stemming from information provided by perhaps the OR guys and certainly the ISP...
Standard User Vince730i
(regular) Sun 07-Apr-13 12:12:27
Print Post

Re: DSL Error Help


[re: 4M2] [link to this post]
 
The first OR Engineer was sent out just to test the line as far as I know. The second engineer was sent out for a BB fault which is odd as I had reported to EE That I had a lot of noise on my line.

I've checked the stats again today and I've had 2 re-syncs during the night. The last one being at 4am, but I did reboot the router a oil 11pm to see if that would cure the Xbox problem.

Status
Configured Current
Line Status --- SHOWTIME
Link Type --- Interleaved Path
Operation Mode Automatic G992.5(ADSL2+)
Data Rate Information
Stream Type Actual Data Rate
Upstream 1248 (Kbps.)
Downstream 14702 (Kbps.)
Defect/Failure Indication
Operation Data Upstream Downstream
Noise Margin 5.8 dB 8.2 dB
Line Attenuation 17.7 dB 32.5 dB
Indicator Name Near End Indicator Far End Indicator
Output Power 12.8 dBm 0.0 dBm
Fast Path FEC Correction NA NA
Interleaved Path FEC Correction 1879839 11
Fast Path CRC Error NA NA
Interleaved Path CRC Error 1598 1
Loss of Signal Defect 6 0
Fast Path HEC Error STR NA NA
Interleaved Path HEC Error 9008 1
Error Seconds 1225 1
Statistics
Received Cells 1949614
Transmitted Cells 295561
Standard User Vince730i
(regular) Sun 07-Apr-13 12:24:18
Print Post

Re: DSL Error Help


[re: Zarjaz] [link to this post]
 
I've spoke too EE yesterday to try and clear up some confusion regarding the re-training of my line and they say that the only time I've been in re-train was on the 22nd of Feb this year when my BB was activated.

During both of the engineer visits, both guys told me that "their tests would trigger stabilisation."
It wasn't until I came on here and found out that my ISP has to request this to happen and it's not down to the Engineers.

Through thinking that I was in re-train so often, I put my fluctuating speeds down to that - so I was a bit shocked to find that this wasn't why.

I have absolutely no idea what has happened since switching from Sky to EE, but I'm seriously considering going back. I never had this many problems in 7 years with Sky.
Standard User 4M2
(fountain of knowledge) Sun 07-Apr-13 12:42:50
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Re: DSL Error Help


[re: Vince730i] [link to this post]
 
The fact they you didn't mention that either of the OR engineers were SFI's suggested they may have come to investigate a voice fault since at that time it did appear that perhaps the ADSL frequencies were causing problems with voice and vice versa - hence a filtered faceplate was fitted.

Downstream sync time noise margin has possibly increased to ~9dB hence a slight reduction is sync speed - errors since 11pm last night are probably excessive and may have caused the couple of resyncs...

Let's hope the DSL doesn't drop again at any inconvenient moments today smile
Standard User Zarjaz
(knowledge is power) Sun 07-Apr-13 12:52:02
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Re: DSL Error Help


[re: Vince730i] [link to this post]
 
It wasn't until I came on here and found out that my ISP has to request this to happen and it's not down to the Engineers.

That's not entirely correct. Openreach engineers CAN do resets via the WOOSH test system. Also an automatic reset will be done when an SFI visit is closed with certain clear codes, for instance a lift and shift has been done.

Standard User Vince730i
(regular) Sun 07-Apr-13 12:53:09
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Re: DSL Error Help


[re: 4M2] [link to this post]
 
Thanks for the link. I missed your post yesterday smile
Standard User 4M2
(fountain of knowledge) Sun 07-Apr-13 12:53:51
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Re: DSL Error Help


[re: Vince730i] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by Vince730i:
I have absolutely no idea what has happened since switching from Sky to EE, but I'm seriously considering going back. I never had this many problems in 7 years with Sky.


Sky was probably LLU, EE (Orange/BT) is 21CN WBC with all the associated 10 day testing periods, IP Profiles and stuff...
Standard User 4M2
(fountain of knowledge) Sun 07-Apr-13 13:10:32
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Re: DSL Error Help


[re: Zarjaz] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by Zarjaz:
Openreach engineers CAN do resets via the WOOSH test system. Also an automatic reset will be done when an SFI visit is closed with certain clear codes, for instance a lift and shift has been done.


That's interesting about the WOOSH test system smile

OP stated that the OR guys didn't go to the exchange and perhaps a lift and shift was not done? Certain SFI clear codes certainly are an interesting possibility...

Can all this be done without specific authority from the ISP, or is a SFI given a free hand?
Standard User Vince730i
(regular) Sun 07-Apr-13 13:10:47
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Re: DSL Error Help


[re: Zarjaz] [link to this post]
 
The second OR Engineer said that the first one that came out was probably sent just to check the line as he hadn't checked the wiring to the pole. He asked me if the first Engineer had ladders on his van as this indicates what he was sent out for. The second Engineer was sent out for a BB fault.

I think EE are now doing some kind of elimination process as they want me to wait for the replacement router to arrive (another 5 days) and then monitor my BB for a further 10.

What annoys me about EE (and I suspect it's done to make them look efficient) but as soon as an Engineer has visited they call and do a line test. Everything comes back fine - so they close the fault.

This is the 4th time they have opened a fault now, so I guess it will be closed once the replacement router arrives and opened up again a week later. It's getting a bit frustrating and I'm glad the phone calls to EE are free smile
Standard User 4M2
(fountain of knowledge) Sun 07-Apr-13 13:24:12
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Re: DSL Error Help


[re: Vince730i] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by Vince730i:
The second OR Engineer said that the first one that came out was probably sent just to check the line as he hadn't checked the wiring to the pole. He asked me if the first Engineer had ladders on his van as this indicates what he was sent out for. The second Engineer was sent out for a BB fault.


Second engineer may have done a lift and shift at the exchange which might explain the resync and improved BB performance a short time after his visit - the ISP may not have been aware of that when you made your enquiries...

Edit: in fact at one point I think the ISP people mentioned that there might be a fault at the exchange.

Edited by 4M2 (Sun 07-Apr-13 13:30:31)

Standard User Zarjaz
(knowledge is power) Sun 07-Apr-13 13:33:59
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Re: DSL Error Help


[re: 4M2] [link to this post]
 
Can all this be done without specific authority from the ISP, or is a SFI given a free hand?

Yes. The general purpose is so that the engineer can look at the myriad of different data the system is storing about a BT Wholesale based line, and in some cases, where additional access is granted, at a GEA service also.

Administrator MrSaffron
(staff) Sun 07-Apr-13 13:57:58
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Closed due to size


[re: Vince730i] [link to this post]
 
The old thread was getting somewhat massive, so if there are any subthreads that need to continue start a new thread with a link back to the post you are replying to.

Andrew Ferguson, andrew@thinkbroadband.com
www.thinkbroadband.com - formerly known as ADSLguide.org.uk
The author of the above post is a thinkbroadband staff member. It may not constitute an official statement on behalf of thinkbroadband.
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