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Standard User M100
(regular) Mon 31-Oct-16 18:52:12
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Double filters affecting broadband?


[link to this post]
 
Openreach installed a new NTE5 a few months back (not the latest screwless one) together with an iplate and lower faceplate. All kit was new and straight out of sealed bags

The router is connected to the upper socket on the iplate

There is a fixed phone variously connected ether direct to the lower faceplate or via a microfilter plugged into the lower faceplate. I say variously because 99% of the time the entire installation is plugged into the test socket awaiting yet another openreach visit. The screwheads so worn it's a wonder I can still use them.

Despite two weeks of uninterrupted broadband (first time I've had a even vaguely usable connection since May this year) Sky are claiming that having a microfilter to connect my phone will affect the broadband leading to an unstable connection. They are saying this is why the broadband failed again today

Stats when good are 9500MBps down, 800k Up, attenuation 46dB down 29dB up, Nosie margin 2.6dB down 9dB up

When 'faulty' I get an intermittent crackly line for voice and the orange light on the SR102 router. This orange light situation can persist for hours (around 6 hours today)

Failures are often 'fixed' during the call to 'customer services' by sky doing something at their end, that happened today yet they blame my use of filters (despite at least 8 openreach visits by voice engineers, broadband engineers, and a Sky engineer, a line test showing unbalanced capacitance a leg to ground and b leg to ground, and two discontinuities on a TDR situated at joint boxes between me and the cabinet) Oh and a dig to fix a faulty cable that might have just been repaired, put in a plastic bag, sealed with a wrap of insulation tape and directly buried in soil in a grass verge.

Given that with the orignal non filtered faceplate you'd install microfilters on each socket with a phone can a microfilter and a filtered faceplate genuinely affect broadband stability?

Edited by M100 (Mon 31-Oct-16 18:52:54)

Administrator MrSaffron
(staff) Mon 31-Oct-16 19:08:00
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Re: Double filters affecting broadband?


[re: M100] [link to this post]
 
Put simply the line is being pushed too hard and if you want stability it needs the DSLAM operator (Sky if its LLU) to increase target noise margin to 6dB or 9dB)

A filter is NOT needed if you have an interstitial filter, but adding one should not cause any problems, other than if doing things like plugging and unplugging kit there is always the risk of creating an oddity that affects the signal, i.e. broadband does not enjoy being fiddled with all the time.

On the faulty - if when next time its faulty you unplug all the broadband kit including filters and just put a corded phone into the test socket and its still crackly then you have a simple voice fault and report it as such.

The author of the above post is a thinkbroadband staff member. It may not constitute an official statement on behalf of thinkbroadband.
Standard User M100
(regular) Mon 31-Oct-16 20:13:51
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Re: Double filters affecting broadband?


[re: MrSaffron] [link to this post]
 
Sky set the target noise margin to 9dB and 6dB in the past with no improvement in stability. The line has worked fine at around 7-8.5MBps for many years with a number of suppliers with line parameters around that with uptimes in the 1000 hour + region.

This latest 2 week period of stability (until today) 'just happened' Nothing changed here at all.

It's been previously reported as a voice fault on a number of occasions, tests by openreach here often show no fault, or as when the TDR indicated issues at the exact location of the chambers it gets passed to someone with 'underground training' and then precisely nothing happens. Another week comes, spend an hour on the phone to Sky unplugging things and going through the exact same routine, another half day off work for an openreach visit, rinse and repeat.

I know for a fact one chamber on the route to the cabinet has not been lifted this year as the grass growing part way across the lid would make any access obvious.

The double filter thing just confirmed what I thought. So much for the 'experts' at Sky.

I even had them today saying I need to change wifi channel number despite the majority of usage being via a wired connection

Still convinced their kit at the exchange has a fault.


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Standard User Zarjaz
(eat-sleep-adslguide) Mon 31-Oct-16 21:43:45
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Re: Double filters affecting broadband?


[re: MrSaffron] [link to this post]
 
Put simply the line is being pushed too hard and if you want stability it needs the DSLAM operator (Sky if its LLU) to increase target noise margin to 6dB or 9dB)

Completely agree ....... unless of course this is a REIN issue which is forcing the SNR down, unusual for Sky to make it so low.

Standard User BatBoy
(sensei) Mon 31-Oct-16 21:46:07
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Re: Double filters affecting broadband?


[re: M100] [link to this post]
 
Why do you have it double-filtered?

Do you have any phone extensions?
Standard User Zarjaz
(eat-sleep-adslguide) Mon 31-Oct-16 21:46:59
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Re: Double filters affecting broadband?


[re: BatBoy] [link to this post]
 
Good point. As it sounds as if it has no purpose.

Standard User M100
(regular) Mon 31-Oct-16 22:37:05
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Re: Double filters affecting broadband?


[re: BatBoy] [link to this post]
 
It was double filtered because that's just how it was left after screwing the NTE5 back together for the <insert very large number> time pending Sky 'customer services' calling me back a week or two ago (which they failed to do) The filter was on the end of the phone cord after being in the test socket and it just got plugged into the bottom of faceplate.

No extensions or extension wiring is connected (Some time ago Sky wanted to blame that too even though the voice call quality was barely enough to make out speech at the other end when connected to the test socket)

Multiple known good fixed phones have been tried in the test socket

I would suspect the NTE5 is maybe coming to the end of its service life with regards to contact resistance the number of times it's been dismantled.

99% of the time no phone is connected as we've effectively resorted to using a mobile instead given the unreliability of the landline.

Had everything mains powered in the house bar the fridge freezer and the router switched off for very extended periods with no change to broadband availability.

Gone round with an AM radio on 612kHz and nothing particulary noisy. There are no mobile masts within half a mile, no radio amateurs, no overhead wires, no one welding, no solar panel inverters nearby.

Route to the cabinet is all underground, using copper, 450m to cab via three chambers, two 'repairs' on the pairs one from around 4 years ago, one from May 2016, with somewhere around 3 - 4km to the exchange.
Standard User RobertoS
(elder) Mon 31-Oct-16 22:45:48
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Re: Double filters affecting broadband?


[re: M100] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by M100:
99% of the time no phone is connected as we've effectively resorted to using a mobile instead given the unreliability of the landline.
So the problem is really a phone fault? Or is the phone line fine if the modem/router is turned off?

Re the 14 days stability, that could well be somebody else with a duff installation has been on holiday for that period, with their kit switched off.

Kindness isn't going to cure the world of all its awfulness but it's a good place to begin. Daisy Ridley.
My broadband basic info/help site - www.robertos.me.uk. Domains, site and mail hosting - Tsohost.
Connection - AAISP Home::1 80/20. Sync 57825/13835kbps @ 600m. - BQM
Standard User eckiedoo
(fountain of knowledge) Tue 01-Nov-16 03:08:43
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Re: Double filters affecting broadband?


[re: M100] [link to this post]
 
I have a some-what similar set-up of double filters.

My NTE is an ancient simple one, one socket, no filters per se.

The original phone wiring had "groen like topsy", starting about 1972, when it was two socket extensions, "J" type possibly, but very similar to the four-ring plugs & sockets used on operator head-sets.

Other extensions and updates were added over the years.

So it was an existing phone extension that was pressed into service for Broadband, with ADSL filters at each of the connected items including the modem.

Upgrading to VDSL in June 2014, apart from changing from the ADSL splitter at the modem, to a VDSL one, all others remained as-was.

More recently, I replaced the modem phone extension, with a Cat 6 cable, with a VDSL splitter in to the ancient NTE, plugging all of the other extensions, grouped together, in to the Phone outlet of that VDSL splitter.

I left all of the other ADSL splitters in situ at each of the other items, so in effect, they all have two splitters in series, the one common one at the NTE plus each individual one.

Having effectively the two splitters in series on the phone side, does not appear to have any adverse effects on their operation, two corded sets, two cordless sets with separate base units, SKY+ Box etc.

Over the whole Broadband era, my phone line, internal and external has been "quiet" in terms of the QLT.

I have a 40/10 contract; and doing a BTW test just before coming to this forum, I got 39.12 Mbps Down, 8.9 Mbps Up.

About a week back, incredibly the BTW Test showed about 102 Mbps (screen-captured!), with up to about 44Mbps not being uncommon.

Otherwise it is generally about 37 Mbps.

------

Keep in mind that the Modem/ADSL/VDSL side of the splitters is actually "straight-through", only the PHONE side normally has a High Frequency Reject Filter, so that the LF and DC of normal phone equipment can get through; but not the HF of Broadband.

Your D & E sides, appear to be similar to ours, underground etc, 250 M to the PCP, plus another 50 M to the FTTC. The original total D+E lengths to the exchange came to 1,286 Metres.
Standard User eckiedoo
(fountain of knowledge) Tue 01-Nov-16 07:41:10
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Re: Double filters affecting broadband?


[re: M100] [link to this post]
 
I should have mentioned that back in the Dial-Up days of yore, we did have noises on the line.

The POT/BT lad that came out, remade all of the relevant joints in the PCP, checked everything in the house etc.

None of this work cured the problem.

Scratching his head, he pulled out a diagram, studied it etc; and then said it appeared that there was a small jointing box some distance away, in an unexpected direction.

We walked along the street, to find this small, innocuous box, on the foundation wall of a near-neighbour's house, geographically about 60 Metres away in a straight line, so longer in practice.

The box itself is about 15 inches high, by 2.5 inches wide and 2 inches depth.

Grey casting with (probably) PO on it.

I have seen a very similar casting used for electricity cables.

He opened it up, remade all the appropriate joints, back to my house.

Clean line.

The PCP is almost directly across the road from my house, about 40 Metres, so why the U/G phone line of 1967, greenfield site, should take a totally unexpected route ...

Compounded by the 2013/2014 FTTC being only 10 M from my house - when its doors are open, I can see inside it from the lounge window.

So the VDSL distance total is about 300 Metres, compared to an otherwise possible of about 100 M.

===========

It pays to have an accurate or good idea of precise routings.
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