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Standard User andyfr
(member) Thu 15-Jun-17 18:28:03
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ADSLNation faceplate - Faulty?


[link to this post]
 
I have had an ADSLNation faceplate for 9 years. I recently have been having problems with slow speed and dropped connections. I changed ISP from Timico to IDNet, and for the first few weeks I was getting the same speed as before, 5.5Mbps, then I started having lots of RX and TX CRC errors and thought it could be the router so bought a new Draytek 2860. I don't get as many errors but have still be getting dropped connections overnight and the speed is now 3.5Mbps.

IDNet support asked the wholesalers to reset the line to lower the margins and increase the connection speeds which put the line in training mode. This seemed to improve things initially but one weekend the connection kept dropping every few minutes, I rebooted the router and that helped the frequent disconnections but the speed was still slow.

After contacting support they said the SNR margin looked a little high on the line so sent a request to the wholesalers to get this reset to a lower level. This looked good for a few days and then has gradually got worse. We are on a rural exchange - Tomatin - and about 3 miles from it.

I connect via Ethernet and wondered if maybe the faceplate could be faulty, can these suddenly cause these types of issues?

Regards

Andyfr
Standard User Michael_Chare
(fountain of knowledge) Thu 15-Jun-17 19:35:22
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Re: ADSLNation faceplate - Faulty?


[re: andyfr] [link to this post]
 
What happens if you connect your router to the internal BT Test socket using a filter? If you have phone extensions, you may then be able to connect the ADSLNation face plate to the filter, perhaps using a telephone extension lead as a spacer. (To see if your phones are working as a temporary measure)

Michael Chare
Standard User RobertoS
(elder) Thu 15-Jun-17 19:35:44
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Re: ADSLNation faceplate - Faulty?


[re: andyfr] [link to this post]
 
Reboot the modem/router, then take and save somewhere a reading of the line stats from it. Then disconnect it from the faceplate, remove the faceplate and plug a dangly filter into the test socket that the faceplate plugged into, then reconnect through that. No need to reboot it.

Immediately take the stats again and compare. Preferably post both sets here.

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Connection - AAISP Home::1 80/20. Sync 69564/12780Kbps @ 600m. BQMs - IPv4 & IPv6


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Administrator MrSaffron
(staff) Thu 15-Jun-17 19:44:19
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Re: ADSLNation faceplate - Faulty?


[re: andyfr] [link to this post]
 
The capacitors may fall out of spec over time, or there was a lightning event enough to damage faceplate but not kill broadband modem.

So yes they can fail

Has yours? Testing at test socket with a microfilter that you don't normally use will show if its the faceplate

The author of the above post is a thinkbroadband staff member. It may not constitute an official statement on behalf of thinkbroadband.
Standard User andyfr
(member) Thu 15-Jun-17 20:30:18
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Re: ADSLNation faceplate - Faulty?


[re: MrSaffron] [link to this post]
 
Thanks for the replies all.

I haven't tried a filter at the master socket so I will give that a try. The faceplate is connected so that the extensions don't need filters, I assume I will have to put filters on the extensions if I go directly into the master socket.

Andyfr
Administrator MrSaffron
(staff) Thu 15-Jun-17 22:05:58
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Re: ADSLNation faceplate - Faulty?


[re: andyfr] [link to this post]
 
Only need to test with the test socket long enough to get the data from the modem, and then report back.

So removing the faceplate should disconnect the extensions temporarily

The author of the above post is a thinkbroadband staff member. It may not constitute an official statement on behalf of thinkbroadband.
Standard User meditator
(fountain of knowledge) Fri 16-Jun-17 11:13:58
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Re: ADSLNation faceplate - Faulty?


[re: andyfr] [link to this post]
 
Hi andyfr,

I'm not sure if my comments will help but I myself have used both the Clarity faceplate and the ADSL Nation faceplate at different times, over a period of 5 - 7 years, and I came to the conclusion just a few years ago that the Clarity faceplate filter was more electrically robust than the ADSL Nation one, and so opted to use the Clarity. I've subsequently used the Clarity, which uses a filter design that's quite different to the ADSL Nation, for some years now without a single problem. I started off with it when I was on ADSL Max; it's currently in use on VDSL, and gives truly excellent results.

Way back, I acquired the ADSL Nation first of all. Before ever putting it, or later the Clarity, into use I took it apart to find out what sort of filtering was incorporated and was quite surprised when I found that the ADSL Nation used transistors in amongst the chokes and capacitors. So, as a retired electronics professional, I felt that this was rather risky on the reliability front, given that the line could be subject to voltage surges. Even though the transistors may have been spec'd at over 50v Vce each, this may still not have been good enough to cope with perhaps an odd, very high transient. So, I decided to stop using the ADSL Nation, and I bought and fitted a Clarity instead, which employs a totally passive filter (and therefore no transistors).

Now, I'm not necessarily saying that that's your problem in this instance. As has rightly been stated, capacitors can, in time, become electrically leaky. Indeed, even some might have their working voltage exceeded on occasions, which clearly won't do them much good. Another cause could be a solder joint on the little printed-circuit board that's become dry.

In your shoes, I'd continue looking for the source of the problem elsewhere first. But if that yields no result, I'd recommend you acquire and fit a Clarity faceplate filter instead. It'll give you the same sort of termination options as with the ADSL Nation. The two faceplates differ in external shape; whereas the ADSL Nation has a steep wedge-shaped upper section, the Clarity's is bullnosed. I seem to recall that the Clarity cost much the same as the ADSL Nation but was marketed by just one particular e-retailer here in the UK (curiously, with the URL 'clarity.it' but despatched from Scotland), but I'm not sure whether they're still in business; you'd need to google around for one.

Postscript: I just tried googling for it myself, without success, but have just found this, which looks remarkably like the Clarity one and in all probability is the self same one:
https://www.amazon.co.uk/BT-Telephone-Broadband-Filt...

Edited by meditator (Fri 16-Jun-17 11:44:38)

Standard User andyfr
(member) Fri 16-Jun-17 11:22:22
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Re: ADSLNation faceplate - Faulty?


[re: meditator] [link to this post]
 
Hi Mediator

Thank you for your reply. I'm in the middle of decorating at the minute so haven't had a chance to do the master socket test to see if the faceplate is at fault.

Regards

Andyfr
Standard User meditator
(fountain of knowledge) Fri 16-Jun-17 13:38:32
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Re: ADSLNation faceplate - Faulty?


[re: andyfr] [link to this post]
 
Bear in mind also that if, all those years ago, you made use of the IDC-type connections on the back of the faceplate to extend the cable connection further into the house and those IDC connections weren't done by you to a good standard, then oxidation of the connections may have set in over time, or even the connections come loose, and may be causing some odd things to occur. If, in the end, you get yourself a brand new Clarity faceplate do ensure that, if you extend, you use the correct tool for doing so and you also use the correct sort of extension cable with solid pairs of the correct diameter.

Incidentally, regarding my forum name, it's "meditator", not "mediator". (They happen to mean two completely different things).
Standard User 4M2
(knowledge is power) Fri 16-Jun-17 13:44:25
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Re: ADSLNation faceplate - Faulty?


[re: meditator] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by meditator:
Way back, I acquired the ADSL Nation first of all. Before ever putting it, or later the Clarity, into use I took it apart to find out what sort of filtering was incorporated and was quite surprised when I found that the ADSL Nation used transistors in amongst the chokes and capacitors. So, as a retired electronics professional, I felt that this was rather risky on the reliability front, given that the line could be subject to voltage surges. Even though the transistors may have been spec'd at over 50v Vce each, this may still not have been good enough to cope with perhaps an odd, very high transient. So, I decided to stop using the ADSL Nation, and I bought and fitted a Clarity instead, which employs a totally passive filter (and therefore no transistors).


Older NTE5A's have surge protection, newer ones don't (apparently it can cause issues with a VDSL2 signal but not the ADSL signals) so its probably good practice not to use an ADSL Nation plate on a newer NTE5A?
Standard User andyfr
(member) Fri 16-Jun-17 15:35:16
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Re: ADSLNation faceplate - Faulty?


[re: meditator] [link to this post]
 
Hi Meditator (Sorry about the wrong name)

That's a good point, I will check the wiring. I'm pretty sure I used a Krone tool, I certainly do now.

Andyfr
Standard User andyfr
(member) Mon 19-Jun-17 09:42:51
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Re: ADSLNation faceplate - Faulty?


[re: RobertoS] [link to this post]
 
Okay, here are the readings:

With ADSLNation faceplate:

adsl status
--------------------------- ATU-R Info (hw: annex A, f/w: annex A) -----------
Running Mode : G.dmt Annex A State : SHOWTIME
DS Actual Rate : 4928000 bps US Actual Rate : 448000 bps
DS Attainable Rate : 5088000 bps US Attainable Rate : 1172000 bps
DS Path Mode : Interleave US Path Mode : Interleave
DS Interleave Depth : 32 US Interleave Depth : 4
NE Current Attenuation : 50 dB Cur SNR Margin : 9 dB
DS actual PSD : 19. 9 dB US actual PSD : 12. 3 dB
NE Rcvd Cells : 936 NE Xmitted Cells : 454
NE CRC Count : 1 FE CRC Count : 0
NE ES Count : 1 FE ES Count : 0
Xdsl Reset Times : 0 Xdsl Link Times : 1
ITU Version[0] : b5004946 ITU Version[1] : 544e0000
ADSL Firmware Version : 05-07-02-08-00-01
Power Management Mode : DSL_G997_PMS_L0
Test Mode : DISABLE
-------------------------------- ATU-C Info ---------------------------------
Far Current Attenuation : 26 dB Far SNR Margin : 23 dB
CO ITU Version[0] : b5005453 CO ITU Version[1] : 54430000
DSLAM CHIPSET VENDOR : < TSTC >



Into test socket:

adsl status
--------------------------- ATU-R Info (hw: annex A, f/w: annex A) -----------
Running Mode : G.dmt Annex A State : SHOWTIME
DS Actual Rate : 4704000 bps US Actual Rate : 448000 bps
DS Attainable Rate : 4896000 bps US Attainable Rate : 1140000 bps
DS Path Mode : Interleave US Path Mode : Interleave
DS Interleave Depth : 32 US Interleave Depth : 4
NE Current Attenuation : 50 dB Cur SNR Margin : 9 dB
DS actual PSD : 19. 9 dB US actual PSD : 12. 2 dB
NE Rcvd Cells : 1313 NE Xmitted Cells : 1430
NE CRC Count : 1 FE CRC Count : 0
NE ES Count : 1 FE ES Count : 0
Xdsl Reset Times : 0 Xdsl Link Times : 2
ITU Version[0] : 00000000 ITU Version[1] : 00000000
ADSL Firmware Version : 05-07-02-08-00-01
Power Management Mode : DSL_G997_PMS_L0
Test Mode : DISABLE
-------------------------------- ATU-C Info ---------------------------------
Far Current Attenuation : 26 dB Far SNR Margin : 22 dB
CO ITU Version[0] : b5005453 CO ITU Version[1] : 54430000
DSLAM CHIPSET VENDOR : < TSTC >

Andyfr
Standard User meditator
(fountain of knowledge) Mon 19-Jun-17 12:05:47
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Re: ADSLNation faceplate - Faulty?


[re: andyfr] [link to this post]
 
I'd say that those figures, in both cases, are about what you'd expect for your situation. In fact, they're not too far removed from what I had myself, before I moved to an FTTC connection. If anything, the downstream SNR figure is possibly a bit low, ie. a bit hopeful. I used to have a stable 4M bps ADSL connection working at an SNR of between 12 and 15dB. Owing to the type of router I was/am using (Broadcom chip), I was able to manually set the target SNR.

I think it's the case (and I'm sure certain correspondents will correct me if I happen to be wrong) that, to achieve a stable ADSL line, you can either get your ISP to change the Interleave Depth outside of the default value 1 (Fast), and clearly that's already the case, or instead you can, if your router allows you to, yourself alter the line's target SNR. (It's possible to do both, but you then run the risk of the line's SNR effectively ending up out-of-range and the line reverting to 2M bps). A 9dB SNR for a line with your characteristics seems to me to be somewhat working on the edge. It might be that over the last 9 years you've been particularly lucky in your line remaining stable at the sort of speed at which you're running but that something may have recently changed (more local users, say) to have put the SNR value over the brink. Perhaps there's a need for you to leave it a bit longer, to see if a revised Interleave Depth or SNR is obtained?

IMHO, nothing you've given us points to a failure of the faceplate filter.
Standard User andyfr
(member) Mon 19-Jun-17 12:18:57
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Re: ADSLNation faceplate - Faulty?


[re: meditator] [link to this post]
 
Thanks for the feedback. Well at least I know it's not the faceplate. As far as I'm aware the Draytek 2860 doesn't allow me to alter the SNR.

I have noticed that the connection drops occasionally overnight, is this normal? In the past I never took any notice of that as I wasn't having any problems.

Andyfr
Standard User RobertoS
(elder) Mon 19-Jun-17 12:51:34
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Re: ADSLNation faceplate - Faulty?


[re: andyfr] [link to this post]
 
I'm afraid most of what meditator has posted is incorrect. As you can perhaps see from what IDNet have already tried, which is the opposite of his suggestion.

Far from the SNRM being low, it is 3dB above the normal 6dB. That suggests there has been instability, which you have just described is still happening.

When you get disconnections like that the system (DLM = Dynamic Line Management) raises the SNRM in 3dB steps to try to prevent them. The fact that meditator needs a 12dB or 15dB setting to stabilise his indicates severe problems somewhere. Possibly a faulty line, possibly it passes by a source of high electromagnetic noise between him and the exchange. There can be many reasons.

Each 3dB step up in margin costs you often around 1Mbps connection speed, and sometimes more. That's where your speed has gone. With your 50dB downstream attenuation I would expect several hundred Kbps more, depending on all the other line-affecting factors.

If you want a bit of background, then read my Noise Margin page, and also from the left-hand menu there read Troubleshooting >> High noise margin. Particularly Section 4.

From your change to using a dangly filter in the Test socket, at this stage we are told nothing by the very similar results. In particular it could still be a faceplate filter problem. I/we were looking for a significant difference in the two sets of stats, and there isn't one. A big difference would have suggested a problem with the extension wiring or some piece of kit connected to it.

Do you use the landline phone at all, and if so which socket is it plugged into? The phone socket on the faceplate, or at an extension? How big a problem would it be to you to have the extensions not working for 2-3 weeks?

The 2-3 weeks is for DLM to restore the 6dB margin if it is a faceplate problem, as explained in my links. If it is some other cause then things will stay as they are or continue to deteriorate.

The best thing to do if you need the extensions connected would be to replace the faceplate anyway with a new one, that you could connected the extensions to. We can tell little until we get this 2-3 week wait.

Having said that, if the disconnections stop now you aren't using the faceplate then we are close to knowing it is a local problem.

My broadband basic info/help site - www.robertos.me.uk. Domains, site and mail hosting - Tsohost.
Connection - AAISP Home::1 80/20. Sync 71288/12440Kbps @ 600m. BQMs - IPv4 & IPv6
Standard User meditator
(fountain of knowledge) Mon 19-Jun-17 15:15:08
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Re: ADSLNation faceplate - Faulty?


[re: RobertoS] [link to this post]
 
Far from the SNRM being low, it is 3dB above the normal 6dB.

Yes, but "normal" assumes you're fairly close to the exchange, and if andyfr's stats are to be believed he's not. If, as any user, you insist on screwing as much speed out of the connection as possible and operate at a low SNR in a situation where you're a fair distance from the exchange then you've got to expect that on the odd occasion or two noise will intrude and produce errors.

Whilst you're correct in stating that I myself had "severe problems" when I was on ADSL, please note that that's now ancient history, as I'm now operating on VDSL (an FTTC connection) for the same premises-to-exchange connection and no longer suffer the severe interference problems I had. So "needs" in your reply should read "needed". The point in the premises-to-exchange connection where those problems occurred is now covered by optical fibre, completely eliminating the issues I had when on ADSL, and my current connection therefore can fully sing. Pre-FTTC, there was absolutely nothing that I myself could have done to achieve stable operation, save to operate the line at an elevated SNR.

As for andyfr's stats, I still contend that his situation is similar to what I used to have, at least in so far as downstream speed and attenuation goes.

My advice to andyfr is that, if after further investigation, he suspects that the problem does lie in the faceplate filter, he specifically gets the Clarity version as a replacement.
Administrator MrSaffron
(staff) Mon 19-Jun-17 15:31:50
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Re: ADSLNation faceplate - Faulty?


[re: meditator] [link to this post]
 
The 'Yes, but "normal" assumes you're fairly close to the exchange' is something that is contestable, since plenty of people do benefit and are happy with the standard 6dB or even benefit with the lowest 3dB.

if the issue is the faceplate, then running from test socket for a while will reveal if there is anything to be gained.

The author of the above post is a thinkbroadband staff member. It may not constitute an official statement on behalf of thinkbroadband.
Standard User ian72
(eat-sleep-adslguide) Mon 19-Jun-17 15:34:56
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Re: ADSLNation faceplate - Faulty?


[re: MrSaffron] [link to this post]
 
Agree, my line used to run happily at 3dB on ADSL2+ and it is over a mile long.
Standard User 4M2
(knowledge is power) Mon 19-Jun-17 16:21:37
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Re: ADSLNation faceplate - Faulty?


[re: ian72] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by ian72:
Agree, my line used to run happily at 3dB on ADSL2+ and it is over a mile long.


It can become something of a balancing act with ADSL: just recently I've had a few issues with my line and to achieve a stable connection with optimal speed I've forced ADSL2 and a 3dB downstream SNRM - previously ADSL2+ with a 6dB SNRM and 37dB attenuation. Haven't lost much throughput speed though ~10.3Mbps reduced to ~9.3Mbps and I can live with that for the time being smile

Unfortunately it is of little relevance to the OP since he is on ADSL1(G.dmt Annex A) with a 50db attenuation and to reduce the SNRM from 9dB could make the connection unstable. If it is/was a problem with the filtered faceplate then hopefully his line should stabilise with perhaps a 6dB downstream SNRM and a slight increase in throughput.
Standard User andyfr
(member) Mon 19-Jun-17 17:00:51
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Re: ADSLNation faceplate - Faulty?


[re: RobertoS] [link to this post]
 
I think for the cost it's worth getting a new faceplate anyway. I did try to find the recommended Clarity one without success, so I will probably go for another ADSLNation one unless there is a better alternative.

The main phone is plugged into one of the extensions so I need to keep that option. I have also ordered a better quality modem cable as well.

Andyfr
Standard User RobertoS
(elder) Mon 19-Jun-17 19:24:38
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Re: ADSLNation faceplate - Faulty?


[re: andyfr] [link to this post]
 
I doubt if the modem cable will help. A replacement one like you have will be easiest for you. If you have been wiring the ring/bell wire on Terminal 3 I suggest you leave it off, unless your phone is a very unusual one these days. See the page on my website about it.

Just a thought! What filtering have you got the phone plugged into?

My broadband basic info/help site - www.robertos.me.uk. Domains, site and mail hosting - Tsohost.
Connection - AAISP Home::1 80/20. Sync 71288/12440Kbps @ 600m. BQMs - IPv4 & IPv6
Standard User Banger
(eat-sleep-adslguide) Mon 19-Jun-17 20:03:11
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Re: ADSLNation faceplate - Faulty?


[re: andyfr] [link to this post]
 
I have also ordered a better quality modem cable as well.


If you are ordering a Twisted Pair modem cable I got one the same length as my flat Billion cable and lost a couple of meg compared to the flat cable so I swapped back to the flat cable.

Tim
www.uno.net.uk & freenetname
Asus DSL-N55U and TP-Link WD9970 on 80 Meg LLU Fibre
http://www.thinkbroadband.com/speedtest/results.html...

Current Sync: 71602/17848
Standard User RobertoS
(elder) Mon 19-Jun-17 20:57:19
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Re: ADSLNation faceplate - Faulty?


[re: Banger] [link to this post]
 
I bought an ADSLNation faceplate and high-end modem cable several years ago on ADSL2+, (O2 so no DLM to get upset), and after hours of messing around with four or five dangly filters and bog standard modem cables ended up with two danglies consistently getting higher sync, and all the modem cables better for sync.

Maybe the error rates were higher but they were only FECs so I didn't care.

The faceplate and fancy cable have been in a drawer ever since. They weren't worth sending back, due to the postage cost.

My broadband basic info/help site - www.robertos.me.uk. Domains, site and mail hosting - Tsohost.
Connection - AAISP Home::1 80/20. Sync 71288/12440Kbps @ 600m. BQMs - IPv4 & IPv6
Standard User andyfr
(member) Mon 19-Jun-17 21:34:45
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Re: ADSLNation faceplate - Faulty?


[re: RobertoS] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by RobertoS:
Just a thought! What filtering have you got the phone plugged into?


None. I have it wired so that none of the extensions need to have filters.

Andyfr
Standard User RobertoS
(elder) Mon 19-Jun-17 22:51:40
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Re: ADSLNation faceplate - Faulty?


[re: andyfr] [link to this post]
 
Which if the filter in the ADSL Nation faceplate has failed would cause trouble. Filters do fail, which is your original question smile.

Get that new one fitted. Ignore what I was saying about my tests, which resulted in 200-300Kbps difference in sync. If a new faceplate fixes it in 2-3 weeks then we can talk about that then.

But don't connect Terminal 3. Only 2 and 5, and make sure 2 <> 2 and 5 <> 5. A setup of 2 <> 5 and 5 <> 2 is wrong.

My broadband basic info/help site - www.robertos.me.uk. Domains, site and mail hosting - Tsohost.
Connection - AAISP Home::1 80/20. Sync 71288/12440Kbps @ 600m. BQMs - IPv4 & IPv6

Edited by RobertoS (Mon 19-Jun-17 22:53:18)

Standard User andyfr
(member) Tue 20-Jun-17 07:27:42
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Re: ADSLNation faceplate - Faulty?


[re: RobertoS] [link to this post]
 
Okay. smile

Andyfr
Standard User andyfr
(member) Tue 04-Jul-17 10:04:20
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Re: ADSLNation faceplate - Faulty?


[re: andyfr] [link to this post]
 
Just fitted the new faceplate and ADSL cable. Here are the stats:

adsl status
--------------------------- ATU-R Info (hw: annex A, f/w: annex A) -----------
Running Mode : G.dmt Annex A State : SHOWTIME
DS Actual Rate : 4800000 bps US Actual Rate : 448000 bps
DS Attainable Rate : 4992000 bps US Attainable Rate : 1168000 bps
DS Path Mode : Interleave US Path Mode : Interleave
DS Interleave Depth : 32 US Interleave Depth : 4
NE Current Attenuation : 50 dB Cur SNR Margin : 9 dB
DS actual PSD : 19. 9 dB US actual PSD : 12. 2 dB
NE Rcvd Cells : 32246 NE Xmitted Cells : 9942
NE CRC Count : 1 FE CRC Count : 0
NE ES Count : 1 FE ES Count : 0
Xdsl Reset Times : 0 Xdsl Link Times : 1
ITU Version[0] : b5004946 ITU Version[1] : 544e0000
ADSL Firmware Version : 05-07-02-08-00-01
Power Management Mode : DSL_G997_PMS_L0
Test Mode : DISABLE
-------------------------------- ATU-C Info ---------------------------------
Far Current Attenuation : 26 dB Far SNR Margin : 23 dB
CO ITU Version[0] : b5005453 CO ITU Version[1] : 54430000
DSLAM CHIPSET VENDOR : < TSTC >

Doesn't look like there is much difference to the stats from the old one.

Andyfr
Standard User andyfr
(member) Tue 04-Jul-17 10:07:04
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Re: ADSLNation faceplate - Faulty?


[re: RobertoS] [link to this post]
 
One thing I did notice when fitting the new faceplate was that the ring wire was connected so just connected the blue/white and the white/blue.

Andyfr
Standard User ian72
(eat-sleep-adslguide) Tue 04-Jul-17 10:10:00
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Re: ADSLNation faceplate - Faulty?


[re: andyfr] [link to this post]
 
Did you make sure the ring wire was disconnected at both ends?
Standard User andyfr
(member) Tue 04-Jul-17 10:12:36
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Re: ADSLNation faceplate - Faulty?


[re: ian72] [link to this post]
 
I'm pretty sure that I didn't connect the ring wire when I did the extensions but I will double check.

Andyfr
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