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Standard User MrBeeline
(committed) Wed 18-Oct-17 22:05:41
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Advice required... storm damage


[link to this post]
 
Not sure if this is appropriate for this forum. I'm really considering this as a broadband issue, as that's what I primarily use my line for. But I suspect there will be some knowledgeable folks that could offer assistance. I've tried GOOGLE in general. But there seems to be a fair bit of conflicting advice.

As I'm sure most folks will be aware. Some parts of the country were hit by a pretty bad storm last Monday evening. Dumfries and Galloway being one of the worst hit. I believe gusts of 76MPH were recorded locally.

Rural property. Line come in underground, to a pole on my property (it says 1956 on it) and has many (at least three) "D" for dangerous red disks pinned on it. HUGE (read 80ft high +) Oak tree a few yards from it (tree is probably some 200+ years old), so must have been there since the pole was erected. Almost certainly erected by hand, as there's never been any vehicle access to that part of the grounds. Line then goes from the pole to my property (around 15/20 yards).

Monday night, a rather large branch of the tree (the size of a decent tree in itself!) comes down and takes the overhead line with it. Openreach turned up today (well withing 48 hours.. well done there). And makes a temporary fix. Basically spliced a new section of cable to the old bit. The end at the pole was apparently undamaged. The pole is even more wobbly now then it was before, but still standing. Phone line now OK and internet back up.

The Openreach techie (nice chap) said there would not be any charge for the work done so far. But seemed unsure who's responsibility it was to make a permanent fix. So he phoned his supervisor. Who said I needed to phone my "provider", who I assume is BT (that's who the phone is through). He seemed to be implying, that the work for a permanent fix, would be at my cost!

The logical thing to do (at least to me). Is get rid of the pole (I'll soon chainsaw that sucker for them). And continue the underground cable up to the house (I'm assuming it will be armoured). Don't even mind digging what I'm assuming will not have to be either a very deep, or wide trench. Not even sure why they did not do this in the first place. Even back in 1956, it was plain daft to put a phone pole up and run an overhead cable.

So... anyone got any experience of this sort of thing? Prefer to get my ducks in a row, before phoning BT.

Thanks in advance.

----
Mike

Edited by MrBeeline (Wed 18-Oct-17 22:10:08)

Administrator MrSaffron
(staff) Wed 18-Oct-17 22:15:19
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Re: Advice required... storm damage


[re: MrBeeline] [link to this post]
 
If your tree caused damage then your bill to pay is likely rule.

What exactly happens depends on the survey, if the repair is using waterproof enclosures and wiring is not in danger of being broken by something else even the temporary fix might soldier on for another decade.

You digging and installing ducting as per specification of developers guide would be a way to reduce the cost if they decide to bill and its large. That said if just 15 to 20 yards a simple armoured cable dug in would probably do. Just be sure to mark path to avoid accidents with digging in the future.

A lot will depend on what is arranged via provider with Openreach around making the temporary repair permanent, and that will mean discussion with surveyor who is likely busy with others, so might not be too rapid.

The author of the above post is a thinkbroadband staff member. It may not constitute an official statement on behalf of thinkbroadband.
Standard User MrBeeline
(committed) Wed 18-Oct-17 22:42:09
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Re: Advice required... storm damage


[re: MrSaffron] [link to this post]
 
Thanks for that. Appreciated.

Current temporary fix, is cable from pole now just runs across the ground to the house, with a joint at each end of the spliced in bit of cabling.

As you say, could last for another decade or more.

I'll give BT a phone and see what they say then.

Thanks for your advice.

----
Mike


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Standard User Zarjaz
(eat-sleep-adslguide) Thu 19-Oct-17 06:05:47
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Re: Advice required... storm damage


[re: MrBeeline] [link to this post]
 
The sticking point for Openreach is the D pole .....

They cannot climb it, and replacing it will have to be done completely by hand, this at a time when their pole erection team are very busy ....

Did the pole used to have your power cables on it too perchance ?

Standard User eckiedoo
(fountain of knowledge) Thu 19-Oct-17 07:10:10
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Re: Advice required... storm damage


[re: MrBeeline] [link to this post]
 
Who owns the oak tree and the ground its trunk sprouts from?

Whilst it seems likely to be your property, you should check your Title Deeds to be absolutely sure, either way.

Is there any form of Tree Preservation or similar Orders involving it, given particularly its age?

-----------

Given your pole estimate of "around 15/20 yards", it appears that the pole itself could be a direct threat to your buildings etc - worth checking your (house) insurance.
Standard User MatHal
(newbie) Thu 19-Oct-17 10:39:21
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Re: Advice required... storm damage


[re: MrBeeline] [link to this post]
 
It may well be that Openreach will say that the tree was yours and therefore the damage is your responsibility. I would take anything the engineer said to you with a pinch of salt. He may have put the repair down to them initially but their attitude could change once they (or BT rather) realise the possibility of charging you!

Your best bet is to concentrate on the state of the pole and the possible danger to your family et al. Also, if it is close enough, the risk to your property. You need to lay that on with a trowel, stressing that the pole has been marked as dangerous for a considerable time but they have not removed it.

Considering the stupidly short distance to the house and the cost to them of fitting a new pole I'm sure they will take the sensible option of undergrounding the cable.
Standard User MHC
(sensei) Thu 19-Oct-17 11:04:26
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Re: Advice required... storm damage


[re: MrBeeline] [link to this post]
 
At least you have service - not perfect but it is there. Plus, there will be large numbers of people like you that need service restoration and initially it may just be - get it working.

Ownership of the land the tree is on could be key to the solution. Gone are the days when BT would have just accepted the costs and reinstated the line. If it is your tree then your insurance should cover it, if it belongs to a neighbour, then they should be asked for insurance details.

A D - pole does not mean it will fall over tomorrow and as you have experienced, teh wind did not take it out. It means that it would be dangerous to climb.

If the insurance company will pay out then get BT to provide their costs for re-instating over head which, through no fault of theirs will require a new pole and also to trench it - which may be cheaper.

If the Insurance is not an option then you need to do some negotiating with BT, agree to dig the trench to the required depth provided they will then run an armoured cable in there.


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

M H C


taurus excreta cerebrum vincit
Standard User Michael_Chare
(fountain of knowledge) Thu 19-Oct-17 12:11:53
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Re: Advice required... storm damage


[re: MrBeeline] [link to this post]
 
Almost exactly 30 years ago my overhead phone line was bought down by a falling oak tree. It was about 5 weeks before the phone was working again. No doubt there were other faults.

If the pole was wobbly before the tree fell, then I would argue that it was not properly secured in the first place and that is why it is more wobbly now.

I would not approach BT. If they want to charge you, I would have thought they would have to ask you before undertaking any work. Presumably you would have the option of declining. Further I doubt BT could argue that you have been negligent.

You could ask your insurance company.

Michael Chare
Standard User MrBeeline
(committed) Thu 19-Oct-17 21:31:24
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Re: Advice required... storm damage


[re: Zarjaz] [link to this post]
 
"Did the pole used to have your power cables on it too perchance ? "

No. The electricity comes over the hills and into the back of the property.

Seem to remember that the pole even has BT carved into it next to the date 1956.

----
Mike
Standard User MrBeeline
(committed) Thu 19-Oct-17 21:39:43
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Re: Advice required... storm damage


[re: eckiedoo] [link to this post]
 
The Oak tree is definitely on our property, roots and all.

No tree preservation order on the tree. This is rural SW Scotland and my house is set in a fair bit of ground, with many trees on it.

I'm a self employed gardener these days (got fed up of being a computer programmer after some 30 years), so know a thing or two about our woody friends. There's also a photo of the house from 1903 I seem to remember and that clearly shows the Oak tree there and it's pretty big even back then.

Pole is not close enough to the house to be of concern. It's down a fairly steep slope, so it would not reach the house if it fell that way. Might come close to the green house though.

----
Mike
Standard User MrBeeline
(committed) Thu 19-Oct-17 21:43:13
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Re: Advice required... storm damage


[re: MHC] [link to this post]
 
Thanks.

You make some very good points.

I'll check what the house insurance says. Must admit that I had not thought about this.

----
Mike
Standard User partial
(experienced) Thu 19-Oct-17 21:44:51
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Re: Advice required... storm damage


[re: MrBeeline] [link to this post]
 
Won't have BT carved on it in 1956.

Will have

GPO
Height in feet
wood type/supplier code

I'd sit tight for a month and if nothing happens, report it as damage to Openreach. One would hope that the tech would know how to deal with storm damaged plant. There isn't an option for the techs to raise time related charges for pole renewal.
Standard User MrBeeline
(committed) Thu 19-Oct-17 22:08:36
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Re: Advice required... storm damage


[re: partial] [link to this post]
 
I stand corrected. You are correct of course.

Just wandered down (nearly tripping over the cable) with my handy flashlight to have a look.
And it actually says:

GPO
18L
67

Not quite sure where I got the 1956 from! Sort of assuming that the 67 refereed to 1967, but maybe not now (from what you say).

Can confirm though, that it's been here since we first moved up here and that was 1977.

Still got the old black backlite phone that was here when we first moved in. In fact we continued to use it for a couple of years after moving in. How times have changed.

PS. Think I'll take your advice and sit on it for a while. Not really a problem till the Spring time, when people will start using the two paths that the cable is currently draped over. Thanks for you advice.

----
Mike

Edited by MrBeeline (Thu 19-Oct-17 22:10:35)

Standard User Icaras
(experienced) Fri 20-Oct-17 07:32:55
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Re: Advice required... storm damage


[re: MrBeeline] [link to this post]
 
67 does mean its from1967. 18L is the height and supplier code.

Icaras
Standard User partial
(experienced) Fri 20-Oct-17 17:42:19
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Re: Advice required... storm damage


[re: MrBeeline] [link to this post]
 
I wasn't quite there as I somehow forgot the year of preservation stamp! The 18L is 18 feet and Light. That is one small pole!
Standard User DanielCoffey67
(newbie) Fri 20-Oct-17 18:20:37
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Re: Advice required... storm damage


[re: MrBeeline] [link to this post]
 
MrBeeline - if you do decide to either remove or trim the tree, it may be worth asking around if there are any wood crafters in your area who would like first dibs.

I have just had some ash, beech and sycamore removed from a plot that I am now on and when one of the oaks was crown-lifted there were three sections about thigh thickness. Two of the local wood turners were desperate for the oak. They explained that even gnarly bits down to arm thickness are still of interest.

Large trunk sections would be precious and possibly have monetary value.

Have a look on Facebook for local green wood groups?
Standard User MrBeeline
(committed) Fri 20-Oct-17 21:59:42
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Re: Advice required... storm damage


[re: DanielCoffey67] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by DanielCoffey67:
MrBeeline - if you do decide to either remove or trim the tree, it may be worth asking around if there are any wood crafters in your area who would like first dibs.

I have just had some ash, beech and sycamore removed from a plot that I am now on and when one of the oaks was crown-lifted there were three sections about thigh thickness. Two of the local wood turners were desperate for the oak. They explained that even gnarly bits down to arm thickness are still of interest.

Large trunk sections would be precious and possibly have monetary value.

Have a look on Facebook for local green wood groups?


Thanks for that. But it's sort of a member of the family (so to speak).

No intention of getting it cut down. It would be a VERY difficult and dangerous job, costing many hundreds of pounds (possibly into four figures even!). I would estimate it's girth as in excess of 4m, making a good 200+ years old. This is one mother of a HUGE tree. Even the branch that came down would be considered a decent sized tree on it's own.

I'm currently in the process of cutting the branch up myself (got my basic chainsaw "ticket"). Most will go for firewood. As we have a wood burning boiler that powers the central heating during the worst of the Winter months. Though I do put aside a few choice pieces for a friend of mine in the local village that does a bit of wood turning. The joys of the countryside...

----
Mike

Edited by MrBeeline (Fri 20-Oct-17 22:02:41)

Standard User Zarjaz
(eat-sleep-adslguide) Sat 21-Oct-17 09:54:44
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Re: Advice required... storm damage


[re: partial] [link to this post]
 
18 foot shocked you could carry its replacement down on your shoulder !

Look for a marking CLP1a









*(thats a clothes line prop)

Standard User MrBeeline
(committed) Tue 05-Dec-17 10:03:31
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Re: Advice required... storm damage


[re: Zarjaz] [link to this post]
 
What a farce this has turned into! Conjurers up thoughts of "Brian Rix" (though I suspect you would need to be of a certain age to get that).

I wonder if BT talks to Openreach or any of the external contractors it employs? Or come to that, does anyone in BT's HELP centre/s talk to each other, or even listen to the customer?

If I've spoken to one, I must have spoken to countless dozens of people at BT regarding this issue (from many different countries by the sound of peoples accents). Same story related each time but that doesn't seem to stop the next person from phoning me to ask the same things... over and over and over. Openreach must also have "popped in" to see if things are OK several times now. Even though the job should clearly show that an adequate temporary service was supplied pretty much 2 months ago now. Can't fault the Openreach guys, they've always been very nice chaps (spent ages talking about cars to one guy + supplying tea and biscuits to another one). They've even dropped in a couple of Sundays running. Bottom line is, everyone seems to be trying to help, but communication has been pretty none existent!

Good point is. That it looks like they have accepted responsibility for the pole needing replacement due to its age. Well there's certainly been no mention of any charge up to now.

They were supposed to turn up this coming Friday to put the new pole up...But guess who turned up at 7:30am this morning. They are currently down there with a jack hammer discovering that the property sits on a bedrock of granite. Good luck to them.

Wonder how many more calls I'll get from Lucy, Sandra, Mohamed etc. at BT about this? Before hopefully it finally gets resolved.

Fingers crossed it actually turns out to be FOC

----
Mike

Edited by MrBeeline (Tue 05-Dec-17 10:06:36)

Administrator MrSaffron
(staff) Tue 05-Dec-17 10:16:37
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Re: Advice required... storm damage


[re: MrBeeline] [link to this post]
 
BT Consumer help desk can only talk to Openreach engineering to the same extent that Sky and TalkTalk can, rules of separation.

The author of the above post is a thinkbroadband staff member. It may not constitute an official statement on behalf of thinkbroadband.
Standard User Zarjaz
(eat-sleep-adslguide) Tue 05-Dec-17 10:18:25
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Re: Advice required... storm damage


[re: MrBeeline] [link to this post]
 
Wow, that has turned into a lengthy fiasco !

(Yep, old enough to get the Brian Rix reference)

I this has gone on long enough, were it me, Id be emailing Gavin Patterson at BT and let his complaints team add their weight to your cause.

Standard User RobertoS
(elder) Tue 05-Dec-17 10:56:41
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Re: Advice required... storm damage


[re: Zarjaz] [link to this post]
 
Perhaps the granite explains the pole. One hole a lot easier than a 15 metre or more trench. Having said that, odd that the pole is in granite not nearby earth?

I wonder where the tree roots are in relation to the feed to the pole.

It sounds as if the temporary repair is crossing a couple of rights of way, so a public danger.

My broadband basic info/help site - www.robertos.me.uk. Domains, site and mail hosting - Tsohost.
Connection - AAISP Home::1 80/20. 200GB. Sync 74145/13476Kbps @ 600m. BQMs - IPv4 & IPv6
Standard User MrBeeline
(committed) Tue 05-Dec-17 12:20:47
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Re: Advice required... storm damage


[re: RobertoS] [link to this post]
 
Soil is around 18" deep, then you hit granite. Would have thought that the armored cable would not need to be more than 18" deep. But then again, I'm no expert here.

At least they've finished now and done a pretty tidy job. Lets hope this is the end of it.

----
Mike
Standard User RobertoS
(elder) Tue 05-Dec-17 12:50:10
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Re: Advice required... storm damage


[re: MrBeeline] [link to this post]
 
New pole in?

My broadband basic info/help site - www.robertos.me.uk. Domains, site and mail hosting - Tsohost.
Connection - AAISP Home::1 80/20. 200GB. Sync 74145/13476Kbps @ 600m. BQMs - IPv4 & IPv6
Standard User MrBeeline
(committed) Tue 05-Dec-17 14:49:00
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Re: Advice required... storm damage


[re: RobertoS] [link to this post]
 
All done and dusted. New pole is a bit higher but looks a bit more professional than the previous one. At least it doesn't look like the leaning tower of Pisa.

Lets just hope that there isn't a bill in the post!

PS. Probably a coincidence, but the best broadband sync I've had for a while. More likely just the time of day I suppose.

----
Mike

Edited by MrBeeline (Tue 05-Dec-17 14:50:12)

Standard User RobertoS
(elder) Tue 05-Dec-17 14:53:57
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Re: Advice required... storm damage


[re: MrBeeline] [link to this post]
 
The signal is flowing better down the line from the pole, because it starts higher smile.

My broadband basic info/help site - www.robertos.me.uk. Domains, site and mail hosting - Tsohost.
Connection - AAISP Home::1 80/20. 200GB. Sync 74145/13476Kbps @ 600m. BQMs - IPv4 & IPv6
Standard User Scottish_Pete
(member) Tue 05-Dec-17 18:11:02
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Re: Advice required... storm damage


[re: MrBeeline] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by MrBeeline:
All done and dusted. New pole is a bit higher


The pole is not higher, it is the hole is not deep enough wink

Scottish_Pete

Zen Unlimited Fibre 2 connected to Local Exchange
TBB SPEEDTEST
My BQM
My MyDslWebStats
Standard User ukhardy07
(knowledge is power) Tue 05-Dec-17 22:27:12
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Re: Advice required... storm damage


[re: MrBeeline] [link to this post]
 
At least it doesn't look like the leaning tower of Pisa.
Give it six months! smile
Standard User RobertoS
(elder) Wed 06-Dec-17 00:38:24
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Re: Advice required... storm damage


[re: ukhardy07] [link to this post]
 
Especially if Scottish Pete is right.

My broadband basic info/help site - www.robertos.me.uk. Domains, site and mail hosting - Tsohost.
Connection - AAISP Home::1 80/20. 200GB. Sync 74145/13476Kbps @ 600m. BQMs - IPv4 & IPv6
Standard User eckiedoo
(fountain of knowledge) Wed 06-Dec-17 07:16:59
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Re: Advice required... storm damage


[re: RobertoS] [link to this post]
 
Aye - but it maun be slower on uploads, hae'in tae climb a' that way back UP - Ah hope it's no a greasy pole!

Still, it micht mak up time on the lang road doon tae the Exchange.
Standard User WilliamGrimsley
(experienced) Wed 06-Dec-17 10:05:49
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Re: Advice required... storm damage


[re: RobertoS] [link to this post]
 
Is this true? I'd love to see it proved. XD.

William Grimsley.
Standard User BatBoy
(sensei) Wed 06-Dec-17 10:45:47
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Re: Advice required... storm damage


[re: WilliamGrimsley] [link to this post]
 
No, its just a joke.
Standard User RobertoS
(elder) Wed 06-Dec-17 11:12:52
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Re: Advice required... storm damage


[re: BatBoy] [link to this post]
 
But don't forget that using cabling in a curve causes higher attenuation. This is because, given what we all know that electrons travel along the outside of a wire not down the centre, when they go round a bend some inevitably fly off at a tangent.

My broadband basic info/help site - www.robertos.me.uk. Domains, site and mail hosting - Tsohost.
Connection - AAISP Home::1 80/20. 200GB. Sync 74145/13476Kbps @ 600m. BQMs - IPv4 & IPv6
Standard User BatBoy
(sensei) Wed 06-Dec-17 11:22:44
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Re: Advice required... storm damage


[re: RobertoS] [link to this post]
 
Ah yes, centrifugal force
Standard User Zarjaz
(eat-sleep-adslguide) Wed 06-Dec-17 11:52:30
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Re: Advice required... storm damage


[re: BatBoy] [link to this post]
 
grin

Standard User eckiedoo
(fountain of knowledge) Wed 06-Dec-17 12:35:41
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Re: Advice required... storm damage


[re: RobertoS] [link to this post]
 
Perhaps we should be tightening up those catenary curves between phone poles, as well, to straighten the cable runs.

And what about the zig-zags on railway overhead wiring, to spread and reduce wear on the pick-ups? Short but tight turns at the end of every length.
Standard User ian72
(eat-sleep-adslguide) Wed 06-Dec-17 14:47:34
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Re: Advice required... storm damage


[re: RobertoS] [link to this post]
 
The other problem with the downhill hypothesis is that whilst data may travel faster downhill it had to get to the height in the first place so would have been travelling slower uphill - overall it's going to even out. Ideally you need the Internet to be hosted in space so that downloading it has the benefit of gravity. Move data centres to the ISS and we can all benefit from gravity when downloading.
Standard User JohnR
(eat-sleep-adslguide) Wed 06-Dec-17 16:09:58
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Re: Advice required... storm damage


[re: ukhardy07] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by ukhardy07:
At least it doesn't look like the leaning tower of Pisa.
Give it six months! smile


They better hope so... Still Caroline will be a good test this weekend wink

\_0-0_/ AdsL is Hell \_0-0_/
To Infinity
Wats SUP doc.... You using too much.....
Standard User RobertoS
(elder) Wed 06-Dec-17 16:23:51
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Re: Advice required... storm damage


[re: ian72] [link to this post]
 
I did wonder about that Ian, but realised that the higher voltage supplied on the downsream covers that possibility, given that the power supplied to the line is controlled by the DSLAM and varies according to the situation.

My broadband basic info/help site - www.robertos.me.uk. Domains, site and mail hosting - Tsohost.
Connection - AAISP Home::1 80/20. 200GB. Sync 74145/13476Kbps @ 600m. BQMs - IPv4 & IPv6
Standard User eckiedoo
(fountain of knowledge) Thu 07-Dec-17 06:48:22
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Re: Advice required... storm damage


[re: RobertoS] [link to this post]
 
Morning Bob.

What voltage range can the DSLAM produce?
Standard User RobertoS
(elder) Thu 07-Dec-17 11:48:40
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Re: Advice required... storm damage


[re: eckiedoo] [link to this post]
 
I've no idea.

My broadband basic info/help site - www.robertos.me.uk. Domains, site and mail hosting - Tsohost.
Connection - AAISP Home::1 80/20. 200GB. Sync 74145/13476Kbps @ 600m. BQMs - IPv4 & IPv6
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