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Standard User Michael_Chare
(fountain of knowledge) Sat 25-Nov-17 11:36:34
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New Cap rules - ISP speed testing


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With regard to the new CAP rules in the News section and the requirement for ISPs to know their customer connections speeds it is suggested that:

"Wi-Fi will be totally ignored, i.e. testing will be between router and ISP network and massively multi-thread"

This makes me curious as to what impact this might have on the equipment that customers use and the service they receive whilst the tests are taking place.

I would not like to be forced to use some ISP provided router, nor would I like to see my connection used for running test from which I am unlikely to receive much benefit.

Michael Chare
Administrator MrSaffron
(staff) Sat 25-Nov-17 11:57:22
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Re: New Cap rules - ISP speed testing


[re: Michael_Chare] [link to this post]
 
ISPs are not going to go around testing every customers line...they will simply present data from what they say is a representative sample or put another way their existing SamKnows testers will be used

The author of the above post is a thinkbroadband staff member. It may not constitute an official statement on behalf of thinkbroadband.
Standard User Michael_Chare
(fountain of knowledge) Sat 25-Nov-17 17:18:20
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Re: New Cap rules - ISP speed testing


[re: MrSaffron] [link to this post]
 
Maybe ISPs will want to take advantage of SamKnows claim:

"You can embed our measurement software into your CPE, giving you all the functionality of The Whitebox without the extra device, plus you can deploy it across your entire network!"

Michael Chare


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Administrator MrSaffron
(staff) Sat 25-Nov-17 17:45:14
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Re: New Cap rules - ISP speed testing


[re: Michael_Chare] [link to this post]
 
They will and are

The author of the above post is a thinkbroadband staff member. It may not constitute an official statement on behalf of thinkbroadband.
Standard User eckiedoo
(fountain of knowledge) Sun 26-Nov-17 07:31:33
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Re: New Cap rules - ISP speed testing


[re: Michael_Chare] [link to this post]
 
I have had both versions of the SamKnows modified modem testers for several years now - and I am not aware of them causing any problems, although I generally do not make heavy demands such as videos or gaming.
Standard User Michael_Chare
(fountain of knowledge) Sun 26-Nov-17 09:25:58
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Re: New Cap rules - ISP speed testing


[re: eckiedoo] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by eckiedoo:
I have had both versions of the SamKnows modified modem testers for several years now - and I am not aware of them causing any problems, although I generally do not make heavy demands such as videos or gaming.
Is that additional hardware that connect to your router?

Michael Chare
Administrator MrSaffron
(staff) Sun 26-Nov-17 10:11:19
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Re: New Cap rules - ISP speed testing


[re: Michael_Chare] [link to this post]
 
Yes it is, the SamKnows boxes are meant to only test if they see no traffic from your devices and if you start doing stuff to abandon a test.

Those running a BQM ping tool can see the regular testing.

Providers like Virgin Media already use them to show they have an average peak speed of around 189 Mbps (if I recall) on the 200 Mbps product.

The author of the above post is a thinkbroadband staff member. It may not constitute an official statement on behalf of thinkbroadband.
Standard User Michael_Chare
(fountain of knowledge) Sun 26-Nov-17 10:28:39
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Re: New Cap rules - ISP speed testing


[re: MrSaffron] [link to this post]
 
If you have a separate box then it is obvious that you have it. Additional software on an ISP provided router might well be present without your knowledge. If the ISP is relying on that they might make it difficult for the customer to use alternative equipment.

Michael Chare
Administrator MrSaffron
(staff) Sun 26-Nov-17 10:30:29
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Re: New Cap rules - ISP speed testing


[re: Michael_Chare] [link to this post]
 
An ISP does not need data from every customer e.g. Ofcom produces its national average data from a population of 2,500 boxes

The author of the above post is a thinkbroadband staff member. It may not constitute an official statement on behalf of thinkbroadband.
Standard User eckiedoo
(fountain of knowledge) Sun 26-Nov-17 10:51:53
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Re: New Cap rules - ISP speed testing


[re: Michael_Chare] [link to this post]
 
Yes, a modified Modem.

The Cat 6 cable from the NTE connects directly in to the SamKnows modified modem, into its phone inlet.

Followed by a short Cat 6 cable from adjacent Ethernet port of the SK Modem into the phone inlet of the regular EE Bright Box 2 modem.

That way, all of my traffic, Ethernet and WiFi, is "monitored" and reported by the SK Modem.

I am not aware of any slowing or loading effects of its presence; and as it is "hidden" in a corner, tend to forget its physical presence.

There have been some recent TBB postings about them - particularly if left powered up for months, requiring re-booting - but my one is switched off every night for about 8 hours, so has not caused problems of the reported nature.

---------

The present VDSL SK Modem is basically a white TP-Link device -

Model TL-WR741ND "150Mbps Wireless N Router"

http://www.tp-link.com/us/products/details/TL-WR741N...

I haven't attempted to access it etc; and there are no obvious signs of it actually being directly active on the WiFi side.

SK sends me a brief report early each month, outlining the BB performance of the immediate previous calendar month, also giving a link to a more detailed version.

-----------

The earlier ADSL version, similarly connected etc, was -

CISCO Linksys Wireless-N Broadband Router with Storage Link, Model WRT180NL

http://downloads.linksys.com/downloads/userguide/122...
Standard User Michael_Chare
(fountain of knowledge) Sun 26-Nov-17 13:10:58
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Re: New Cap rules - ISP speed testing


[re: eckiedoo] [link to this post]
 
Thank you for explaining how the SamKnow box is connected. How much do you learn from it?

Michael Chare
Standard User Ignitionnet
(knowledge is power) Sun 26-Nov-17 15:00:38
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Re: New Cap rules - ISP speed testing


[re: eckiedoo] [link to this post]
 
The device you've linked isn't a modem. It can't connect to a phone line directly. There is no Cat 6 connection on an NTE - are you talking about an Openreach modem?

The router you've mentioned has no way to connect to the phone inlet of a modem without a weird cable and definitely no way of providing the VDSL signal a regular modem is expecting to see.

The SamKnows box has no way of sending data if it's sitting between an ISP provided router and the phone line. It doesn't know your username and password or how you are connecting to the network, IPoE, PPPoE, etc.

Maybe I'm just misreading this but the scenario you've posted makes no sense. SamKnows kit are routers running SK software. They don't report on customer traffic they monitor for 'quiet periods' when they can run their tests without having other traffic ruining it, and they certainly aren't double-sided modems that take signals from the phone line, do their thing, then repackage the phone line for delivery to the ISP-supplied modem.

Standard User eckiedoo
(fountain of knowledge) Sun 26-Nov-17 16:22:13
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Re: New Cap rules - ISP speed testing


[re: Ignitionnet] [link to this post]
 
My apologies, I got the cable runs confused, bit of a tangle!

The NTE is in fact a very early one, without filters etc.

This has one of the two VDSL "Splitters" delivered with the EE Bright-Box 2 Modem/Router.

The 10 M Cat 6 cable runs from the Splitter's Modem Outlet up to my office, where it connects in to the EE BB 2 Phone Socket.

Then there is a 1 M Cat 6 cable from the BB 2 fourth EtherNet socket to the SK Modem/Router Phone Socket.

Another 1 M Ethernet cable from the SK's first EtherNet socket to the main W 10 PC.

Must label those cables etc - actually purchased suitable labels some months back - but they "disappeared", re-appearing only in the past week.
Administrator MrSaffron
(staff) Sun 26-Nov-17 16:33:03
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Re: New Cap rules - ISP speed testing


[re: eckiedoo] [link to this post]
 
The use of the word modem when describing the Samknows kit is totally wrong, it is just an Ethernet router

The SamKnows box is designed to sit as a dumb switch between the customers router and their PC LAN, the Wi-Fi side is still handled by the customers router, and presume some air sniffing for Wi-Fi traffic is used to stop testing when then the Wi-Fi is busy, or some clever latency monitoring (NOTE: There are issues with using latency monitoring to decide if a user is doing things, as this may mean tests are not done when there is WAN side congestion)

The author of the above post is a thinkbroadband staff member. It may not constitute an official statement on behalf of thinkbroadband.
Standard User PaulKirby
(knowledge is power) Sun 26-Nov-17 16:36:34
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Re: New Cap rules - ISP speed testing


[re: Ignitionnet] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by Ignitionnet:
The SamKnows box has no way of sending data if it's sitting between an ISP provided router and the phone line. It doesn't know your username and password or how you are connecting to the network, IPoE, PPPoE, etc.

Maybe I'm just misreading this but the scenario you've posted makes no sense. SamKnows kit are routers running SK software. They don't report on customer traffic they monitor for 'quiet periods' when they can run their tests without having other traffic ruining it, and they certainly aren't double-sided modems that take signals from the phone line, do their thing, then repackage the phone line for delivery to the ISP-supplied modem.

I have mine connected like the following:
ONT -> Router -> SKBox -> LAN
Works like a charm, I have noticed large spikes in my BQM now and then, so I assume its the box doing its tests.

Also the SKBox doesn't monitor connections using Wireless, only wired connections.

Paul

BTBroadband - Infinity 4 312.47 Mbps (down), 29.78 Mbps (up) FVA
TBB Speedtest | Linksys WRT 3200 ACM (BQM)
Standard User Ignitionnet
(knowledge is power) Sun 26-Nov-17 16:55:46
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Re: New Cap rules - ISP speed testing


[re: eckiedoo] [link to this post]
 
No worries, thought I was going insane for a minute there.

Standard User eckiedoo
(fountain of knowledge) Sun 26-Nov-17 18:16:14
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Re: New Cap rules - ISP speed testing


[re: MrSaffron] [link to this post]
 
Thanks, Andrew.

Some more information - hopefully benefiting others as well.
Standard User Ignitionnet
(knowledge is power) Mon 27-Nov-17 07:10:27
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Re: New Cap rules - ISP speed testing


[re: MrSaffron] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by MrSaffron:
They will and are


People getting excited over trials for their ISP might well be disappointed when it becomes clear they are testing SamKnows on their CPE. smile

Standard User ukhardy07
(knowledge is power) Mon 27-Nov-17 10:36:35
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Re: New Cap rules - ISP speed testing


[re: Ignitionnet] [link to this post]
 
The BT Trials are all opt-in, I used to do them over a couple of years. You get an email about them if BT think it is of interest to you, with full details and an option to opt-in. Not sure on other ISPs, I did Sky testing in 2011, likely changed now.
Standard User Michael_Chare
(fountain of knowledge) Mon 27-Nov-17 10:51:23
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Re: New Cap rules - ISP speed testing


[re: ukhardy07] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by ukhardy07:
The BT Trials are all opt-in, I used to do them over a couple of years. You get an email about them if BT think it is of interest to you, with full details and an option to opt-in. Not sure on other ISPs, I did Sky testing in 2011, likely changed now.
Was that a separate box or additional software on your router?

Michael Chare
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