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Standard User MHC
(sensei) Tue 02-Jan-18 10:43:40
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LED streetlights - any experience


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Does anyone have any experience of LED streetlights and interference with ADSL/VDSL?

My local authority are on an upgrade programme to change out most of the sodium discharge lamps replacing the heads with LEDS modules - good for carbon emissions, decent light quality, reduced costs for the authority and ultimately the local tax payers. They have bee doing some close to me, and fairly soon I foresee the two closest ones being upgraded.

However, my dropwire almost rests on the head and thus very close to the electronics module with a potential for interference/noise and knowing what small, admittedly cheap, Christmas lights can do, the prospect is a little worrying.

Any comments welcomed. And I have stats and speedtests done on a regular basis so that if there is an issue I will be able to prove the lights are causing interference and hopefully then get them to resolve it.


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M H C


taurus excreta cerebrum vincit
Standard User Zarjaz
(eat-sleep-adslguide) Tue 02-Jan-18 10:51:16
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Re: LED streetlights - any experience


[re: MHC] [link to this post]
 
Happy New Year MHC.

No, not come across them causing any issues in my travels.

Standard User bsdnazz
(regular) Tue 02-Jan-18 11:14:03
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Re: LED streetlights - any experience


[re: MHC] [link to this post]
 
We have a newish LED street light outside our house and about 20ft from our overhead phone wire. I don't think the LED street light is causing us any issues.


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Standard User MHC
(sensei) Tue 02-Jan-18 11:22:58
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Re: LED streetlights - any experience


[re: bsdnazz] [link to this post]
 
20ft is probably plenty of separation though. In my case it is nearer 20cm or probably a lot less.


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M H C


taurus excreta cerebrum vincit
Standard User kitcat
(experienced) Tue 02-Jan-18 12:36:10
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Re: LED streetlights - any experience


[re: MHC] [link to this post]
 
MHC

We have had all ours changed out with no noticeable difference to our broadband speeds.

It was a very quick interesting process. Contractors came along one night with a cherry picker turned the light off at the base then took each old fitting down put the new LED one up and turned it back on, then moved onto the next light. We noticed the light outside change from orange to dark then to white and looked out to watch the process. Took about 7 min a light. By the next day they had all been changed in several streets around.

The light is much whiter and brighter at street level but much darker above the light height.
Standard User MHC
(sensei) Tue 02-Jan-18 12:45:57
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Re: LED streetlights - any experience


[re: kitcat] [link to this post]
 
How close are the drop wires in your case?


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M H C


taurus excreta cerebrum vincit
Standard User 961a
(committed) Tue 02-Jan-18 12:52:27
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Re: LED streetlights - any experience


[re: Zarjaz] [link to this post]
 
Made no difference here when LED was installed. BT speeds have actually increased since
Administrator MrSaffron
(staff) Tue 02-Jan-18 13:28:31
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Re: LED streetlights - any experience


[re: MHC] [link to this post]
 
The LED itself should be zero issue, the driving electronics might be, but if well designed circuitry then should be no issues at all. Installing cheap ebay level kit is not something a council will be doing, since the pay off for the cost of the upgrade is that lights should last longer and thus less maintenance plus lower power consumption.

Christmas lights was more about your older flashing sets that relied on a metallic strip to flash them and cheap imports with electrically noisy switched mode power supplies.

The author of the above post is a thinkbroadband staff member. It may not constitute an official statement on behalf of thinkbroadband.
Standard User kitcat
(experienced) Tue 02-Jan-18 13:58:02
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Re: LED streetlights - any experience


[re: MHC] [link to this post]
 
MHC

Drop wires are 15-20 foot. from a long span of drop wire.
Standard User MHC
(sensei) Tue 02-Jan-18 14:04:00
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Re: LED streetlights - any experience


[re: MrSaffron] [link to this post]
 
That is in the nice perfect world!

Councils are looking to keep costs down - and may well be sourcing cheaper products (not from ebay - although I do sometimes wonder!) that may not be as well designed or screened. I have come across high end, expensive electronic devices where the noise floor has been very high.


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M H C


taurus excreta cerebrum vincit
Administrator MrSaffron
(staff) Tue 02-Jan-18 15:35:02
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Re: LED streetlights - any experience


[re: MHC] [link to this post]
 
Perhaps every single device we buy and use must go via an EMC chamber before being allowed to be plugged in...

Well designed does not always equate to expensive, i.e. you can do decent designs cheaply.

Am pretty sure of LED street lights were a big RF issue that the radio hams would be shouting, but they already want ADSL/VDSL2 banned.

The author of the above post is a thinkbroadband staff member. It may not constitute an official statement on behalf of thinkbroadband.
Standard User MHC
(sensei) Tue 02-Jan-18 16:02:44
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Re: LED streetlights - any experience


[re: MrSaffron] [link to this post]
 
The way I was taught was that everything should be tested to an adequate level for EMC and EMC rejection, safety (electrical, fire, physical/mechanical) and reliability ... You may be able to to the basic circuit design cheaply, but to prove the design and other aspects plus testing - teh whole design cycle, costs money. Unfortunately, manufacturers these days cut down on what they consider non-essential activities and that can have dire consequences - just look at Hotpoint, Indesit, Creda, Swan And Proline Tumble Dryers.

So, yes, maybe devices should be tested for EMC


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

M H C


taurus excreta cerebrum vincit
Standard User eckiedoo
(fountain of knowledge) Tue 02-Jan-18 16:36:13
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Re: LED streetlights - any experience


[re: MHC] [link to this post]
 
The lights on this estate were changed from Sodium to LED about 4 months back.

Not noticed any interference with Broadband.

All of the phone wiring is underground - not a pole in sight - but not sure whether that would help or hinder.

------------------

A neighbour and I talked with the Council employee doing an inspection leading up to the change.

He stated that the LED light-levels were poorer, so he was choosing locations to have additional lights erected - one alongside my garage.

Not only were the light heads changed; but the existing posts/standards as well, so the actual change-over took about two weeks on a small estate.

The replacement standards were generally placed about 2 to 3 feet from the existing set.

The new standards are also decidedly taller than the old ones, in part explaining the need for extras.

=======================

Over-all, the lighting at ground level appears poorer from the LEDs compared to the Sodium.

This is also particularly noticeable in the town's High Street, where only the light heads were changed.

Where I park each morning at the newsagents, straight broad road etc, appears "black" now under the LEDs compared to earlier when it was reasonably lit by the Sodium lamps.

Also driving is a bit more hazardous, because of the contrast with the brighter car/vehicle lights against the darker appearance of road surface, buildings etc.

Regarding electricity cost savings, I doubt if these will ever recover the costs of the new and extra standards on our estate, totalling about 26.

----------

Those experiences contrast with our bathroom with a 5-bulb overhead bar light.

One "Golf-ball" CFL failed last week and a second was clearly failing.

I replaced those two with corresponding LEDs.

The bathroom has never been as bright before, starting originally with 40 W Tungsten, gradually replaced by CFL; and now moving in to 3 W LED - apparently equivalent to 35 W Tungsten, on the packaging.
Standard User MHC
(sensei) Tue 02-Jan-18 16:42:47
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Re: LED streetlights - any experience


[re: eckiedoo] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by eckiedoo:
The lights on this estate were changed from Sodium to LED about 4 months back.

Not noticed any interference with Broadband.

All of the phone wiring is underground - not a pole in sight - but not sure whether that would help or hinder.
.


Being well away from the LED head reduces any potential RFI or EMC issues, so very unlikely that underground will be affected. As mentioned before, the dropwires here are 20cm or less away so they potential is way higher.


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M H C


taurus excreta cerebrum vincit
Standard User eckiedoo
(fountain of knowledge) Tue 02-Jan-18 17:04:50
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Re: LED streetlights - any experience


[re: MHC] [link to this post]
 
I had in mind that both the electricity supplies to the now-LED street lamps; and the phone wiring could be in close proximity underground - but not obvious.
Standard User MHC
(sensei) Tue 02-Jan-18 17:07:03
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Re: LED streetlights - any experience


[re: eckiedoo] [link to this post]
 
They should be a significant way apart and also whereas there may be some noise on the power lines, that is not as likely to be a problem.

.


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M H C


taurus excreta cerebrum vincit
Standard User ukhardy07
(knowledge is power) Tue 02-Jan-18 17:08:13
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Re: LED streetlights - any experience


[re: MHC] [link to this post]
 
It should be fine, where I am my BT drop cable comes along from roof from the neighbours, then down the house, passes some lights attached to the neighbours house, turns right into my house.

On the roofs we have cables for lights (prob about 5 cables), sky tv cables from sat dishes mounted to the chimneys (looks to be 4 dishes and cables running from that), virgin cables coming alongside the BT wiring (for around 5 houses at least) and one of the business residences runs their cabling for some raindrop effect lights over the roof. I can see it from my loft window, looks messy! There must be bundled 20/25+ cables bundled together over the roof. Weird they have it all on the roof, seems a bit of a cowboy job.

To date, with all that going on, and the wires being bundled we have a solid connection.
Standard User ggremlin
(experienced) Tue 02-Jan-18 18:08:43
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Re: LED streetlights - any experience


[re: MHC] [link to this post]
 
big clive on you tube has done 'tear downs' on several LED street light heads, including some from china, and they all seem to have good screening. but then also remember they are designed to be out in the worst of weathers, and even for the occasional lightning strike wink
Standard User RobertoS
(elder) Tue 02-Jan-18 18:42:29
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Re: LED streetlights - any experience


[re: MHC] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by MHC:
Unfortunately, manufacturers these days cut down on what they consider non-essential activities and that can have dire consequences - just look at Hotpoint, Indesit, Creda, Swan And Proline Tumble Dryers.

So, yes, maybe devices should be tested for EMC
That's an impressive list ..... of brands from a single manufacturer. (Whirlpool).

My broadband basic info/help site - www.robertos.me.uk. Domains, site and mail hosting - Tsohost.
Connection - AAISP Home::1 80/20. 200GB. Sync 74145/13476Kbps @ 600m. BQMs - IPv4 & IPv6
Standard User 69bertie
(member) Tue 02-Jan-18 20:05:42
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Re: LED streetlights - any experience


[re: MHC] [link to this post]
 
Probably much a do about nothing. LED's are not the only things that produce noise. Computers, TV's, fans, indeed most of what you use with electronics produces noise of some sort. You might even find your voltage goes up and down as well. Modern electronic should be well able to handle most of what gets thrown at them. Try borrowing a tester that measure spikes, harmonics etc. You'll have a shock at how 'dirty' your power lines are. You could always buy a 'proper' mains filter with line voltage regulation (cost you about a £100 min. though).

We've had LED lighting for a good 6 months now. One blessing is they turn them off overnight. Does it make any difference to my speeds whether they are on or off. Not one bit. I do know Christmas decorations do though..............

edit.
Oh and btw, they don't always change sodium lamps to LED. Sometimes they turn the lights off altogether. Large areas around these parts that used to be lit are now dark, permanently.

Edited by 69bertie (Tue 02-Jan-18 20:09:29)

Standard User PhilipD
(experienced) Wed 03-Jan-18 08:08:49
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Re: LED streetlights - any experience


[re: MHC] [link to this post]
 
Hi

Put it this way, the power supplies used are a switch mode power supply, and I expect the LED lamp will have a better designed power supply than the ones gathered around your modem, including the very one used to feed power directly into to your modem/router.

The LED lights themselves are in a metal housing for heat dissipation, this also provides very good screening.

It's unlikely you will see any problems with electrical noise, and they may even be an improvement over the sodium designs these replace.

Regards

Phil
Standard User kitcat
(experienced) Wed 03-Jan-18 12:08:22
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Re: LED streetlights - any experience


[re: PhilipD] [link to this post]
 
PhilipD

LED lights do not need heat dissipation the metal is for protection from the environment. LEDs are cold to the touch and such low wattage that they do not heat up the surrounding glass much at all.
Standard User MHC
(sensei) Wed 03-Jan-18 13:19:42
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Re: LED streetlights - any experience


[re: kitcat] [link to this post]
 
It is not the LEDs but the power supply that needs the heatsink and that is also the potential noise source.


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M H C


taurus excreta cerebrum vincit
Standard User danielmec
(newbie) Wed 03-Jan-18 14:29:01
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Re: LED streetlights - any experience


[re: MHC] [link to this post]
 
The LED lights heads will have needed to be CE marked, which for this class of product in includes compliance with the Electromagnetic Compatibility Directive (EMC) 2014/30/EU.

This link has a nice diagram of a few of the standards that feed into the process for this class of device:

https://www.sunpower-uk.com/support/power-supply-saf...

If really concerned, the OP could just submit an FOI request through WhatDoTheyKnow.com for the CE mark details and Declaration of Conformity paperwork to the Council.

Star gazing friends note that LED lighting causes them more of a problem, as they can't just put a notch filter around the frequency of sodium emissions.
Standard User ukhardy07
(knowledge is power) Wed 03-Jan-18 16:28:21
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Re: LED streetlights - any experience


[re: MHC] [link to this post]
 
You would have freaked out in my old place... I think this kind of setup is so common in London in these flats.

We had a front entrance, and on the right hand side a cupboard with everyones electricity meters, some of which were smart meters.

Next to the electricity meters were also the master sockets stacked next to one another for each flat, then extension wiring fed upto the flats, running side by side to the mains electrical wiring + doorbell wiring for each flat. The BT drop cable came from underground next to all of the electrical wiring, so it seemed even outside the flats these things were mixed underground (although possibly not).

In the flats BT has often installed second master sockets.

It had clearly caused problems as some flats (mine included) had the masters in the cupboard cut out, and the wiring in the walls bypassed. My flat had the original master in the cupboard cut out, and then jelly crimps connecting a new cable, which came out from the cupboard, and then ran along the skirting board, and up 4 floors, following the way you walk - rather than using the cabling built in the walls where the electricals run. Another neighbour also shared my cable, there was a BT junction box mid-way, with 2 cables coming out, 1 for me, 1 for them.

When I had an engineer out he tested my original cable, as it was still there, and stated it didn't pass the noise tests. Interestingly most of the flats were still using that setup.

I went to a neighbours, bearing in mind we were 3 buildings down from the exchange and their TalkTalk ADSL2+ was synced at 3Mbps, they had it plugged into their second master lol. I don't remember the exact NM, but it was around 20db, so it seemed banded. Some of the buildings were EO, others were not, my property had 3 addresses on the BT checker, 1 of which showed fibre so I ordered that and it worked out. My flat had 3 masters dotted around, but only 1 connected and worked.

Honestly you see so many in London with syncs as low as 2Mbps. I go to friends all the time and cannot believe the sync. Probably the worst I've seen is in Canary Wharf they had 0.8Mbps and had apparently had BT out and that was all they could get, due to line length. They also had something called Relish, basically 4G unlimited wireless broadband, but that was equally poor. They were in the TEST socket.

I've also seen plenty of new build with glossy master phone sockets, with built in TV ports. Again the syncs usually poor.

Edited by ukhardy07 (Wed 03-Jan-18 16:33:07)

Standard User MHC
(sensei) Wed 03-Jan-18 16:47:31
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Re: LED streetlights - any experience


[re: ukhardy07] [link to this post]
 
I've done enough tidying up of wiring in my time along with managing installing and reworks.

EMI/EMC/EMS/RFI ... are problems I have seen for too many years though bad design, failure to test appropriately, bad manufacture, cost cutting, bad layout, bad installation &c &c. A device can claim CE compliance - but use of te mark is not policed and it is only when challenged anything is done - a standard comment is that CE stands for "Chinese Export".

How about a power supply where the switching transistors were mounted on the heating which formed part of the outer case - wonderful, except it would act as a great radiator. With a street light it is possible there could be EMI at a level which meets spec especially as it is normally intended to be 5m away from other devices but put a cable close by and there is pick up.

Having done some more digging on this the Jury is out - and I will just have to wait and see.


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

M H C


taurus excreta cerebrum vincit
Standard User MatHal
(newbie) Wed 03-Jan-18 19:05:15
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Re: LED streetlights - any experience


[re: MHC] [link to this post]
 
There are TWO CE marks, one of which may well mean China Export and is an inexact copy of the proper one. Many Chinese manufacturers use this second mark and those products may, or may not, pass CE certification.

The issue of interference is related to the switch-mode power supplies used for the LEDs. I've investigated quite a few domestic lamps and found variation in the design of these supplies. However, I've also found lamps that simply connect the LEDs in series across the supply with a dropper capacitor. That type would not cause interference but it is very unlikely the council would employ such a unit as one LED failure would put the lamp out of action - something that's not the case where the LEDs are driven by a power supply.
Switch-mode supplies DO produce radio interference, which can easily be demonstrated by bringing a medium-wave radio close to one and scanning the band. ADSL uses multiple carrier frequencies in the long and medium wave radio bands. Any carriers that are severely affected by interference are not used.
Interference is reduced by the twin-wire design of the wiring back to the exchange, much of which is twisted-pair. It is the excellent design of this wiring that has made it possible to put DSL signals onto phone circuits that were originally designed only for low-frequency audio signals. The drop wire is not normally a twisted pair but a simple twin; it should still be fairly immune to interference, however, as the wavelengths of the radio frequencies used are much much larger than the gap between the conductors. Any pick-up should therefore affect both wires in the pair identically and balance out.
Where there is a poor connection of one wire in a pair there will be an unbalanced situation which will certainly cause RF interference to be picked up so if you do have an issue it would be a good idea to get your connection checked.
Standard User MC31
(member) Wed 03-Jan-18 22:13:17
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Re: LED streetlights - any experience


[re: ukhardy07] [link to this post]
 
That wiring has 100% been put in wrong . A lot guys and so called managers got the "3 Metre rule " plain wrong.IE you should not have NTEs in the ground floor meter room. And 2 master sockets on the same line !

these comments are my own and in no way represent any company that i may or may not be linked too.
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