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Standard User partial
(experienced) Thu 10-May-18 21:53:42
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Is There Demand For Ultra Fast?


[link to this post]
 
For some time I have doubted if there is demand for Ultra Fast.

Think Broadband quotes 'BT Group' results today -

"The economic case for FTTP remains challenging given superfast broadband coverage now exceeds 90% and the majority of end-users are currently only willing to pay a low premium for additional speeds."

So I had a look at some TB Data. RH162HN Lindfield exchange in particular.

This area is interesting as it had 100% sign up for the 'Race to Infinity.' Every single phone line in the exchange registered and this resulted in accelerated superfast enablement.

Furthermore Openreach based on this proven demand, enabled 3 cabinet areas for FTTP only rather than FTTC service.

This FTTP deployment included urban residential, a village high street and fairly long reach rural.

This is one of Openreach's mature FTTP deployments.

Think Broadband speed test maps show these areas not only missing any ultra fast result, they are missing any up to 80 meg results.

Is there really any demand for FTTP? Would these areas be better off if BT used the money to increase payments to staff, pensioners and shareholders who would in turn spend the money in the local economy rather than spending on stuff nobody wants to buy?
Standard User billford
(elder) Thu 10-May-18 22:22:22
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Re: Is There Demand For Ultra Fast?


[re: partial] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by partial:
Would these areas be better off if BT used the money to increase payments to staff, pensioners and shareholders who would in turn spend the money in the local economy rather than spending on stuff nobody wants to buy?
A century or so ago I imagine people were asking the same about electricity to the home...

Bill
A level playing field is level in both directions.

_______________________________________Planes and Boats and ... ______________BQMs: IPv4 IPv6
Administrator MrSaffron
(staff) Thu 10-May-18 22:36:04
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Re: Is There Demand For Ultra Fast?


[re: partial] [link to this post]
 
Demand does vary a lot from area to area, and at the time of the Race to Infinity I did warn about the tendency that was shown by previous on-demand campaigns for registrations to not always be real - hence why some demand schemes take a 'payment'

https://labs.thinkbroadband.com/local/west-sussex,E1...

If you look at the speed test side you can see average speeds for FTTH in an area, and the spread of speeds e.g. in West Sussex the median speed for looks like lots are on Infinity 1

As I've said on social media I suspect the appeal for Vodafone will be Gigabit at sub £30 price point

We need more FTTP but as ever no one wants to pay for it and public is looking at other bills going up while still enjoying what are largely flat wages

The author of the above post is a thinkbroadband staff member. It may not constitute an official statement on behalf of thinkbroadband.


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Administrator MrSaffron
(staff) Thu 10-May-18 22:42:05
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Re: Is There Demand For Ultra Fast?


[re: billford] [link to this post]
 
So if BT is making the wrong commercial choices others will benefit and can fill the void, if the current commercial market is left alone.

The UK has the odd thing of wanting BT to have like the GPO and if thats what the majority of the population want then maybe we need a Government that will renationalise it and other utilities

The author of the above post is a thinkbroadband staff member. It may not constitute an official statement on behalf of thinkbroadband.
Standard User billford
(elder) Thu 10-May-18 22:51:11
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Re: Is There Demand For Ultra Fast?


[re: MrSaffron] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by MrSaffron:
The UK has the odd thing of wanting BT to have like the GPO
I'm old enough to have long memories of the GPO... for all its faults, I'd rather stick with BT.

Bill
A level playing field is level in both directions.

_______________________________________Planes and Boats and ... ______________BQMs: IPv4 IPv6
Standard User MCM
(knowledge is power) Thu 10-May-18 23:27:58
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Re: Is There Demand For Ultra Fast?


[re: billford] [link to this post]
 
I'd rather stick with BT.
As I suspect would anyone who had to deal with the GPO through the 70s and early 80s. An appalling company where one had to wait months for simple new line installs - and that in central London rather than remote rural.
Standard User billford
(elder) Thu 10-May-18 23:41:28
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Re: Is There Demand For Ultra Fast?


[re: MCM] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by MCM:
As I suspect would anyone who had to deal with the GPO through the 70s and early 80s. An appalling company where one had to wait months for simple new line installs - and that in central London rather than remote rural.
I was middling rural at the time... Newbury in Berkshire. I forget the exact date but it wasn't until around mid-70's that we got phones with rotary dials on them rather than picking up the receiver and waiting for the operator.

And they were Trimphones frown.

Bill
A level playing field is level in both directions.

_______________________________________Planes and Boats and ... ______________BQMs: IPv4 IPv6
Administrator MrSaffron
(staff) Fri 11-May-18 09:32:51
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Re: Is There Demand For Ultra Fast?


[re: billford] [link to this post]
 
And also vastly over staffed - though 1970's did see big expansion of copper network, hence the pension burden

The author of the above post is a thinkbroadband staff member. It may not constitute an official statement on behalf of thinkbroadband.
Standard User PaulKirby
(knowledge is power) Fri 11-May-18 09:32:53
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Re: Is There Demand For Ultra Fast?


[re: partial] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by partial:
Is there really any demand for FTTP? Would these areas be better off if BT used the money to increase payments to staff, pensioners and shareholders who would in turn spend the money in the local economy rather than spending on stuff nobody wants to buy?

Well it was the case of staying with a bad copper line that on a good day gave us about 4.5Mbps and on a bad day nothing and a dead line, or FTTP, then we would choose FTTP.
Now if FTTC was available before FTTP then we would of chosen FTTC, but that wasn't the case so we went with FTTP.

Paul

BTBroadband - Ultrafast 2 + FVA
Exchange Name: Ilford Central (LNILC) Cabinet: 24
TBB Speedtest IPv4 | TBB Speedtest IPv6 | Ookla Speedtest | Linksys WRT 3200 ACM (BQM)
Administrator MrSaffron
(staff) Fri 11-May-18 09:37:48
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Re: Is There Demand For Ultra Fast?


[re: PaulKirby] [link to this post]
 
And if you had say 22 to 28 Mbps via VDSL2 how readily would you have upgraded is really the question.

We all exist in our own little bubbles, but the only way I see millions upgrading from VDSL2 to FTTP is if the price is pretty much the same or actually lower. My assumption is that many people are like me seeing bills going up a lot faster than static wages so actually have a lot less now to spend than a few years ago.

Don't get me wrong would love VDSL2 to disappear and UK have 20 million lines of FTTP but the realist part of the brain does see the logistical and financial issues with that.

The author of the above post is a thinkbroadband staff member. It may not constitute an official statement on behalf of thinkbroadband.
Standard User ian72
(eat-sleep-adslguide) Fri 11-May-18 09:44:46
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Re: Is There Demand For Ultra Fast?


[re: MrSaffron] [link to this post]
 
As Paul is on a 330/50 line I suspect he would have upgraded anyway.

However, my brother lives in West Sussex and has had FTTP for over 3 years. He is still on the Infinity 1 package and sees no reason to upgrade and is more representative I think of the country at large. He does gaming, he streams films, etc - he has no interest in 4K because like many "normal" people he doesn't really see a difference in video quality. In the end he could afford a larger package but doesn't see it as making any material improvement to the service so doesn't bother.
Administrator MrSaffron
(staff) Fri 11-May-18 10:07:08
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Re: Is There Demand For Ultra Fast?


[re: ian72] [link to this post]
 
And with consulting hat, the fact that 73% of Virgin Media customers are on 100 Mbps or faster is largely the result of 'free' speed upgrades rather than decisions to buy that and the classic marketing tricks that mean if you sell three products, the middle priced one is invariably the one people will choose

The author of the above post is a thinkbroadband staff member. It may not constitute an official statement on behalf of thinkbroadband.
Standard User PaulKirby
(knowledge is power) Fri 11-May-18 10:27:13
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Re: Is There Demand For Ultra Fast?


[re: MrSaffron] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by MrSaffron:
And if you had say 22 to 28 Mbps via VDSL2 how readily would you have upgraded is really the question.

Well it would depend on the price, and our price budget, granted on ADSL we was paying £5 per month, so that was about £1 per Mbit we were getting.

Looking at the prices for FTTC where we are estimated to get between Range B: 32.4 - 54.5Mbps or Range A: 46 - 67.1Mbps £32 for Infinity, £42 for Infinity 2 (both unlimited) Infinity works out to be ~£0.60 per Mbit and ~£0.63 per Mbit.
So going with FTTC we would be better off in speed and price.

Now would we move from FTTC (if we already had it) erm, in our case yes, we have very bad copper lines that results in our line dropping out dead when it rains heavy, so we wanted to get off our copper line which is also why we moved over to FVA.

The price we were paying for FTTP was ~£32 (£21 discount) would be £53 per month (without line rental), we recently moved over to Ultrafast 2 due to funny enough it was cheaper than Infinity 4 and had no price increase after the 18 months, where as with Infinity 4 there was.

In reply to a post by MrSaffron:
We all exist in our own little bubbles, but the only way I see millions upgrading from VDSL2 to FTTP is if the price is pretty much the same or actually lower. My assumption is that many people are like me seeing bills going up a lot faster than static wages so actually have a lot less now to spend than a few years ago.

Well we had a set price we put aside for broadband and if the higher tier prices were too high we would of gone to a lower speed.
Well there is a few of us here that all chipped in for the broadband, if it was just me then I would go with Infinity 2 due to that would be my price range.

In reply to a post by MrSaffron:
Don't get me wrong would love VDSL2 to disappear and UK have 20 million lines of FTTP but the realist part of the brain does see the logistical and financial issues with that.

Well funny that you say that, when I was speaking to BT (one of the several departments I got passed to) with the issue with upgrading to Ultrafast 2 a couple of them were saying that they do plan to roll out FTTP everywhere, but this all takes time and money to achieve, but that's their end goal.

And that FTTC was the stop gap that gets the minimal speeds increased and the Fibres closer, which leaves the final distance cheaper later on.

Now whether this is correct, it does make sense.

Paul

BTBroadband - Ultrafast 2 + FVA
Exchange Name: Ilford Central (LNILC) Cabinet: 24
TBB Speedtest IPv4 | TBB Speedtest IPv6 | Ookla Speedtest | Linksys WRT 3200 ACM (BQM)
Administrator MrSaffron
(staff) Fri 11-May-18 10:38:15
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Re: Is There Demand For Ultra Fast?


[re: PaulKirby] [link to this post]
 
The FTTP everywhere end goal has been talked about years ago and several times since, but its a long term goal

But senior staff wanting and knowing its the end goal versus being given the money to make it happen today are two very different things.

CityFibre is burning cash currently but holds out prospects of a big payback in the future and the early investors have already got that it looks like with the proposed acquisition.

To date I have not seen any Vodafone FTTP like speed test results, so while lots of talk of building FTTH and they seem to be it is not turning into solid customers yet.

The author of the above post is a thinkbroadband staff member. It may not constitute an official statement on behalf of thinkbroadband.
Standard User PaulKirby
(knowledge is power) Fri 11-May-18 10:38:52
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Re: Is There Demand For Ultra Fast?


[re: ian72] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by ian72:
As Paul is on a 330/50 line I suspect he would have upgraded anyway.

However, my brother lives in West Sussex and has had FTTP for over 3 years. He is still on the Infinity 1 package and sees no reason to upgrade and is more representative I think of the country at large. He does gaming, he streams films, etc - he has no interest in 4K because like many "normal" people he doesn't really see a difference in video quality. In the end he could afford a larger package but doesn't see it as making any material improvement to the service so doesn't bother.

Like I have said to Andrews reply, if it was just me here and I had access to FTTP, then I would of gone with Infinity 2, but I was really more interested in the upload than the download.

I also have a neighbour that is on Infinity where BT has given them a free upgrade to Infinity 2 speeds, they have no reason or plans to upgrade to a faster speed.

They did say if they did upgrade to a faster speed it would have to be worthwhile price wise.
Like if you are paying £42 for Infinity 2 or you could pay £55 for 152Mbps (Ultrafast 1) or £60 for 330Mbps (Ultrafast 2) its all down to your budget and what you are willing to pay for.

Paul

BTBroadband - Ultrafast 2 + FVA
Exchange Name: Ilford Central (LNILC) Cabinet: 24
TBB Speedtest IPv4 | TBB Speedtest IPv6 | Ookla Speedtest | Linksys WRT 3200 ACM (BQM)
Standard User PaulKirby
(knowledge is power) Fri 11-May-18 10:41:34
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Re: Is There Demand For Ultra Fast?


[re: MrSaffron] [link to this post]
 
I totally agree.

Paul

BTBroadband - Ultrafast 2 + FVA
Exchange Name: Ilford Central (LNILC) Cabinet: 24
TBB Speedtest IPv4 | TBB Speedtest IPv6 | Ookla Speedtest | Linksys WRT 3200 ACM (BQM)
Standard User ian72
(eat-sleep-adslguide) Fri 11-May-18 10:59:52
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Re: Is There Demand For Ultra Fast?


[re: PaulKirby] [link to this post]
 
Like if you are paying £42 for Infinity 2 or you could pay £55 for 152Mbps (Ultrafast 1) or £60 for 330Mbps (Ultrafast 2) its all down to your budget and what you are willing to pay for
That is the crux of the matter. As many posts here are looking at the cheapest supplier they can find for VDSL then it is unlikely they would pay much more for higher speeds (especially as for most people they wouldn't notice any significant change from those higher speeds).
Standard User sheephouse
(regular) Fri 11-May-18 11:25:43
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Re: Is There Demand For Ultra Fast?


[re: partial] [link to this post]
 
Well, I'd happily pay for Ultra Fast, or Super Fast, or I'd even settle for Fast. I'm currently spending ~£100 per month to get a just about usable broadband (by load balancing ADSL and 4G). I'd pay more for a better solution. I can't quite justify a leased line, but I have looked into it, and almost went for it. So there is demand - but not necessarily in the places they are building the networks.
Standard User MCM
(knowledge is power) Fri 11-May-18 12:19:14
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Re: Is There Demand For Ultra Fast?


[re: sheephouse] [link to this post]
 
I understand the problems you are having in getting what for you is acceptable broadband and I would probably be one of those who would opt for higher speeds, especially upload, if available. However my experience here on a development that paid for a network rearrangement and the provision of an AIO FTTC cab is that whilst many wanted faster speeds than the few Mbps they were previously getting only a small minority of residents have signed up for other than the slowest FTTC service available. From speaking to my neighbours this isn't so much due to cost but rather that the lower speed packages meet their current needs.
Standard User bowdon
(committed) Fri 11-May-18 13:36:48
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Re: Is There Demand For Ultra Fast?


[re: partial] [link to this post]
 
This seems to be a question that comes up a lot. But it misses out on some details.

I think when comparing ADSL/FTTC to FTTP most people are looking at it from a purely speed factor. The other major factor is the different technology on how this is delivered. Also the amount of faults will drop when we're all on a proper full fibre network.

As far as people not paying for the higher service. I think that could be put down to two things. 1. Can a line actually reach infinity 2 speeds, and if so by how much? The second thing is real world line quality.

There are probably many lines that are listed on the dsl checker that says they can reach Infinity 2 speeds but in reality they might get 60MB. So technically you could order Infinity 2, but in reality you're only paying for 8MB above Infinity 1. So on the stats sheet it looks like you chose to not pick the higher speed.

I think the mentality of people only wanting to pay for cheap broadband is a chicken and egg situation. When marketing is always pushing cheap prices on packages that can do everything you want then the whole question becomes more about price than having a better product. I think as time goes along more and more people are becoming educated about ISP's and broadband just like they have done about the Internet.

The paying cheap point is interesting in that people are buying other technology that they don't need and is way overpriced. But they still buy it. So if this only paying for cheap broadband phenomenon is going on then it is uniquely only happening in broadband and we should ask why.

I think this issue is interesting and well worth it to keep monitoring situations. But there is a real danger of using PAST statistics to drive future technologies. People don't like moving to new things. That's a general point on anything. Very few people embrace new things. We could use the same arguments about adsl2+ which can go 'upto 24MB'. So if the people pushing this argument won we wouldn't have had FTTC, as currently 24MB would be suitable for peoples needs.

We know what is coming down the line in other technologies. 4K TV's are a thing these days. There is a gradual moving to IPTV channels, especially with Sky embracing Internet channels along side their satalite dish. We also know everyone and their grandmother is going to be online soon. We're approaching the point now that the oldest generation of a family will be tech savvy. We know the gaming world are wanting to delivery games you can play through a 'dumb' terminal, so you dont have games loaded on your pc/console, but play them remotely over the net.

If network providers don't embrace full fibre technology then they are going to be left behind. Whatever peoples habits are a network builder as to keep ahead of the game. If the people in charge don't like embracing change then they need to work somewhere else imho.

Demon => Freeserve => Pipex => Be => Sky => BT Infinity 2
Standard User ian72
(eat-sleep-adslguide) Fri 11-May-18 13:55:36
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Re: Is There Demand For Ultra Fast?


[re: sheephouse] [link to this post]
 
A quick question for you.

If someone came along and said you can have 80/20 for £40 a month but you can also have the option of 200/20 for £100 a month which would you go with? You've said you would happily pay over £100 a month for a decent connection but if another option was available for less would you still pay the higher amount?
Standard User ian72
(eat-sleep-adslguide) Fri 11-May-18 14:00:52
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Re: Is There Demand For Ultra Fast?


[re: bowdon] [link to this post]
 
Many of the reasons you state for higher speeds have been on the horizon or available for a while. However, the vast majority still go for the cheapest they can get (and for many the factor for paying more is support rather than speed).

4K for most people I know is irrelevant - they don't buy 4K players, they don't by 4K blu-rays and they don't pay extra for 4K streaming services. Most, if they have a 4K TV, only have 4K TVs because that is becoming the default for an internet connected TV.

I deal with a lot of different people and whilst some are tech natives that embrace 4K and all that most just don't care. Many of them don't go out of the way to select an HD TV channel over SD.

It is possible that these things will become more mainstream in future but people currently, in my general experience, don't want to pay more for it.

Also, the older generation will not be "tech savvy". Most people of any age are not "tech savvy". They may know how to use the Internet but they still don't understand it and most still have no idea why 1Gb is better than 40Mb and until someone can give them a driving reason to upgrade they just won't.
Standard User Malwaremike
(committed) Fri 11-May-18 15:52:21
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Re: Is There Demand For Ultra Fast?


[re: ian72] [link to this post]
 
Interesting discussion on subjects I have often wondered about. I have the impression that some enthusiasts on this fascinating and helpful forum want high speeds for the sake of having them, rather like the amateur radio fans of my younger days. Our ADSL2 at 13Mb does all we want for £28 a month, including unlimited phone calls and occasional catch-ups via iPlayer. I appreciate that some require greater speed though I can't understand why anyone wants to download films etc for hours on end. My nephew proudly shows me some 90 hours of recordings on a hard drive but then admits that he hasn't time to watch it!

If I understand correctly BT/Openreach is also considering widespread FTTP which raises the question of where all these ducts are going to be placed. Virgin Media has recently cut our footways to ribbons to install fibre to every house in the town, but nobody in our community group wants it, most being happy on VDSL at 20/30Mb and around £35/£40 per month. I was amazed to see that the Virgin cabling is only 300mm/one foot down and even that produced problems with other services including my own water supply which was severed. Yes, yes, water pipes are supposed to be 600mm down, like the gas pipes and other utilities, but sometimes they aren't ...
Administrator MrSaffron
(staff) Fri 11-May-18 17:14:21
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Re: Is There Demand For Ultra Fast?


[re: Malwaremike] [link to this post]
 
If there is existing Openreach duct that is used for FTTP, or overhead delivery if lines arrive via poles today.

NOTE: On the FTTP roll-out so far it is going to
a) New build homes
b) Areas where gap funding is paying to ensure superfast option
c) Commercial areas i.e. generally city centres where Exchange Only lines exist i.e. no VDSL2
d) Business estates

Going to areas with existing reasonable VDSL2 speeds is a much longer way down the list, so I'd not be expecting them to come to you with the 3 million forecast for end of 2020

The author of the above post is a thinkbroadband staff member. It may not constitute an official statement on behalf of thinkbroadband.
Standard User sheephouse
(regular) Fri 11-May-18 17:22:46
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Re: Is There Demand For Ultra Fast?


[re: ian72] [link to this post]
 
I would go for the 200/20 for £100, but I'd pay even more for say 80/80 - the upload is at least as important as the download for me. But I also want low latency, static IP (IPv4 minimum, preferably IPv6 too) although I could use AAISP's L2TP if necessary, no ports blocked, configurable reverse DNS, and allowance >200GB/month.
Oh, and I said I currently pay ~£100 and would pay more for a better solution, but not that I'm happy
paying that much wink

Edited by sheephouse (Fri 11-May-18 17:31:02)

Standard User bowdon
(committed) Fri 11-May-18 17:41:16
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Re: Is There Demand For Ultra Fast?


[re: ian72] [link to this post]
 
The argument you are making is what BT OR was making a few years ago. Saying why do people need faster speeds. We'd all still be on ADSL2+ (and it took BTOR around 8 years after it had come out to implement it on their exchange equipment).

I think the price issue is more down to market manipulation rather than a true product value. It's well known that prices are too low. I think part of that is ofcoms fault and part of it is because most of us don't get what we pay for on the copper network.

In the 90s I was paying around £300 to £500 per 3 months in the dialup days. I'm sure all the 'oldies' lol remember the days of being a kid and running up your parents phone bill.

If I'm prepared to pay double per month for a full fibre connection, and if that is expanded across the country then we'd only need half the amount of internet users online in UK to equal out the current system.

Demon => Freeserve => Pipex => Be => Sky => BT Infinity 2
Administrator MrSaffron
(staff) Fri 11-May-18 17:48:51
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Re: Is There Demand For Ultra Fast?


[re: bowdon] [link to this post]
 
Willingness to pay double what you do now will be music to the ears of Vodafone

But given the reluctance of so many to upgrade from ADSL2+ to cable or VDSL2 where available, and that even in buildings with a choice of ADSL2+ or Hyperoptic its still a long way from everyone upgrading the willingness of some to pay more does not seem to be a standard thing.

The author of the above post is a thinkbroadband staff member. It may not constitute an official statement on behalf of thinkbroadband.
Standard User 69bertie
(member) Fri 11-May-18 17:57:58
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Re: Is There Demand For Ultra Fast?


[re: ian72] [link to this post]
 
Very true. I pay for 80/20 Fibre unlimited and that currently does me but I keep on finding that things are using more and more. Yesterday, I downloaded a Windows update, 925mb if I remember right. Took about 3 mins or so. On the old ADSL, I'd have been waiting hours. And we have 3 boxes that will have that update.

Once I used to think 10Gb a month was ample. Within the first month of us going over to fibre we were nudging 200Gb. We might go up and down slightly but that has become a norm for us and we haven't even started downloading 4K stuff yet. I don't ever download films, just stream what we want to watch, no buffering etc. We also make loads of free video calls to the other side of the world, brilliant. Makes the landline a bit of a dinosaur. Never use it.

Price wise I'm paying about £10 more than when we were on ADSL (1.2Mb/s). Faster speeds coupled with unlimited is a no brainer, even if it costs just a bit more. I can guarantee you will use the speeds. But then you look at one ISP ad, faster speeds, queue dad playing game, girl singing to her friends etc and in the small print, 30GB a month cap. Dream on.

So yes, faster fibre, bring it on but don't go too mad with the price or the cap.

Standard User RobertoS
(elder) Fri 11-May-18 17:59:05
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Re: Is There Demand For Ultra Fast?


[re: bowdon] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by bowdon:
The argument you are making is what BT OR was making a few years ago. Saying why do people need faster speeds. We'd all still be on ADSL2+ (and it took BTOR around 8 years after it had come out to implement it on their exchange equipment).
The ownership and installation of ADSL2+ equipment in exchanges is nothing to do with Openreach. Other than the technical aspects of carrrying out the job as a contractor to BT Wholesale and LLU companies.

My broadband basic info/help site - www.robertos.me.uk. Domains, site and mail hosting - Tsohost.
Connection - AAISP Home::1 80/20. 200GB. Sync 67717/13670Kbps @ 600m. BQMs - IPv4 & IPv6
Standard User bsdnazz
(regular) Fri 11-May-18 18:17:36
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Re: Is There Demand For Ultra Fast?


[re: partial] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by partial:
"The economic case for FTTP remains challenging given superfast broadband coverage now exceeds 90% and the majority of end-users are currently only willing to pay a low premium for additional speeds."


This is a key consideration. FTTC can be pretty fast (I have full 80/20) but I'd not pay much for a connection two, three of even ten times as fast. Once a connection is plenty fast enough for typical use the extra bandwidth does get you very much.
Standard User partial
(experienced) Fri 11-May-18 19:03:18
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Re: Is There Demand For Ultra Fast?


[re: bowdon] [link to this post]
 
Thanks for your thoughts.

I understand the argument that punters may not wish to pay extra for 80 services when they only get 60. So they choose 40.

I'm looking at an area where punters can get 80 or indeed 300 on FTTP with no drop off for line length and they still don't buy it.
Standard User partial
(experienced) Fri 11-May-18 19:11:36
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Re: Is There Demand For Ultra Fast?


[re: Malwaremike] [link to this post]
 
Anybody who is time served in the local loops will know that chucking stuff unprotected in the ground in shallow trenches is madness.

Especially when said plant does not show up on a common or garden cable detector.

It will end in tears. It always does.
Standard User RobertoS
(elder) Fri 11-May-18 20:52:00
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Re: Is There Demand For Ultra Fast?


[re: partial] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by partial:
I'm looking at an area where punters can get 80 or indeed 300 on FTTP with no drop off for line length and they still don't buy it.
Surely the point is that a large number of people will opt for 40 or 80Mbps on FTTP and simply upgrade (as liitle as possible) if they find it inadequate?

Take a household with high income and three kids controlling their parents, yes 300Mbps makes sense. But it is hard to see how 80Mbps or perhaps 152Mbps is going to be insufficient for more than 5%?

My broadband basic info/help site - www.robertos.me.uk. Domains, site and mail hosting - Tsohost.
Connection - AAISP Home::1 80/20. 200GB. Sync 67717/13670Kbps @ 600m. BQMs - IPv4 & IPv6
Standard User techguy
(experienced) Fri 11-May-18 21:24:49
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Re: Is There Demand For Ultra Fast?


[re: MrSaffron] [link to this post]
 
While cost is undoubtedly a factor there is not as of yet a so called 'killer app' that demands an ultra fast connection.

For most, a stable 8 or 12 Mbps connection is probably enough to allow them to stream a bit, use a PC to browse/game and to use a tablet simultaneously so why pay more if you don't need to?

From a personal perspective I went from an ADSL connection (which ran between 3.5Mbps to 4 Mbps because of line length) to FTTP because of work as I'd ummmed and ahhed about the cost for quite a while however in my current job I support a lot of home workers who have to keep working irrespective of if the main office I work out of is closed due to weather or not.

In December it looked like a fair amount of snow was going to be dumped on MK over the weekend and while it is fairly stable most of the year, I tended to notice that my connection flapped a bit while people were setting up Christmas lights and sure enough I got home on Friday evening to find my connection going up and down which it continued to do for most of Saturday and Sunday and I was dreading having to explain this to my boss by phone on the Monday if the office was closed so it kind of forced my hand.

Fortunately the snow held off but I didn't want to run that risk again so I rang Zen (whom I've dealt with for a number of years and I've found to be the best support wise) and placed the upgrade order. but I did go for the cheapest package which was at the time of writing this 39.5 Mbps down 9.5 Mbps up and that is ample for me and those in my household

Virgin (ADSL) => Namesco => Newnet => O2 => Plusnet => Zen => Newnet => Zen => Freeola => Vivaciti (using O2 Wholesale DSL) => Xilo (C&W Wholesale) => Xilo (O2 Wholesale) => Xilo (TT Wholesale due to O2 Wholesale closure) => Zen LLU => Zen FTTP (39.5 Mbps down, 9.5 Mbps up)
Router: Netgear D6400
Note: I don't lay turf for anyone. astro or otherwise, all views and opinions expressed are my own based on experience.

Edited by techguy (Fri 11-May-18 21:27:04)

Standard User Michael_Chare
(fountain of knowledge) Fri 11-May-18 23:21:27
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Re: Is There Demand For Ultra Fast?


[re: partial] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by partial:
Is there really any demand for FTTP? Would these areas be better off if BT used the money to increase payments to staff, pensioners and shareholders who would in turn spend the money in the local economy rather than spending on stuff nobody wants to buy?

There is a demand for FTTP which is why companies such as Gigaclear who specialize in rural areas and Hyperoptic who specialize in multi occupancy urban dwellings can succeed.

What each of us choose depends on price and what the alternatives are.

Michael Chare
Standard User Zarjaz
(eat-sleep-adslguide) Sat 12-May-18 08:14:04
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Re: Is There Demand For Ultra Fast?


[re: bowdon] [link to this post]
 
I agree with the last paragraph - except in Openreach’s case they are driven by the CP’s demands ... so all the CP’s hold off it makes Openreach feel more tentative about its plans to roll out full fibre.

There seems little doubt that demand for more bandwidth will only rise, but nobody wants to pay for it ...... no customer demand = no CP demand = no drive for full fibre

Catch 22

Standard User R0NSKI
(fountain of knowledge) Sat 12-May-18 14:04:57
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Re: Is There Demand For Ultra Fast?


[re: partial] [link to this post]
 
We've just had Virgin Media installed in our area, and pretty much as soon as it went live I signed up to the fastest package available - Vivid 350.

I've only gone for broadband, no phone or TV, only reason I went for Vivid 350 was for the upload which even on the fastest package they do is only 20Mbps, but it is fastest enough for us and a huge improvement over the 42/6Mpbs on FTTC

If there was a cheaper package with the same upload speed then I would of gone for that.

Overall I would have rather stayed away from Virgin, but it was the only way to get a decent upload on a single line.

Standard User bowdon
(committed) Sat 12-May-18 18:22:07
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Re: Is There Demand For Ultra Fast?


[re: RobertoS] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by RobertoS:
The ownership and installation of ADSL2+ equipment in exchanges is nothing to do with Openreach. Other than the technical aspects of carrrying out the job as a contractor to BT Wholesale and LLU companies.


On the last line I was making reference when BeThere ISP was around and we had ADSL2+ for many years before any other ISP started using it, including BT's own ISP. I didn't realise this until it came up in conversation recently. I had assumed everyone was using ADSL2+ when BeThere was, but it seems it wasnt a thing until around 8 years later.

In reply to a post by Zarjaz:
I agree with the last paragraph - except in Openreach’s case they are driven by the CP’s demands ... so all the CP’s hold off it makes Openreach feel more tentative about its plans to roll out full fibre.

There seems little doubt that demand for more bandwidth will only rise, but nobody wants to pay for it ...... no customer demand = no CP demand = no drive for full fibre

Catch 22


I understand the dilemma. You're right about the catch22 situation.

I would still like to see the original plan for G.fast on poles idea along with full fibre networks. I think G.fast in that form would have satisfied the hunger for speed while keeping costs low.

Demon => Freeserve => Pipex => Be => Sky => BT Infinity 2
Standard User Zarjaz
(eat-sleep-adslguide) Sun 13-May-18 06:52:09
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Re: Is There Demand For Ultra Fast?


[re: bowdon] [link to this post]
 
I’m sorry, but I disagree, g.fast, even to DP’s would still only be a stop gap, squeezing the the last few drops out of the legacy network....

Straight to FTTP I say, cut out the ‘middle man’.

Standard User derekdel
(committed) Sun 13-May-18 08:49:29
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Re: Is There Demand For Ultra Fast?


[re: Zarjaz] [link to this post]
 
Absolutely!

‘Is there a demand for ultrafast?’

The simple answer to that is a wholehearted YES!

Technology and demand for a truly ‘ultrafast’ service has increased greatly over the last few years at expedited speeds. [no pun] For instance I have 6 x 4K Tv’s in my home in various rooms, PC’s, Sky Q, Apple TV and a plethora of other internet connected bandwidth demanding devices. Obviously not all running at the same time. I am lucky to get 30Mbps on each of the 2 fibre lines I pay for and try to load balance all the devices over 2 separate hard wired networks, unfortunately a 4K Netflix movie can take that full 30 Mbps to load properly stripping bandwidth from other areas.

With interconnected devices subsequently progressing further as their respective technology advances we are finding ourselves stuck in a techie rut with no obvious advances in my area for years to come. I am left powerless and connected to a dinosaur while BTW try throwing every last bastion of bandwidth down ancient copper tails. Not to mention the congestion problem my local exchange suffers from on a yearly basis. I won’t mention the fact that I am surrounded by huawei cabinets but I am connected to an ECI cab twice as far away as the nearest huawei cab.....

There are comments on here about new build properties equipped with FTTP yet unfortunately that is not the case in general, it may be in some areas.
So who is going to pay for all the new glass?
Who is at fault for not upgrading the network to new builds?
Who is going to upgrade and pay for all the existing pairs to be replaced?

Questions I can’t answer so therefore I wont be dragged into a ‘who what where’ argument.

One thing for sure, and I said this 10 years ago, if we fail to keep up with current technologies we will be extinct, just like the dinosaurs!

Like others on here I had a quote request from Cerberus and touching on £15,400+ VAT is a ridiculous amount of money especially as it will then offer my neighbours native FTTP. In reality I am kicking myself and angry at wholesale for not allowing me to have the option of FTTPoD earlier last year before they introduced the new price tier system. I would have paid for the fibre then but not now.
If they made it cheaper then more people would pay for it therefore reducing the demand on thier copper network so surely this would be a better idea.


So.... is Ultrafast worth it....... YES YES YES. Please!
Standard User partial
(experienced) Sun 13-May-18 09:31:45
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Re: Is There Demand For Ultra Fast?


[re: Zarjaz] [link to this post]
 
We'll soon get to test demand as gfast has been installed all over the larger exchanges in my manor. Hundreds of them.

If punters don't buy gfast faster speeds like their not buying it where fttp and or Virgin is already available, do you advise massive expansion of fttp

I thnk fibre is showing all the signs of a bubble. Lot of noise, speculation, firms borrowing huge sums but few punters.
Standard User Andrue
(eat-sleep-adslguide) Sun 13-May-18 09:34:21
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Re: Is There Demand For Ultra Fast?


[re: billford] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by billford:
In reply to a post by MrSaffron:
The UK has the odd thing of wanting BT to have like the GPO
I'm old enough to have long memories of the GPO... for all its faults, I'd rather stick with BT.
Indeed. To say nothing of why anyone older than 40 would think any government capable of running a large, complex and technologically advanced telephone network.

In fact it often amazes me how many people think the answer to any problem is government control. Is there anything any government has done that would encourage such optimism? Governments should be as small as possible and should only take over from private enterprise at the point of failure. They should be seen as an owner/operator of last resort. And BT is far, far from being a failure. Based on internet take up and usage over the last twenty five years it's actually shown itself to be quite capable.

---
Andrue Cope
Brackley, UK
Standard User Andrue
(eat-sleep-adslguide) Sun 13-May-18 09:37:01
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Re: Is There Demand For Ultra Fast?


[re: billford] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by billford:
In reply to a post by MCM:
As I suspect would anyone who had to deal with the GPO through the 70s and early 80s. An appalling company where one had to wait months for simple new line installs - and that in central London rather than remote rural.
I was middling rural at the time... Newbury in Berkshire. I forget the exact date but it wasn't until around mid-70's that we got phones with rotary dials on them rather than picking up the receiver and waiting for the operator.

And they were Trimphones frown.
My family lived on a 'recent build' in Exeter in the mid 70s and we had a party line. And I wasn't allowed to call my friends very often because it was so expensive. I had one friend who moved to Plymouth and that was a once a month treat (and only then because the PO had a special pricing deal and dialling code for the two cities). Assuming I could get through. And assuming the call quality and duration was adequate.

---
Andrue Cope
Brackley, UK

Edited by Andrue (Sun 13-May-18 09:37:47)

Standard User Andrue
(eat-sleep-adslguide) Sun 13-May-18 09:38:58
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Re: Is There Demand For Ultra Fast?


[re: MrSaffron] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by MrSaffron:
And also vastly over staffed - though 1970's did see big expansion of copper network, hence the pension burden
It's to be hoped, then, that the FTTP expansion doesn't cause the same thing to happen :-/

---
Andrue Cope
Brackley, UK
Administrator MrSaffron
(staff) Sun 13-May-18 10:01:44
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Re: Is There Demand For Ultra Fast?


[re: Andrue] [link to this post]
 
If you join Openreach today then I'd look on it as a 10 to 15 year career, i.e. once fttp largely all built they can scale back

The author of the above post is a thinkbroadband staff member. It may not constitute an official statement on behalf of thinkbroadband.
Standard User billford
(elder) Sun 13-May-18 10:53:26
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Re: Is There Demand For Ultra Fast?


[re: Andrue] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by Andrue:
... a large, complex and technologically advanced telephone network.
If we still had the GPO any references to fibre would be passed to the dieticians at the Min. of Ag. tongue

Bill
A level playing field is level in both directions.

_______________________________________Planes and Boats and ... ______________BQMs: IPv4 IPv6
Standard User RobertoS
(elder) Sun 13-May-18 11:18:36
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Re: Is There Demand For Ultra Fast?


[re: partial] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by partial:
We'll soon get to test demand as gfast has been installed all over the larger exchanges in my manor. Hundreds of them.

If punters don't buy gfast faster speeds like their not buying it where fttp and or Virgin is already available, do you advise massive expansion of fttp
The uptake of G.Fast will be minimal, as to get it you already need to be on at least 70Mbps FTTC. It will not test demand until it is rolled out to those who get far less from FTTC, and it looks like Openreach have seen sense for once by apparently dropping the idea in favour of going the whole hog.

To get G.Fast to the really slow FTTC areas they will be doing 85% of the costly part of the FTTP job.
I thnk fibre is showing all the signs of a bubble. Lot of noise, speculation, firms borrowing huge sums but few punters.
Signs of a bubble? Where do you get that idea from? You suggest we stick with last mile copper for ever?

If you mean gigabit fibre, then for the next five years you may have a point. Any forecasts of demand beyond that will be less accurate than weather forecasts that far ahead. Weather forecasts do at least have some sort of basic predictability. Climate.

My broadband basic info/help site - www.robertos.me.uk. Domains, site and mail hosting - Tsohost.
Connection - AAISP Home::1 80/20. 200GB. Sync 67717/13670Kbps @ 600m. BQMs - IPv4 & IPv6
Administrator MrSaffron
(staff) Sun 13-May-18 11:44:18
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Re: Is There Demand For Ultra Fast?


[re: RobertoS] [link to this post]
 
Bubble - the £500m sale price of CityFibre - or £500 per FTTP customer even before you connect them. The money there is not on the consumer FTTP, but 5G nodes and the council/large business stuff. The danger is the speculators may start numerous FTTP operators in the hope of being hovered up, i.e. very good at PR and using up lots of cash but not delivering a lot. Now if burning cash gets the UK to a high percentage of FTTP that would be a good thing, but the probability is that this burning will happen in the urban areas i.e. overlap cable networks. The risk with the burning route is that it leaves lot of debt and consolidation and eventually a monopoly emerges with the classic price rises - e.g. Sky satellite TV

G.fast is a way of competing with Virgin Media in the short term, hence size of footprint since it will stop them saying 6 times (or similar) faster than BT and if the latency performance of G.fast is good it might win some back from the cable operator.

On FTTP - contrary to an Ofcom boss, if Openreach deliver the 3 million FTTP they are still in 2020 likely to be the largest FTTP operator in the UK. What happens then is a good question, i.e. will Vodafone take up their 5 million FTTP option, and will Openreach go even further with the FTTP rollout.

Liberty Global so far seems to be not too worried, as if it was DOCSIS 3.1 would be a UK priority.

Bubble also applies to some of the magic around FTTP e.g. zero buffering of video, maybe if you budget on 100 Mbps per customer at peak times, but at some point even with a point to point network capacity is shared. We've even seen some suggest no peak time slow downs.

The author of the above post is a thinkbroadband staff member. It may not constitute an official statement on behalf of thinkbroadband.
Standard User partial
(experienced) Sun 13-May-18 13:24:56
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Re: Is There Demand For Ultra Fast?


[re: MrSaffron] [link to this post]
 
To be fair, cityfibre do have a load of albeit badly installed network for that £500.

Will be interesting to see what the owners of Hyperoptic get if they sell as they are very light on physical assets.

Maybe Sky share my thinking as they have very deep pockets and appear to be keeping well out of the bubble.
Standard User ian72
(eat-sleep-adslguide) Mon 14-May-18 09:12:22
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Re: Is There Demand For Ultra Fast?


[re: RobertoS] [link to this post]
 
Installing G.Fast or FTTP in areas that currently have low speeds is still not going to see people jumping from low speeds to top speeds. What it will mean is that it will allow people to get the 40/10 and 80/20 tiers at a reasonable cost - but that doesn't bring BT any more revenue than they get now on VDSL.

There is obviously demand for higher speeds but only from a small percentage of people. To build a whole FTTP network that only brings extra income from a small group is not cost effective. Personally I would upgrade to faster if I could but it wouldn't change my life and wouldn't really let me do things I can't now, I would just do it because that's how I am. Most people wouldn't bother - if they would then there wouldn't be many people on a 40/10 connection with a line that could do 80/20.
Standard User Icaras
(experienced) Mon 14-May-18 10:37:38
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Re: Is There Demand For Ultra Fast?


[re: MrSaffron] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by MrSaffron:
If you join Openreach today then I'd look on it as a 10 to 15 year career, i.e. once fttp largely all built they can scale back


I hope not! Lots of staff retire or leave every year so if they’re smart about it they can just start not replacing leavers in a few years and it will level out. So much of the last part of the new FTTP build will be overhead that you’ll always need people to repair that when it goes wrong.

Icaras
Standard User Ignitionnet
(knowledge is power) Mon 14-May-18 10:44:38
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Re: Is There Demand For Ultra Fast?


[re: bowdon] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by bowdon:
I would still like to see the original plan for G.fast on poles idea along with full fibre networks. I think G.fast in that form would have satisfied the hunger for speed while keeping costs low.


It wouldn't have kept costs low. The difference in cost between the pods Openreach are deploying and pushing fibre to DPs is huge. The cost of deploying fibre per premises passed is lower than the cost pushing G.fast to DPs. The only saving comes from cost per premises connected.
Standard User Ignitionnet
(knowledge is power) Mon 14-May-18 10:49:35
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Re: Is There Demand For Ultra Fast?


[re: partial] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by partial:
Anybody who is time served in the local loops will know that chucking stuff unprotected in the ground in shallow trenches is madness.

Especially when said plant does not show up on a common or garden cable detector.

It will end in tears. It always does.


Is anyone direct burying? It's going inside microducts with tape over the top to warn there's fibre there.

I know of no-one that's direct burying their plant.

No-one's burying the access network stuff any deeper than 400mm.
Standard User Ignitionnet
(knowledge is power) Mon 14-May-18 10:53:38
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Re: Is There Demand For Ultra Fast?


[re: partial] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by partial:
We'll soon get to test demand as gfast has been installed all over the larger exchanges in my manor. Hundreds of them.

If punters don't buy gfast faster speeds like their not buying it where fttp and or Virgin is already available, do you advise massive expansion of fttp

I thnk fibre is showing all the signs of a bubble. Lot of noise, speculation, firms borrowing huge sums but few punters.


In the case of Openreach it'll save them a huge amount of money in the longer term. If your livelihood depends on maintaining copper networks it's one that definitely has a lifespan.

Verizon's replacement of copper with FTTP is saving them a fair chunk of change on maintenance and real estate costs.

The main enemy to FTTP is the regulatory environment. If that become more supportive things can change fairly rapidly.

The great thing about FTTP is that we can assess it against a whole bunch of other places in the rest of the world, it's not some brave new world that the UK is pioneering. There are obviously differences for the UK market however without Ofcom's meddling these may change somewhat.
Standard User Ignitionnet
(knowledge is power) Mon 14-May-18 10:57:30
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Re: Is There Demand For Ultra Fast?


[re: partial] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by partial:
Would these areas be better off if BT used the money to increase payments to staff, pensioners and shareholders who would in turn spend the money in the local economy rather than spending on stuff nobody wants to buy?


No. If BT had the ability to do that they'd be making too much money and would be regulated accordingly.

The payments to pensioners are quite subsidised enough by existing shareholders and customers. The company claims it'll be able to preserve its dividends. If it were able to do that and buy back its own shares based on what Openreach are spending or not spending Ofcom would likely want a chat.

Staff are presumably paid the market rate for their services. If they are unhappy with their remuneration package and conditions other employers are available and there's a fair degree of unionisation so collective bargaining can be done.

Either way I would hope the capital expenditure budget and operating expenditure budget are quite different things. Due to the regulation BT Group can pour money into Openreach at their convenience however transfers the other way will, rightly, be a cause for concern.

Areas where people all buy Infinity 1 are not the norm that's presumably the demographics of the area - nationwide there are more people on 80Mb services than 40Mb now I believe. With other operators building for BT to have the funds to continue to pay their staff, continue to pay their shareholders and manage their bills they have deduced they need to invest. Vodafone et al aren't going after just their retail operation, they want the wholesale cash too, and with the insane prices Openreach charge for FTTP at the higher end and the lack of any products above 330Mb it does become an 'issue'.

Rest assured, BT aren't doing this for their health and aren't doing it because they feel like it. They're doing it to preserve market share, preserve revenues and, in time, protect profit margins. They will save a lot of money from shutting down exchanges in terms of rent, power, etc, and a lot of staffing costs in not having metal to maintain.

Openreach staff obviously may not like this but when it comes down to it if Vodafone and others are building there are no real options. Openreach either lose the metal or lose out entirely.

Edited by Ignitionnet (Mon 14-May-18 11:04:26)

Standard User Icaras
(experienced) Mon 14-May-18 12:06:26
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Re: Is There Demand For Ultra Fast?


[re: MrSaffron] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by MrSaffron:
If there is existing Openreach duct that is used for FTTP, or overhead delivery if lines arrive via poles today.


I think it will surprise people how much of the FTTP rollout will be overhead. Areas where the cable is direct in ground with armoured cable will be supplied overhead via new poles. Also, where there are multiple blockages that would prove too expensive to sort. Basically whatever is the cheapest for Openreach and often that’s overhead.

Icaras
Administrator MrSaffron
(staff) Mon 14-May-18 12:46:58
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Re: Is There Demand For Ultra Fast?


[re: Icaras] [link to this post]
 
They will need people but I'd expect a bump in Openreach building actual network staff and once complete a down sizing.

The author of the above post is a thinkbroadband staff member. It may not constitute an official statement on behalf of thinkbroadband.
Standard User Michael_Chare
(fountain of knowledge) Mon 14-May-18 12:58:58
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Re: Is There Demand For Ultra Fast?


[re: ian72] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by ian72:
Installing G.Fast or FTTP in areas that currently have low speeds is still not going to see people jumping from low speeds to top speeds. What it will mean is that it will allow people to get the 40/10 and 80/20 tiers at a reasonable cost - but that doesn't bring BT any more revenue than they get now on VDSL.
Depends what you mean be low speeds. FTTP does not suffer from the distance problems that plague DSL services, and is ideal if all you can get is less than 2Mbps DSL.

Michael Chare
Standard User Michael_Chare
(fountain of knowledge) Mon 14-May-18 13:07:55
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Re: Is There Demand For Ultra Fast?


[re: Ignitionnet] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by Ignitionnet:
The main enemy to FTTP is the regulatory environment. If that become more supportive things can change fairly rapidly.
Would you like to explain your reaons for this statement.

Michael Chare
Standard User Malwaremike
(committed) Mon 14-May-18 13:23:40
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Re: Is There Demand For Ultra Fast?


[re: Ignitionnet] [link to this post]
 
Is anyone direct burying? It's going inside microducts with tape over the top to warn there's fibre there.
I know of no-one that's direct burying their plant.

Virgin Media now installing one microduct (green plastic about 12mm diameter) across many towns in Northern Ireland. One duct from each house runs to end-of-street cabinet, from which further ducts run to ??exchanges??. Between our two towns, the bunch of microducts has been laid in earth along the grass central reservation of a two-mile dual carriageway, thereafter along grass verges.

The ducts are laid in a 300mm deep trench with green plastic tape laid over them before backfilling. Roads are crossed with the microducts fed through a corrugated plastic pipe (like a field drain) which is then topped with concrete before restoration of the blacktop running course. Given that most footways are now used as car parks, and HGVs regularly driving onto them for unloading and phone calls, I think damage is inevitable especially as road surfaces are already deteriorating, I hardly need to point this out!
Standard User ian72
(eat-sleep-adslguide) Mon 14-May-18 14:06:40
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Re: Is There Demand For Ultra Fast?


[re: Michael_Chare] [link to this post]
 
I mean people who currently have low speeds with ADSL or VDSL. Most people on low speeds now woudn't suddenly jump to a high speed FTTP/G.Fast package if it became available. Going from 5Mb/s to 40Mb/s is a big jump in capability - most people would do that rather than pay more to go to 100Mb plus.

If someone is currently on VDSL 40/10 but getting 5/2 then going to FTTP 40/10 will be exactly the same income for BT - what BT need to pay for the investment in FTTP is people to be spending more not spending the same but getting more.

The offset is that the maintenance costs of FTTP should be cheaper than copper but with the scale of Openreach the payoff just on maintenance is going to be a long ROI.
Standard User Zarjaz
(eat-sleep-adslguide) Mon 14-May-18 19:50:30
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Re: Is There Demand For Ultra Fast?


[re: ian72] [link to this post]
 
Was in a large ex school this afternoon, been made into small business start up
units ..... each gets an ex classroom ... and only 5 meg ADSL.

There is MDU fibre, been there for over a year, and today’s install was only the third company to take it up .... the punter even said 80 meg worked out cheaper than renting a line and DSL.

So it’s there, infrastructure run past each room, but still no takers.

Bleak really.

Standard User witchunt
(experienced) Mon 14-May-18 20:15:31
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Re: Is There Demand For Ultra Fast?


[re: Icaras] [link to this post]
 
Yes, pole testing could be a good skill to have in openreach over the next few years
Standard User partial
(experienced) Mon 14-May-18 20:51:52
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Re: Is There Demand For Ultra Fast?


[re: Zarjaz] [link to this post]
 
Spent the day huffing and puffing a copper cable into some street furniture so they can cease the fibre.
Standard User ian72
(eat-sleep-adslguide) Tue 15-May-18 08:22:35
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Re: Is There Demand For Ultra Fast?


[re: Zarjaz] [link to this post]
 
Schools themselves buy the cheapest they can get away with and a lot have moved from good leased line services to ADSL and VDSL services to save money.
Standard User Ignitionnet
(knowledge is power) Tue 15-May-18 09:33:37
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Re: Is There Demand For Ultra Fast?


[re: ian72] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by ian72:
Schools themselves buy the cheapest they can get away with and a lot have moved from good leased line services to ADSL and VDSL services to save money.


Schools tend to either buy fully managed services or are too large to be able to get away with anything other than leased lines.

Some reduction in leased line requirements though for sure. Replacement via broadband and overlay networks becoming more of a thing.
Standard User Ignitionnet
(knowledge is power) Tue 15-May-18 09:37:50
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Re: Is There Demand For Ultra Fast?


[re: Michael_Chare] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by Michael_Chare:
In reply to a post by Ignitionnet:
The main enemy to FTTP is the regulatory environment. If that become more supportive things can change fairly rapidly.
Would you like to explain your reaons for this statement.


No. It's pretty self evident. Check out the difference in the environment in Spain and Portugal, nations Sharon White belated about recently while conveniently ignoring the regulatory differences, and the one Ofcom create.

As a spoiler, they don't have a bunch of companies desperately petitioning the regulator to force the incumbent to keep copper, and allowed the incumbent to keep their FTTP investment to themselves in some areas for a period of time.

They even allow copper retirement. Perish the thought.

Edited by Ignitionnet (Tue 15-May-18 09:39:00)

Standard User ian72
(eat-sleep-adslguide) Tue 15-May-18 09:52:29
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Re: Is There Demand For Ultra Fast?


[re: Ignitionnet] [link to this post]
 
Certainly in this area most schools buy the cheapest they can and that can mean small local companies providing cheap low spec services. Remembering that the majority of schools (by number) are primaries and therefore don't have masses of budget. Secondary schools have an economy of scale that primaries don't.
Standard User Zarjaz
(eat-sleep-adslguide) Tue 15-May-18 14:32:05
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Re: Is There Demand For Ultra Fast?


[re: ian72] [link to this post]
 
Except where I was on about wasn’t a school any more.

Standard User ian72
(eat-sleep-adslguide) Tue 15-May-18 14:39:12
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Re: Is There Demand For Ultra Fast?


[re: Zarjaz] [link to this post]
 
I know, but you mentioned a school so I went off on a slight tangent with more examples where people pay as little as possible.
Standard User richi
(member) Wed 16-May-18 10:13:40
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Re: Is There Demand For Ultra Fast?


[re: Ignitionnet] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by Ignitionnet:
In reply to a post by ian72:
Schools themselves buy the cheapest they can get away with and a lot have moved from good leased line services to ADSL and VDSL services to save money.
Schools tend to either buy fully managed services or are too large to be able to get away with anything other than leased lines.
Except if a typical choice is expensive symmetric 10 Mbps GEA over several pairs, vs. "cheap" 60/15 VDSL2 over a single pair, why shouldn't a school choose the VDSL service? Especially if elevated to business grade?

3 km line on THTG: 17/1.2 Mb/s with Plusnet Business.
Previously: BT ISDN, Nildram, Plusnet, 186k, EFH, Be*, Plusnet (again), Pulse8, Sky.
Standard User bowdon
(committed) Wed 16-May-18 13:02:44
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Re: Is There Demand For Ultra Fast?


[re: richi] [link to this post]
 
(a general reply to the thread)

Yesterday while looking up an address using the dsl checker I thought I'd try my own number again, as I'd noticed the web pages had been updated in design. To my surprise I noticed that FTTP on Demand appeared in the results.

This got me thinking that if I hadn't have been randomly checking my number I wouldn't have known that FTTP on Demand was now suddenly available to me.

This got me thinking about the near total lack of advertising when it comes to broadband services. The only exception in my experience is Virgin Media that it seems every time I look up my address on their site in the next couple of days an information pack arrives at my door advertising all their package offers available to me.

This seems to be totally lacking when it comes to dsl isp's. Granted I can't remember when I went to an isp's site to look up my address so I'm not 100% sure if they would auto send some information out (I will do an experiment later). But in my knowledge I don't see any dsl isp sending out 'personal' advertisements giving information about their packages.

The only advertising I see for dsl isp's are on television, and that seems to be always advertising FTTC technology, and usually only the upto 52MB package. Also anyone would think wifi was a broadband technology on its own, and not just part of the router, the way some adverts talk about it.

So I do wonder how much advertising plays a roll in people increasing their broadband packages. I know a few posts ago MrSaffron said one of the main reasons higher speeds are recorded on VM connections is probably due to them being paired up with the tv packages. I would say this is true. But also we have to remember that at least VM is advertising in some way, while other isp's arent.

For the average person they are never personally prompted to upgrade a package on a dsl platform. If someone moved here from another country they would only know about FTTC via tv advertising. They won't know what speeds they personally can get, or any personal offers at all, unless they went to the dsl checker.

So I think that is why only the people interested in new technology upgrade because we are the only ones to look in to it without being prompted.

The conspiracy part of me wonders if the broadband industry doesn't want to advance. They make zero effort to personalise advertising, and then spin out stats saying nobody is taking the higher level packages. How the heck are isp's gauging demand when they haven't asked anyone? We already know good broadband is becoming more of a priority when people move house.

VM are the only ones sending out personalised advertising. Their problem is they end up being too good and overselling high speed products. Isn't that itself showing there is a demand?

Demon => Freeserve => Pipex => Be => Sky => BT Infinity 2
Standard User RobertoS
(elder) Wed 16-May-18 13:40:43
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Re: Is There Demand For Ultra Fast?


[re: bowdon] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by bowdon:
For the average person they are never personally prompted to upgrade a package on a dsl platform. If someone moved here from another country they would only know about FTTC via tv advertising. They won't know what speeds they personally can get, or any personal offers at all, unless they went to the dsl checker.
Almost every ISP site I visit these days makes it hard to get past their landing page without the entry of either one's phone number or address, with a banner such as "So that we can tell you what is available to you, please supply your number or address".

On supplying that information they list in detail all the ADSLx and FTTx packages they can supply. Isn't that sufficient?

As for the appearance of FTTPoD on the BT Wholesale DSL checker, there are only a few ISPs offering that, as the prices are normally far beyond the retail user's budget. I don't think any of the main TV advertisers offer it at retail level, and only one of them at Business level, that being BT Business.

As for personalised advertising, and VM's carrying out of such, I just wish there was a way of stopping the monthly junk arriving through my letterbox from Virgin Media! Occasionally addressed to The Occupier" at my address, must normally addressed to myself.

I certainly don't want junk mail or email from my or any other supplier suggesting I upgrade to higher level packages.

My broadband basic info/help site - www.robertos.me.uk. Domains, site and mail hosting - Tsohost.
Connection - AAISP Home::1 80/20. 200GB. Sync 66321/13379Kbps @ 600m. BQMs - IPv4 & IPv6
Standard User Ignitionnet
(knowledge is power) Wed 16-May-18 14:27:08
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Re: Is There Demand For Ultra Fast?


[re: richi] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by richi:
In reply to a post by Ignitionnet:
In reply to a post by ian72:
Schools themselves buy the cheapest they can get away with and a lot have moved from good leased line services to ADSL and VDSL services to save money.
Schools tend to either buy fully managed services or are too large to be able to get away with anything other than leased lines.
Except if a typical choice is expensive symmetric 10 Mbps GEA over several pairs, vs. "cheap" 60/15 VDSL2 over a single pair, why shouldn't a school choose the VDSL service? Especially if elevated to business grade?


Hey, given institutions transferring partially or fully to broadband helps keep me employed I have no problem at all with their doing so smile
Standard User bowdon
(committed) Wed 16-May-18 17:22:09
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Re: Is There Demand For Ultra Fast?


[re: RobertoS] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by RobertoS:
Almost every ISP site I visit these days makes it hard to get past their landing page without the entry of either one's phone number or address, with a banner such as "So that we can tell you what is available to you, please supply your number or address".

On supplying that information they list in detail all the ADSLx and FTTx packages they can supply. Isn't that sufficient?


I guess it depends how much they want the business. VM does more proactive advertising to potential customers and this i think is why people tend to go for the higher speed packages imho.

In reply to a post by RobertoS:
As for personalised advertising, and VM's carrying out of such, I just wish there was a way of stopping the monthly junk arriving through my letterbox from Virgin Media! Occasionally addressed to The Occupier" at my address, must normally addressed to myself.

I certainly don't want junk mail or email from my or any other supplier suggesting I upgrade to higher level packages.


I agree. I didn't say I liked being bombarded by it lol

I just think there are some vested interests by companies to not want to build these new future networks, as it will cost a lot at the start before they start making money back. So pushing the line "there isnt a demand for it" is in their interests.

I would have more faith in that opinion if people were actually asked, instead of basing it on stats of why people opt to buy a low speed package when they can buy a higher speed package.

Because the flip side of that position is when it comes to VM, the question could be, why are people buying any package over 50MB ? according to the "there isnt a demand for it" lobby people should be buying the lowest speed package.

Demon => Freeserve => Pipex => Be => Sky => BT Infinity 2
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