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Standard User clyde123
(regular) Wed 21-Nov-18 21:26:32
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ADSL 2+ problems


[link to this post]
 
A friend is complaining of slow broadband speeds. Okay it's ADSL 2+, but we've seen speeds of maybe 15 in the past. He says he's getting maybe 3 Mbps on average at the moment.
Have just been looking in his modem/router. The attenuation reports 180 downstream.
Here's links to the statistics from the router :
https://ibb.co/eygfSA
https://ibb.co/frqULV
https://ibb.co/kmSb0V

So, downstream rate is 6656 but the attainable rate is 13584 (Kbps).
Downstream attenuation says it's 180, and SNR margin 146.
Is that just an unusual way of expressing attenuation and SNR margin, or do we have a serious problem here ?
I've run Fault Diagnostics tests on the line, KBD tool Non-intrusive and intrusive. Nothing of interest there - result "No issues have been identified in the BTW network. KBD test indicates no BTW network fault. Please perform all CP and End User checks. BTW Performance/Speed test has not been run."

My next step will be a visit to check things like internal wiring, dongles, etc.
But does anyone with experience have any recommendations ?

Oh, and at the ISP end, it's reporting multiple disconnections most days.
Standard User RobertoS
(elder) Wed 21-Nov-18 21:55:10
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Re: ADSL 2+ problems


[re: clyde123] [link to this post]
 
The easy bit is the high readings. wink

If you look at the descriptions they say 0.1dB. In other words they aren't printing the decimal points. So SNRM is 14.6 down, 5.9 up. Attenuation is down 18.0, up 8.4.

The more difficult bit is finding out what is wrong. The high down margin is causing the low sync, and the high down margin is a result of DLM trying to stop the frequent disconnections.

Normally the first thing to do is a re-sync to see if a one-off disconnection that re-sync'ed for instance during a thunderstorm, but given the ISP is seeing multiple disconnections it isn't that. So don't do it. In this situation the more re-sync's done his end the worse he makes it.

A guess. Plusnet?

Is he near to you so it's easy to pop round, or quite a way away and not simple for whatever reasons?

My broadband basic info/help site - www.robertos.me.uk. Domains, site and mail hosting - Tsohost.
Connection - AAISP Home::1 80/20. 200GB. Sync 01/10/18 - 72382/13812Kbps @ 600m. BQMs - IPv4 & IPv6
==================================================
If you never think of anything off the wall, you'll never think of anything original.
Standard User clyde123
(regular) Wed 21-Nov-18 22:07:26
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Re: ADSL 2+ problems


[re: RobertoS] [link to this post]
 
Thanks Robertos.
Firstly the easy bit - no not Plusnet, Entanet smile
He's not too far, about 15 miles. I'll probably not go until next week now as I've already got commitments for tomorrow evening, Friday daytime, all day Saturday. Then my better half is away with the girls Sunday & Monday so I'm not going to waste that free time smile smile

That router has been installed for quite a while. I'll maybe organise a replacement, just in case.
I'll feed back once I've been out and visited, and checked cables and stuff.
Thanks again.


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Standard User Zarjaz
(eat-sleep-adslguide) Wed 21-Nov-18 22:17:34
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Re: ADSL 2+ problems


[re: clyde123] [link to this post]
 
Check the line for noise/dial tone too ... an easy test often overlooked.

Standard User clyde123
(regular) Thu 22-Nov-18 00:03:29
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Re: ADSL 2+ problems


[re: Zarjaz] [link to this post]
 
Thanks Zarjaz
Quiet line test gives total silence.
Standard User XRaySpeX
(eat-sleep-adslguide) Thu 22-Nov-18 01:39:42
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Re: ADSL 2+ problems


[re: clyde123] [link to this post]
 
You should be syncing at about 21 Meg instead of the 6656 K that you are. The reason you are not is that the DLM system has put you on a banded profile in response to past errors on your line, at the top of the 7th lowest of these ADSL Banded Profiles. You need to give the DLM time to relent & remove any banding. Leave it alone for at least 7 days & don't reset or resync the router. If it's still banded you should then call your ISP to get the DLM reset in order to remove any banding. However should significant errors persist the DLM will reapply banding.

1999: Freeserve 48K Dial-Up => 2005: Wanadoo 1 Meg BB => 2007: Orange 2 Meg BB => 2008: Orange 8 Meg LLU => 2010: Orange 16 Meg LLU => 2011: Orange 20 Meg WBC
Standard User Zarjaz
(eat-sleep-adslguide) Thu 22-Nov-18 06:02:41
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Re: ADSL 2+ problems


[re: clyde123] [link to this post]
 
OK, thatís a good start then. Itíll have await your visit then.

Standard User Kalinihta
(newbie) Thu 22-Nov-18 12:16:35
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Re: ADSL 2+ problems


[re: clyde123] [link to this post]
 
ADSL is an outdated technology.
Standard User Zarjaz
(eat-sleep-adslguide) Thu 22-Nov-18 12:23:37
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Re: ADSL 2+ problems


[re: Kalinihta] [link to this post]
 
What a pointless post to make ? Doesnít help the original poster at all does it ?

Standard User clyde123
(regular) Thu 22-Nov-18 18:51:32
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Re: ADSL 2+ problems


[re: Zarjaz] [link to this post]
 
Without getting into anything more right now, can anyone confirm that this is a very old BT "master" socket ?
Link : https://ibb.co/nM5VVV

I need to go out for a few hours, so don't be offended if I don't respond right away to any replies smile
Standard User Apprentice
(knowledge is power) Thu 22-Nov-18 18:55:11
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Re: ADSL 2+ problems


[re: Kalinihta] [link to this post]
 
It's still in use though as fibre optic broadband isn't available to all.

ADSL1 Broadband
Administrator MrSaffron
(staff) Thu 22-Nov-18 18:56:02
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Re: ADSL 2+ problems


[re: clyde123] [link to this post]
 
If it was a master you would have the incoming line going to A/B terminals and the extension using 2 and 5. On whether it is a BT one they is usually a logo of some sort, not 100% on identifying odd sockets from the rear, but certainly does meet any of the recent master socket rears I've seen

To improve things a new master socket with filter and ring wire isolation would probably help them a lot.

The author of the above post is a thinkbroadband staff member. It may not constitute an official statement on behalf of thinkbroadband.
Standard User witchunt
(experienced) Thu 22-Nov-18 19:24:53
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Re: ADSL 2+ problems


[re: clyde123] [link to this post]
 
It's a line jack unit type master socket
Standard User Zarjaz
(eat-sleep-adslguide) Thu 22-Nov-18 20:05:33
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Re: ADSL 2+ problems


[re: MrSaffron] [link to this post]
 
Ďcept there is no bell wire connected.

I say remove the pair going on to an extension somewhere, and thatís a good start.

Administrator MrSaffron
(staff) Thu 22-Nov-18 20:10:05
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Re: ADSL 2+ problems


[re: Zarjaz] [link to this post]
 
Oh yes there is, can see the metal ends in the num 3 connector and a green (or is it brown) wire heading in underneath the pair blue wires.

Disconnecting that and the extension would be a would starting point though, so long as they have an idc insertion tool to put back the incoming line pair when the inevitable wrong one is disconnected

The author of the above post is a thinkbroadband staff member. It may not constitute an official statement on behalf of thinkbroadband.
Standard User RobertoS
(elder) Thu 22-Nov-18 20:40:51
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Re: ADSL 2+ problems


[re: MrSaffron] [link to this post]
 
Looks to me like the blue-white pair is inserted later than the black-white so probably the extension. The ring wire is green.

My broadband basic info/help site - www.robertos.me.uk. Domains, site and mail hosting - Tsohost.
Connection - AAISP Home::1 80/20. 200GB. Sync 01/10/18 - 72382/13812Kbps @ 600m. BQMs - IPv4 & IPv6
==================================================
If you never think of anything off the wall, you'll never think of anything original.
Standard User Zarjaz
(eat-sleep-adslguide) Thu 22-Nov-18 20:49:51
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Re: ADSL 2+ problems


[re: MrSaffron] [link to this post]
 
Oh yeah blush

I really need to stop reading these posts on me phone.

Standard User partial
(experienced) Thu 22-Nov-18 21:12:03
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Re: ADSL 2+ problems


[re: clyde123] [link to this post]
 
photo is poor but looks like a split pair to me if green white is to 3, white green is to 5 and blue white is to 2 on one of the cables.

Edited by partial (Thu 22-Nov-18 21:12:34)

Standard User RobertoS
(elder) Thu 22-Nov-18 21:27:26
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Re: ADSL 2+ problems


[re: partial] [link to this post]
 
It is green/white throughout, tucked down the side of and under 4 en route to 3.

My broadband basic info/help site - www.robertos.me.uk. Domains, site and mail hosting - Tsohost.
Connection - AAISP Home::1 80/20. 200GB. Sync 01/10/18 - 72382/13812Kbps @ 600m. BQMs - IPv4 & IPv6
==================================================
If you never think of anything off the wall, you'll never think of anything original.

Edited by RobertoS (Thu 22-Nov-18 21:29:56)

Standard User clyde123
(regular) Thu 22-Nov-18 21:50:49
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Re: ADSL 2+ problems


[re: MrSaffron] [link to this post]
 
Yep, decided to re-arrange my schedule and visited this afternoon.
So the image above is alledgedly the only socket in the house.
Ref the bell wire - on pin 3 - I removed that after the photo was taken. Yes MrSaffron, green.
Ref the second pair going on to an extension - no idea where that is, but I can easily disconnect it. Not to worry about pulling the wrong wires - I've got an IDC tool just in case.

Some info - cable comes into property into an old junction box - see pic with crimps. https://ibb.co/d3uXSA
Then shortly thereafter through another junction box - see pic. https://ibb.co/kVzfxA It seems to me that effectively there is the one cable coming in, then one cable going out. Which goes to the above "master socket".

The "master socket" does have a BT logo on the front. https://ibb.co/gWY3Zq
Here's a slightly better pic of the rear of the socket. Taken after removing the green wire from pin 3. : https://ibb.co/k1q3HA

So, we need to organise to get that updated to a modern proper Master Socket.

Additionally, I got him a new router. I was kinda hoping to plug it into the test socket crossing my fingers and magically maybe we'd get some sort of improvement. Hoho.
Anyway, XRaySpeX - we'll leave it alone for a week or so, hoping that DLM relents and we see some improvement on that score.
The stats from the new router are in this pic : https://ibb.co/dBfLxA

A slight complication - but I'm not going to worry about this for the moment. Priorities. The PC and location of the router are upstairs. This is fed by a long extension phone cable going up the staircase etc etc. When I installed the router there, it would not sync with a filter fitted. I had to remove the filter to allow it to sync. We'll deal with that when everything else is good.

NB - in case I'm confusing anyone - all the above pics and tests were run right beside the "master socket". It was after that I moved everything upstairs.

So, in a nutshell - then plan is (1) replace the socket , and (2) leave everything untouched for the next week. Hopefully number 2 will allow DLM to relent and maybe sync will improve.

Thanks to all who have contributed so far. If there's anything else I should be doing, will appreciate the nudge. And I'll update this thread when there is any change.
Administrator MrSaffron
(staff) Thu 22-Nov-18 22:10:20
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Re: ADSL 2+ problems


[re: clyde123] [link to this post]
 
With the bell wire removed and extension removed there is not likely to be much difference in having a new master socket

The author of the above post is a thinkbroadband staff member. It may not constitute an official statement on behalf of thinkbroadband.
Standard User RobertoS
(elder) Fri 23-Nov-18 00:29:00
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Re: ADSL 2+ problems


[re: MrSaffron] [link to this post]
 
Agreed re the master socket.

What is very noticeable is the huge improvement in the attenuation, noise margin and max attainable downstream sync. But whether there will be an improvement in the stability I have my doubts.

It's odd that the pristine junction box with the crimps is the first after entry to the building. Unless that is to deal with a cut cable from outside perhaps when double glazed windows were installed. I wonder if the outside part of that cable can be seen to go to a drop wire from a pole? Or if it runs outside then re-enters to the missing extension.

The decrepit one it leads to looks more likely, with what looks like underground feed and output cables. It's a very strange place to have such an old junction box if it isn't to do with the outside connection. I suspect there may be damp there, which could be the problem whatever the reason for the box existing.

Alternatively, I wonder if it is still functional. If it is even in the circuit.

Looking back at the pristine junction box, orange > orange and blue > white. With orange and white heading out together to the right. What?

Also, where do the valid pairings at the master come from. The don't seem to be present in any other pics so far, though maybe, looking again, we have the black/white + white/black pair at the decrepit box. Maybe going to the master.

My broadband basic info/help site - www.robertos.me.uk. Domains, site and mail hosting - Tsohost.
Connection - AAISP Home::1 80/20. 200GB. Sync 01/10/18 - 72382/13812Kbps @ 600m. BQMs - IPv4 & IPv6
==================================================
If you never think of anything off the wall, you'll never think of anything original.
Standard User Malwaremike
(committed) Sat 24-Nov-18 14:19:30
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Re: ADSL 2+ problems


[re: clyde123] [link to this post]
 
There's something strange about your apparently shiny box with crimps which then leads into the second obviously older box. If it's any help, we had one of these old boxes in the roofspace and it was at least 45 years old. Could be someone had an illegal fiddle with the incoming, perhaps during house improvements?

Edited by Malwaremike (Sat 24-Nov-18 14:20:44)

Standard User clyde123
(regular) Sat 24-Nov-18 15:12:06
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Re: ADSL 2+ problems


[re: Malwaremike] [link to this post]
 
Thanks Malwaremike.
Yes it is fairly new. Seemingly it happened when they got new windows put in. The dropwire from outside cable comes through the window frame into this connection box. I didn't ask who it was that did that box, but I suspect it was NOT BT/Openreach.
It's a good point.
I'm not sure what's the best way forward with that. I'm reticent about recommending having someone come in to replace it, because if it doesn't make any noticeable performance improvement, my credibility goes down.
Standard User RobertoS
(elder) Sat 24-Nov-18 15:42:10
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Re: ADSL 2+ problems


[re: clyde123] [link to this post]
 
You seem not to have read this post, where I wonder about possible damp at the old junction box. But also wonder if it is still in the circuit.

My broadband basic info/help site - www.robertos.me.uk. Domains, site and mail hosting - Tsohost.
Connection - AAISP Home::1 80/20. 200GB. Sync 01/10/18 - 72382/13812Kbps @ 600m. BQMs - IPv4 & IPv6
==================================================
If you never think of anything off the wall, you'll never think of anything original.
Standard User Malwaremike
(committed) Sat 24-Nov-18 15:43:12
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Re: ADSL 2+ problems


[re: clyde123] [link to this post]
 
Suggest you try tracing the line all the way back. A friend's house had reasonably tidy wiring/master box inside but BB was very slow. We pulled back their old garden shed to reveal the incoming line which came in under the driveway, up the garage wall to a circular BT box, then usual four-core cable under a window sill and through the wall into the house. It was so old that the insulation crumbled when I pulled it, exposing the bare wires. BT replaced the lot from the incoming line to a new master inside the house which made a vast improvement. Mind you, I still wonder about the old line still under the driveway but it works so I leave well alone. Good luck!
Standard User clyde123
(regular) Sat 24-Nov-18 16:24:30
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Re: ADSL 2+ problems


[re: RobertoS] [link to this post]
 
Hi Robertos, apologies, I had read that post, but somehow my brain skipped over it concentrating on what I thought I knew about.

Yes, I see what you're saying.
I'm pretty certain the socket I was working from does feed from the decrepit one. I can follow that cable. The decrepit one is on the floor in a hallway in the middle of the house. Not easy to comfortably poke about in.

The pristine one is where the cable comes into the house.
Actually, I think I need to visit again and poke about in these various junction boxes, and maybe photo again with all the wires exposed a bit clearer.
The pristine one does confuse me on looking at it again.

So, yes, I'll visit again and pay close attention to the wiring details this time.
Thanks for that again.
Standard User clyde123
(regular) Sat 24-Nov-18 16:29:11
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Re: ADSL 2+ problems


[re: Malwaremike] [link to this post]
 
Thanks Malwaremike.
From that pristine box which is immediately inside a window frame, the cable runs up the outside wall, then overhead a good distance to presumably a pole at one of the neighbours.
I'm going to visit again, but other than running a ladder up beside the stretch just outside the window, I doubt I could easily inspect the outside cable any more. Anyway will try.
Cheers again.
Standard User nrb501
(regular) Sun 25-Nov-18 18:11:02
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Re: ADSL 2+ problems


[re: clyde123] [link to this post]
 
It's likely a waste of time putting up a ladder to look at it, as anything wrong here will need to be rectified by BT/Openreach.

The cable that comes through the window that the orange and white cores are visible in the photo should be the end of the drop wire from the pole. It would be best if a new master socket could be installed at this point, then new internal cable installed direct to a new socket where the router lives.
Standard User ukhardy07
(knowledge is power) Mon 26-Nov-18 08:38:09
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Re: ADSL 2+ problems


[re: clyde123] [link to this post]
 
It is super confusing as the colours do not marry up the whole way...

For example you have what appears to be solid orange and solid white leaving the new junction box, so why do we not see the same at the old junction box... I see solid orange and white/blue (not solid white) at the old junction box. So now I'm left thinking where does that solid white cable (on the new box at the window) get changed out to a white/blue cable... If it went all the way straight to the old junction as you say, we would see it there.

I think your understanding of the way this line is setup is not 100% accurate, there is more to this story. You really want to be able to follow these lines properly and identify the mystery second socket also.
Standard User ukhardy07
(knowledge is power) Mon 26-Nov-18 08:48:33
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Re: ADSL 2+ problems


[re: nrb501] [link to this post]
 
It's likely a waste of time putting up a ladder to look at it, as anything wrong here will need to be rectified by BT/Openreach.
I am interested in seeing does the line go into the loftspace for example?

The cable that comes through the window that the orange and white cores are visible in the photo should be the end of the drop wire from the pole.
It does not scream out drop cable to me, where drop cable is usually black. It could just be painted overtime.

It would be best if a new master socket could be installed at this point, then new internal cable installed direct to a new socket where the router lives.
I am not even sure if this is the correct entry point personally, the colours here do not seem to match with the master in the same way the old junction box seems too...

What seems logical is not always the correct answer with BT lines.
Standard User Zarjaz
(eat-sleep-adslguide) Mon 26-Nov-18 12:54:13
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Re: ADSL 2+ problems


[re: ukhardy07] [link to this post]
 
I wonder if thatís Ďdownleadí feeding into the first newer connection box ? Same two pair and colours as old DW10, exterior grade as well.

There was a brief mention elsewhere from the OP of a repair done after the windows had been replaced by double glazing ... it might be part of that ?

The second connection point, a BT78 looks dubious to me. They are prone ( when poorly sited ) to corrosion on the rear metal connecting strips, also it looks too Ďbusyí, too many ends for just one in, one out.

Standard User clyde123
(regular) Tue 27-Nov-18 16:13:09
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Re: ADSL 2+ problems


[re: Zarjaz] [link to this post]
 
Well, I did this morning what should have done a week ago. Had a good look at the outside cabling.
The outside and inside that we've talked about all look fine. BUT - there's a junction box high up outside that could be dodgy.

First, to clear up previous questions - here's a better pic of the wires inside the junction box at the window. https://ibb.co/sb2GyHr
The solid orange and white wires go through the window frame and outside. It seems this was only done a couple of months ago, and the guy says this was done by "Openreach" - seemingly he phoned them himself and they came out and did it for free. He's adamant about that.

Inside the old BT78 connection point is this : https://ibb.co/5BgtBN1
There's no damp. It's in the middle of the house. I've physically traced the cable coming from the window, and the other going to the phone socket.

So, the new bit is this : https://ibb.co/LCZR8qH
High up outside where I couldn't quite get to : https://ibb.co/9bX6Z3j

I suppose it could be nice and solid inside. But does anyone have any experience of these boxes ?

Thanks to all for help so far.
Standard User Zarjaz
(eat-sleep-adslguide) Tue 27-Nov-18 16:40:21
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Re: ADSL 2+ problems


[re: clyde123] [link to this post]
 
Thatís a 17A up at the eaves, long since superceded. Inside will be more gel crimps.
Looks like itís not entirely waterproof anymore. Should be OK.

That the 78 looks clean, but theres metal contacts across the back connecting the opposing IDC connectors, thatís where the corrosion often starts. The good news is that itís a pair in and a pair out.

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