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Standard User ajd1
(learned) Sat 29-Dec-18 13:52:26
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Openreach monopoly and length of time to repair services


[link to this post]
 
Our broadband and telephone services both failed on the morning of the 28th December. We are with TalkTalk Business (both my wife and I work from home) and after going through diagnostic tests it appears that there is an issue with the line and Openreach are responsible.

Apparently Openreach can not get to us until Monday and they also do not work on a Sunday! We will be without telephone and broadband for at least three days.

We all depend so much on broadband today and will become more so with time. Many houses are becoming ďsmartĒ and rely on broadband for a wide range of services e.g. alarm systems, garage doors, heating, entertainment, lighting, door locks to name but a few.

Should we not expect Openreach to resolve broadband and telephone issues as urgently as the utilities given our dependence on broadband?

Openreach have the monopoly in our area of the country thus I assume this issue would be the same irrespective on provider, I am questioning the benefits of a business account as a consumer account issue would be dealt with in the same way...

Is government not looking at repair times for providers such as Openreach given our dependence on broadband??

Edited by ajd1 (Sat 29-Dec-18 14:41:44)

Standard User ian007jen
(experienced) Sat 29-Dec-18 14:14:07
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Re: Openreach monopoly and length of time to repair services


[re: ajd1] [link to this post]
 
What year are we talking about
morning of the 28th January
Standard User Zarjaz
(eat-sleep-adslguide) Sat 29-Dec-18 14:15:27
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Re: Openreach monopoly and length of time to repair services


[re: ajd1] [link to this post]
 
You can pay your service provider for quicker response times.

It is down to your chosen provider to chase this issue on your behalf.

With both you and your wife so apparently dependant on such services maybe having a back up service might have been wise.

You appear to have a mobile connection, can you tether your phones connection as a work around ?


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Administrator MrSaffron
(staff) Sat 29-Dec-18 14:16:42
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Re: Openreach monopoly and length of time to repair services


[re: ajd1] [link to this post]
 
Which grade of fault repair did the provider pay for?

Many opt for the 2 working day option, rather than 1 working day, though holiday season does play havoc with that.

Ofcom is who govern what is and is not a reasonable repair time for the money we pay. Most of the forthcoming changes are around compensation for not repairing within contracted time frame rather than making it something like same day repair.

NOTE: if you can only get into your house when there is Internet access, then you need to rethink how you do things, since power faults can affect people for 2 or 3 days in the winter particularly

The author of the above post is a thinkbroadband staff member. It may not constitute an official statement on behalf of thinkbroadband.
Standard User ajd1
(learned) Sat 29-Dec-18 14:45:58
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Re: Openreach monopoly and length of time to repair services


[re: ian007jen] [link to this post]
 
Oops, should be December, have corrected. My provider has a 2 working day option.

My comment is more a general one given our increasing dependence on broadband, Openreach's monopoly, and treating broadband the same way as other essential utilities.

I am using tethering (from my iPhone) for some services but it is chewing up my data...
Standard User ajd1
(learned) Sat 29-Dec-18 14:51:44
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Re: Openreach monopoly and length of time to repair services


[re: MrSaffron] [link to this post]
 
A lot of businesses and homes are implementing technologies that are dependent on both broadband and power and I suspect are not aware of the implications of failure of either service...
Standard User Zarjaz
(eat-sleep-adslguide) Sat 29-Dec-18 14:57:43
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Re: Openreach monopoly and length of time to repair services


[re: ajd1] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by ajd1:
A lot of businesses and homes are implementing technologies that are dependent on both broadband and power and I suspect are not aware of the implications of failure of either service...

Iíd argue the opposite. Most are fully aware of the necessity of both.

Standard User ajd1
(learned) Sat 29-Dec-18 15:09:10
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Re: Openreach monopoly and length of time to repair services


[re: Zarjaz] [link to this post]
 
They may be aware of the necessity of both, but are they aware of the implications of failure, and are manufacturers of smart technologies doing enough. As an example, we have the Hue light system, and it is working fine via the app on our network even though our broadband is down. Our home heating system (Hive) however is not accessible via the app (you can use the thermostat to control). Our Ring doorbell system does not work at all without broadband despite the fact that our internal network is fine...
Standard User uno
(knowledge is power) Sat 29-Dec-18 15:13:33
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Re: Openreach monopoly and length of time to repair services


[re: ajd1] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by ajd1:
Apparently Openreach can not get to us until Monday and they also do not work on a Sunday! We will be without telephone and broadband for at least three days.


They do, but you have to pay for it.

Highest service level provides repair within a few hours, Monday-Sunday including public holidays.

Of course, if this was a wider outage affecting many, it would not cover such a scenario as they'll be working to fix as quickly as possible already but factors outside of their control may prevent a speedy repair (i.e damage, stolen cable etc).

Matt

uno Communications
t: 0333 773 7700
Official Maidenhead, Milton Keynes & Sheffield Speedtest.net Host
Standard User MCM
(knowledge is power) Sat 29-Dec-18 15:50:30
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Re: Openreach monopoly and length of time to repair services


[re: ajd1] [link to this post]
 
Openreach's monopoly
Openreach has no monopoly. It may be the largest player but there are many other companies such as Virgin, Gigaclear, Hyperoptic, Vodaphone (in some areas only as yet but expanding) and others that make no use of the Openreach network. That you chose to not to pay for an upgraded service plan is a problem of your own making rather than one for Openreach.

Incidentally I was without electricity for nearly two weeks following the 1987 hurricane and more recently water for two days due to a major mains pipe fracture.
Standard User JohnR
(eat-sleep-adslguide) Sun 30-Dec-18 15:38:06
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Re: Openreach monopoly and length of time to repair services


[re: ajd1] [link to this post]
 
But these are our choice not a necessity of our lives.

Lights can be controlled by switches, even timed ones.
Heating as you say via a timed thermostat.
Door bell, well just open the door and see who it is... Not at home, not a problem then. We have managed for years without video door bells smile


Relying on internet to work from home then, Pay for business service & have a back up option not relying on the same lines. So 4G or such.
Of course people want it as cheep as possible. So rely on std service.

Just how would the OP survive if power went down? While you may get compensation. If it's bad enough it can take a while to get up and running.

\_0-0_/ AdsL is Hell \_0-0_/
To Infinity
Wats SUP doc.... You using too much.....
Standard User BranH
(newbie) Sun 30-Dec-18 16:14:32
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Re: Openreach monopoly and length of time to repair services


[re: MCM] [link to this post]
 
Oh let me look

Virgin - not available
Gigaclear - not available
Hyperoptic - not available
Vodaphone fibre /llu - not available
Fixed wireless - not available
Any other LLU - not available
ADSL2+ - not available
ADSLmax by BT/Openreach available

Looks like a fixed line monopoly to me
Standard User steve195527
(learned) Sun 30-Dec-18 16:18:25
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Re: Openreach monopoly and length of time to repair services


[re: JohnR] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by JohnR:
But these are our choice not a necessity of our lives.

Lights can be controlled by switches, even timed ones.
Heating as you say via a timed thermostat.
Door bell, well just open the door and see who it is... Not at home, not a problem then. We have managed for years without video door bells smile


Relying on internet to work from home then, Pay for business service & have a back up option not relying on the same lines. So 4G or such.
Of course people want it as cheep as possible. So rely on std service.

Just how would the OP survive if power went down? While you may get compensation. If it's bad enough it can take a while to get up and running.

Seems he is on talk-talk business service from the initial post not the residential service?If you opt for the so called business services offered by some providers what actually do you get extra compared to the standard service if most of the network is controlled/repaired by Openreach?are they,Openreach, under any obligation to repair a breakdown faster or is it just the ISP who your with is obligated to TRY and get repairs done faster?as for relying on 4g as backup,our company uses O2 to send jobs to the epads we all use,that worked well a few weeks back when O2 went down,so how far to you take backups?do you have to have backup services for the backup services etc,I think we are all becoming too reliant on tech for our everyday lives,how has the human race survived so long?after all there were many 1000's yrs before the internet when things got done
Standard User Zarjaz
(eat-sleep-adslguide) Sun 30-Dec-18 16:35:09
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Re: Openreach monopoly and length of time to repair services


[re: BranH] [link to this post]
 
Looks like a fixed line monopoly to me

Because thatís where youíve chosen to live.

Standard User steve195527
(learned) Sun 30-Dec-18 16:52:55
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Re: Openreach monopoly and length of time to repair services


[re: Zarjaz] [link to this post]
 
maybe they lived there before internet/telephone line became the norm?not all houses/householders are post the internet
Standard User kitcat
(experienced) Sun 30-Dec-18 17:57:38
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Re: Openreach monopoly and length of time to repair services


[re: steve195527] [link to this post]
 
Steve

Openreach sell a number of repair levels and the CP/ISPs buy the ones they want. They do not always tell the customer what level they have brought from OR.

It is highly likely that TalkTalk have sold a business service with a 2 day repair underlying service from OR making the business service look cheap or take a higher profit marking.

Other tiers of TalkTalk business may have the one day or even 5 hour repair but will cost more.

In other words you get what you pay for and need to read the terms of your service and ask questions if it is not clear. The OP obviously did not rate the higher service or just wanted the cheap package.
Standard User BranH
(newbie) Sun 30-Dec-18 18:03:39
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Re: Openreach monopoly and length of time to repair services


[re: steve195527] [link to this post]
 
Broadband did not become available until after we'd move to the house. Some people forget that not everybody lives in town or city or moves every few years.
My choice is limited because there is only the monopoly provider and no one else wants to serve the area.
Standard User ggremlin
(experienced) Sun 30-Dec-18 18:25:05
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Re: Openreach monopoly and length of time to repair services


[re: BranH] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by BranH:
My choice is limited because there is only the monopoly provider and no one else wants to serve the area.
think yourself lucky that this 'monopoly' suppler is there to provide a service you so desire.
Standard User Zarjaz
(eat-sleep-adslguide) Sun 30-Dec-18 21:05:17
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Re: Openreach monopoly and length of time to repair services


[re: steve195527] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by steve195527:
maybe they lived there before internet/telephone line became the norm?not all houses/householders are post the internet

Maybe, but then if it is so very important, as the OP is implying, then maybe they ought to move to where there is flexibility and choice.

Standard User MCM
(knowledge is power) Sun 30-Dec-18 21:51:41
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Re: Openreach monopoly and length of time to repair services


[re: BranH] [link to this post]
 
You clearly do not understand or know the meaning of the word monopoly.

Monopoly: the exclusive possession or control of the supply of or trade in a commodity or service. "the state's monopoly of radio and television broadcasting"

Openreach has no exclusive possession or control, anybody who cares to do so can provide a connection.

Nothing is preventing any other supplier from sticking copper or fibre in the ground other than simple economics. You could even pay and have it done for you but I expect you think someone else should pay rather than make a contribution yourself.
Standard User Andrue
(eat-sleep-adslguide) Mon 31-Dec-18 11:08:03
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Re: Openreach monopoly and length of time to repair services


[re: BranH] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by BranH:
Broadband did not become available until after we'd move to the house. Some people forget that not everybody lives in town or city or moves every few years.
My choice is limited because there is only the monopoly provider and no one else wants to serve the area.
As has already been pointed out you do not appear to understand what the word 'monopoly' means. A monopoly would be when other providers do not exist or are being blocked by some entity. That does not apply here. Other providers can offer you a service if you/they can come to an agreement over costs.

You should be (somewhat) grateful that the ubiquity of openreach means they have large enough economies of scale to offer you a service at all wink

---
Andrue Cope
Brackley, UK

Edited by Andrue (Mon 31-Dec-18 11:11:13)

Standard User zom22
(member) Mon 31-Dec-18 17:28:30
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Re: Openreach monopoly and length of time to repair services


[re: Andrue] [link to this post]
 
In the UK the competition authorities regard any firm having more than 25% of the market as a monopoly.
That means BT is indeed a monopoly in certain areas.

I disagree with the other posters saying it is not
Others providers are free to come in and provide a service but if their price is £500K+ to do so then the incumbent provider has an effective monopoly.
A monopoly does not have to have some legal restriction against others form operating in the sector to be defined as a Monopoly
After all that exactly why OFCOM set up the market 1,2,3 exchange classification business to encourage LLU operators as they regarded BT as having a monopoly in certain areas.

BT not far off from a "Natural Monopoly" as is the case with the railway tracks. While other are free to build their own parallel running rail tracks we all know that in reality this is a non starter from an economic position.

The classic economic definition of a monopoly is a single seller in the market. It does not require the mere possibility of another entrant into the market to make the situation not a monopoly.
The market is what the market is at the time of consideration and not one which might be possible if you chuck are few million around to make it different.
Standard User MCM
(knowledge is power) Mon 31-Dec-18 17:36:32
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Re: Openreach monopoly and length of time to repair services


[re: zom22] [link to this post]
 
Others providers are free to come in and provide a service but if their price is £500K+ to do so then the incumbent provider has an effective monopoly.
Rubbish. Other providers ARE free to come in and provide a service and many are doing so. VM, Gigaclear, CityFibre, Hyperoptic to name just four. That providing such a service requires them to expend capital does not mean that Openreach has a monopoly simply because it has already invested capital and others have chosen as yet not to do so in some areas..
Standard User Andrue
(eat-sleep-adslguide) Mon 31-Dec-18 19:51:50
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Re: Openreach monopoly and length of time to repair services


[re: zom22] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by zom22:
Others providers are free to come in and provide a service but if their price is £500K+ to do so then the incumbent provider has an effective monopoly.
But taking that as an example there are only three possibilities:

£500K+ is more than openreach would charge and is excessive - not openreach's fault.
£500K+ is what openreach also charges and is therefore a reasonable amount - not openreach's fault.
£500K+ is less than what openreach charges so is a good price - not openreach's fault.

The mere fact that competitors are in a position to offer to install the service for £500K+ means that openreach do not have a monopoly. You can't claim a monopoly just because something is expensive.

---
Andrue Cope
Brackley, UK

Edited by Andrue (Mon 31-Dec-18 19:52:55)

Standard User steve195527
(learned) Mon 31-Dec-18 23:15:56
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Re: Openreach monopoly and length of time to repair services


[re: MCM] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by MCM:
Others providers are free to come in and provide a service but if their price is £500K+ to do so then the incumbent provider has an effective monopoly.
Rubbish. Other providers ARE free to come in and provide a service and many are doing so. VM, Gigaclear, CityFibre, Hyperoptic to name just four. That providing such a service requires them to expend capital does not mean that Openreach has a monopoly simply because it has already invested capital and others have chosen as yet not to do so in some areas..

openreaches network was paid for by the govt when it was a state owned(under a different name:-part of the post office I believe form 1880 )before it was sold off,so they haven't invested anywhere near the capital that any company starting from scratch would have to do

http://www.britishtelephones.com/histuk.htm
if this relates to the exchange that is being discussed what BranH wrote:-

"Oh let me look

Virgin - not available
Gigaclear - not available
Hyperoptic - not available
Vodaphone fibre /llu - not available
Fixed wireless - not available
Any other LLU - not available
ADSL2+ - not available
ADSLmax by BT/Openreach available

Looks like a fixed line monopoly to me"

then for that exchange I have yo agree it is a monopoly as no other choice exists

Edited by steve195527 (Mon 31-Dec-18 23:24:12)

Standard User MCM
(knowledge is power) Tue 01-Jan-19 00:30:54
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Re: Openreach monopoly and length of time to repair services


[re: steve195527] [link to this post]
 
openreaches network was paid for by the govt
For which the government was paid when BT was floated in 1991. I think the capitalisation when floated was around £8 billion which sum HMG would have received - perhaps more as I think BT may have been floated in stages.

That other possible suppliers choose not to invest in a particular location does not mean the incumbent is a monopoly as there is nothing to prevent others from investing in local infrastructure.
Standard User steve195527
(learned) Tue 01-Jan-19 01:38:52
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Re: Openreach monopoly and length of time to repair services


[re: MCM] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by MCM:
openreaches network was paid for by the govt
For which the government was paid when BT was floated in 1991. I think the capitalisation when floated was around £8 billion which sum HMG would have received - perhaps more as I think BT may have been floated in stages.

That other possible suppliers choose not to invest in a particular location does not mean the incumbent is a monopoly as there is nothing to prevent others from investing in local infrastructure.

so the money the govt got didn't come from bt directly but from money got by the selling off a public owned company,bt never had to find the funds to develop the network themselves,it was already there and paid for,why haven't they replaced all of the old(victorian)infrastructure?because it would cost too much and other companies wanting to develop a national network are in the same boat,how long has virgin in it various historic guises been trying?how much of the country is on their network?just because the others are allowed to develop a network doesn't mean in practice bt/openreach doesn't have a monopoly in most of the country,if you think they haven't in reality then you are living in an imaginary uk,I'm talking about real world not dictionary definitions
Would you consider Kingston Communication to hold a monopoly?others are allowed to provide a service around the Hull area but none do?

Edited by steve195527 (Tue 01-Jan-19 01:42:19)

Standard User MCM
(knowledge is power) Tue 01-Jan-19 12:07:11
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Re: Openreach monopoly and length of time to repair services


[re: steve195527] [link to this post]
 
,bt never had to find the funds to develop the network themselves,it was already there and paid for
BT through its shareholders paid for the network when they bought the company from the Government. Not only that they paid for all of it over a few months rather than 70 or 80 years or whatever when the company was owned by the government.

why haven't they replaced all of the old(victorian)infrastructure?
BT has spent billions since it was floated on updating and expanding its network. If anything it has been hindered here by the government, OFTEL and OFCOM in that for the time being BT is required to maintain its copper network rather than move faster towards a full fibre network. Naturally, given that BT is not a charity but answerable to its shareholders, it invests the bulk of its funds in areas where it has some expectation of seeing a return on its investment.

I would suggest that those who feel that BT has passed them by, be they living in the most rural of areas or in a city centre, look to the like of B4RN, put their hands in their pockets and do something about it for themselves. Incidentally I live south of the river in central London and together with 74 neighbours gap funded the installation of an AIO cabinet at a cost of c£19K. Others both rural and urban have done similarly as are all those paying for an FTTPod connection.
Standard User steve195527
(learned) Tue 01-Jan-19 12:53:43
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Re: Openreach monopoly and length of time to repair services


[re: MCM] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by MCM:
,bt never had to find the funds to develop the network themselves,it was already there and paid for
BT through its shareholders paid for the network when they bought the company from the Government. Not only that they paid for all of it over a few months rather than 70 or 80 years or whatever when the company was owned by the government.

why haven't they replaced all of the old(victorian)infrastructure?
BT has spent billions since it was floated on updating and expanding its network. If anything it has been hindered here by the government, OFTEL and OFCOM in that for the time being BT is required to maintain its copper network rather than move faster towards a full fibre network. Naturally, given that BT is not a charity but answerable to its shareholders, it invests the bulk of its funds in areas where it has some expectation of seeing a return on its investment.

I would suggest that those who feel that BT has passed them by, be they living in the most rural of areas or in a city centre, look to the like of B4RN, put their hands in their pockets and do something about it for themselves. Incidentally I live south of the river in central London and together with 74 neighbours gap funded the installation of an AIO cabinet at a cost of c£19K. Others both rural and urban have done similarly as are all those paying for an FTTPod connection.

so is that what this boils down to?you paid for a service so everybody else who wants a good service should also pay?In a rural setting the installation would probably be far more expensive and have far fewer folk able to share the costs involved and possibly income/disposable income will be lower, Londoners seem to think £2m for a house is ok too,different world
Standard User Andrue
(eat-sleep-adslguide) Tue 01-Jan-19 19:24:19
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Re: Openreach monopoly and length of time to repair services


[re: steve195527] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by steve195527:
In reply to a post by MCM:
Others providers are free to come in and provide a service but if their price is £500K+ to do so then the incumbent provider has an effective monopoly.
Rubbish. Other providers ARE free to come in and provide a service and many are doing so. VM, Gigaclear, CityFibre, Hyperoptic to name just four. That providing such a service requires them to expend capital does not mean that Openreach has a monopoly simply because it has already invested capital and others have chosen as yet not to do so in some areas..

openreaches network was paid for by the govt when it was a state owned(under a different name:-part of the post office I believe form 1880 )before it was sold off,so they haven't invested anywhere near the capital that any company starting from scratch would have to do
Oh God, not that old load of claptrap yet again. BT bought the network(*) from the government in 1984. That was nearly thirty five years ago. Do you think BT have not invested any money in it since? What about digitisation. ADSL. VDSL, now FTTP. What about the fact they transformed an unreliable and expensive network into one of the best voice networks in the world and (at least from the point of availability and affordability) one of the better data networks?

What about the fact there are now roughly 25% more houses in the UK than there was back in the 1980s? Did the PO pre lay all the infrastructure for that?

You lot really need to stop banging on about ancient history, or at least try and get some accuracy into your whines. I mean, what next - are you going to have a go at William Pitt the Younger for his tax hikes?

(*)Well shareholders did, anyway.

---
Andrue Cope
Brackley, UK

Edited by Andrue (Tue 01-Jan-19 19:26:02)

Standard User Andrue
(eat-sleep-adslguide) Tue 01-Jan-19 19:32:29
Print Post

Re: Openreach monopoly and length of time to repair services


[re: steve195527] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by steve195527:
In reply to a post by MCM:
,bt never had to find the funds to develop the network themselves,it was already there and paid for
BT through its shareholders paid for the network when they bought the company from the Government. Not only that they paid for all of it over a few months rather than 70 or 80 years or whatever when the company was owned by the government.

why haven't they replaced all of the old(victorian)infrastructure?
BT has spent billions since it was floated on updating and expanding its network. If anything it has been hindered here by the government, OFTEL and OFCOM in that for the time being BT is required to maintain its copper network rather than move faster towards a full fibre network. Naturally, given that BT is not a charity but answerable to its shareholders, it invests the bulk of its funds in areas where it has some expectation of seeing a return on its investment.

I would suggest that those who feel that BT has passed them by, be they living in the most rural of areas or in a city centre, look to the like of B4RN, put their hands in their pockets and do something about it for themselves. Incidentally I live south of the river in central London and together with 74 neighbours gap funded the installation of an AIO cabinet at a cost of c£19K. Others both rural and urban have done similarly as are all those paying for an FTTPod connection.

so is that what this boils down to?you paid for a service so everybody else who wants a good service should also pay?
Yes, it's called 'living in the real world'. And you're exaggerating - there are many millions of people served by BT who are (or were initially at least) being subsidised by more profitable areas. The idea of a utopia where everything is free and people can just wave a magic wand and have anything their heart desires is silly and unrealistic. There has to come a point where providers are allowed to just hold their hand up and either stop or (as will soon the be the case for BT) get additional costs paid for by the customer.

Upgrading the UK's telephone network is a big and expensive project. It isn't reasonable to expect one company to cover every last hen house, chicken house and out house for the same price.

---
Andrue Cope
Brackley, UK
Standard User JohnR
(eat-sleep-adslguide) Tue 01-Jan-19 21:49:05
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Re: Openreach monopoly and length of time to repair services


[re: Andrue] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by Andrue:
Upgrading the UK's telephone network is a big and expensive project. It isn't reasonable to expect one company to cover every last hen house, chicken house and out house for the same price.


But everyone expects BT to do this, while saying it's OK for other co's to cherry pick the profitable area's.

Maybe not the best idea. But there is some merit in core systems being public owned & run and then companies pay to access it and sell on.

\_0-0_/ AdsL is Hell \_0-0_/
To Infinity
Wats SUP doc.... You using too much.....
Standard User GonePostal
(member) Wed 02-Jan-19 01:11:56
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Re: Openreach monopoly and length of time to repair services


[re: JohnR] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by JohnR:
But there is some merit in core systems being public owned & run and then companies pay to access it and sell on.


Like the railway, then?
Standard User Andrue
(eat-sleep-adslguide) Wed 02-Jan-19 07:48:40
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Re: Openreach monopoly and length of time to repair services


[re: JohnR] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by JohnR:
In reply to a post by Andrue:
Upgrading the UK's telephone network is a big and expensive project. It isn't reasonable to expect one company to cover every last hen house, chicken house and out house for the same price.


But everyone expects BT to do this, while saying it's OK for other co's to cherry pick the profitable area's.

Maybe not the best idea. But there is some merit in core systems being public owned & run and then companies pay to access it and sell on.
Some merit, yes. But only if (and it's a big if) they can operate them well. The UK's track record on public ownership of the telephone network is not good. Admittedly that was a government of over 35 years ago but it should still serve as a warning. I'd also make the general observation that governments are not renowned for being good at organising large projects. They are usually over budget and late to complete. I'd also personally wonder what it is any government has done in the past fifty years that encourages anyone to see them as the solution to any problem.

Given their stance on security and the introduction of 'The Snooper's Charter' and censorship in the name of 'protecting the children' I'd also wonder if it's wise to give them even more control over the national data infrastructure. Oh and since this discussion started with a complaint about monopolies we should of course ask if government control (which would guarantee a monopoly) is an appropriate solution.

---
Andrue Cope
Brackley, UK
Standard User sheephouse
(member) Wed 02-Jan-19 09:57:20
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Re: Openreach monopoly and length of time to repair services


[re: GonePostal] [link to this post]
 
Rather than the railways, a better example of how it could be done is probably the National Grid for electricity distribution.
Standard User burble
(member) Wed 02-Jan-19 10:33:45
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Re: Openreach monopoly and length of time to repair services


[re: sheephouse] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by sheephouse:
Rather than the railways, a better example of how it could be done is probably the National Grid for electricity distribution.

For the past month or so I've been piggy in the middle between UKPowernetworks and EON, over an upgrade of the supply to our workshops, thank god it doesn't also involve National Grid.
Administrator MrSaffron
(staff) Wed 02-Jan-19 11:57:58
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Re: Openreach monopoly and length of time to repair services


[re: burble] [link to this post]
 
I have more power outages each year than broadband ones

The author of the above post is a thinkbroadband staff member. It may not constitute an official statement on behalf of thinkbroadband.
Standard User Chrysalis
(legend) Fri 04-Jan-19 15:32:18
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Re: Openreach monopoly and length of time to repair services


[re: BranH] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by BranH:
Broadband did not become available until after we'd move to the house. Some people forget that not everybody lives in town or city or moves every few years.
My choice is limited because there is only the monopoly provider and no one else wants to serve the area.


That may be, but you do have a choice of retail providers which has been pointed to you can and does affect the 1 day or 2 day part of the contract, you chose a provider who cut corners in this respect, you probably chose them because they were one of the cheaper options. Also openreach work sundays, but I dont know the specifics of how one gets a callout on a sunday.

Things are not as rosy for openreach as may seem, they provide service to parts of the country others wont touch with a bargepole because those areas might be loss making, also they are heavily regulated by ofcom.

Sky Fibre Pro BQM - IPv4 BQM - IPv6
Standard User sheephouse
(member) Fri 04-Jan-19 16:16:10
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Re: Openreach monopoly and length of time to repair services


[re: MrSaffron] [link to this post]
 
Maybe, but at least everyone has electricity, and it is all to the same specification. If electricity was distributed in the same way as broadband some of us would still be using oil lamps.
Standard User dect
(learned) Fri 04-Jan-19 16:30:20
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Re: Openreach monopoly and length of time to repair services


[re: MCM] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by MCM:
BT was floated in 1991.

It was originally floated in 1984 (approx. 50% of shares were sold and 50% retained) and government then sold its remaining shares in 1991
Administrator MrSaffron
(staff) Fri 04-Jan-19 16:34:29
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Re: Openreach monopoly and length of time to repair services


[re: sheephouse] [link to this post]
 
There are a few locations with no mains, i.e. their own generators and roll-out started a very long time ago.

Electricity they settled on a standard after a good number of years where different towns had different standards.

Also its not all the same specification, business users pay for more higher capacity links, and we pay per kilo Watt hour.

The author of the above post is a thinkbroadband staff member. It may not constitute an official statement on behalf of thinkbroadband.
Standard User RobertoS
(elder) Fri 04-Jan-19 16:43:07
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Re: Openreach monopoly and length of time to repair services


[re: sheephouse] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by sheephouse:
Maybe, but at least everyone has electricity, and it is all to the same specification. If electricity was distributed in the same way as broadband some of us would still be using oil lamps.
There are thousands of homes in Cornwall that have FTTP but no gas supply. They have to use tanker-supplied oil or gas cylinders for non-electric heating.

My broadband basic info/help site - www.robertos.me.uk. Domains, site and mail hosting - Tsohost.
Connection - Three 4G, tbb tests 35-45Mpbs down, 9-15 up.
==================================================
If you never think of anything off the wall, you'll never think of anything original.
Standard User dect
(learned) Fri 04-Jan-19 16:55:56
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Re: Openreach monopoly and length of time to repair services


[re: RobertoS] [link to this post]
 
I don't have a gas supply and to be honest am glad I don't
Standard User burble
(member) Fri 04-Jan-19 17:12:27
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Re: Openreach monopoly and length of time to repair services


[re: sheephouse] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by sheephouse:
Maybe, but at least everyone has electricity, and it is all to the same specification. If electricity was distributed in the same way as broadband some of us would still be using oil lamps.

You have obviously never seen my previous posts on our saga regarding connection to electricity, we where the next house from end of the line, a matter of at most a hundred yards, the initial quote was for tens of thousands of pound to get electricity, as luck would have it soon after a general upgrade was made to the lines and we got a reasonable price for connection, the next house along from us still uses a generator as they thought the price for connection was too high.
Standard User warweezil
(fountain of knowledge) Fri 04-Jan-19 19:47:20
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Re: Openreach monopoly and length of time to repair services


[re: RobertoS] [link to this post]
 
Better yet, there are a couple of villages in Pembrokeshire - that exist (literally) in the shadow of the very plants that process the Liquified Natural Gas that is imported to the UK by tanker and injected into the grid by these plants, but the villages have no mains gas. Many more places sit above the pipeline that runs across the country - also with no access to mains gas.

Any ISP that thinks that selling my click traffic is acceptable is MisinPHORMed
VIVACITI 80/20 FTTC
SWPM PCP29 - Still suffering Random drops and intermittent high error counts

BQM - looking better than it has been....
Standard User Andrue
(eat-sleep-adslguide) Fri 04-Jan-19 21:19:30
Print Post

Re: Openreach monopoly and length of time to repair services


[re: MrSaffron] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by MrSaffron:
Also its not all the same specification, business users pay for more higher capacity links, and we pay per kilo Watt hour.
Very true. I wonder what the electricity market would look like if pricing was based on allowances and/or if unlimited consumption packages existed. Of course fundamentally the two cannot be compared because for all practical purposes bandwidth is not a consumable resource. You can't 'run out' of bandwidth the way you can run out of fuel for power stations.

Both do however suffer from contention. It's just much more difficult to overload a power substation or to fry the supply to a house. I've seen the supply to an office fried though that was due to severely unbalanced phases.

---
Andrue Cope
Brackley, UK
Standard User MCM
(knowledge is power) Fri 04-Jan-19 21:29:59
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Re: Openreach monopoly and length of time to repair services


[re: dect] [link to this post]
 
It was originally floated in 1984
Thank you. I was aware of my error and that 1991 was the sale of the final tranche. All I can say is that I hope never to return to the appalling service, or rather lack of, supplied by British Telecom (and before that Post Office Telecommunications) when still part of the Post Office. A two month wait for the installation of a new line being the norm and often longer.

Given the subject of this thread the Post Office had the exclusive privilege of running telecommunications systems with listed powers to authorise others to run such systems. In other words the PO was a monopoly unlike BT today.
Standard User dect
(learned) Fri 04-Jan-19 22:01:11
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Re: Openreach monopoly and length of time to repair services


[re: MCM] [link to this post]
 
To be fair I personally think all nationalised companies/services were poorly managed during that period (70s and 80s). I also remember the time customers had to wait for a new line as I was working for them at the time.

With regards to BT still being a monopoly, everyone will have an opinion and it really doesn't matter either way as nothing will change so we are where we are.
Standard User MCM
(knowledge is power) Fri 04-Jan-19 22:08:13
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Re: Openreach monopoly and length of time to repair services


[re: dect] [link to this post]
 
it really doesn't matter either way as nothing will change so we are where we are.
Indeed and a good summary that encompasses all opinions.
Standard User Icaras
(experienced) Sun 06-Jan-19 21:52:46
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Re: Openreach monopoly and length of time to repair services


[re: ajd1] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by ajd1:
and they also do not work on a Sunday!


That just isnít true! I donít know why TalkTalk and Sky perpetuate this myth!

In reply to a post by steve195527:
In reply to a post by MCM:
openreaches network was paid for by the govt
For which the government was paid when BT was floated in 1991. I think the capitalisation when floated was around £8 billion which sum HMG would have received - perhaps more as I think BT may have been floated in stages.

That other possible suppliers choose not to invest in a particular location does not mean the incumbent is a monopoly as there is nothing to prevent others from investing in local infrastructure.
why haven't they replaced all of the old(victorian)infrastructure?


They have! The vast majority of the network is copper PET (and some aluminium) cabling. If it hadnít been replaced then the vast majority of cabling would be paper insulated, and anyone thatís worked in the network would tell you that isnít the case.

Itís absolutely correct that BT have spent many billions on the network, way before FTTC came along. Donít forget that the exchanges were linked to each other by fibre from the 80s onwards. Prior to that it was all trunk copper cabling. And most of the (previously overhead) D-side network was buried.

I think you need to read up on whatís been done before commenting.

Icaras

Edited by Icaras (Sun 06-Jan-19 22:04:00)

Standard User partial
(experienced) Mon 07-Jan-19 11:26:24
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Re: Openreach monopoly and length of time to repair services


[re: Icaras] [link to this post]
 
I reckon half the copper network is paper core as the main side is nearly all paper core.

802
Standard User dect
(learned) Mon 07-Jan-19 11:47:33
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Re: Openreach monopoly and length of time to repair services


[re: partial] [link to this post]
 
This is a quote from an official BT document dated 2015

"Lead-sheathed cable was installed in the ground up until the late 1960s, but is still very common. It comprises of an outer layer of lead Ė sometimes wrapped in hessian and bitumen for protection, with a paper-wrapped copper core."
Standard User partial
(experienced) Mon 07-Jan-19 12:09:09
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Re: Openreach monopoly and length of time to repair services


[re: dect] [link to this post]
 
White polythene sheathed paper core was still being installed on the main side in the mid 70s.

802
Standard User dect
(learned) Mon 07-Jan-19 12:18:19
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Re: Openreach monopoly and length of time to repair services


[re: partial] [link to this post]
 
Sounds like a lots of paper core 'could' still be in existence.

Is there anyone reading this who still working for BT in this area who could comment?
Standard User kitcat
(experienced) Mon 07-Jan-19 16:14:47
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Re: Openreach monopoly and length of time to repair services


[re: dect] [link to this post]
 
Dect /Partial

Main refers to trunk/ junction cables not access. Most of these have now been recovered by BT ( Or thieves) for the copper. All the trunk cables have been Fibre since the late 80s and 99%+ of the junction ones (Exchange -Exchange) only exchange activate sites and occasional resilient routes now use copper cables. (Information from an OFCOM information request to BT that I saw around 2010-12).

Any Paper in the access network from prior to the 80s is likely to have degraded in the damp conditions that are prevalent in the access network. Even where large cables were pressurised to keep water out breakages would have let water ingress over the last 40 years. There may be a little but not lots.

Zargaz may be able to say how often he sees any!
Standard User partial
(experienced) Mon 07-Jan-19 16:34:39
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Re: Openreach monopoly and length of time to repair services


[re: kitcat] [link to this post]
 
Thanks. I spend most of my time these days testing and locating on the mainside electrically and pneumatically. So It's good to be schooled on such matters. crazy

802
Standard User dect
(learned) Mon 07-Jan-19 16:45:04
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Re: Openreach monopoly and length of time to repair services


[re: kitcat] [link to this post]
 
OK thanks for the explanation

Edited by dect (Mon 07-Jan-19 17:23:25)

Standard User partial
(experienced) Mon 07-Jan-19 16:50:39
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Re: Openreach monopoly and length of time to repair services


[re: dect] [link to this post]
 
The mainside goes from the exchange to the cabinet. When you get a job on such things the Class of Work is LMC - guess what the M stands for? smile

802
Standard User Zarjaz
(eat-sleep-adslguide) Mon 07-Jan-19 17:37:14
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Re: Openreach monopoly and length of time to repair services


[re: kitcat] [link to this post]
 
Zarjaz may be able to say how often he sees any!

I could recount only three lead and paper lengths I have worked on in the last 21 years ..... and of these I am aware of two of those lengths having been replaced now. The other may have been to, just Iíve not revisited that particular joint for many years.

I dare say thereís odds and sods around still, but nothing as earth shattering as the doom mongers would have us belive.

Standard User dect
(learned) Mon 07-Jan-19 17:53:10
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Re: Openreach monopoly and length of time to repair services


[re: Zarjaz] [link to this post]
 
Hi Zarjaz

In reply to a post by Zarjaz:
nothing as earth shattering as the doom mongers would have us belive.
Below was a quote from a BT document dated 2015 and not from a doom monger smile the mistake must be with the BT guys who write these documents.

In reply to a post by dect:
"Lead-sheathed cable was installed in the ground up until the late 1960s, but is still very common. It comprises of an outer layer of lead Ė sometimes wrapped in hessian and bitumen for protection, with a paper-wrapped copper core."
Standard User partial
(experienced) Mon 07-Jan-19 18:01:01
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Re: Openreach monopoly and length of time to repair services


[re: Zarjaz] [link to this post]
 
For reference, how many cables have you opened up between the exchange and cabinet?

802
Standard User Zarjaz
(eat-sleep-adslguide) Mon 07-Jan-19 18:57:31
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Re: Openreach monopoly and length of time to repair services


[re: dect] [link to this post]
 
the mistake must be with the BT guys who write these documents.

...reckon so.

Standard User Zarjaz
(eat-sleep-adslguide) Mon 07-Jan-19 18:58:15
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Re: Openreach monopoly and length of time to repair services


[re: partial] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by partial:
For reference, how many cables have you opened up between the exchange and cabinet?

None, I was talking D side innit.

Standard User partial
(experienced) Mon 07-Jan-19 21:24:51
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Re: Openreach monopoly and length of time to repair services


[re: Zarjaz] [link to this post]
 
So why tell Dect he is wrong when you have no experience of half of the local network. blush

The mainside is virtually all papercore. Nothing wrong with that, it is mostly extremely well made cable and there is a big focus on keeping it giving good service electrically and pneumatically at the moment.

I haven't fitted an NTE for over 20 years. following your logic, I presume they have all been phased out now. wink

802

Edited by partial (Mon 07-Jan-19 21:25:50)

Standard User RobertoS
(elder) Mon 07-Jan-19 21:29:35
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Re: Openreach monopoly and length of time to repair services


[re: partial] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by partial:
I haven't fitted an NTE for over 20 years. following your logic, I presume they have all been phased out now. wink
Mine has. And I haven't moved to VM. Nor moved from my house for the last 46 years.

My broadband basic info/help site - www.robertos.me.uk. Domains, site and mail hosting - Tsohost.
Connection - Three 4G, tbb tests 35-45Mpbs down, 9-15 up.
==================================================
If you never think of anything off the wall, you'll never think of anything original.
Standard User RobertoS
(elder) Mon 07-Jan-19 21:34:56
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Re: Openreach monopoly and length of time to repair services


[re: partial] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by partial:
So why tell Dect he is wrong when you have no experience of half of the local network.
Surely the total mileage of D-side far exceeds that of E-side? Probably by at least one order of magnitude maybe even two.

The number of individual circuits in the E-side isn't relevant as they are in bulk cables, and only the "cable miles" matter, not the circuit miles.

Replace one mile of bulk cable and you replace the number of circuit miles equal to the number of pairs in the cable.

My broadband basic info/help site - www.robertos.me.uk. Domains, site and mail hosting - Tsohost.
Connection - Three 4G, tbb tests 35-45Mpbs down, 9-15 up.
==================================================
If you never think of anything off the wall, you'll never think of anything original.
Standard User Zarjaz
(eat-sleep-adslguide) Mon 07-Jan-19 22:36:34
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Re: Openreach monopoly and length of time to repair services


[re: partial] [link to this post]
 
I didnít say he was wrong, and admitted to no experience of working Ďhands oníon the E side network .....

They wonít replace these E side cables now, no point, their services are to be less and less required with SOGEA coming and PSTN being phased out....

Standard User dect
(learned) Mon 07-Jan-19 23:05:13
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Re: Openreach monopoly and length of time to repair services


[re: partial] [link to this post]
 
In an exchange area I worked some of the 90s (I know that's 20+ years ago now so a lot could have changed) about 95% of all exchange lines / private wires were EO (e.g. no cabs straight to DP's in basements) and most of those main cables were paper core connected to tag frames. I am not talking about an exchange in a rural location I am referring to one of the busiest exchanges in the world at that time.
Standard User Icaras
(experienced) Tue 08-Jan-19 09:29:07
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Re: Openreach monopoly and length of time to repair services


[re: kitcat] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by kitcat:
Zargaz may be able to say how often he sees any!


What about me?! What do you think I do?

Itís a fair point about the E-side though, it simply didnít occur to me. Itís pressurised, and mostly we just do pair changes on that. Itís becoming less relevant these days anyway with FTTC.

But I can say the same as Zarjaz. Iíve only ever seen paper insulated cabling twice!

Icaras

Edited by Icaras (Tue 08-Jan-19 09:31:25)

Standard User dect
(learned) Tue 08-Jan-19 13:10:39
Print Post

Re: Openreach monopoly and length of time to repair services


[re: Zarjaz] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by Zarjaz:
They wonít replace these E side cables now, no point, their services are to be less and less required with SOGEA coming and PSTN being phased out....
Think most people would agree that it doesn't make sense to replace those E sides now but although there is talk of phasing PSTN out its not going to happen until full fibre is wide spread which is not likely to happen any time soon with the continued rollout of G.fast. The PSTN network has served us well from the days of Strowger (loved watching those selectors do their stuff) through the TXE4 and System X days (not sure what is being used today).
Standard User kitcat
(experienced) Tue 08-Jan-19 13:53:58
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Re: Openreach monopoly and length of time to repair services


[re: dect] [link to this post]
 
Dect

OTA2 (OFCOM) update for Decemberissued today says stop PSTN sale in 4 years (2023) and close PSTN in 6 years (2025)

"WLR Withdrawal Programme

Following the consultation on WLR Withdrawal in 2018, the OTA2 have been working with Openreach to establish an industry engagement process. The main-focus is the jointly chaired steering group which has now met twice. A series of future engagements are being established for 2019. The main challenges will revolve around communication/awareness through the supply chain, covering wholesalers and resellers as well as identifying vulnerable customers and over the top services which can rely on traditional telephone access. The key dates of stop sell in 2023 and final closure in 2025 are some time away but will require all CPs (using WLR) to transition to an all IP service in good time."

PSTN is still Sys X, AXE0 and a tiny amount of 21CN TES in S Wales, plus UXD5 in small 600 odd tiny rural exchanges. That's why is has to close or it will fall apart!
Standard User dect
(learned) Tue 08-Jan-19 14:21:33
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Re: Openreach monopoly and length of time to repair services


[re: kitcat] [link to this post]
 
Thanks for this update smile
In reply to a post by kitcat:
says stop PSTN sale in 4 years (2023) and close PSTN in 6 years (2025)
I remember reading a little while ago about the 2025 date for PSTN closure but when I read that the target for full fibre was estimated at 2033 I thought it wouldn't be possible.

It will be interesting to see what happens to those existing PSTN customers who can't get full fibre by then or even half decent broadband to support VOIP

Edited by dect (Tue 08-Jan-19 14:22:43)

Standard User kitcat
(experienced) Tue 08-Jan-19 14:22:10
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Re: Openreach monopoly and length of time to repair services


[re: Icaras] [link to this post]
 
Icarus

Apologies for missing you out!.

I am aware of a few people in different parts of OR on here, Zarjaz was just the first name that came to mind.( Partial on E-side, you and Zarjaz on D-Side and Customer prem, Witchunt in planning are the most prominent. There are others that appear occasionally.)
Standard User kitcat
(experienced) Tue 08-Jan-19 15:06:29
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Re: Openreach monopoly and length of time to repair services


[re: dect] [link to this post]
 
Dect

VOIP doesn't need half decent BB. ( USO of 10Mb = Half decent BB) but only 128Kb (or less for cheap services). If the implementation gives a separate VLAN for VOIP, so that any data use does not contend, 128Kb is plenty. This is the sort of service BT's FVA service runs on using ORs FTTP 128kb path.

If you do not use a separate VLAN, priority settings on the packets can be set so that Voice has a higher priority than data giving the same result. Difficulty is that some providers set Video higher than voice so streaming can crash your voice service.

Sensible prioritisation would be Voice, Video, Data but you get what you pay for so cheap(free) = poor, expensive = good but expensive is relative, may only be £1.50-£2 month over the BB price. Calls should be cheaper than mobile as the only costly part is the routing/portability part and that is the same engine a mobile network uses.

VOIP works fine on ADSL at present, I had BT's first offering back in 200? on their HUB with an attached phone. Worked a treat back then.
Standard User dect
(learned) Tue 08-Jan-19 15:54:09
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Re: Openreach monopoly and length of time to repair services


[re: kitcat] [link to this post]
 
Hi kitcat

Thanks for taking the time to explain this smile
Administrator MrSaffron
(staff) Tue 08-Jan-19 18:32:10
Print Post

Re: Openreach monopoly and length of time to repair services


[re: kitcat] [link to this post]
 
Having sat through a day of this...

PSTN switch off does not mean copper ripped out of the ground, it means the WLR phone service in its current format will cease, and replaced with a voice over broadband (VOIP) product. So can still be delivered over copper e.g. in VDSL2 areas or even over BT Wholesale ADSL2+. Not an easy task as there are all those with a phone line and no broadband that need dealing with and vulnerable users who will get battery back up for the broadband device and phone

The copper has to remain to continue support for MPF i.e. those with devices that won't work with a VOIP style delivery can do things like switch to TalkTalk who as of 2018 was planning to carry on as they do now.

The author of the above post is a thinkbroadband staff member. It may not constitute an official statement on behalf of thinkbroadband.
Standard User dect
(learned) Tue 08-Jan-19 19:17:09
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Re: Openreach monopoly and length of time to repair services


[re: MrSaffron] [link to this post]
 
A couple of things that just crossed my mind so I thought I would ask smile

will ADSL, VDSL and G.fast still work if the 20+ volts that is used to deliver the exchange line is removed (e.g. System X is switched off) from the line? I know ADSL can still work when there is one leg DIS but not sure if it will with both legs DIS at the exchange. Also if there is no dial tone on the pair is it more likely that faults will be caused by engineers nicking pairs in error. frown
Standard User Chrysalis
(legend) Tue 08-Jan-19 19:24:42
Print Post

Re: Openreach monopoly and length of time to repair services


[re: Andrue] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by Andrue:
In reply to a post by MrSaffron:
Also its not all the same specification, business users pay for more higher capacity links, and we pay per kilo Watt hour.
Very true. I wonder what the electricity market would look like if pricing was based on allowances and/or if unlimited consumption packages existed. Of course fundamentally the two cannot be compared because for all practical purposes bandwidth is not a consumable resource. You can't 'run out' of bandwidth the way you can run out of fuel for power stations.

Both do however suffer from contention. It's just much more difficult to overload a power substation or to fry the supply to a house. I've seen the supply to an office fried though that was due to severely unbalanced phases.


I get power cuts every christmas, which ironically is the highest load on the grid time of the year, so electric supply in the uk is not flawless.

This year they at least announced the outage before it happened, but since the outage when they also did some work, now everytime my boiler power cycles and my kettle is on at the same time, the lights flicker, and my UPS kicks in. I wonder if they reduced the capacity per property to try and stem the overload on the grid.

Sky Fibre Pro BQM - IPv4 BQM - IPv6
Standard User RobertoS
(elder) Tue 08-Jan-19 19:27:53
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Re: Openreach monopoly and length of time to repair services


[re: dect] [link to this post]
 
On ADSLx and FTTC the copper line is fed by the exchange or cabinet MSAN/DSLAM respectively. Not the MDF.

My broadband basic info/help site - www.robertos.me.uk. Domains, site and mail hosting - Tsohost.
Connection - Three 4G, tbb tests 35-45Mpbs down, 9-15 up.
==================================================
If you never think of anything off the wall, you'll never think of anything original.
Standard User witchunt
(experienced) Tue 08-Jan-19 20:19:40
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Re: Openreach monopoly and length of time to repair services


[re: dect] [link to this post]
 
Yes , xDSL will work quite happily without the 50v DC from the BT PSTN. WLR circuits are jumpered through the Dslam so effectively just disconning the PSTN equipment side will have no negative impact on xDSL services.
As Andrew already said those who have PSTN delivered from MPF services won't see any change unless those CPs decide to stop these services. They may see this as a good marketing opportunity.
Standard User dect
(learned) Tue 08-Jan-19 20:32:51
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Re: Openreach monopoly and length of time to repair services


[re: witchunt] [link to this post]
 
Thanks witchunt, had to ask the question as I didn't know if it worked the same way as carrier over voice (COV) where the line voltage is key to the carrier.
Standard User Zarjaz
(eat-sleep-adslguide) Tue 08-Jan-19 21:04:40
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Re: Openreach monopoly and length of time to repair services


[re: MrSaffron] [link to this post]
 
TalkTalk who as of 2018 was planning to carry on as they do now.

.... and will they be obligated to pay more to those who provide and maintain the parts of the network everybody else is moving on from ? *







*I suspect I can already make a guess at the answer

Standard User RobertoS
(elder) Tue 08-Jan-19 21:26:32
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Re: Openreach monopoly and length of time to repair services


[re: dect] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by dect:
Thanks witchunt, ...
for confirming what RobertoS said tongue.

My broadband basic info/help site - www.robertos.me.uk. Domains, site and mail hosting - Tsohost.
Connection - Three 4G, tbb tests 35-45Mpbs down, 9-15 up.
==================================================
If you never think of anything off the wall, you'll never think of anything original.
Standard User Icaras
(experienced) Wed 09-Jan-19 11:12:56
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Re: Openreach monopoly and length of time to repair services


[re: Zarjaz] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by Zarjaz:
TalkTalk who as of 2018 was planning to carry on as they do now.

.... and will they be obligated to pay more to those who provide and maintain the parts of the network everybody else is moving on from ? *







*I suspect I can already make a guess at the answer


But Openreach wonít be decommissioning the E-side anyway. The test heads are at the exchange, so the E-side is needed to run tests on lines to identify faults. However, a lot of testing can be accomplished by the Brandeburg FTTC test system, which does not require exchange test heads.

So if TalkTalk continue with their system does it really cost Openreach much? Poor quality E-sides (though not strictly faulty) are one area of cost, theyíll need swapping occasionally. I suppose youíve also got the exchange jumpering engineers to pay for.

Icaras
Standard User Zarjaz
(eat-sleep-adslguide) Wed 09-Jan-19 11:25:10
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Re: Openreach monopoly and length of time to repair services


[re: Icaras] [link to this post]
 
So for circuits that donít require anything from the exchange bar pairs they will maintain a pair just for testing purposes ???

That seems hugely shortsighted (though sadly not surprising) if you ask me.

Standard User kitcat
(experienced) Wed 09-Jan-19 12:15:36
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Re: Openreach monopoly and length of time to repair services


[re: Zarjaz] [link to this post]
 
Zarjaz

There was some work done in 2013/4 looking at whether test heads in Cabs would cost in, back then it didn't but the economics may change.

The feeling ( not sure it ever got firmer than feeling!) was that you needed a system to routinely / remotely test lines without a truck roll to the cab. This could have been overcome with a modem 'app' but there was intense pressure for any modem to be allowed and this gave OR ( you) no remote vision of the line state. Of course with modem failure the line would have been untestable so "exchange test heads remain" was the answer then.

By 2025 the economics may have changed.

Of course in a vertical monopoly situation this is all easy to solve as the supplier would control the end to end service BUT we will never be back there using copper. Fibre is a different beast until OFCOM mandate unbundled FTTP.
Standard User Icaras
(experienced) Wed 09-Jan-19 16:51:12
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Re: Openreach monopoly and length of time to repair services


[re: Zarjaz] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by Zarjaz:
So for circuits that donít require anything from the exchange bar pairs they will maintain a pair just for testing purposes ???

That seems hugely shortsighted (though sadly not surprising) if you ask me.


On SOGEA lines thatís the case already, and the reason is the one Iíve given.

In reply to a post by kitcat:
Zarjaz

There was some work done in 2013/4 looking at whether test heads in Cabs would cost in, back then it didn't but the economics may change.

The feeling ( not sure it ever got firmer than feeling!) was that you needed a system to routinely / remotely test lines without a truck roll to the cab. This could have been overcome with a modem 'app' but there was intense pressure for any modem to be allowed and this gave OR ( you) no remote vision of the line state. Of course with modem failure the line would have been untestable so "exchange test heads remain" was the answer then.

By 2025 the economics may have changed.

Of course in a vertical monopoly situation this is all easy to solve as the supplier would control the end to end service BUT we will never be back there using copper. Fibre is a different beast until OFCOM mandate unbundled FTTP.


Test heads in cabs sounds very expensive anyway. The FTTC Brandeburg system can and does detect issues like HR faults. It can do so with no E-side.

However proper tests heads are needed to detect earth and battery faults. Openreach does have remote vision of the line at the moment though. All that is required is the OGEA reference for the circuit concerned and a test can be run that will tell you the sync speed, and if thereís a fault on that circuit.

Icaras

Edited by Icaras (Wed 09-Jan-19 16:59:26)

Standard User michaelh
(fountain of knowledge) Thu 10-Jan-19 11:44:51
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Re: Openreach monopoly and length of time to repair services


[re: kitcat] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by kitcat:
Dect /Partial

Main refers to trunk/ junction cables not access. Most of these have now been recovered by BT ( Or thieves) for the copper. All the trunk cables have been Fibre since the late 80s and 99%+ of the junction ones (Exchange -Exchange) only exchange activate sites and occasional resilient routes now use copper cables. (Information from an OFCOM information request to BT that I saw around 2010-12).

Any Paper in the access network from prior to the 80s is likely to have degraded in the damp conditions that are prevalent in the access network. Even where large cables were pressurised to keep water out breakages would have let water ingress over the last 40 years. There may be a little but not lots.

Zargaz may be able to say how often he sees any!


In the 1970's, I worked for a company which manufactured rotary air compressors. BT regularly placed orders for 50 of the smallest models to install to keep ducts pressurised to prevent water ingress.

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