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Standard User smurf46
(committed) Thu 05-Nov-15 11:47:20
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Line Problem


[link to this post]
 
Not sure I can do anything apart from relay my experience.

My line is poor (an underground line just dumped in a 1960s estate and neglected by BT ever since though in fairness there is no access to it. So with the hardware falling to bits after 50 years we have to rely on software to try and compensate). When I investigated routers (FTTC) the Fritz seemed best at coping giving me in excess of 30 Mbps down and 6Mbps up, much better than the BTw forecasts. For the last 5 years the line has been good with minimal latency spikes, even with streaming and minimum latency below 8ms, with negligible packet loss except on the rare occasions when there have been problems on the IDNet network. But in the last few days streaming became near impossible and BTw tester said i should report a fault after the Tap3 test came up with 6 Mbps down and less than 600kbps up. But on reporting a possible fault to IDNet they are only interested in selling me their standard router.

The Fritz has three adjustments 1-4 (between stability and max speed) for SNR, INP and RFI. Any ideas which I should adjust and where to reduce latency and improve streaming? I presume at least the SNR (presently between 6 and 8 at max speed) , and probably the INP both too starting at midway level 2 of the 4? The modem has been restarted (by me, deliberately) a lot over the last few days, for troubleshooting, so I don't want to adjust too often and start DLM kicking off to make matters worse. Otherwise it holds the line well, for months on end. None of the reported stats except for speeds have changed.

I think the Fritz! line management software still improves the line: without it using the OR modem and a standard cable router shows on TBBQM a consistent 40-60% packet loss. With it, the packet loss disappears, minimum latency more than halves (down from around 25ms to below 10ms), but there are still regular latency spikes of up to 120ms+. (Both, when the connection is not in use, with nothing connected other than the router). Uploads improve though with the OR modem. IDNet say my line passes their test and is therefore acceptable and nothing can be done.

I know I'm stuck and changing ISP is my only option. Any cheapn'cheerful could not be any worse, surely. Bit disappointed, though. I hoped for better with their Fibre Pro, which is useless on my glorified ADSL.

I've ordered the latest Fritz in case the router has just clapped out but I can see no evidence of it.

We see things not as they are, but as we are .
- Anais Nin

Edited by smurf46 (Thu 05-Nov-15 12:02:56)

Administrator MrSaffron
(staff) Thu 05-Nov-15 14:35:37
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Re: Line Problem


[re: smurf46] [link to this post]
 
If the issue is the VDSL part of the line then this will remain the same even if you change ISP so if that is the problem it won't help.

Restarting a modem a lot on FTTC increases chances of DLM slowing you down, what are the line stats showing, if its poor copper then you should be seeing poor SNR margins and wildly varying sync speeds, if sync is perfect but getting packet loss and no large amount of errors across the VDSL then you may be looking at a congestion issue, and this generally follow a timed pattern.

The author of the above post is a thinkbroadband staff member. It may not constitute an official statement on behalf of thinkbroadband.
Standard User RobertoS
(elder) Thu 05-Nov-15 14:41:32
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Re: Line Problem


[re: smurf46] [link to this post]
 
Does the phone work?

The indispensable man or woman passes from the scene, and what happens next is more or less the same thing as was happening before.
My broadband basic info/help site - www.robertos.me.uk. Domains, site and mail hosting - Tsohost.
Connection - AAISP Home::1 80/20. Sync 59997/15142kbps @ 600m. - BQM


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Standard User smurf46
(committed) Thu 05-Nov-15 21:29:02
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Re: Line Problem


[re: MrSaffron] [link to this post]
 
From the Fritz! (assuming it's working OK) sync is utterly consistent apart from the sharp (6am drop a couple of days ago when the problems started) one time drop in upload sync from 6Mbps to 600kbps). Zero errors or 1 a day). Prior to then there was no material packet loss or latency spikes ever, for years, even when streaming.

The Quiet Line Test is perfect, connected to the main socket. No issues with using the phone.

Stats from Fritz:
Negotiated Connection Properties
Receive direction /Send direction

Max. DSLAM throughput kbit/s 40000/6000
Min. DSLAM throughput kbit/s 128/0
Attainable throughput kbit/s 40312/660
Current throughput kbit/s 40000/600
Seamless rate adaptation off/off

Latency fast/fast
Impulse noise protection 35.3 /44.3
G.INP on/on

Signal-to-noise ratio dB 8/6
Bitswap on/off
Line attenuation dB 21/22

Profile 17a
G.Vector off/off

Carrier record B43 /B43

Error counter
Seconds with errors (ES)
Unrecoverable errors (CRC)
many Errors (SES) per minute
Last 15 minutes
FRITZ!Box 5 0 0.01 0
Central exchange 0 0 0 0

Using the OR modem and a different cable router for a few hours yesterday afternoon however the upload sync seemed to have increased back up to 6Mbps, with massive packet loss: see the TBBQM link here (the solid red is when the Fritz router was switched off before I swopped routers/modem]:
My Broadband Ping
and after I swopped back to the Fritz todays with just the Fritz here: My Broadband Ping

The practical issue is the impossibility of streaming without constant buffering.

For comparison a busy day with streaming just before it happened is here:
My Broadband Ping

And the following day my line fell off the cliff is here:
My Broadband Ping

The change of ISP I'm thinking of is to A&A because of their line quality monitoring designed to identify and help deal with this sort of problem? IDNet are offering a test router, which I gather is a necessary pre-requisite if BTOR get involved. But they'll charge anyway, unless you have an ISP prepared to argue the toss furiously (hence A&A)? The alternative cheap n'cheerful suggestion was on the basis it's pointless paying IDNet premium price (or even VDSL) for a rubbish line suitable to browsing and basic email only?

We see things not as they are, but as we are .
- Anais Nin

Edited by smurf46 (Thu 05-Nov-15 21:57:01)

Administrator MrSaffron
(staff) Thu 05-Nov-15 21:52:12
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Re: Line Problem


[re: smurf46] [link to this post]
 
The very low upstream sync is a sign of a problem and if another modem gives the sync then suggests either a dying modem in your normal kit, or a change to line operation your normal modem does not like e.g. G.INP switching on

The author of the above post is a thinkbroadband staff member. It may not constitute an official statement on behalf of thinkbroadband.
Standard User smurf46
(committed) Thu 05-Nov-15 22:10:33
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Re: Line Problem


[re: MrSaffron] [link to this post]
 
That's what I thought might be the case, but why does the horrible continuous packet loss then suddenly appear (instead of the latency spikes) when substituting with the OR modem and a different router?

G.INP was switched on a couple of months ago and improved sync, and virtually eliminated reported errors (still the case).

We see things not as they are, but as we are .
- Anais Nin

Edited by smurf46 (Thu 05-Nov-15 22:13:46)

Administrator MrSaffron
(staff) Fri 06-Nov-15 09:30:27
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Re: Line Problem


[re: smurf46] [link to this post]
 
No answer for why the packet loss when back on the OR modem, which router is doing the PPPoE at that point?

What is odd is that the packet loss is happening when there is otherwise good latency performance, usually see a bit more yellow due to variance, i.e. packets corrupted and then retransmitted before the ping timeout.

The author of the above post is a thinkbroadband staff member. It may not constitute an official statement on behalf of thinkbroadband.
Standard User smurf46
(committed) Fri 06-Nov-15 12:57:06
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Re: Line Problem


[re: MrSaffron] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by MrSaffron:
No answer for why the packet loss when back on the OR modem, which router is doing the PPPoE at that point?


A Cisco/Linksys WRT120N. Will try later with a Netgear WNR1000 (supplied by IDNet), but that is presently in use on the backup Fixed Wireless connection.

UPDATE: The good news is I can stream consistently on the Netgear. So many thanks, your theory about the modem going up the spout looks spot on. Pity as it's one month over the 5 year warranty period!

Just one thing occurs to me, could the Fritz QoS significantly be lowering the minimum latency to maintain download speed and could that be messing up the connection and might just adjusting the settings (which? SNR and/or INP, though presumably not RFI??) to improve quality and lower speed make a difference? I'm not sure why it might be doing so now but wasn't before (although there was a recent firmware update, which I think introduced the additional adjustments to INP and RFI). Otherwise I suppose there could be a change in software at the DSLAM or just line deterioration with the onset of colder wet weather.

But the Netgear although with the higher minimum latency has less and lower latency spikes (yellow) and a small (1-3%) packet loss, so much improved on the Linksys.

Many thanks again. As you can tell, it was eating at me!

We see things not as they are, but as we are .
- Anais Nin

Edited by smurf46 (Fri 06-Nov-15 15:00:27)

Administrator MrSaffron
(staff) Fri 06-Nov-15 16:28:15
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Re: Line Problem


[re: smurf46] [link to this post]
 
Lowering latency is not something a setting trying to optimise download speeds would be doing.

QoS should not affect VDSL2 parameters, but if you are using the Fritzbox line quality parameters to try and tweak the VDSL2 then you are into experimental areas as the Openreach DSLAM tends not to tolerate attempts to force stuff on it, i.e. its more locked down the old ADSL2+ kit (which was ran by different people)

The author of the above post is a thinkbroadband staff member. It may not constitute an official statement on behalf of thinkbroadband.
Standard User Al1264
(member) Mon 09-Nov-15 11:09:39
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Re: Line Problem


[re: smurf46] [link to this post]
 
Several Fritz!Box users have reported a significant reduction in upstream sync around the same time over on Plusnet: http://community.plus.net/forum/index.php/topic,1453...
Mine has dropped from 20000 to slightly over 2000.
When I dig out my OR modem (if I can remember where I put it) I'll try using it with the Fritz!Box.
This appears to have happened on both Huawei and ECI cabinets and on more than one firmware version (06.20 and 06.30 at least), not sure if all are the same model of Fritz!Box (mine's a 7390).
Standard User smurf46
(committed) Mon 09-Nov-15 12:57:13
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Re: Line Problem


[re: Al1264] [link to this post]
 
Thanks! Yep, a Fritz! 7390, and a 90% loss of upload speed too. Complete loss of upload tones between the first and second blocks of download tones, leaving just the upload tones before the first block of download tones. 6am, when "it" appeared to happen is consistent with drops due to changes at the DSLAM here. Huawei cabinet, and 06.30 firmware at the Fritz. Should have the ordered 7490 later this week, but with same firmware will probably have the same problem. My main problem seemed to be the huge download latency spikes that accompanied the fall in the upload, in my case.

Might report it to AVM too when I get to try the Fritz! again. I thought they tested the kit with BT (but of course not the other way around), and the 7490 is certainly marketed as compatible with BT FTTC (though that probably means the faceplate and power plug!). If we have to wait for AVM to modify their firmware, we'll be waiting for (almost) ever.

We see things not as they are, but as we are .
- Anais Nin

Edited by smurf46 (Mon 09-Nov-15 13:49:00)

Standard User Al1264
(member) Mon 09-Nov-15 14:46:03
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Re: Line Problem


[re: smurf46] [link to this post]
 
This is really strange, My 7390 has been 'playing nicely' with FTTC for a few years now, no problems with the introduction of G.INP (quite the opposite in fact). I can only assume that something's changed at the cabinet(s) that the 7390 doesn't like (or, more likely, something at the cabinet that doesn't like the 7390!).
So far I think I've only heard of 7390 users with this problem (no confirmed other models yet), I think the 7390 is the only one using the Ikanos/Fusiv chipset so may be limited to that.
Standard User smurf46
(committed) Mon 09-Nov-15 15:40:10
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Re: Line Problem


[re: Al1264] [link to this post]
 
Same here, had the 7390 for 5 years (just out of warranty a few months ago). G.INP improved both my uploads and downloads to as good as they've ever been and virtually eliminated errors, and I've been using the 06.30 firmware for a couple of months with no problem too. Never lost the mid range upload tones before, just did a comparison with the spectrum graphs from 2012/2013. It seems that either my Fritz! modem is on the way out (now seems unlikely as others have the same experience ) or something has changed at the DSLAM.

We see things not as they are, but as we are .
- Anais Nin

Edited by smurf46 (Mon 09-Nov-15 15:42:59)

Standard User freeola
(member) Tue 10-Nov-15 10:11:44
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Re: Line Problem


[re: smurf46] [link to this post]
 
Same here: 7390 since 2011, works fine with g.inp then lost 90% upstream in the last week or so. Running line BTW line tests from our ISP side finds no issues.. I have tried making up a new cable, downgrading the firmware and a few other things but no luck. Hope the issue gets resolved soon.

Freeola
http://freeola.com - Broadband, Hosting & Instant Sites - Support
Standard User smurf46
(committed) Thu 12-Nov-15 18:36:49
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Re: Line Problem


[re: freeola] [link to this post]
 
I can now confirm the upload issue doesn't occur on either of the recent firmwares on the 7490. I presume therefore it is an issue affecting specifically the Ikanos chipset in the 7390.

We see things not as they are, but as we are .
- Anais Nin
Standard User Al1264
(member) Fri 13-Nov-15 11:37:57
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Re: Line Problem


[re: freeola] [link to this post]
 
Hi Freeola,
it is worth submitting a support request to AVM, they have acknowledged mine and asked for further information (DSL report etc. generated by the F!B) which I have submitted. If enough (several) users submit similar reports then the chances of a fix would presumably increase.
Standard User freeola
(member) Fri 13-Nov-15 13:12:18
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Re: Line Problem


[re: Al1264] [link to this post]
 
Hi, I've already submitted a support request, sorry should have mentioned that!

Freeola
http://freeola.com - Broadband, Hosting & Instant Sites - Support
Standard User Al1264
(member) Fri 13-Nov-15 13:43:05
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Re: Line Problem


[re: freeola] [link to this post]
 
Thanks for confirming.
Standard User smurf46
(committed) Fri 27-Nov-15 12:30:14
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Re: Line Problem


[re: freeola] [link to this post]
 
Just wonder if with your ISP connections, your know more about this:
http://www.cerberusnetworks.co.uk/index.php/support-...

I've asked AVM to confirm that the 7390 and 7490 are compatible and support the necessary reporting being required by BT, and that they are obtaining an approval. It looks like the Ikanos, and even Lantiq, chips are frozen out.

But it looks as though Fritz! users are stuffed, unless AVM get their fingers out. The single market (or less, likely, Ofcom) are the only things that may put a spoke in BT's works. But the law never seems to have stopped them before. I suspect reducing costs comes before everything. This is the UK, after all.

We see things not as they are, but as we are .
- Anais Nin

Edited by smurf46 (Fri 27-Nov-15 13:24:51)

Standard User Al1264
(member) Fri 27-Nov-15 14:23:51
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Re: Line Problem


[re: smurf46] [link to this post]
 
Trouble is the difficulty in obtaining any list of devices that have passed BT VDSL MCT Certification, the list in the link above does seem to be out of date.
I found a snippet of information here: https://www.btwholesale.com/assets/documents/Previou... (see page 43).
Lantiq is used in BT's own Home Hub 5 (version A), I think it reasonable to assume that's approved, also in OR's own modem (ECI version) so I can't see them being 'frozen out'.
Standard User freeola
(member) Wed 02-Dec-15 16:52:57
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Re: Line Problem


[re: smurf46] [link to this post]
 
Hi,

I don't really have any other info to add I'm afraid. The list is very short at the moment. I expect we'll have to wait it out until the approved device requirement is ditched, pretty much like with ADSL.

Freeola
http://freeola.com - Broadband, Hosting & Instant Sites - Support
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