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Standard User gary333
(newbie) Sat 26-Jan-19 14:25:15
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4G LTE Router & VDSL


[link to this post]
 
Hi,

I am wanting to utilise a 4G connection and in the future VDSL when it becomes available for my address. At the moment the house is not being lived in and i have access to run cables most places. I have already run CAT6 in to most rooms.

Any ideas how best to do this?

The '3' mast is not in line of sight due to the other houses on the street blocking it.I am thinking that I could for 4G:

1) Put antenna on the side of the house facing direction of the mast / or loft mounted to frame OR,
2) Place some form of 'dongle' in the loft

Then i could run network cables to it and join to a router

Or is it best to get a long antenna cable and feed to loft. I had planned to place VDSL router next to master socket as I have run CAT6 cables from a central switch to it.

I am not sure what equipment would be best, or what design would be best. Do you guys have any ideas?
Standard User AdamInTheSticks
(regular) Sat 26-Jan-19 21:03:13
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Re: 4G LTE Router & VDSL


[re: gary333] [link to this post]
 
Hi,

I use 4G too, and load balance it with my 2.5Mbps ADSL connection, to provide a decent boost.

I have been using a TP-Link Archer MR200 4G router: but have just taken delivery of a Huawei B525 (specifically, the B525s-65a model), and this seems much better than the MR200, with more options and picking up a better signal. In fact, I can now get a decent Three signal on this, although I can only get EE or Vodafone on my old router & on smartphones.

Also, the £20 per month Unlimited Data SIM (SIM-only) is on offer again via Three.co.uk but only for this weekend I think. I have just ordered one, to replace my current EE Data SIM that was really used for testing "proof of concept" purposes (and only has 32Gb data per month).

I'd highly recommend the Huawei B525 router (especially the B525s-65a if you can find it, as it supports more LTE bands that are used in Europe and could be used here [ e.g. 700MHz] - the more commonly available variant is the B525s-23a, which is still perfectly fine, but the 65a version I feel is more future-proofed). I got mine on eBay, so search for "Huawei B525" and get one with included external antennae, they gave an extra bar of signal for me to a full 5 bars on Three! (You have to set the router to use external antennae if they are used, otherwise it defaults to the internal one). Also, you can force the router into "4G only" mode if you like, so that it doesn't fall back to 2G or 3G.

This router has 4 ethernet (RJ45) ports too, plus a telephone port (RJ11) and USB, so is flexible.

I'm so happy as we've been excluded here from any FTTC/FTTP future upgrades so far (I'm in rural Ceredigion, West Wales), and my 2.5Mbps ADSL link is not up to scratch these days - so 4G to the rescue, courtesy of Three! (I never thought I would be able to get a Three signal either, until using the Huawei B525, so different 4G routers can make all the difference!).

EDIT: Oops - I forgot to mention, try the 4G router on its own before investing in an outdoor antenna, you may well get a good enough signal anyway using that.

Kind regards,

Adam. smile

Edited by AdamInTheSticks (Sat 26-Jan-19 21:04:55)

Standard User gary333
(newbie) Sat 26-Jan-19 22:21:48
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Re: 4G LTE Router & VDSL


[re: AdamInTheSticks] [link to this post]
 
Thanks for replying smile

I have been looking at 4G routers and had also came to the conclusion that the B525 was the one to get as hardly any seem to work as modems only. I notice that people mention that not all variants of the B525 have 'bridge mode'. Did you get yours from Eternal Comms?

I was looking at the 23a version as at a glance i couldn't tell / see what the extra £20 got me. Do you know if it's just frequencies that this model covers?

I was then looking at a Draytek Vigor 2862 non wifi version and link the 4G router in bridge mode and then BT wholehome around the house.

I've got an old Netgear Aircard and tried with a 3 PAYG sim and got 7mb downstairs (2 bars) and mid 20's (2-3 bars) upstairs so good point about the antenna as hopefully it will be better than the aircard as this has no external antennas and probably doesn't have the latest bands.

Great to see 4G has worked for you. Hopefully it'll give me at least 30mb/sec as this will tide the family over until BT get around to wiring up the cabinet.

PS. I went for the 3 offer this morning, Been holding out for it to come back and if the quidco works it's a steal.


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Standard User AdamInTheSticks
(regular) Sat 26-Jan-19 23:23:06
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Re: 4G LTE Router & VDSL


[re: gary333] [link to this post]
 
Yes, I got my B525 from "Eternal Comms" (very prompt delivery), they seem to be the only ones that include what I call the "bunny ear" external antennae. Having said that, the built-in internal antennae on that router are pretty good anyway.

The extra £20 for the 65a get you mainly extra LTE bands (frequencies), so the router would work in more locations (in Europe + overseas), plus to my mind is a bit more future-proofed - for example, it includes the 700MHz frequency LTE band, and I've heard that Three have invested in this too (although it could be for future 5G deployments, not sure).

Yes, Eternal Comms advertised the 65a variant as having "Bridge Mode" - but they say the same for the 23a too. The only real difference between the 2 variants of the B525 (that I am aware of) are the extra 4G LTE frequencies on the 65a.

I think that, at the moment, the 23a would be just as good - it's just that I personally felt the 65a was more future-proofed, in case some of the other LTE bands become available here in the UK. But, other than that, I'm sure either variant (e.g. from Eternal Comms) would be fine.

I use the DrayTek Vigor 2860 Vac (the 2862 series is a slightly newer variant of that series, I believe) to do the Load Balancing between ADSL and 4G (I use ethernet + powerline adapters to bring the 4G signal from 4G router upstairs [will try in attic too] downstairs, and connect into WAN2 ethernet port of the DrayTek). Once I get the unlimited Three SIM up & running, assuming it's all ok (good thing there's a 14-day "cooling off" period, just in case!), I'll probably tweak the DrayTek settings to favour the 4G connection for most traffic, leaving the ADSL for some traffic where I'm not bothered about speed, and as a failover / backup link too.

I do have an external antenna: the Poynting 4G-XPOL-A0001 (which is an outdoor omni-directional antenna - I don't have any direct line-of-sight to any cell masts) - but, so far, the router antennae have been good enough to get a decent signal (far better than I can get on any smartphone) - although, once the weather improves in spring (hopefully!), I'll experiment outdoors with the Poynting antenna to see if I can get the maximum possible reception.

Anyway - I'd definitely recommend the Huawei B525 as the best 4G router (in terms of features & value-for-money) that I personally know of at the current time, based on my own experience so far (I know there's a Huawei B618, but that's a lot more expensive, and I don't personally think it would be worth the premium, except in very particular locations maybe).

Good Luck anyway - let us know how you get on!

Kind regards,

Adam. smile
Standard User R0NSKI
(fountain of knowledge) Sun 27-Jan-19 08:41:00
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Re: 4G LTE Router & VDSL


[re: gary333] [link to this post]
 
Be mindful that lofts can get very hot in the summer. An omnidirectional antenna mounted on the highest point, perhaps the chimney stack would possibly get the best signal as you don't have line of sight.

Edited by R0NSKI (Sun 27-Jan-19 08:41:49)

Standard User gary333
(newbie) Sun 27-Jan-19 08:41:58
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Re: 4G LTE Router & VDSL


[re: AdamInTheSticks] [link to this post]
 
Excellent smile

May i just ask you please to check if the bridge mode is present in the settings pages on your router as they sell on Amazon and one of the reviews mention it not being present? Looking on the net it looks like a guy in Poland is modifying the firmware to allow other options (incl. bridge) that Huawei don't enable or normally support. I wonder if Eternal Comms are buying these in from China and overwriting the firmware with his firmware.

On a side note, have you tried the RJ11 input on the router? Do you know if this means a standard phone can be plugged in and use the voice connection or does it require a VOIP provider.

I will certainly feedback about how it goes. The local 3 cell site is 1.1km away (straight line) and apart from a couple of standard houses with tile roofs blocking the path is at a similar height so hopefully all will be well smile

Edited by gary333 (Sun 27-Jan-19 08:44:24)

Standard User gary333
(newbie) Sun 27-Jan-19 08:48:43
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Re: 4G LTE Router & VDSL


[re: R0NSKI] [link to this post]
 
Good point about heat in loft, you are right it gets like hell in there. I was up there this summer pulling wiring and it was torture.

I don't have a chimney but was thinking if the signal wasn't good enough to maybe mount a pole on the side of the house to get me above the neighbours roof. Only concern then i suppose would be cable length as i hear this plays a really big part in how good an external antenna works.

Hopefuly just the basic external antennas will be enough and i can mount in the airing cupboard which has the straightest line of site outside of the loft.
Standard User R0NSKI
(fountain of knowledge) Sun 27-Jan-19 09:44:12
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Re: 4G LTE Router & VDSL


[re: gary333] [link to this post]
 
https://www.specialistantennas.co.uk/news/lte-antenn...

Some useful info on the above site, they imply using different types of cable depending on length.

https://editorsean.com/articles/3g4g-antenna-advice/...

The above site recommends a maximum of 10 meters, before the signal is affected.

Not sure whether you meant putting just the aerials or the modem in the airing cupboard, but wouldn't that also get hot?

Standard User gary333
(newbie) Sun 27-Jan-19 10:11:40
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Re: 4G LTE Router & VDSL


[re: R0NSKI] [link to this post]
 
Thankyou for the links. I will most certainly read through.

The airing cupboard is not used anymore as I have a storage combi boiler so gives me a bit of empty space to place the router in. It's also the main path for all the houses CAT6 and aerials, so if using 4G works I will move the switch to here as I had planned to have this in a seperate porch loft space.

Edited by gary333 (Sun 27-Jan-19 10:13:03)

Standard User R0NSKI
(fountain of knowledge) Sun 27-Jan-19 10:21:28
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Re: 4G LTE Router & VDSL


[re: gary333] [link to this post]
 
We also fitted a combi and did away with the storage tank, but I did fit a small rad in the airing cupboard.

I was also briefly considering moving to 4G as it would save considerable money over what I pay for Vivid 350, although download would be slower upload would be quicker (depending on congestion) https://www.speedtest.net/result/a/4574762663

Having had a read this morning the lack of static IP is a problem for me.

Standard User AdamInTheSticks
(regular) Sun 27-Jan-19 15:01:33
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Re: 4G LTE Router & VDSL


[re: gary333] [link to this post]
 
Hi Gary,

I can confirm that my B525s-65a (as supplied by Eternal Comms) definitely has the Bridge Mode option (under the Settings > Security menu if I recall correctly - but it's definitely there, haven't tested it yet).

As for the RJ11, I too am interested in this. I haven't tried yet - waiting for my Three AYCE SIM to arrive next week before I can have a real play around - but I'm searching the web for info on this.

I did find this answered question on Amazon, which is a bit confusing because Huawei say one thing ("no" - indicating in my mind they intend it for VOIP), and a customer (the top answer of 2 on that page) says "yes" (quote: "This seems to be a WRONG ANSWER from the manufacturer") - here's the link anyway: Amazon Q&A on Huawei B525 RJ11.

I will experiment further with the RJ11 connection & a phone once my Three SIM is installed, will report back next week.

Kind regards,

Adam. smile
Standard User jabuzzard
(member) Sun 27-Jan-19 15:10:53
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Re: 4G LTE Router & VDSL


[re: gary333] [link to this post]
 
If it where me I would use a MikroTik RouterBoard SXT LTE powered using passive 24V PoE from an Edgerouter X SFP or if you prefer to go all MikroTik then a MikroTik RouterBoard hEX PoE.

There are then a range of Ubiquiti and MikroTik WiFi access points that can be powered using 24V passive PoE from either the Edgerouter X SFP or the hEX PoE. Personally I think the Ubiquiti access points are better, but they do cost more.

When you get your VDSL then just add in a VDSL modem to the configuration. For extra bonus points the following device will allow you to power a Huawei EchoLife HG612, Draytek Vigor 130 or Netgear DM200 VDSL modem from the router, so you only need some Cat5e to where ever it's located.

https://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/B00EBCQ5FM
Standard User AdamInTheSticks
(regular) Sun 27-Jan-19 15:13:54
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Re: 4G LTE Router & VDSL


[re: R0NSKI] [link to this post]
 
Hi R0NSKI,

It should be possible to get around the CGNAT issues by using a VPN / L2TP - for example, see this thread:

Getting round CGNAT issues

I've seen other solutions too (some involving Raspberry Pis & Linux), but haven't yet delved into them as yet, as I'm keeping my ADSL2+ connection alongside the 4G - for now at least.

Kind regards,

Adam. smile
Standard User R0NSKI
(fountain of knowledge) Sun 27-Jan-19 15:53:32
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Re: 4G LTE Router & VDSL


[re: AdamInTheSticks] [link to this post]
 
Thanks Adam, I now realise why Weaver wants/needs to do that, thought it was just his obsession with AA wink

The extra cost of paying for the VPN halves the savings, so I will probably leave it for now, but it does give me a bargaining point when I come around to renewing my contract with VM - we don't need the 350 down, but it's the only way to get a decent upload with them. My VDSL speeds were not great, was getting around 47/6Mbps.

I also expect in time when the mobile carriers start using IPV 6 these issues will go away.

Edited by R0NSKI (Sun 27-Jan-19 15:54:28)

Standard User jchamier
(eat-sleep-adslguide) Sun 27-Jan-19 16:35:09
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Re: 4G LTE Router & VDSL


[re: R0NSKI] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by R0NSKI:
I also expect in time when the mobile carriers start using IPV 6 these issues will go away.

I think you are right. My EE iPhone seems to route IPv6 but CGNAT IPv4 - but I haven't tested if there is any inbound port filtering (firewalling) on IPv6 as my home broadband isn't 6 enabled.

plusnet 80/20 (2/jun/14) at 470m - Sync highest was 61/8 now 54/6
20 years of broadband from 1999's ntl:cable modem trial - Live BQM

Standard User R0NSKI
(fountain of knowledge) Sun 27-Jan-19 16:46:05
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Re: 4G LTE Router & VDSL


[re: jchamier] [link to this post]
 
I have no experience of IPv6, so will be something else to get my head around.

If I go to https://test-ipv6.com/ on my phone I score 10/10, although it says my browser (chrome) is avoiding using IPv6 and that I'm using a proxy, it also says my ISP is Google, it's not its Three.

Standard User jchamier
(eat-sleep-adslguide) Sun 27-Jan-19 17:05:48
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Re: 4G LTE Router & VDSL


[re: R0NSKI] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by R0NSKI:
I have no experience of IPv6, so will be something else to get my head around.

If I go to https://test-ipv6.com/ on my phone I score 10/10, although it says my browser (chrome) is avoiding using IPv6 and that I'm using a proxy, it also says my ISP is Google, it's not its Three.


Then at a guess, try another browser. Chrome is doing some proxying!

plusnet 80/20 (2/jun/14) at 470m - Sync highest was 61/8 now 54/6
20 years of broadband from 1999's ntl:cable modem trial - Live BQM

Standard User R0NSKI
(fountain of knowledge) Sun 27-Jan-19 17:18:00
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Re: 4G LTE Router & VDSL


[re: jchamier] [link to this post]
 
Just tried Opera, DuckDuckGo, Firefox and Edge, they all failed 0/10 and can't even access http://ipv6.test-ipv6.com

Standard User jchamier
(eat-sleep-adslguide) Sun 27-Jan-19 17:30:48
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Re: 4G LTE Router & VDSL


[re: R0NSKI] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by R0NSKI:
Just tried Opera, DuckDuckGo, Firefox and Edge, they all failed 0/10 and can't even access http://ipv6.test-ipv6.com

So with Chrome, Google is proxying your connection so you can access IPv6 sites even when either your phone, your network or both isn't currently able to.

plusnet 80/20 (2/jun/14) at 470m - Sync highest was 61/8 now 54/6
20 years of broadband from 1999's ntl:cable modem trial - Live BQM

Standard User gary333
(newbie) Sun 27-Jan-19 17:42:00
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Re: 4G LTE Router & VDSL


[re: jabuzzard] [link to this post]
 
Do you know if the MikroTik is compatible with all current '3' bands?

I notice on their forum someone mentions that the SXT LTE device cannot be used in modem only / bridge mode. Do you know if this is the case still as this would be essential so I can use multiple WANs

Looks a nice bit of kit for the money as if I used one of these it would be on the front of the house so not as ugly as most antennas.
Standard User R0NSKI
(fountain of knowledge) Sun 27-Jan-19 21:10:54
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Re: 4G LTE Router & VDSL


[re: gary333] [link to this post]
 
https://mikrotik.com/product/RBSXTLTE3-7#fndtn-speci...

The specs say it has one 10/100 Ethernet port, so surely it's just a modem. Perhaps that 10/100 port is the reason it only supports up to 100Mbps.

If using with Three I'm not sure it will work, doesn't Three use 800 Mhz frequency? Note, I could well be wrong on this.

Standard User jchamier
(eat-sleep-adslguide) Sun 27-Jan-19 21:27:44
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Re: 4G LTE Router & VDSL


[re: R0NSKI] [link to this post]
 
They all use the following frequencies:

800mhz = Band 20
1800mhz = Band 3
2100mhz = Band 1

Vodafone and EE also have
2600mhz = Band 7

O2 also has
2300mhz = Band 40

To confirm check Ofcom. The networks have permission to run 4G (LTE) on any of the frequencies they own. Future spectrum auctions are due.

plusnet 80/20 (2/jun/14) at 470m - Sync highest was 61/8 now 54/6
20 years of broadband from 1999's ntl:cable modem trial - Live BQM

Standard User R0NSKI
(fountain of knowledge) Sun 27-Jan-19 22:25:13
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Re: 4G LTE Router & VDSL


[re: jchamier] [link to this post]
 
The Specs for the SXT LTE state the following.
LTE FDD bands 3 (1800MHz) / 7 (2600MHz)

So it appears not cover 800Mhz or 2300Mhz

Edited by R0NSKI (Sun 27-Jan-19 22:25:49)

Standard User F9B54DA3BB3C
(newbie) Mon 28-Jan-19 00:57:32
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Re: 4G LTE Router & VDSL


[re: R0NSKI] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by R0NSKI:
The Specs for the SXT LTE state the following.
LTE FDD bands 3 (1800MHz) / 7 (2600MHz)

So it appears not cover 800Mhz or 2300Mhz


That's the old model, Mikrotik naming of these seems rather odd, but that's the old one that had a single 100M port, only worked on 4G / LTE (couldn't fall down to 3G) only worked on bands 3 & 7 and was a category 3 device (100M down, 50M up).

The newer one https://mikrotik.com/product/sxt_lte_kit can fall all the way back to 2G, is an LTE category 4 device (150M down, 50M up) does POE pass through on it's 2nd 100M port (no, I have no idea why they didn't make it a gigabit port) and most importantly, works on LTE bands 1, 2, 3, 7, 8, 20 (800Mhz) 38 & 40 (2300Mhz).

Mikrotik do also make this beast, which the OP may want to consider: https://mikrotik.com/product/lhg_lte_kit
Standard User andynormancx
(learned) Mon 28-Jan-19 10:18:52
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Re: 4G LTE Router & VDSL


[re: gary333] [link to this post]
 
I've got the SXT LTE kit (the newer product), it is my understanding that it can't operate in bridge mode and that it will never be able to.

*this might be incorrect, check the following messages in the thread*

Edited by andynormancx (Mon 28-Jan-19 12:16:25)

Standard User RobertoS
(elder) Mon 28-Jan-19 10:40:04
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Re: 4G LTE Router & VDSL *DELETED* *DELETED*


[re: andynormancx] [link to this post]
 
Post deleted by RobertoS
Standard User RobertoS
(elder) Mon 28-Jan-19 10:42:57
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Re: 4G LTE Router & VDSL


[re: andynormancx] [link to this post]
 
Bridging spanning tree protocol (STP, RSTP), bridge firewall and MAC natting.
Am I misunderstanding that, copied from the OS Features on this page of the RouterOS software manual linked here?

My broadband basic info/help site - www.robertos.me.uk. Domains, site and mail hosting - Tsohost.
Connection - Three 4G, tbb tests normally 35-45Mpbs down, 65Mbps off-peak, 9-24 up.
==================================================
If you never think of anything off the wall, you'll never think of anything original.

Edited by RobertoS (Mon 28-Jan-19 10:49:53)

Standard User onthenet
(member) Mon 28-Jan-19 11:35:34
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Re: 4G LTE Router & VDSL


[re: AdamInTheSticks] [link to this post]
 
CGNAT not an issue on Three if you use 3internet as the APN.

I am using HomeFi router with a DMZ connection to WAN port on my RT-AC87U router.

Port forwarding works fine although I've now moved to OpenVPN due to security issues on some of the IPcameras etc..

Using DDNS to get around Fixed IP issues as IP is refreshed sometime in the early hours every day.

Three 4G 100/30 Mbps
Standard User andynormancx
(learned) Mon 28-Jan-19 12:07:22
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Re: 4G LTE Router & VDSL


[re: RobertoS] [link to this post]
 
RouterOS supports bridging, but only on some of their hardware.
Standard User andynormancx
(learned) Mon 28-Jan-19 12:12:36
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Re: 4G LTE Router & VDSL


[re: andynormancx] [link to this post]
 
They list the support here:

https://wiki.mikrotik.com/wiki/Manual:Peripherals#Ce...

However, reading it again it seems the R11e-LTE (which I believe is the LTE card they use in the SXT LTE kit) is listed as supporting passthru. So I need to do some more investigation as to whether it can be made to work with the SXT LTE kit or not.
Standard User andynormancx
(learned) Mon 28-Jan-19 12:29:59
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Re: 4G LTE Router & VDSL


[re: andynormancx] [link to this post]
 
Just checked my SXT LTE kit interface setup, it definitely shows passthrough (bridging) as an option. So I expect I was wrong...

(though I haven't actually tested it works, I don't really need it at the moment, I'm happy with the LTE routing doing all my NAT and firewalling at the moment)

https://www.dropbox.com/s/s77nfbrlyfrv7sr/Screenshot...

Edited by andynormancx (Mon 28-Jan-19 12:31:01)

Standard User RobertoS
(elder) Mon 28-Jan-19 12:31:47
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Re: 4G LTE Router & VDSL


[re: andynormancx] [link to this post]
 
If you note - I got it from the pages for the product in question. It would be remarkable if that page linked to a software manual that was not applicable. There would at the very least be an exclusion either on the product pages or in that manual.

Otherwise none of their documentation could be trusted about anything.

My broadband basic info/help site - www.robertos.me.uk. Domains, site and mail hosting - Tsohost.
Connection - Three 4G, tbb tests normally 35-45Mpbs down, 65Mbps off-peak, 9-24 up.
==================================================
If you never think of anything off the wall, you'll never think of anything original.
Standard User andynormancx
(regular) Mon 28-Jan-19 12:46:32
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Re: 4G LTE Router & VDSL


[re: RobertoS] [link to this post]
 
You linked to two things, the first being the spec sheet for the product in question, which doesn't mention bridging.

The second was the generic manual for all their many dozens of products that use RouterOS. This documentation covers for example their older SXT LTE, which very definitely doesn't support bridging.

So no, they don't call out specific products in that manual to say which ones do and don't support bridging (but they do on the other page I linked to).

The manual in question covers loads of functionality that isn't present on the SXT LTE kit, for example all of the wifi functionality covered in the manual.

On the page in the manual on LTE bridging/passthrough they say "some LTE interfaces support LTE Passthrough feature".

https://wiki.mikrotik.com/wiki/Manual:Interface/LTE

But, I was wrong, the SXT LTE kit (as opposed to the older SXT LTE) does look like it supports bridging.

Edited by andynormancx (Mon 28-Jan-19 12:48:38)

Standard User RobertoS
(elder) Mon 28-Jan-19 12:50:10
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Re: 4G LTE Router & VDSL


[re: andynormancx] [link to this post]
 
I linked to three things. The one inside the quote, and two later. It is the final one that links to the manual on the product page itself. Scroll down it to several links.

So now you've been wrong twice on this issue wink.

Edit: Actually it seems I have managed to make both the last two go to the same place. Both clearly to the "Support & Downloads" tab of the current product. One was meant to be the Specification tab.

My broadband basic info/help site - www.robertos.me.uk. Domains, site and mail hosting - Tsohost.
Connection - Three 4G, tbb tests normally 35-45Mpbs down, 65Mbps off-peak, 9-24 up.
==================================================
If you never think of anything off the wall, you'll never think of anything original.

Edited by RobertoS (Mon 28-Jan-19 12:59:33)

Standard User gary333
(newbie) Tue 29-Jan-19 20:25:23
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Re: 4G LTE Router & VDSL


[re: AdamInTheSticks] [link to this post]
 
Sim card arrived and it's not looking great (although 3 do say there is a network issue) as only getting average of 12mb/se (low of 1mb/sec & max of 20mb/sec)

Singal is quite high via temporary hotspot (-92db / -8db) so was hoping for better. Phone shows network is band 20 (so 800mhz).

Am i right to assume band 20 on '3' has little bandwidth?
Standard User jchamier
(eat-sleep-adslguide) Tue 29-Jan-19 20:41:50
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Re: 4G LTE Router & VDSL


[re: gary333] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by gary333:
Am i right to assume band 20 on '3' has little bandwidth?

Correct only 5mhz. (Same as EE).

You really want to pick up band 3 / 1800mhz where 3 have 15mhz or band 1 (2100mhz) which Three are gradually switching from 3G to 4G

plusnet 80/20 (2/jun/14) at 470m - Sync highest was 61/8 now 54/6
20 years of broadband from 1999's ntl:cable modem trial - Live BQM

Standard User gary333
(newbie) Tue 29-Jan-19 21:08:49
Print Post

Re: 4G LTE Router & VDSL


[re: jchamier] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by jchamier:
In reply to a post by gary333:
Am i right to assume band 20 on '3' has little bandwidth?

Correct only 5mhz. (Same as EE).

You really want to pick up band 3 / 1800mhz where 3 have 15mhz or band 1 (2100mhz) which Three are gradually switching from 3G to 4G


When i first inserted the sim I did get band 3. It might be the network trouble 3 were referring to however it flicked to band 20 after about 5 minutes. Signal on band 3 was still quite good (around -98db)
Standard User jchamier
(eat-sleep-adslguide) Tue 29-Jan-19 22:20:54
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Re: 4G LTE Router & VDSL


[re: gary333] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by gary333:
When i first inserted the sim I did get band 3. It might be the network trouble 3 were referring to however it flicked to band 20 after about 5 minutes. Signal on band 3 was still quite good (around -98db)

That is promising ; if the mast knows you can receive band 3 it will push you back from band 20 - unless there is a technical fault! smile

plusnet 80/20 (2/jun/14) at 470m - Sync highest was 61/8 now 54/6
20 years of broadband from 1999's ntl:cable modem trial - Live BQM

Standard User andynormancx
(regular) Wed 30-Jan-19 08:40:07
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Re: 4G LTE Router & VDSL


[re: gary333] [link to this post]
 
I don't think I'd count -98dB as "quite good" wink

Using my externally mounted (about 5 metres up) Mikrotik SXT LTE kit I'm getting -80dB with -20dB SINR, that gets me 70-80 down and 30 up on band 20.

Correction: I meant to say band 3

With the Mikrotik indoors behind a window it drops to -90bB/-8bB/40/15.

However I am lucky with the mast only 1,000 metres away with mostly just a few trees and hedges between me and it.

Edited by andynormancx (Wed 30-Jan-19 14:19:26)

Standard User jchamier
(eat-sleep-adslguide) Wed 30-Jan-19 12:52:09
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Re: 4G LTE Router & VDSL


[re: andynormancx] [link to this post]
 
If you're getting speeds of 70-80mbps on Band 20 (with 5mhz) then you've probably got all the capacity. Possible if you are very remote, but as Band 20 travels a long way, its less likely than happening with the other bands.

I only get 40mbps indoors from my local EE mast in the middle of a town!

plusnet 80/20 (2/jun/14) at 470m - Sync highest was 61/8 now 54/6
20 years of broadband from 1999's ntl:cable modem trial - Live BQM

Standard User andynormancx
(regular) Wed 30-Jan-19 14:18:04
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Re: 4G LTE Router & VDSL


[re: jchamier] [link to this post]
 
Sorry, I meant band 3 (15MHz)
Standard User gary333
(newbie) Wed 30-Jan-19 19:30:46
Print Post

Re: 4G LTE Router & VDSL


[re: andynormancx] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by andynormancx:
I don't think I'd count -98dB as "quite good" wink

Using my externally mounted (about 5 metres up) Mikrotik SXT LTE kit I'm getting -80dB with -20dB SINR, that gets me 70-80 down and 30 up on band 20.

Correction: I meant to say band 3

With the Mikrotik indoors behind a window it drops to -90bB/-8bB/40/15.

However I am lucky with the mast only 1,000 metres away with mostly just a few trees and hedges between me and it.


The power level you get shows you have a great line of sight as from what I can see if you stood in front of the cell site you would expect -78db.

From my other house where I was testing the signal has quite a few houses in the way and we are higher up than the mast is.

The -98db rating gave me 4 bars and was listed as 'quite good' by the device itself. I'm around 1,250m with that reading. Only problem was the ping was around 50ms. This appears to give a noticeable delay when loading web pages. Not sure if this will end up being a solution unless three fix the network.

Tried the sim at work, and the service was shocking. My house, and both my work addresses (some 40 miles apart) are all showing as network issues on '3' website.
Standard User jchamier
(eat-sleep-adslguide) Wed 30-Jan-19 19:31:09
Print Post

Re: 4G LTE Router & VDSL


[re: andynormancx] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by andynormancx:
Sorry, I meant band 3 (15MHz)
That makes more sense for the speeds you're getting.

plusnet 80/20 (2/jun/14) at 470m - Sync highest was 61/8 now 54/6
20 years of broadband from 1999's ntl:cable modem trial - Live BQM

Standard User jchamier
(eat-sleep-adslguide) Wed 30-Jan-19 19:32:13
Print Post

Re: 4G LTE Router & VDSL


[re: gary333] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by gary333:
Tried the sim at work, and the service was shocking. My house, and both my work addresses (some 40 miles apart) are all showing as network issues on '3' website.
As they say on TV "other networks are available" - worth trying PAYG SIMs from EE, Voda and O2 to see if its worth trying any of their higher data allowance products.

plusnet 80/20 (2/jun/14) at 470m - Sync highest was 61/8 now 54/6
20 years of broadband from 1999's ntl:cable modem trial - Live BQM

Standard User andynormancx
(regular) Thu 31-Jan-19 09:51:34
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Re: 4G LTE Router & VDSL


[re: gary333] [link to this post]
 
50ms ping is what I get as well. It appears when I use the three.co.uk APN it drops to 40ms, but is at 50ms on 3internet.

I can't say I'm noticing a delay on loading pages, though I might move my local DNS server to use my backup FTTC line for lookups wink

The only real issue I'm having with my Three connection is the slow ramp up of bandwidth on streams.

You start a high quality stream (Netflix, YouTube, iPlayer) and it takes a minute or so before the player works out it has enough bandwidth to switch to the HD/UHD version of the stream. I think this is due to the LTE layer, I reckon it takes a few seconds before it decides a connection is wanting lots of bandwidth and there is a delay as it spools up extra timeslots/frequencies or however it works...

Less latency would be nice, but luckily I'm not really into online gaming and I can cope with 50ms when it comes to occasional ssh sessions.
Standard User andynormancx
(regular) Thu 31-Jan-19 10:29:24
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Re: 4G LTE Router & VDSL


[re: gary333] [link to this post]
 
I keep meaning to go and sit near the mast with my phone to check the max signal that is achievable.

I've just bought another LTE router with external antenna connectors, mainly as a spare for if the Mikrotik ever dies, but also to see if I can get any more signal quality with external antennas. Not that I really need any more, 70-80Mb/s is fine (much, much better than I ever got with two expensive bonded FTTC lines).
Standard User gary333
(newbie) Thu 31-Jan-19 16:50:47
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Re: 4G LTE Router & VDSL


[re: andynormancx] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by andynormancx:
I keep meaning to go and sit near the mast with my phone to check the max signal that is achievable.

I've just bought another LTE router with external antenna connectors, mainly as a spare for if the Mikrotik ever dies, but also to see if I can get any more signal quality with external antennas. Not that I really need any more, 70-80Mb/s is fine (much, much better than I ever got with two expensive bonded FTTC lines).


I'll try that too on my way home. The mast is on a Water Tower with the antennas strapped to the side and report back. I was stuck in traffic this morning and checked power and it was getting -90db at around 150m away however I was in the car so i'll get out this time.
Standard User andynormancx
(regular) Thu 31-Jan-19 21:19:00
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Re: 4G LTE Router & VDSL


[re: gary333] [link to this post]
 
I did a quick test this evening, 50 metres away from the mast (and 13 metres below the antenna). On my iPhone I got -76 RSRP/25 SINR, which gave me 96 up and 45 down.

1km away on the Mikrotik I get between -81 and -79, with SINR varying a lot between 15 and 21.

So I reckon I do have some room for improvement yet, with some directional external antennas. Whether I can be bothered with the extra effort is another question...
Standard User Rolandrat
(committed) Thu 31-Jan-19 21:28:27
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Re: 4G LTE Router & VDSL


[re: andynormancx] [link to this post]
 
Are you aware that the Mikrotik has a 9dBi 60 degree antenna built into it and unlike an external antenna to a internal 4G router there is no signal loss for cables.
I messed about with an external antenna to 4G router and the SXE LTE Kit, the SXE performed better by miles for me, it wasnt very scientific but the Mikrotik is the one I made the effort to install outside properly.
Standard User andynormancx
(regular) Thu 31-Jan-19 22:03:19
Print Post

Re: 4G LTE Router & VDSL


[re: Rolandrat] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by Rolandrat:
Are you aware that the Mikrotik has a 9dBi 60 degree antenna built into it and unlike an external antenna to a internal 4G router there is no signal loss for cables.


I am, though on band 3 the gain is a bit less at 7dBi.

There are yagi antennae that will theoretically give me ~17dBi of gain, without being stupidly hard to point (35 degree).

In the place I can mount the antennae and router I can get the cable length probably as low as 15cm. So I don't think I'll have a lot of line loss to deal with.

In reply to a post by Rolandrat:
I messed about with an external antenna to 4G router and the SXE LTE Kit, the SXE performed better by miles for me, it wasnt very scientific but the Mikrotik is the one I made the effort to install outside properly.


The Huawei that I've picked up also has a better category of LTE modem than the SXE LTE Kit, whether that will make any different or not I don't know.

The likelihood is that I'll never get around to it, especially as the yagis I'd need seem to be hard to buy in the UK (more popular in the US, Australia and South Africa for obvious reasons), so I'd probably end up having to build my own.

http://bcbj.org/antennae/lte_yagi_diy.htm

I've never built a yagi before, though I have built a couple of antennae for VHF frequencies, which worked out ok.
Standard User Rolandrat
(committed) Thu 31-Jan-19 22:11:35
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Re: 4G LTE Router & VDSL


[re: andynormancx] [link to this post]
 
I currently as well as the external SXE LTE I also have one internal pointing out through a window (havent had the balls to drill more holes and stick another one on outside of house, the good lady will kill me as she already asked "what the hell is that") as I have 2 x 3 mobile connections for redundancy and load balancing.
I also have a CAT6 Huawei E5186 with small antenna and using it in exactly the same place the SXE is again loads better, so I dont think a more modern chipset will make much difference, not for me anyway.
Standard User andynormancx
(regular) Thu 31-Jan-19 22:46:46
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Re: 4G LTE Router & VDSL


[re: andynormancx] [link to this post]
 
So...

Really good high gain 1,800MHz yagis seem to be in short supply here, but slightly lower gain ones (and I'm guessing the design frequency is ~2,000Mhz, not 1,800) are available cheaply on ebay.

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/302562209822
Standard User andynormancx
(regular) Thu 31-Jan-19 22:49:15
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Re: 4G LTE Router & VDSL


[re: andynormancx] [link to this post]
 
And ones with SMA connectors wink

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/WCDMA-3G-1800-2100MHz-Out...
Standard User jabuzzard
(member) Thu 31-Jan-19 23:31:19
Print Post

Re: 4G LTE Router & VDSL


[re: Rolandrat] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by Rolandrat:
I messed about with an external antenna to 4G router and the SXE LTE Kit, the SXE performed better by miles for me, it wasnt very scientific but the Mikrotik is the one I made the effort to install outside properly.


That IMHO is the trick, if you are using the Mikrotik SXE LTE Kit indoors then you are doing it all wrong. The idea is it can go outside and be powered using PoE.

I would also note that if you look on the Mikrotik website for the SXE LTE Kit on the test results page it has performance figures for bridging mode, so it would certainly seem to do it.

https://mikrotik.com/product/sxt_lte_kit#fndtn-testr...

Those results would also suggest that having the SXE LTE kit do routing and NAT is probably not the best idea, and you probably want it in bridging mode with something else doing NAT/routing.

Of course if 9dBi is not enough you could switch to the Mikrotik LHG LTE kit which has a built in 17dBi parabolic antenna for only an extra £30. Got to beat messing about with an external antenna.
Standard User Rolandrat
(committed) Fri 01-Feb-19 07:01:59
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Re: 4G LTE Router & VDSL


[re: andynormancx] [link to this post]
 
I use Untangle for routing and all its multi wan/security features.
Standard User andynormancx
(regular) Fri 01-Feb-19 12:06:25
Print Post

Re: 4G LTE Router & VDSL


[re: andynormancx] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by andynormancx:
50ms ping is what I get as well. It appears when I use the three.co.uk APN it drops to 40ms, but is at 50ms on 3internet.


Though something very odd happened with my latency. I'm doing bandwidth and latency monitoring, using the Speedtest.net command line tester, on my Linux router.

That has been averaging 50ms fairly consistently. At 10:30 on the 28th Jan it dropped to 40ms and had stayed there since.

10:30 on the 28th just happens to be the exact time I added my Three connection to the BQM monitor on Thinkbroadband.

Could just be a coincidence of course
Standard User onthenet
(member) Fri 01-Feb-19 13:40:29
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Re: 4G LTE Router & VDSL


[re: andynormancx] [link to this post]
 
With a Poynting 4G-XPOL-A0001 hanging in the roof space connected to a Huawei B310s (HomeFi router) my figures are

RSRQ -3db
RSRP -86dBm
SINR 26dB
RSSI -63dB

I am 1 Mile from the mast, clear line of sight over fields. 100Mbps down 30Mbps up

Three 4G 100/30 Mbps
Standard User TechServ
(newbie) Fri 01-Feb-19 15:18:08
Print Post

Re: 4G LTE Router & VDSL


[re: andynormancx] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by andynormancx:
So...

Really good high gain 1,800MHz yagis seem to be in short supply here, but slightly lower gain ones (and I'm guessing the design frequency is ~2,000Mhz, not 1,800) are available cheaply on ebay.

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/302562209822


You really dont want high gain yagi antennas for LTE connections - unless you are going to bother to fabricate a suitable mount to arrange them as Cross Polarised. Even then you will struggle to match the performance of a well designed Cross Polarised MiMo
antenna.

Remember gain isnt everything - and too much gain will cause more issues than it solves especially with LTE / 4G.
Standard User TechServ
(newbie) Fri 01-Feb-19 15:36:52
Print Post

Re: 4G LTE Router & VDSL


[re: jabuzzard] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by jabuzzard:
Of course if 9dBi is not enough you could switch to the Mikrotik LHG LTE kit which has a built in 17dBi parabolic antenna for only an extra £30. Got to beat messing about with an external antenna.


Actually the LHG only provides 17dBi at 1 frequency (Band 7) at Band 3 it is closer to a claimed 15dBi (and is very variable in real world testing) while at Band 20 it is around 5dBi

Excessively high gain will cause issues with airtime sharing at the mast with other users, so what you may gain in terms of improved RSRP you will lose in performance terms when the mast is under load.

Also don't use RSSI as any marker with 4G it isnt relevant - RSRP is the key metric followed by SINR which will never be static as it is relative to RSRQ which is realtime dependant on user and loading on the cell.

As you cant change your orientation to the mast sector antenna much (unless you have a big site) you can only aim for a balanced connection. Improving SINR will generally gain you increase in bandwidth, but higher gain will not deliver that alone.

These are the metric indicators you need to look at

https://forms.na1.netsuite.com/core/media/media.nl?i...

Bear in mind that for 4G Home - EE use 5dBi at 1800MHz only - for good reason - it ensures uniform performance for all subscribers
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